7.62x39 was going to be my bullet of choice. 10 years or so of depression was enough. Until I saw my 3 year old daughter down the hall while I was heading to the closet to get the rifle. In that moment, I chose to endure the pain for her. Not that I didn't think about it again, many times, over the years.
A friend happened to call a few days later. He convinced me to schedule a doctor's appointment that day. Tip: The receptionist will find a slot the same day when you tell them you had to give your guns to a friend just in case. Be honest with them.
Sleep, light, medication,therapy, nutrition, hydration, friends you can call. Figuring it all out can be complex. Getting help is vital so keep looking until you find the help. Finding the right therapist may take a while.
It took me almost 10 years before I stopped having suicidal thoughts after my near miss. Another 5 years before I figured out one of the main reasons for what I was experiencing. Nearly 25 years total of the pain of depression because I figured I could handle it myself.
We really need to get rid of stigma of depression and mental illnesses in general. So people can actually get the treatment, not hide how they feel because what others might think.
The stigma of depression and mental illness in society will never abate in a society with a labor surplus, especially one where employers subsidize health care.
Health conditions of all kinds (depression, pregnancy, obesity, etc.) are just another filter condition like bad credit, arrest records, substandard education, etc. that are used to winnow the labor force.
Only in the tech bubble (in the sense of a world temporarily apart) where skilled labor is, at the moment, relatively scarce, are these factors overlooked when hiring for "career" positions.
This sucks, and I hate it, but I'm not blind to reality. In a world where most people work for a living, and where there are fewer jobs than people, having anything "wrong" with oneself is a huge liability.
One of the things that adds to my depression is that the therapist was also charging $250/hour and I couldnt afford to continue with her.
So I had to stop - because I have three children and I need to cover the expenses for them as a priority. They are the only thing that keeps me here, as I too had to do what you did.
Not being there will also be a weight on them. Being there is the better choice.
Explain, if they're old enough. Find help (online or offline) in finding out at what you can explain to them. Find help to get rid of your stories without having to tell them to your kids if you don't need that.
Being afraid comes with the territory I guess. Acknowledge that. Accept it. Explain it. Explain that you cannot always acknowledge or accept it. Accept that you cannot always explain it.
Do your best, how messy it is.
And maybe you know all this, maybe you do all this. I don't know you, don't know your story. But it is as it is. You cannot give them another father. You probably cannot change how you feel. So they have to live with it, as you, and find a way.
Thanks for your strength. I've had too many people close to me deny it, it can feel unbearable. One has come around I think but they we're not close enough for me to know certainly. That seems bonkers considering the relation is one of the closest possible.
The other goes back and forth. Maddening reasons and ideas to justify going on and off.
I'm glad you've overcome this. For my part it's been 30 years, probably 40 if my childhood memories make any sense. I've started to notice that my daughters switch from laughter to sadness when their gaze reaches me. I'm not sure staying around is helping them.
I keep checking back on this post because the discussion here is some of the most real stuff I've read on HN. Thank you for spurring that. The world, and most people's lives are a messy thing. But I can assure you your daughters will be irreparably worse-off if you were to end your life. That you worry about what is best for them tells me that you care deeply for them, as I'm sure they care about you. Please don't break that connection. If you ever need someone to talk to, I'd absolutely recommend a professional over what I'd be able to provide, but I'd be happy to listen or talk if you'd rather speak with a stranger. My contact info is in my profile.
Some improvement did come with age. Perspective is amazingly helpful.
Along the way though I was able to find things that helped very noticeably. Some were physical, some were mind related, some were social, etc...
Bits and pieces that when put together did make a difference. Learning to take care of myself and remember to continue doing those things that were healthy for me has probably been a benefit of age as well.
The pieces of my puzzle: Therapy, hypnotherapy, dance (Argentine Tango), exercise, sleep, meditation, hydration, light levels, type of work, healthy relationships.
This was huge:
Someone pointed out how I loved myself enough to be willing to destroy myself with such violence. Quite a shift in perspective! The realization of that love for self helped me switch to an amazingly hopeful resourceful place. The shift is difficult to describe though very real for me.
I'm fairly sure I'm depressed, but I feel like I have to hide it in order to protect my mom, who is also depressed. She's been dealing with her depression for about five years now, and thanks to software I've been able to support our family for the past three years (I'm 22), which is fantastic for her and my siblings, but at the same time it makes me feel like I have to be an emotional/financial anchor for the family. Because of all this I've gotten very good at suppressing most of my emotions. I have a hard time maintaining my friendships and meeting new people, and I can't help but resent my own family for something that is really not their fault. They in turn resent me for being cold and distant.
Anyway, sorry for ranting, the article just made me feel like sharing this, for a change.
I'm curious and I think others might be as well. How does one possibly go about finding a therapist who is a good fit? It seems like searching for a needle in a haystack -- akin to finding a good life partner which requires lots of trial and error.
I think for a lot of people it's trial and error. When I was researching, I went through a list of local therapists, reading their descriptions and website, and eventually narrowed the list down to 3-4. I then set up a session with all of them, and then made my decision. Worked for me.
See a professional as soon as possible. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you can't hide it from your mom, then don't. Your life and health are too important. And anyway, seeking help doesn't mean you stop being a source of support for others -- if anything, it'll make you better support for them.
Thanks for sharing. As others have said, please consider getting help; the sooner, the better. Depression has a way of becoming more entrenched, stubborn and isolating over time.
It also changes your outlook on things, such that it becomes more challenging to remember which is you and which is the disease as it continues to merge itself into your being (so to speak).
Don't take it as a given that revealing your own depression to your mother will make her life harder. She may welcome the chance to help you and she may help herself in the process.
I'm not saying it is a sure thing - just don't rule it out
Don't be sorry, talking about it is exactly what you should be doing. If you're not comfortable venting to someone in person, make more use of online forums or try a journal. I also suggest meditation and books about mindfulness.
Is this only text or do they also offer audio/video? Text to me just seems like it would take a very long time to accomplish something, at least at the start.
You can send whatever you want, my therapist and I do little video snips often. I like txt too though, sometimes I'm just doing nothing thinking and I write my thoughts down and send them to him, it's good.
In your profile, it says that you're a student. You could check whether your school has a student-assistance program.
There are professionals who see this stuff every day who can help you.
There's no shame in this. There could be any number of causes, and some of them are actually easy to fix. That said, many are not but it's good that you're talking to people.
If you have health insurance, definitely try to get some treatment. Pills and therapists aren't perfect, and they aren't for everyone, but they can work. And they can be kept secret. Beyond that, look at acquiring skills and habits to be able to manage your depression, drugs will only give you the opportunity to build those skills easier, they won't make everything magically better forever. I'd highly suggest looking at cognitive behavioral therapy (basically developing habits and patterns that are healthier) and meditation/mindfulness, they are amazingly effective in a lot of cases.
I went through the same. I didn't look for help initially because I thought everything was under control and I didn't see what was going on the same way you see now. It didn't take long until I started having panick attacks and my only choice was to look for help.
Therapy helps tremendously, so please give it a try as soon as you can.
All I can say is you're not alone. I've been diagnosed with major depressive disorder, have 4 kids (youngest is 7months) and I'm going through therapy and working on medication. It's aggravating because for me the medication takes time to make a difference. Also I'm working on 2 engineering jobs to make ends meet.
The thing that has helped is opening up to a select few of friends. I am not the kind of person to open up emotionally but realized that if I want my kids to have a healthy dad, I have to do something different. But the older kids have noticed my sadness.
My therapist told me something that helped and that is I should strive for progress and not perfection. A goal oriented person is striving for perfection but that's an impossible goal when going through depression.
The fog from depression initially made me believe I had no friends. But when I took time to observe my life and journal, I realized there were a few friends for which I eventually opened up to. It helps to have a support system in addition to any doctors you see.
> The fog from depression initially made me believe I had no friends.
That fog is the hardest thing to deal with. I'm currently in a good spot, emotionally. In my case depression is a consequence of anxiety. Managing that better has kept me emotionally healthy.
But when I've been depressed I'd forget that I've had friends, good friends, for years that I could talk to and who would be there for me. It's not easy, but taking that step back to really examine your situation (as you've done) was the part that has turned me back from the brink several times in my life.
Not sure why you're being downvoted (other than perhaps playing internet doctor). One of the first things a competent medical professional will do is to evaluate where you're at, which includes checking thyroid levels. That said, don't listen to internet doctors; go see a real one and let them do their job... which will likely include the aforementioned check.
Depression is in fact a well-known symptom of an underactive thyroid [1].
Bear in mind that the reference range doctors use to determine whether your thyroid is healthy is considered too wide by some experts [2] - this will result in false negatives.
The treatment for thyroid disease and resultant thyroid underactivity is (synthetic) replacement thyroid hormone. I'd rather take a replacement hormone than a pharmaceutical drug with its side-effects. Not to mention hypothyroidism is a risk factor for heart disease and more, so better to address it than treat individual symptoms.
