Because the society and its obligations require it, as harsh as it sounds. I know Americans are all about the individual rather than the group, but seriously, how else do you fix centuries of injustice, other than by giving a leg up to the groups that have been discriminated against for a very very long time and denied those opportunities? Because places are limited, giving those people priority access means someone else loses out. Yes, it's unfair.
Let me go back to my example of Germany - German youth are very passionate, work very hard, they put in more time and passion into things....and yet can't have nicer living conditions, can't have better social care, better roads, better healthcare, better education, because their country is paying their taxes into foreign coffers for something that their grandparents did.
Once again I ask you, how is that fair to those young people who like you said - are very passionate and very hard working, now have to be denied certain things they want and pay for? They are the ones losing out for something they haven't personally done.
It's the same here. Yes, I'm truly sympathetic that a kid can get rejected from college because they are from the "wrong" social group, at absolutely no fault of their own. I truly am. But if society wants to repay its debt for the damages caused then that's one of the ways of doing this.
The other solution, of course, is to create enough places in higher education that no one gets rejected for any reason. But that's a system Americans are unwilling to pay for, so that's not a solution within that context.
The fact that you speak with such a reverence about racial segregation is truly frightening.
The fact that you think that would solve anything, despite centuries of evidence against it is even worse.
You will never be able to fix the past, nothing will ever bring back those people and they will never get a chance to live a just and fair life, let alone a happy one. It is unjust that it happened the way it did, it is sad, it is inexcusable, but it is also already done.
The only hope we have, and if we owe them anything we owe them this, is to create a better future by not repeating the mistakes of the past.
But instead you are doubling down on them. Dividing everyone again. Putting everyone in boxes and forcing them to give up their lives and dreams for them. Opening vicarious wounds and making people find a hate inside of them that was never there in the first place. And then wonder why the pushback.
I realize you think you have all the answers and that is why you speak with so much superiority from up high above the rest of us so I’ll never be able to change your mind, but for others that might be reading this, be very skeptical every time someone asks you to forget yourself and become a label, as that is what brought us here. You are better than a label, you are much much more than that.
What should be truly frightening is that you don't seem to believe that societies should take responsibilites for their mistakes and their wrongdoings. A group of people is opressed for centuries? Well, that's sad, but oh well?
"It is unjust that it happened the way it did, it is sad, it is inexcusable, but it is also already done."
Ok cool, I guess we just do nothing and live our lives. Millions of people being practically sentenced to poverty, to lack of healthcare and education, specifically because of systematic discrimination against them - well, bygones should be bygones, right? After all, I didn't do it, it was some other people who lived before me, why should I do anything now. Best we can do is give everyone equal opportunity, and ignore the fact that certain groups can hardly meet those "equal" standards due to systemic injustices that were done to them. Is that fair to you? Is that equal to you?
>>The only hope we have, and if we owe them anything we owe them this, is to create a better future by not repeating the mistakes of the past.
I'll use my German example for the 3rd and last time(I promise) - Obviously after WW2 ended the correct course of action for Germany wasn't to just say "well, the best we can do is just promise we'll never do this again". German people actively try to make it right for the countries they attacked, even if they make their own population poorer as a result. That's how you create the better future - by actively trying to make it right by the people who have been wronged, not just ignoring the issue.
>>so much superiority from up high above the rest of us so I’ll never be able to change your mind
The funny thing is, the exact same applies to you. I also won't be able to change your mind, you're also completely solid in your beliefs. But that's the nature of the discussion - you might be able to chip at my beliefs, I might be able to chip away at yours. The problem won't be decided in some HN comments after all.
You are arguing against what you think I’m saying instead of what I’m actually saying, so I’ll simplify it for you.
Oppression is the symptom not the cause. Segregation is the cause. Every time you promote segregation you are nursing oppression, and it will grow. Group-think is segregation.
I’m not saying do nothing. I’m saying don’t do what has already been proven not only to not work but to make things worse. Segregation makes things worse.