Exactly; when work gets more demanding I unintentionally stop working out and eat fast food and I notice a significant increase in depression. I actually need to take more effort to work out, eat healthy when work is more demanding (or kids just being kids) just to keep my head above water. Easier said than done thus therapy helps as a lifeline.
I'm like her dad. Reading her story may have altered my path, for the sake of my daughters, for a bit longer, I guess.
I design software, I code, test and deploy. They think my work is good. It doesn't matter. I work until I'm tired and then I sleep. I hide my tears from my family. There's no joy in any of these projects, and I've lost all interest in my past side projects. I work so much I barely see my daughters before they go to sleep. If I stop working we'll be bankrupt within months.
I'm going to post here under my real nick and hope you read my comments:
I was in a depressive state for close to twenty years. The loss of my mother at 10 put me there and instead of getting better I settled into my depression for the next twenty.
Twenty years.
I was irritable and emotional. I had few friends and I made the friends I did have pay for their mistake of being my friend. I made bad decisions and burned bridges. I drank too much. I had zero good romantic relationships and was getting worse. My career, the one good thing in my life, had stagnated. Nobody wants to work with an asshole.
SO one day, after breaking up with a girl, I finally decided to get help. I cried like a baby in the office of a therapist. She got me on medication and in four weeks I was a different person. I combined that drug therapy with talk therapy and completely turned my life around. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest it's similar to hearing music for the first time or seeing color. I was able to smile and find joy in the world again. By almost every measure, my life improved. Things have only gotten better since then.
I want you to seek help. Make use of the opportunity to completely change the trajectory of your life by getting out of the mindset you're currently in. If you need medication, take it. If you don't, invest time in talk therapy. Find a therapist you trust and who is competent. If you don't like the one you get, find another. DO THE WORK.
Depression is like cancer of the mind. If you ignore it, it'll consume you until there is nothing left. Don't ignore it.
My current happiness is only tempered by the knowledge that I lost so much along the way by ignoring my symptoms. Don't be that guy. We have a small amount of time on this rock. Make it worth your while.
Thank you. It's been 40 years. When I was a teenager I didn't think I'd last that long. I will seek a therapist tomorrow. I don't quite understand how I can remain productive at work and everything else is a vast sea of sadness and anger.
You're free to reach out to me if you'd like to talk. I'm not a therapist but I might be able to provide some encouragement and advice on finding a path to wellness.
I had a very strong opinion about psychiatric drugs: I hated the idea of them.
But when you are desperate, you'll try anything. And I was desperate.
SO I made a bargain with myself: drugs for a maximum one year. No matter what happened, I'd only try the drugs for one year.
After one year I didn't need them any longer. I was able to understand when I was entering a depressed state and adjust. Knowing what "good" felt like helped me understand what
bad" felt like.
That's the bit that causes the growth and why you need to combine talk therapy with drug therapy.
I got lucky and found the right combo for me; someone else might have to try a few combinations to find what works for them.
I just started Zoloft, 10mg, 4 months ago. I was desperate, I just wanted to be happy for Christmas for once, for my children's sake and it brought me back.
(brought me back: ability to smile and laugh. Ability to find amusement watching television [even my wife's shows], ability to think at work. No longer staring out my window wishing everything would end)
I have not put in the work to find a talk therapist, I really think I'm ready to do that now, I'm going to follow up on Monday and find someone.
Here is the thing: the drugs are like a cast or a crutch. They help you heal.
The talk therapy is like learning how to get strong so you don't break bones or lose balance and fall.
They go together. You can do talk therapy without the drugs but that didn't work for me. The drugs got me into the right frame of mind to understand and process emotions. I could be mindful and see when I was irritated because depression was creeping back in.
I don't think depression is something you completely cure. I think it's something you manage your way out of and keep at bay with constant effort. Mental hygiene practiced with a professional goes a long way towards making that happen.
Look, I discussed some really gut-wrenching things with my therapist. I dug deep. I did the hard work. It wasn't fun.
But today I'm able to live without drugs or weekly visits to a therapist. I'm effectively in remission. And let me tell you man: I'm HAPPY.
The first thing I always recommend: start doing physical activity. It doesn't need to be much; 30 minutes a day (start with less if needed). The difference is significant. Give it a try, please. Start tomorrow. Go out for a run for a bit. I have been (and still am) in the same position as you, although for different reasons, and sport makes a big difference. Wish you the best and be strong. Your daughters admire you and you will get out of this. It's easier said than done, but take my word.
Low testosterone and other related things can give a man depression. Way too many intelligent people are depressed. I think one of the major reasons is the lack of physical activity typically associated with engineering fields.
Are you sure they don't see it? And if they see it, do they understand it for what it is, or do they misinterpret it?
Make an appointment on Monday 3/28 with your doctor, or with an EAP service if that's available to you, or county health, etc. Be clear about what the appointment is for, and get the soonest possible appointment (that day if possible).
I'm being successfully treated for depression. My depression and treatment is not your depression and treatment, but it's likely that there is effective treatment available for you.
Put it on your calendar right now to make the appointment on Monday. Your depression may be discouraging you from taking steps. Push through the fog, make and keep the appointment.
If you feel overwhelmed before Monday, call the emergency number. You're not wasting anyone's time, that's why they're working at the jobs they have.
Thank you for all the responses. I took a large life insurance policy a few weeks ago, but I'll look for a therapist on Monday. There's a hundred in Boulder, I feel paralyzed, I don't have time to figure them out. The few friends I have don't hear me. I do exercise and team sport, I eat decently well, those are not the causes.
I've looked into it and I'm pretty sure you need to have the policy for two years for them to pay out for suicide. So, you may as well get on meds for that time, and who knows, they might help a lot. They did for me. I was on Prozac around 2004. About a year ago I sought out help again and I am on 3 different ones, and it just feels like more of a science than it did back then. "Oh you're still sad? More Prozac!"
So yeah, do therapy, but strongly consider a psychiatrist as well. Also, I have been looking into ketamine treatment for depression. If you are at the end of your rope, worth checking out as well.
They do. It depends on the state how long they have to be in force. I think the idea is that a payout soon after starting the policy would encourage suicide (and payouts), but if you've had the policy for "long enough" you shouldn't be penalized for dying from a legitimate illness, which depression is.
As so many others note, keep trying stuff! You will, eventually, find a therapy that works for you. Me, some friends, coworkers, family - just a lot of people - have battled internally with depression. And we all cope a bit differently. Prolly because we all have something a bit different.
I never took medication. I think that was a mistake that added years to my recovery. I'm still not sure I'm a person yet (but I'm optimistic about it). I never had the crushing sadness many relate to depression, but rather the emotional void variant [0]; I can't imagine how crippling it must be to not only fake happiness, but to also have to compensate for genuine unhappiness... I hope you find what you need soon. I have an account at gmail (see username) if you feel safe venting to an anonymous person; just keep looking for something that gives you the contrast to see what feeling normal is like (not even feeling good! Just normal. Life is sometimes brutally sad for long periods. And that's ok. But if you can't imagine feeling differently then maybe the mind's chemistry has wedged itself.)
Anyhow, if anything else comes out of this rather large thread of responses, you ain't alone. It's hard to slog through and find what works for you, be it a next gen medicine, meditation, or an hour on the motorcycle every day, you'll find the thing(s) eventually. Just slog through it a bit longer.
Also: we seem to only have the one life, so procrastinate on ending it. You've a worst case of dying of old age or accident, then, and you may just be surprised to be in a better place a few years from now. Being able to look back is certainly a luxury I cherish, personally.
It's so silly, but this is to me the best, most consice write up of depression I've stumbled upon. YMMV. But my friends and I were in tears laughing over it - but over different parts. Depression nails a lot of people in different ways, so keep trying to fid the fix for you. It really does exist.
>If I stop working we'll be bankrupt within months.
Is it possible to cut your cost of living significantly (by 50% or more through some extreme changes)? When the alternative is suicide, I'd imagine that almost _anything_ else is acceptable.
I know you don't have the energy for this lifestyle refactor since you're working two jobs and depressed. Can your wife take on this responsibility?
Lastly, bankruptcy is a greatly preferable option to suicide for your families sake.
Is there any way you can siphon a small percentage of your pay into a separate direct deposit account you control? Even $100 per month accumulating for an emergency will be encouraging. And since your wife apparently spends until your money is gone, she may just stop sooner.
Things have come a long way in that time. I shyed away from medicine ~2007 because the side effects were gnarly and I was scared it would change who I was.
I tryed em out about 3 years ago. It remains among the smartest things I've ever done for myself. The field has come a long way. I'm the same guy I always was, with lots less crushing anxiety.
If it's been a long time, give it another go. "I tried a cell phone in 2003 - it was shitty" sounds crazy. It's apples to oranges compared to what's available today. Turns out medicine is the same way sometimes.
Try again for your family. You seem to care a lot about them.
Finding medication and a therapist that work for you is really hard. It can take a lot of work. But it's worth it. It won't fix everything, far from it, but it's worth it. Just keep taking it one day at a time.
The thing about depression is that everybody is different and everybody responds differently to different approaches. Sometimes drugs work, sometimes therapy works, sometimes drugs combined with therapy works, and so on.
Give it another go. Worst case scenario is you waste some time and maybe have some side-effects.
I've had episodes in my life where I felt so trapped or constrained or ashamed that I thought about ending it.
I'm really glad I didn't. My thought process was broken. I would have devastated my loved-ones, and thrown away my life for deadlines / issues that no one cared about that much.
I have friends who have survived major depression and are mostly happy now.
Please make whatever changes you need to make to get back on track. Who cares if you go bankrupt? Being there for your family is the only thing that matters.
What city do you live in? Maybe if you share that some people here could give you a good therapist referral - and the therapist can give you suggestions for a psychiatrist to perhaps try some medication in addition to counseling.
I think finding a good person is more important than modalities - and is often the trickiest part of the process. Which is (ironically) especially difficult for the depressed.
I used to have major depression. When I was in the military I nearly killed myself when I snuck a bullet from the rifle range back to my barracks. I was deeply in pain.
I think people who feel this way definitely need to seek help. I was lucky in that I didn't have to. What solved the worst of it for me was going out and being with people, having success (and epic failures) with dating.
Even though the depression never really neared suicidal levels again I was still mostly sad and I didn't realize this until many years later when I took some MDA. I hadn't ever done drugs before except some minor pot and MDA showed me the difference between what I had been feeling and what it was possible for me to feel like. I only took MDA a few times in my life and it's been over a decade since, but I learned from those experiences what kinds of things made me feel better and what it was possible to feel like and I've strived to achieve those feelings without taking drugs.
Now I feel happiness by achieving goals, being around people I love, having silent moments to myself, exercising, managing my stress levels and listening to music that makes me feel better.
It's not always a rose garden, life can be tough, but I never really feel like those awful pains of despair I lived in as a young adult.
I suffered from severe depression for years (to the point that suicide seemed preferable to enduring more failure), and only recently (the past year, really) have managed to stave it off entirely.
I didn't do so through the normal approach: Pills and talking about your feelings. I didn't do much of anything, really.
* The major sources of stress in my life worked themselves out. (I don't want to go into detail about this one.)
* I went on a ketogenic diet for a while, which helped with the anxiety significantly. I stopped six months ago because of unemployment (keto diets are expensive!), and the anxiety has not come back.
* I truly accepted that, no matter how much weight I lose or how successful I am in my career, I'll probably never be attractive enough to find a boyfriend. This was something that used to torment me with feelings of inadequacy (magnified by having to be in the closet to my religious family).
Recently, I started working a job that actually provides a livable wage AND health insurance benefits. (Also, paid time off. I haven't taken a vacation in five years!)
Now that I might actually be able to afford mental health care, I'm waiting to see if the depression will come back, because conventional wisdom says these small tweaks to my life are temporary measures at best. (However, if it doesn't come back, I'm cool with that.)
These were my experiences with depression. I'm sure many more people have suffered through it than will admit it.
That's a good point, and I hope it helps someone reading this thread.
As for me: I'm focusing on my friends and my career, not the uncertain prospects of romance. I don't even go to the local furry meetups anymore (all they really talked about was relationship drama, so not a huge loss).
Hope can be the biggest downer. I've learned to live without it. It's surprisingly liberating, actually. (I wouldn't recommend this for everyone.)
Having certain hopes can feel like measuring yourself and seeing how much you've failed to achieve that hope. It is liberating to let go of hope but you'll find it creeps back in with time since you're feeling good. Wishing you well.
Regarding #3, I feel you. I haven't accepted it yet myself, although it's probably better for my state of mind if I did. Hope can be a damaging thing if it's never met.
I'm pretty sure that I don't have depression but I've certainly felt "stuck". The responsibility of raising a family can be a heavy load - and a responsible father feels that weight. An irresponsible father doesn't feel the weight and it has little bearing on his decisions. Kudos for being a real dad - you'll imprint important life lessons on your daughters whether you realize it or not. My eldest daughter (almost 23) recently told me that she's only now realizing how much I sacrificed to make my family a safe and nurturing place for my kids.
In any case, when I feel "stuck", I look at specifically what's making me unhappy and what would make me happy. Then I form a long-term plan. You may not be able to quit your current work today, but what would it take to move into something you find rewarding. It might mean life-style changes: Got a car payment? Replace it with a beater you don't owe money on (my beater is really really nice but was a simple cash transaction).
I'd also caution you that you can't naturally work the long hours you're describing as a permanent schedule. You will burn out and/or your body will give out whether you have depression or not. If you're not exercising some minimum amount and you're not eating a healthy diet, that will also lower the threshold at which you give out.
I'm not a doctor or even a therapist - you should find one to talk with. I have however had joyless periods in my worklife, so please take my advice above with the understanding that you actually have two problems ... your depression is one and your lifestyle is the other. They will potentially exacerbate each other.
My email address is in my profile - feel free to correspond if you're interested in talking about the work related problems you're experiencing. Again, I'm not qualified to counsel you on the depression you're feeling. I've been in this industry for over 30 years, so you probably won't surprise me. Also notice my profile lists my family as my priority - they provide grounding for my work life.
Hope to hear from you ... and happy Easter.
P.S. I've got some job openings if you decide you need to make a work change. Perhaps there's something that matches your skills.
Thank you for this comment. As a father of 3, I know the feel of the load, but its important to note that it also needs to be a partnership to succeed - no single person can carry the load of several children alone.
I completely agree ... my wife is indeed my partner and I can't imagine life without her. Picking the right partner makes a big difference too!
WRT my site(s) ... I lost a server to hackers due to a RoR exploit (I was only running Redmine). As patio11 advises, don't use RoR unless you're willing to dedicate yourself to understanding how to keep it secure. I'm in the process of converting the content to markdown to be processed with a static code generator. I've got some old writing on CodeSnipers (Keith Casey's mid-2000s experiment) - http://codesnipers.com/?q=blog/steve-moyer
It might be the longest comment on this thread, but those who added their comments and have fought through depression themselves offer a far more compelling argument that the OP should a) seek help and b) can beat this condition. The reality is that the "career advice" I offered is what I would offer to anyone who chronically over-worked themselves.
I hope I'm friendly (in general). I like this community because you can be friendly and still disagree - debate is different from argument and I often learn something even from those I disagree with. If you look through my comments you'll find instances where I revert to "that Internet jerk", but hopefully they're a pretty small percentage.
Haha well nobody's perfect. I like this community because it moderates the jokes and non-substantive comments. I know I will find serious discussion on HN.
The author here is pretty brave. I've often thought about writing something along similar lines. When you're living in DC and you aren't doing this long list of elite stuff, it's much less ok to admit you're not ok. Many places want their younger workers to work hard, not smart. I'm currently looking for a job that have more autonomy, more respect for the individual, but they're hard to find.
It's especially frustrating since after trying a bunch of treatments (therapy, prescription drugs, and various combinations of the two), I've found that good sleep, regular exercise, and the ocassional bowl of weed after work have improved things tremendously.
However, marijuana remains illegal at the federal level.
Even for "uncleared" work, you often have to go through a background check, and one of the questions asks "Have you illegally used drugs" in a certain time frame. (A year, if I remember correctly). I've been told informally it's a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. So basically, even if a position doesn't drug test, you now have the fact you lied on a clearance form hanging over your head.
This has a trickle down effect... the jobs that don't care about any of the above don't do a clearance check are quite hard to get.
Be careful using weed to mask depression. It does work, in my experience. But tolerance can develop over time. It's nowhere near as dramatic as addiction to tobacco or heroin or benzodiazepines. Yet there is the risk.
Also, dogma and accepted practice notwithstanding, "depression" is a morass of symptoms, not a well-defined disease/condition. Testing treatments is hard, because symptoms subjective and placebo effects are huge. And worse, GPs tend to cluelessly prescribe popular SSRIs/SNRIs, and those can make bipolar folks seriously crazy. As in psychotic. homicidal and/or suicidal. Especially younger patients, apparently. So be careful!
The author had withdrawals from her medication which wouldn't happen with marijuana. At most you won't sleep that well for a few nights and then experience vivid dreams. And often a sativa strain works well to give the patient motivation to exercise, which seems to be basic but important when fighting depression.
There's a well known risky time during treatment for depression in people with suicidal ideation. Those people get more motivation, and are more able to do stuff. But they still have strongly negative thinking and suicidal thinking. They are more able to kill themselves, and many do.
> motivation to exercise, which seems to be basic but important when fighting depression
There are two links in this thread to the science that show exercise probably isn't that useful to treat depression.
Another DC area related source of stigma: iirc, when getting even a public trust level security clearance you have to disclose (or allow them to look up) any medications you routinely take.
Does it kill your chances for a higher level clearance, if you have had depression? I'm not sure. But, it sure seemed like it.