But you seem to equate the acknowledgement that some people have it worse with segregation. That by saying some social groups have it worse due to the centuries of injustices and therefore they should have temporary preferential treatment to reduce(key word here) their poverty levels is to perpetuate segregation. It's not, because the opportunities given to different groups are not equal specifically as the result of earlier segregation.
So if you don't help them out now, that's what's increasing segregation because their state doesn't improve, we never reach the state of equality of opportunity if some sides have a permanent handicap due to earlier injustices. You're saying that helping out is what perpetuates segregation - it's the exact opposite.
I think you are missing the point that the other poster is attempting to argue. If you look at the recent revival and rejuvenation of alt-right and far right politics that has recently occurred in the US and actually look at their media what it is that they are saying? It isn't some racist screed it is things like complaining that college admissions are no longer fair for white or asian males. Immigration issues are often framed as being not about hate of a minority but about the potential loss of opportunities for white/asian men in society.
The main complaint that has driven this entire recent cycle of upswing in alt-right and far right movements is this preferential treatment and critiques of it. Young white men who complain about college admission inequality get sucked into a siphon of hatred at inequality and preferential treatment that ends in racism. So like the other person was trying to argue, "helping out is what perpetuates segregation". This inequality breeds statistically significant increases in racial hatred even if it has a good intent.
That is like saying “don’t you understand! they were killed in the past, just let them do a little killing now to equilibrate things.”
Sometimes the opposite action is not what is needed to regain balance.
Affirmative action is what is keeping them poor. Segregation is what is keeping them poor. Give them special treatment and that is all you’ll make them, special, not equal. Integration, real integration which includes competition is what is needed. They need to earn their place because that is the only sure way they’ll keep it, and that is the only way others will respect them enough to treat them equally.
>> They need to earn their place because that is the only sure way they’ll keep it, and that is the only way others will respect them enough to treat them equally.
I mean, you went full on racist here. I imagine you weren't planning to, but just read that sentence back a few times.
It's like.....yeah we(as American society) treated you like shit, denied you every opportunity, and now the only way to make things right is for you to compete and prove that we can respect you and treat you equally.
Like, again, just read what you're even saying. It's far more scary than anything I've said.
If that's any consolation - so did I, but then you suggested that opressed groups have to earn respect to be treated equally. Should have come out with that line right at the beginning and saved us both a good amount of time.
Hey, I have read the discussion between you and insert_coin and I think you have slightly misunderstood what they are saying. From what I see, both of you are for improved lives of the historically-oppressed minorities in America. insert_coin said "I’m not saying do nothing" and I think that points to them disagreeing with the means taken to achieve the desired outcome (i.e. better lives for the minorities).
> "Because the society and its obligations require it, as harsh as it sounds."
As an Asian-American, I reject that Asians and other immigrants should be required to pay for the sins, whatever they may be, that white Americans have visited on black Americans in the past. If you're Asian and you're reading this, vote people who think as the above poster do out of office and make it clear why. We earned our place through hard work and education to become so capable that we couldn't be ignored in spite of racism against us. There's no reason we should be forced to sacrifice that for the ideological goals of others.
Yeah the American treatment of Asians at universities is dumb beyond belief, and it is racist. In fact the entire American implementation of affirmative action is dumb. We are in complete agreement.
Let me go back to my example of Germany - German youth are very passionate, work very hard, they put in more time and passion into things....and yet can't have nicer living conditions, can't have better social care, better roads, better healthcare, better education, because their country is paying their taxes into foreign coffers for something that their grandparents did. Once again I ask you, how is that fair to those young people who like you said - are very passionate and very hard working, now have to be denied certain things they want and pay for? They are the ones losing out for something they haven't personally done.
It's the same here. Yes, I'm truly sympathetic that a kid can get rejected from college because they are from the "wrong" social group, at absolutely no fault of their own. I truly am. But if society wants to repay its debt for the damages caused then that's one of the ways of doing this.
The other solution, of course, is to create enough places in higher education that no one gets rejected for any reason. But that's a system Americans are unwilling to pay for, so that's not a solution within that context.