As someone who has suffered from depression for my entire life I can say the truth sets me free in a lot of ways. My life is a weird struggle between the feeling of hopelessness, paranoia makes me feel like I am worth taking care of and overall confusion of my emotions and what my best path.
Today I believe that I am a dog, to be trained as a dog. Find what good things reward me and reward myself for doing good. Avoid what hurts me or rewards me for doing bad. Additionally I have almost always sufferred from dellusions of granduer, believing I can do more than I can. These delusions have always brought me joy and purpose, as if I am worth life.
Sometimes depression comes up again, now adays I rationalize it. It is my brain telling me my current path is unrealistic, I will fail and that I am a burden to society. Time/practice of a skill is the ultimate determination of realism. Failing is the reault of not preparing for obstacles and not looking for opportunities. Being a burden is only official when I stop thinking, stop talking, stop bringing emotions to other people and stop pushing for what I want.
To be homest, most of my interactions with depression are micro aggressions. Last month I got severely depressed. But that also comes about when there are promises I cannot keep. Which leads me to say, this may or may not be the correct road but It has helped me.
Are you sure you're not bipolar? I thought I suffered from depression for 20 years until I finally figured out I was actually bipolar. The portrayal of bipolar in the media and the zeitgeist about it are not reflective of what it looks like, or feels like, in reality. More so, the prevalence of "bipolar 2" (depression + hypomania, not full on mania) is much greater than bipolar 1, but poorly understood by the public at large. There are a lot of tropes about bipolar that just aren't true. That you have tons and tons of energy like you're on meth, that you act "crazy" when you're manic, that you're ludicrously "happy" when manic/hypomanic, that phases come and go at random. None of that bore a resemblance to my life, so I never knew. For me bouts of hypomania always just felt like periods where I had just found something to work on and somehow had managed to maintain focus on it for a while, they're periods of productivity or enthusiasm, often about new things. And only rarely would I describe them as periods of happiness, when you're depressed for so long it can be difficult to even know what it feels like to be happy, and you can spend time in a hypomanic state without being notably happy.
But I noticed that there are times when my sleep schedule is very different (easily masked because I have a sleep disorder as well which makes it difficult to maintain a consistent schedule), times when I am very chatty, times when I'm very focused on a project or game or activity (focus on goal oriented activities), times when I feel a sense of inflated self-esteem or grandiosity, times of increased risk taking, and so on. I just always saw these things as aspects of my personality, and things that I'd been able to leverage for my own benefit or, usually, keep under control.
What you wrote and the article are spot on to my symptoms. I often pass off my intense excitement as a personality trait and have rarely met anyone similar. I often relate bi polar to uncontrollable changes while my changes are very reasonable and often predictable though prolonged and intense. I appreciate you sharing this information with me
My belief is that the symptoms of bipolar ARE part of your personality. They aren't good or bad, they just are. But you can't let them get the best of you. You have to recognize them and work to negate them.
My dad had kind of a typical (?!) depressive career: he worked a lot. First, he had a tinnitus and some years after that he had "burnout". 6 months after my dad retired he tried to jump into death. After 2 weeks of coma he was like mentally switched. It was christmas and we told him that he'll be grandpa in a few months. Now, 5 years later he says that this helped a lot. He still does therapy. He found the therapist that fitted him perfectly. Its still work to do but he works on it. The therapist told him that he has a trauma like many Germans which were born in the generation after world war 2. The trauma is the root cause and he has a chance to overcome this trauma. We will see. My wife's uncle didn't worked his first depression and recently - about 10 years after the first breakout - he's depressive again.
Several months ago I saw a documentary about people who have suicidal thoughts. They followed several people who were in contact with a suicide help line, either by phone or by chat, with their approval, sometimes anonymized.
What was new to me was that they only could think of committing suicide. It was a major thought throughout everything they did. Like a major depression is something completely different from being depressed, this seemed like major suicidal. One woman who was in her 30s decided to get a daughter hoping her thougts would disappear when she had someone to take care of. That didn't happen.
When her daughter grew up, she decided not to commit suicide because it would be cruel to her daughter. She had a good job, a nice husband, a good life, with money, car, nice house, a social life and in many ways a better life than I have, but still she wanted to kill herself. It was in every thought she had. I cannot explain it, you have to see and hear her explain it. It was completely new to me. She still lived when the documentary was on TV, but I'm not sure how long she will live.
Definitely a good idea not to hide depression. I also learned that as a friend/ family member you can help a lot by being there and listening to people when they are depressed (but not trying to cheer them up). I would recommend anyone to read up on the condition - e.g. http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-h...
I don't believe in therapy. I have multiple major depressions throughout my life, and I entered a new one two and a half years ago. I don't believe in therapy because therapists don't offer anything new but the same comments and advice I get from books and television shows. Morning commute and night commute are the darkest hours of my every day life. Sleeping in doesn't help me because my mind is full of ideas and fears I can't resist to eliminate. I have invested so much in one relationship which did not last. We were such an adorable couple and I was so certain we would last until death do us apart. When I broke up with this girl I turned insane like previous depressions, but this time, I am done with taking a new way out. If only time travel is real and I can afford to go back in time. At work many coworkers consider me as a superstar. But outside of work I deliver no values, but disappointment and regret. I can only block my mind for as long as I am on the computer playing games. One day I will commit suicide just so I can leave this physical body and if I ended up in Hell, so be it. As a Catholic, suicide is not allowed in my religion. I am just waiting to pay off my mortgage so my parents don't have to pay for it. I think then I will be better of taking my own life by then. I am telling you all, therapy is no fucking use.
The reason why therapy has little use to you is because right now you're very stubbornly defining your happiness. What good does anyone's words mean to you -- you who think you have sacrificed happiness.
I been there and said similar things to myself while holding the mask proud for others to marvel at. You need to learn that you don't need anything to make you happy. Happiness is found within. If you never accept this, you will spend a tragic life seeking outside for what is found within.
Be grateful for the times you had and forgive her for no longer being by your side. Is it not arrogance otherwise? Don't you love her? Do what's best for her then and right now, that means focusing on yourself. It is wasted time trying to run from your problems. Approach them honestly without defense. Do not dictate their solution, but try to listen instead and you might be surprised at how they dissipate.
Remember, thoughts and actions are but expressions of your beliefs. The belief that you can only be happy with girl {X} is an attack upon yourself you currently do not recognize. What you do recognize is your desire to attack yourself physically. The next step is understanding why you wish to attack yourself.
God does not will this kind of life for you, and also learn that you are already in hell. Enlightenment comes from within and the devil is the great deceiver. You are merely deceived by a voice that is defining what your happiness is. Let it go and you'll watch your suffering go and you'll laugh that you ever thought your happiness could be assailed.
I'll be frank: I am quite possibly alive today due to guilt that family would inherit a burdensome debt. There is something sublimely lousy about wanting a way out so badly and yet even that isn't an option.
Wanting to commit suicide has been likened to being in a trapped building: no one really wants to die, but jumping out under your own terms now sure seems better than burning alive slowly.
And then you go and find the damn window is jammed and you're really trapped because even suicide is not an option.
That's how I felt. And it turned out ok. (Not great, but really anywhere is up :) I certainly don't and didn't feel the same as you for the same reasons - totally different life and brain chemistry, I bet - but the algebra works out the same. Stay alive and endure a bit longer, and maybe you'll find something that helps you cope and get a handle on things. The cool game-theoretic bit is that this is always valid. It's always worth putting off suicide longer, every moment of every day. You can die and end with naught (or in your faith that's a pretty brutal negative), or you can risk a few years more and still end for naught OR something positive. It doesn't even need to be very positive. Just beat the trivial null case of no-more-life and you come out ahead. Do that for a couple days, a couple months, put it off for a few years, and maybe the habit of wanting to live sticks.
And hey - video games are great. They keep me distracted, my friends in touch, and they're only getting better (despite what the old curmudgeons say). Stick around for a few years to at least see where the consumer VR stuff goes. Could be worth the wait ;)
Its not working out for you, maybe it doesnt work for you. Therapy works for many people however so I would suggest you do not put people off from it although it does not work for you.
As far as it goes i dont think therapy works by teaching you something 'new' that you cant get out of a book. Thats like saying excersize doesnt work because you have done all the motions before. Therapy when it works is largely about opening yourself up and committing to reprogramming yourself and going through a bunch of effort and seeing that going through the mechanical process of therapy does have some minimal value and realizing you are in control of your own mind to some degree and using that tiny minuscule victor as a 'hope' that keeps you moving forward.
I wish you well, i wish i could say more. I feel you.
This is exactly how I feel. I have no I mention of suicide, but I feel it looming over me.
The biggest thing that has stopped me has been not wanting my family to have to deal with my suicide. I've slowly distanced myself from my family over the past few years, and figure at some point I'll just 'go away' in such a manner that nobody knows what happened. I guess I'm a bit selfish, but I really don't care anymore.
Hey, if you're gonna be selfish, fail hedonistic, not dead. Find the stuff you like and live for that; if you can't seem to like anything, well, put it off until you do again. No point giving up before you figure out what you're missing out on. Dying ignorant of what makes life worth living is just the worst kind of tragedy.
I don't want to suggest vice is great. Just that as far as alternatives go, maybe you can channel that selfishness :) after all, you can always recover from a vice you enjoy (and even repent if that is what worries you like the GP comment), but it's really hard to recover from death.
Millions and millions of people manage to get along through their lives. See what they have that you don't. I'd bet it's prolly some neurotransmitter or chemistry, but maybe exercise or a chocolate deficiency (I found I needed annoyingly stubborn/complicated problems to work on to distract me). Hard to tell over the Internet. See a doctor about medication or therapy or diet or something until you did something that works.
Then see you you feel. (This is very much a heads you win, tails flip again sort of thing, and it works pretty well as a stalling tactic :)
Your thinking is broken because you have a mental illness. You say you've been through this before so that means you can get out of it again.
I've been through similar episodes of planning for isolation and suicide. You need to get help. I mean you can always kill yourself later, right? Might as well try to get help first.
There are many, many options and the technology is getting better.
I almost jumped off a bridge a month ago. Over what? Not marking some fucking assignments for my students? Not being a billionaire? Turning 40?
You may hate yourself right now, but there are people who love you and who would be devastated by your death.
Get help! Try again! Keep trying. You've been through this before, so you can get out of it again.
Therapy is just scaffolding that gives people the opportunity to work through their issues and can provide the courage and motivation to carry through. It works for some people but not for everyone. Personally, therapy is not for me, but I would never discourage anyone else from trying it.
Have you ever been prescribed medication before, and did you take it as instructed? If not I think it would be logical to investigate that avenue (a few times with different drugs, it's far from an exact science) before giving up all hope.
I've struggled with a serious mental illness for years. Although I've beaten the worst of it, I have to be vigilant for the rest of my life to make sure I stay healthy.
In my experience, one issue that does not get enough attention is the stress and strain mental illness puts on the loved ones of those who suffer from mental illness. I hate that mine has been a burden on my wife and kids, even thought I have taken full ownership of it.
I'm glad to see that awareness is growing. We still have a long way to go, especially in certain industries (I'm looking at you, Hollywood).
I'm blown away by all the openness and good advice in this thread.
I've suffered through bouts of depression most of my life as well. Luckily, I learned a few things about how to deal with it in my younger years - not that I have always followed the process, but at least the tools are there.
Technical fields are very prone to bring out depression. We work long hours, spend a lot of time in isolation, and have little time to celebrate our own successes. Poor eating and lack of exercise add to the recipe of less than optimal mental health.
There are a few things you can do to help yourself avoid a bad mental state, and help others as well.
2. Be more social. Interact with people at work and outside of work. Include others in your day to day adventures.
3. Get more sun. It's spring time. Enjoy it.
4. Get exercise. It's crazy how quickly you can go from completely sedentary to running a 5k.
5. Get sleep. It's astounding how much of a difference regular sleep will make in your happiness, in your metabolism, and in your overall outlook.
6. Don't accept dangerous behaviors out of your peers. When you see someone working 100 hour weeks over and over again, make them stop. We all appreciate a solid work ethic. Don't take advantage of it. When you see a co-worker isolated due to workload, figure out ways to bring that person out of it.
7. Be a leader. Be healthy. Have balance. Show people what kind of a difference that lifestyle can make.
Depression is always best cared for by a professional, but not everyone is open to therapy. When you identify someone going through it, don't simply recommend seeing a doctor and move on. Be a friend.
My experience is that a lot of people that are raised in homes with some form of addiction or other kind of dysfunctionality can have symptoms similar to depression while the actual need is to treat the traumas from family dysfunction. If you suspect this and would like to seek help you could have a look at the 14 common traits of "adult children" http://www.adultchildren.org/lit-Laundry_List#1
I identified and found a way out of anxiety by attending those meetings.
Does anyone have an antidepressant they've tried that doesn't give them horrible sexual side effects such as loss of libido and inability to orgasm? All the SSRIs seem to do that. Zoloft, Paxil, Amitriptyline. They make me happy but I'm dead below the waist.
Mirtazapine worked for me for a while but it pooped out, and Wellbutrin makes me feel ridiculously amped up. So those are no good.
I'm married, and I've been depressed to varying degrees for years (severely now), but I don't want to give up my sex life because that's one of the few things in my life I enjoy.
I'm currently on Venlafaxine. Previously I was on Citalopram. The Citalopram totally killed my sex drive and prevented orgasm, so this time around I asked for something different. The Venlafaxine slows me right down, and my orgasm (once I finally get there) is altered somewhat, but I can perform most of the time. Which for me is enough, YMMV of course.
Trying to understand the reasons behind a suicide is futile. It's usually not something logical which can make it very hard for rational people to reason about. It's a disease...
The biggest problem with depression is that it is impossible to explain to someone who has not felt it. That is why talking to professional is very very important even if you have doubts.
I've read through almost this entire thread and was wondering if anyone has advice for someone whose is trying to support a loved one through a fairly significant depressive episode?
While I imagine that the major benefit comes from personal will within the depressed individual, does anyone have any positive experience where a loved one or friend was able to provide support in a meaningful and beneficial way?
(just from personal experience, not a doctor. But below is what people have done that really improved my quality of life through depressive episodes)
#1 is take care of yourself--- you, the support-giver, should come first; if you start to get frustrated with caring for the person with depression they'll sense it and then close off 100%.
#2 bring them out to do things. Not necessary to be over the top happy, just seeing somebody motivated to do stuff, and willing to take the time to drag me along.... was great. The world always seemed a lot less bleak at the end of those days. The activity itself didn't matter at all, so no need to plan anything grandiose.
#3 after days that you've done something, touch base really quick the next day. Just a "had fun last night" text or call first thing, doesn't have to take much time. Just to stop the back-slide of the depressive mind's tendency to pick apart significant events and turn them vile and negative
#4 Don't _worry_ because that's a negative emotion (easier said than done when it comes to somebody you care for, I know), because it can cause a lot of feelings of guilt and burden in the depressed person. Show care with positive support like frequent check-in's, random visits with food and sundries, etc.
#5 Again, I can't say this enough: take care of _yourself_. Do not burn yourself out trying to be a 'be all end all' care giver. If you have to step away for a week, that's better than showing up miserable and resentful. And it will happen--- it's only natural to feel tired/hopeless/unappreciated/'done' sometimes, especially if you're supporting somebody with a very long depression that has nasty/antisocial outward mood side effects (like lashing out, transient paranoia, antisocial resistance to aid, and such).
I don't know if that'll be helpful at all, but you had no other replies and I've been the person receiving care/support before. I know it isn't easy, but it is _always_ appreciated.
Lots of good points being made here. I wanted to point out that there are various non-profit organisations dealing with depression or mental illness. They (or their websites) are great places to go when you or a loved one suffers from depression. E.g. (google for more in your area):
I have been in and out of depression and obsessive isolation. The one thing that gets me through the hell that comes with it is my ability to (eventually) reach out to my friends and family.
If you're ever feeling like you can't get through the dark times, please reach out to those who care about you. Even if those relationships are purely online.
It helps to be reminded you're not alone, even when that seems like a trivial or obvious Sometimes we tend to avoid the simplest and most elegant solutions because they're not as mentally stimulating -- it's the part of the double edged sword of an analytical mind. At least that's the case for me.
Hey, did you call a therapist? Maybe we can help you find one. Zocdoc looks like an easy way to make an appointment [1]
You're as important as anyone else in this world. You're no less and no more important. We're all equals and you deserve a fair shot at happiness just like everyone else. If you can't do it for you, do it for your daughter. She wants you to be happy she just does not understand what's going on, just like the girl in the article. She's better off with you around.
I'd like to know too, did you call? And if you didn't, don't give up, you can still call. It's so easy to take a minor setback and think "yeah, that's me, and why bother anyway?" But that's your illness talking.
It is worth it to try. And it's not that hard. Just call.
You are not at all worthless, you're just ill. Unfortunately the nature of your illness damages your ability to see that. It's one of the most vicious of cycles.
Look at all the people in this thread who are encouraging you to get help, many of us suffering from the same illness you have. You're getting a lot of different advice, but all of it is resting on the idea to take steps, because it's worth it. Because you're worth it.
Life can be really hard sometimes, a fact that was lost on me when I was younger. I surrounded myself with friends who had big goals and dreams, starting companies, becoming VC's and the like. They claimed they didn't have time to be depressed, and that they were "killing it" no matter how things appeared to the outside world. I thought I was wrong to feel down and hopeless, like I was the only one feeling actual negative feelings on a daily basis.
A few years later, having lost two of those friends to depression and seeing others abuse various substances to blunt their feelings, I no longer feel crazy. I feel smart that I went and got help when it felt unbearable, rather than try to fight through it. I think American, and tech culture in particular, are still really hard places to discuss depression and the issues surrounding it. Thanks for the article, and all these insightful comments. These things need to be talked about.
I've been a long time reader of this great news site which gives me a joy to read everyday but today is the only time I have felt compelled to comment on a post.
A few years back I had been bottling up a lot of issues and negative thoughts that had just manifested in my head over time and got worse and worse. I couldn't think straight, everything was an effort I literally felt like I was going to feel this way forever. I never considered self-harm and said to myself that I couldn't live with feeling this way day in and day out. I had somewhat of a breakdown (I was around 25 years of age living out of home with my partner) and had to take a week off work. I made the call and ended up getting an appointment with a psychologist later that week.
I was convinced I was screwed even after half a dozen appointments - mainly because I was too scared and embarrassed to say what was really bugging me out of fear of judgement by my psychologist (I know, it's their job). I felt like absolute garbage day in and day out and felt sorry for myself and feeling like I deserved better, I let it keep building up and building up and despite going to these appointments I kept shying away from explaining what thoughts and memories were upsetting me. One day I walked into an appointment and I was usually composed and pretty chirpy, this time I just sat down and bawled my eyes out and realized enough was enough. I explained all the negative thoughts that had been bugging me and that was the start of turning things around. I extensively credit my psychologist for helping me get my issues together and helping me finally get on the path to learning how to deal with these issues and overcome them.
I thought I was really depressed, when I really had severe anxiety and not much in terms of what constituted for 'depression' - I know the two can go hand in hand and one can be labelled as the other and so on. I kept at it and over the course of about 30 appointments over several years I was taught strategies on how to deal with negative thoughts, anxiety and so forth. I was in a job I didn't like one bit, living out of home with little money and whilst I was beginning to get on top of my anxiety issues which were dragging me down so heavily I knew I had to move on professionally.
I reduced my work load to part time, started studying Computer Science at University (my old job was non IT) which I have absolutely loved from the very beginning and am about two thirds through my degree. I was lucky enough to get some part time work as a developer with someone I know who needed a bit of help which I still do today. Since starting this new job I have felt like compared to the position I was into a year prior literally nothing could of gone better for me. I look back at myself two years ago in a job I really did not enjoy with constant severe anxiety looming over me everyday to the point where I didn't even have the courage to catch up with some of my closest friends. It dictated my life but I said enough was enough and I wasn't going to let it control me anymore.
It's taken me a lot of practice and persistence to be able to control the flood of negative thoughts that come to me daily and I still on the odd day struggle pretty bad. Like I mentioned above I haven't even finished my degree yet but am working as a part time programmer which I could not be more happy about as it is giving me great experience however I'm incredibly tough on myself to be as valuable to my employer as possible. Programming is something that from what I have discovered, experience plays a major part in how well you can do it - I currently have very little experience but put expectations on myself that I should be able to work as fast and have code as excellent and at a the same level of quality as my co-worker who has more years experience than me. It's an area where my anxiety tries to find a way in to get to me to drag me down and something that I have to consistently need to keep on-top of but at the end of the day I'm glad that I am finally doing something I am truly passionate about.
The main reason I have written this is because I want to encourage people who are feeling down for an extended period of time to seek help. You may not see it at the time, and I didn't believe me - but you can feel better. It scares me to think of where I would be had I not of walked into my psychologists office a few years back. It's the hardest thing I had ever done but it was the best thing I have ever done.
I maybe rambled on a bit too much but just wanted to share.
I haven't seen anyone mention meditation in this thread yet. I just want to throw that out there. It can help quiet and focus your mind. The book Mindfulness in Plain English is a good introduction.
A lot of these posts seem to glover over the burden that depression is. To everyone, not just the sufferer. I say that as someone who suffers from severe depression, and cares for someone who I honestly believe is dead when I don't hear from them for a week. It's not a glamorous thing (That we all agree on). It is a horrible disease, with no completely effective cure. It can strike multiple times, and has a mortality rate in the double digits. People should not feel the need to keep quiet. But people should be aware of that difficulty in dealing with depressed people. I am not saying they've done anything wrong. Dementia is horrible care-givers. The person is so frustrating, but it's not their fault.
Depression is an uncomfortable companion for me. I've suffered with it for a long time. I was first diagnosed when I was 20, but the consensus (from my obviously fallible memory) is that it began between 12-14. I still have memories of sitting in my room, singing a song about how no-one loves me, when I was 10. I am "only" 28 now. I remember feeling confused. I knew mum and dad loved me; but why did I feel like no-one did? It took me a long time, to overcome that disconnect. It's maddening. To know, intellectually, that something is true, but your mind screams at you that it's not.
My mum was diagnosed as being depressed at the age of 25. Was an alcoholic since the age of 17. She still has it. For her, there is no end in site. She's had ECT several years ago. It helped, mildly, with the depression. She was never the same after, and had severe memory problems for a year.
She has cut herself hundreds of times. She is ashamed of it, and doesn't go outside. She does it because she just wants some expression of how bad she feels on the inside. A release, an outlet. She takes 5-6 different anti-depressants, and anti-anxiety medications. She has tried to kill herself 3 times. Each time I've saved her life. The first two, she had cut her wrists open. The last time, she overdosed on her medication with rum. The last time was the time she almost succeeded.
I haven't heard from her in two weeks. Which worries me, because it is Easter, and she hasn't answered all day. No-one else in my family looks out for her. She did a lot of shit wrong, as a mother, and as a partner. But I know she is struggling. I'd check up on her physically, but she moved into new government housing, and didn't give me the address, because she was upset that I called an ambulance the last three times she cut herself, and didn't want "the drama of dealing with it again". I tell her things will get better, but I honestly don't believe they will. I want them too. I hope they do. I try to help as much as I can. But it's hard to see things getting much better.
It scares me, because I don't want that future. My marriage failed at 24. Three friends, my parents, and my sister. Those are the only people I've ever told. Way after the fact. To this day, they all believe I became depressed after the marriage. It makes sense after all.
The truth is, that I was depressed before I met my then-wife. I used to cry myself to sleep a lot. I used to feel angry a lot. Tired a lot. But for me, it was "just life". I just thought that's how things were. It wasn't until I saw the pain it inflicted on my partner that I sought help. There's a lot of reasons I am this way, supposedly. Rough upbringing. Bullying, social isolation, broken marriage of my parents, etc.
My partner found it extremely hard to deal with my need for approval, for reassurance, to be told I was loved. I eventually got help. She was hostile at first; she thought the psychologist would blame her. Three months of therapy, and things got a bit better.
After the relationship began to break down, my depression and anxiety went absolutely nuclear. Not just sad little moments at home, or a tear here and there. I would be at work, and start crying, and need to run the toilet to hide. I would have "episodes". I would just lie on the floor, curled up, sobbing. Sometimes, if the emotional pain was too much, it was this kind of horrible combination of screaming, and sobbing.
I normally have a pretty good memory of my internal monologue. When I have those episodes, there isn't any sense of self. I "remember" my wife kneeling there, holding me, and moving her mouth, with a strange look on her face. I still don't know why I was in so much emotional pain that I screamed, and screamed, and screamed.
I managed to get in check, with some anti-depressants, and psychology appointments three times a week. I think I was worse. I was so numb. Nothing was real. Work. Home. Sleep. Cry. Argue. Like some kind of strange, opaque opaque film, representing my life.
That's when I decided I would kill myself. I still loved my wife dearly, but I knew we wouldn't work. I knew she wouldn't leave me while I was in such a bad way. I acted like I was normal, and told her I just didn't love her anymore. I told her we needed some space. I promised myself I'd do it when she was far enough removed that she would feel no guilt. I told myself I'd keep the therapy up, but that was always there. Like a goal.
I actually lost 50kg, from exercising. I was running 10-15km an evening on weeknights, and 25km every Saturday. I was going to the gym four nights a week. My diet was better, the house was less of a mess. I was more in touch with my feelings.
But it didn't help. I still wanted to die. I was so tired. This next statement really sums up what depression has been for me; but no-one seems to "get" it.
Getting out of bed, and putting on my pants, was harder than running a half marathon. In a very literal sense. It felt like I was overcoming physical burdens to just function. Routine helped, but I've never "tried" so hard.
Emotionally, I was so numb. I got a huge promotion at work. I did not care. My great grandfather died. I did not care. A horrible thing to say, but I had lost the capacity, 90% of the time, to feel meaningful emotions. They were the only things I missed. But when I had them, they were torment.
I would lie on the floor, crying. For four, maybe five hours each time. But I yearned for that pain, because I felt alive. Ironic, that I wanted to be alive until I died.
I was still seeing a psychologist, but was not on medication. I was always honest with her, except for "the plan".
I began to drink a lot. I think I hoped I'd get drunk enough to have the courage to do it right. Death is still intimidating for me, even when I want it. It didn't help though. I'd drink 30 or 40 standard drinks, and waste the day in the shower covered in vomit. I never got to the point I would be while drunk, so I would just do it sober. I gave it up.
I took a "goodbye trip". To see family and friends. It was the first time they ever knew something was up. But to them, it was so subtle. Just a quietness of character. A dimming of the bulb.
Through coincidence, I was back home on a flight on New Years Eve. I was so certain I'd do it. No plans for elaborate, painless, ways. Just in the shower, with a kitchen knife and warm water. Hard to mess up too badly, since no-one would come looking for weeks.
I wrote my letter. I apologised. I asked if people could one day forgive me. I told them it's not their fault. Got naked, got in the shower, and I had just begun to cut myself, only shallow, when my phone rang with my dads call tone. I'm not sure why, but my determination went to dust. I thought of him, and the pain it would hurt. I told myself, I'd try even harder. I would do anything short of ECT. I'd go to hospital. I'd take medication. Anything.
My psychologist was going to have me hospitalised, but she said she trusted me, and was giving me a chance, referred me on to a prominent psychiatrist. She was against drugs too, but thought I wouldn't get better without them.
I fought for a year and a half. I went through a number of drugs, of different classes. One looked promising, but the affects went away at lower doses, and I was hyper aggressive at the higher dose. Eventually though, escitalopram "worked" best. But I started to feel again. My anxiety slowly got better.
I remember the first time I actually felt "hope". I felt like God. Invincible. Indestructible. How could I fail with hope? The drug made me "physically" tired. I had to take a dump every 3 hours. I put on a few kg. But motivation wise, it made up for it.
I got out of it... I thought. Looking back, I told myself I would never become like that again. Sound plan...
I met a new lover. She was a pretty nice girl. Didn't work out. Unfortunately, she said and did some really terrible things at the end. The break-up was a bit messy, but not extreme. A series of events really triggered off my anxiety. I lost 5kg in a week because I wasn't eating and stopped running. I stopped talking to people. I couldn't sleep more than two hours a night, on a good night. I started getting mouth ulcers.
Then came the inevitable old friend. A lot of my friends who I had told the first time around, have started getting concerned. It puts burden on them. It is not something they can just "know about and forget". They make a lot of effort too, which makes me feel bad, because I just don't care enough a lot of the time.
I saw myself slipping into a nuclear episode again. I've tried to stave it off. I'm looking for a new doctor, since I've moved since the previous event. I'm making myself eat more. I'm making myself talk to people. I'm going to the gym and running. I'm practicing and applying the techniques I learned in ACT therapy (And CBT to a lesser extent).
I'm not sure at this stage if I've stopped it. It's too early to tell. I feel like I'm on the edge of the abyss. It's easy to say it will be ok from the edge. It's a different world when you're in it.
I've spoken to my sister. To my dad. To friends. For help, for support. Because I know it's the personally responsible thing to do. But the burden on them is huge. How guilty would anyone feel, or responsible, if someone decided to give up on life, despite someone coming to them for help? Cognitively they would understand, but emotionally it's very different.
For the past five years I've found the most meaning in my life through work. At the cost of abandoning (not burning) bridges with those close to me. That may seem shallow, but here in the Bay Area I don't believe I'm the only one who has done this.
Now I'm returning to my roots. Why did I ever give up playing video games with my friends?
If you choose to talk to a therapist, make sure to find an older guy that is not bought out with the modern medical system. He'll actually help you. The younger generation is full of shills with pills and not a lot of actual emotional fill.
A lot of times people who are depressed don't know they are depressed.
For instance, one symptom of depression is physical pains that move around from place to place. For instance one day your low back hurts, then your legs, then your shoulders, etc.
Try meditation, it got me out of depression after 3 years of pain, seeing a lot of psychiatrists and taking multiple antidepressants. There is always a reason why we are depressed. We need to go deep into ourselves to find it, there is no other way.
It's not useful for everyone, and it's sometimes harmful. The risks of harm tend to be ignored by people delivering meditation and mindfulness.
> There is always a reason why we are depressed. We need to go deep into ourselves to find it, there is no other way.
The evidence from cognitive behavioural therapy suggests this is not always true. For some (but not all) people there isn't any reason, and it's certainly not always some buried trauma.
I'm often surprised by non-doctors giving medical advice to someone who has a potentially fatal illness.
It feels really irresponsible to me. As irresponsible as telling a cancer patient to try carrots.
Although I accept that you're showing compassion, and that's important. And that you're not being judgemental. And that you have some evidence that exercise works to treat depression - you're not talking obvious nonsense. (Although that evidence isn't as strong as you think it is, especially for major depression.)
This happens with any chronic illness especially ones where the cause and treatment are vague.
"You need to do X."
Suffer from a chronic illness and you'll get all sorts of unsolicited comments from strangers to give up or get more Y. While perhaps we'll meaning these comments are grating, overly simplistic, and unhelpful - most people have tried everything under sun and more. Their medical issues aren't as simple as you make them out to be.
Exercise is probably helpful for someone moderately depressed or just feeling a little down. Probably not very helpful for the seriously depressed. I know it was unhelpful and somewhat harmful for my [very serious] depression.
The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. Considering that it's vitally important, often ignored, devoid of negative side effects, and free to implement, I think you're the one being irresponsible.
> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet.
No, it isn't, but people really, really like to think that it is [1]. Like most other interventions worth talking about, there are situations it improves, situations where it doesn't change much, and situations it worsens (those "consult your physician before starting an exercise program" disclaimers aren't just for show).
Anecdote of one: Looking back, I've been depressed most of my adult life, from 20 to my current 58. A few years ago I went to CrossFit for a couple years. I went from not being able to do a single pullup, to being able to crack off 20+.
It didn't help. For me. I still wanted to kill myself, and all the while I went to the gym I felt it was pointless.
Again, that's an anecdote of one. The cause of my depression and someone else's, and the effective treatment, are potentially very different.
Great if exercise helps a particular depression. But if it doesn't, the that person is fit and depressed.
I went on a fitness binge a bit back. These days I can run a 10k in 45 minutes pretty easily, hit very good lifts for my weight class, and eat salads basically every single meal.
After work and after the gym, all I want to do is drink or anything similar to get rid of all the thoughts in my head about how pointless it all is. Why the hell do I care if I can do all that crap.
I feel like how others do. I work 60-70 hours a week because work is the only thing that keeps me away from more depressive thoughts. I don't enjoy doing anything. I've tried going on vacations, hiking, all the things people say young people should do.
All it ever does is make me more depressed that I don't enjoy these things at all, especially since I'm in my early 20s. I've tried doing hacking with Arduino and Raspberry Pi's because I'm supopsed to enjoy that, but no matter what, I don't care because it all seems like junk. I don't care about that shit at all.
I sold a majority of my stuff, and the majority of my possessions fits into a single SUV. No permanent furniture, nothing that costs more than a grand.
Owning stuff brings me no joy, so why even bother having it around.
One of the symptoms of depression is losing interest in things that you previously enjoyed.
I was mildly depressed for a while and even things that previously gave me great joy, like music and hanging out with close friends, lost their charm. I believe the technical term for this is ahedonia. Luckily I got better and the joy came back.
So perhaps you do enjoy some of the things you've tried, your just not in a physical state to feel it at the moment.
Yeah, this is how most things felt for me. Why do I care? And then I'd look at other people enjoying their lives, doing things they do, things that I do too, and wonder WTF? What's wrong with me?
For me, with treatment, I've gained back the capacity to enjoy life. I've gained myself back. It's not happy pills and shining eyes, it's just me, still with my individual qualities and quirks, who's been in there all these decades.
I hope you get help. It's hard to think that help is worthwhile, when everything else seems pointless. But it's worth talking to your doctor or other professional, and it's worth continuing to try if the first methods don't work. You are in there somewhere.
No, I actually somewhat enjoy it. I do wish it was a bit more technically challenging, but really, if I didn't work as much as I did and at the very least took a bit of enjoyment out of it, I probably would have killed myself last year. It's the only lifeline I have.
I was just thinking maybe you could find something you love. At this stage the salary you receive probably isn't terribly important. If you're that close to the end of your rope, trying fairly random solutions maybe isn't that bad of an idea.
Tried out travel. Went to about a half dozen countries. Didn't do it for me. Everywhere is pretty much the same. People trying to live their day to day lives with minor difference in culture. Meh.
I'm terrible with people in general. I'm generally a huge bummer to be around and people don't really interest me too much.
Sports are boring as hell to me. I used to play tons of soccer, but I don't quite enjoy it all that often. Tried hiking and mountain climbing and never really enjoyed it. Even after dozen hour hikes, mostly just got a dull sense of meh.
Fair enough. Can I just say, you don't know for certain you're a huge bummer to all others. That is just your perspective. There are people who enjoy being around people who others consider a huge bummer.
I get that you don't like being around people yourself. But I know there are some who'd enjoy your company despite your own feeling. I don't have a magic solution for how to find such friends.
My only other suggestion, aside from speaking to a therapist, would be trying meditation. Taking a few deep breaths in a quiet space, sitting in a relaxed but upright position, and trying hard to think about nothing, or only your breath, for 20 minutes, can do wonders. It is harder than it sounds and can open your mind to a lot of possibilities that previously seemed impossible. I recommend the book Mindfulness in Plain English if you're interested to learn more. It's free and available online. You're as valuable as any other person on this planet. We're all equals. Once you believe that, you can do anything you set your mind to.
I don't recommend giving this advice to people who are seriously depressed. Speaking as someone who went through that for two years, it's more of a disease than a lifestyle problem. I could have done all these things and still have been miserably depressed.
What helped me was talk therapy, medication (the biggest factor), and having really supportive friends.
What is the process of talk therapy? Isn't it just asking questions? Did I actually give any advice there?
For sure friends are best. But if someone vents online, how are we to know whether this person will go elsewhere or not for support? I'm not offering to take the place of a professional but I wonder if it really hurts to converse with a depressed person online by asking questions. Silence certainly isn't helpful. And if everyone just says, seek professional help, is that really empathetic? Sounds a bit robotic to me.
Here we have a person expressing psychologic pain. And then another person, with no medical training and no psychologic training dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog". It's not a helpful way to give that advice. And it might not be useful advice.
> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible
How do you explain the meta-analyses that show weak results for exercise?
> However, it is not clear if research actually shows that exercise is an effective treatment for depression.
> Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression.
> Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies.
> Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies.
> The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive.
> The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive.
dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog"
Well, thank you. Apparently recommending to incorporate jogging is dismissing any possible other cause. Furthermore, I say that I still haven't beaten depression, even after doing sport, which implies that even I do not consider the lack of sport to be the only cause.
From your post it looks like exercise can have positive effects on depression. I haven't read anywhere here that it's the only solution. But it's sometimes as effective as other known treatments (according to your own link) and it's cheap and easy to implement.
Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either.
There are people in this thread crying for help. They are looking for advice. Yes, going to see a doctor should be at the top of your list. But let's not pretend the medical system is perfect, or that we all live in San Francisico with a ton of progressively thinking doctors. There's still a stigma with mental health, even in the medical field.
> Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either.
No, they don't. But they are more likely to work than exercise, and they're easier to try than exercise. The problem with recommending exercise is that it's not effective for most people, and can increase feelings of hopelessness and despair in people who try it but who see no effect. This makes it harder for them to seek help from a qualified professional. It also requires considerable effort - 30 minutes of exercise 5 times a week isn't something that most people with a severe depression can do. (And here the recommendation was more than that! 30 minutes a day.)
Here the suggestion was not "try exercise on top of seeing a doctor", the suggestion was "try exercise".
Don't forget that suicide is a leading cause of death (second leading cause of death in US males aged between 13 and 35 http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ ) so there's a risk of real harm here.
If people are going to give unsolicited medical advice to someone with a potentially fatal illness they should probably spend a bit of time to see if there's any evidence to support their advice, or they should make it much clearer that they're sharing their anecdotal experience in an attempt to empathise.
Every single time depression is mentioned on HN someone will say "try exercise".
It's a meme that needs to end because it's potentially harmful, mostly not helpful, and it can feel really dismissive to people with depression.
A reasonable person will not hear the suggestion "try exercise" and infer that since "drink water" was not mentioned, that they ought to stop drinking water.
Unless you have some weird heart condition, or are attached to an IV pole, or are not subject to the laws of gravity and therefore are in danger of floating off into space should you leave your apartment, exercise will probably not hurt you, and may possibly create a positive change in your circumstances, whatever they happen to be[1].
[1] I trust the majority of HN readers to figure out when disclaimers apply.
It's a great adjunct IMO, but it doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problem reliably. I got my usual run up to 21 miles before I developed fractures in my shins and the coping strategy fell apart. I should have spent some of that time with a doctor.
I get so tired of comments like yours. What are we supposed to do then? Just give up and watch them go? If someone can't or won't go to the doctor, they're done for? What about all of the other people reading, who might now or at some time in the future suffer from depression? Is it really 'irresponsible' to suggest that there are ways to prevent/decrease depression besides going to the doctor? Compare it to cancer. There are things people can do to lessen their risks for getting cancer. (Including exercising). Obviously if you have cancer, go to a doctor. But until then it's not irresponsible to suggest that you get some exercise. Or eat carrots, for that matter.
> I get so tired of comments like yours. What are we supposed to do then?
The best first advice is to get professional help. That doesn't mean "get drugs," it means start the evaluation process, which may or may not include drugs, therapy, exercise, whatever.
Go ahead and recommend exercise or herbal remedies or whatever, but I believe one should strongly direct a sufferer to professional help first. The closer and more credible to a person you are, that may be more like telling them to go, or even bringing them there.
Everyone's depression is unique to them. Sure the causes and treatment may be common with other people, but what works for one, or doesn't, is not necessarily the same for another.
Treatment for depression needs to be directed by a doctor or other trained professional.
Of course, suggest getting professional help first. But as a random internet board commenter, I can't drive them to the doctor. And for many people suffering from depression (I've been there, many of us have) getting to the doctor may as well be getting to the moon. But for me, if I could just get outside, things started to look just a little bit better, and maybe I could make it down the street. And then things looked a tiny bit better again, and pretty soon I could remember that there were people who cared about me. I doubt I'm entirely unique. Maybe there's someone reading this thread for whom the first step to getting help is just to get outside, and I'd call it irresponsible withhold that information.
> Maybe there's someone reading this thread for whom the first step to getting help is just to get outside, and I'd call it irresponsible withhold that information.
I don't think that's what the post I responded to was saying. I think the post I was responding to was recommending exercise as a treatment for exercise, not recommending just getting out of the house as a first step to seeing a professional.
> Of course, suggest getting professional help first.
the post I responded to did not do that.
You've described how hard it is sometimes to leave the house. Do you think it's realistic to expect a person in that situation to start doing 5 sessions per week, 30 minutes per session, of vigorous exercise?
Amen. The drones in this thread calling only for professional help and accepting no other comments are mind numbing and pedantic.
Depression can be deadly but it isn't the same as cancer. Good friends and family support and understanding don't make cancer any better. They may not always help with depression either but it is possible.
So, there is no problem calling for people to propose professional help first. But in a thread where that is mentioned a hundred times, to demand that every commenter preface their feedback with this line seems so pedantic to me.
But the "get some exercise" suggestion was not made as a way to build resilience to prevent depression! It was given as a method to treat a current illness.
If someone can't go to a doctor that's something that needs to be fixed, and if they can't go to a doctor they're unlikely to be able to get the 5 * 30 minutes per week vigorous exercise.
EDIT: I mean, it's an anecdote. "Exercise worked for me". The trouble is I can find you plenty of people (and I speak to them in mental health hospitals and community settings) who've tried exercise, and it didn't do anything and they felt worse because it didn't do anything.
It is really important for people taking mental health meds to get more exercise, but that's not because of the possible treatment effects of exercise, but to try to mitigate some of the side effects most meds have, and to try to build resilience for the future.
> Is it really 'irresponsible' to suggest that there are ways to prevent/decrease depression besides going to the doctor?
If the methods you suggest don't actually help, it risks making the depression worse, because it matches the pattern of "Why try anything? Nothing works.".
That seems like a better outcome all around than not knowing what to try. At least you know you have some options. For some people, it might help - at least enough to get them to the next step.
What I'm saying is that when you convince a depressed person to spend their scarce reserves of effort on useless measures, you risk diminishing their ability to convince themselves that the "next step" is worth taking.
Right. If you know the person well, you can probably make a reasonably good decision if it will help or hurt. But on a random internet message board, we don't. Undoubtably there are some people listening who would react as you've described, and some who might actually find a benefit from getting outside. So, if you're listening and suffering, go see a professional. Just keep in mind that if that seems impossible, start by getting yourself out the front door.
Doctors mostly do their work inside the system and their knowledge is limited to "legal" options. In my experience you cannot even mention weed without being stigmatized as a "drug user".
For me, weed works very well, I feel more energetic and happy as long as I can get my daily dose.
In the eyes of society I'm a criminal though... and that is something that makes me depressed. Quite a dilemma.
It's much more difficult to limit suicidal people's access to ropes, and suicides utilize firearms twice as often as ropes (at least in the US, apparently: http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide). Based on the 80/20 principle, rope control should come way after gun control (but general healthcare system changes should probably precede both).
A friend happened to call a few days later. He convinced me to schedule a doctor's appointment that day. Tip: The receptionist will find a slot the same day when you tell them you had to give your guns to a friend just in case. Be honest with them.
Sleep, light, medication,therapy, nutrition, hydration, friends you can call. Figuring it all out can be complex. Getting help is vital so keep looking until you find the help. Finding the right therapist may take a while.
It took me almost 10 years before I stopped having suicidal thoughts after my near miss. Another 5 years before I figured out one of the main reasons for what I was experiencing. Nearly 25 years total of the pain of depression because I figured I could handle it myself.
I was wrong.
Get the help.