Reading this has made me find words i've been looking for for months now, and maybe you will at least see these, hopefully even think about them:
As an idealistic goal your policies are great. In practice however i find they sorely underestimate the differential in effort required between:
- someone who has to censor their earnest thoughts preemptively to not be censured by you
and
- a troll gleefully dressing up words they know will hurt in dressing nice enough to fly under your radar
You're asking the former to spend a lot more time and work, than it takes the latter, for whom it's a form of playing, a game they enjoy. I don't have a solution, but i think it's true that your policies have a chilling influences on earnest voices and are creating a community where trolls are very loud.
Consider the possibility that what you perceive as "a troll saying intentionally awful things dressed up as polite language" may be a person who sincerely disagrees with you, and is also being polite about it. That seems to be the highest form of ideas interacting, no?
I was a bit unfocused, but I meant my comment to suggest that what you perceive as this community having a number of "loud trolls" may be overblown. I have been on HN for many years and the number of times I've seen a comment I considered intentionally hurtful (dressed up or otherwise) is vanishingly small.
To put it another way: you say that people who are merely politely disagreeing are in your category 1, but you also believe there is a problem on HN with "loud trolls" dressing up their comments to appear civil. That's counter to my experience here. YMMV etc of course.
I have considered this before even making the post. (I also have considerable experience with these biases because i have for years run a community with thousands of users visiting each day.) I could point out examples, but i don't think that would be productive.
Right now i'm thinking that your bias in perception is that you tend to look mostly at technical topics where there is no opportunity for this kind of rift without going obviously off-topic. (What your perception of HN is is highly determined by which comment threads you look at.)
This is a very good point. I saw almost zero troll comments over a few years but realized afyer your comment that I look only at technical or non controversial topics
If i felt comfortable discussing that in public i'd already have done so.
My point is that the state of things here is silencing voices who simply stop bothering to post, while you let toxic people and their posts remain after a slap on the wrist.
That is a risk we care about. But most people who make such claims turn out, when you look at the specific examples they come up with, mostly to want HN to be moderated to support their own side and penalize the other. Not intentionally, of course, but when you unpack what most people call fair vs. biased, that's what it amounts to. There are exceptions, but disappointingly few.
Most people have a tendency to see commenters we disagree with as disingenuous, the more so the more we disagree. This distorts perceptions. In my experience moderating HN, disingenuous trolls exist, but are less common than users misclassifying each other as such.
So while we're quite willing to moderate and ban accounts that abuse HN in the way you describe—and indeed have done so—we need specific links to evaluate. Otherwise the null hypothesis has to win.
You don't want to discuss it in public? Fine. Email them to dang. (His address is in his profile.)
And dang only lets toxic people and their posts remain for a little while. At some point, he kills their account. (His threshold may be higher than you'd like, but he does do it.)
Actually, you know what. Just ban me. This evening on this site has been another wasteful drain and i've barely even posted. I'm changing my email and password to random noise now.
I see you stand strong against people who say the right things with impolite words. Fine, your choice. But honestly, the more i watch these things the more i notice that you NEVER stand as strong against people who say vile hateful things in nice words.
Given this, it shouldn't be a surprise to you that people feel more and more that it's not worth to try and make an effort to stay nice if that's how "the top" behaves.
The user left of his own accord after that warning from dang.
By the way, if you're going to make claims like "you NEVER stand as strong against people who say vile hateful things in nice words", you really need to provide evidence.
It should be easy to prove with examples, and it would signal that you're acting in a good-faith effort to improve the site rather than just trying to attack dang personally.
Whether you're left or right is not classified by what you claim yourself to be, but how you act. And wanting to be nice to animals doesn't eradicate your stance on wanting to suppress diversity.
The accepted answer is decided by the person asking the question - I'm not sure SO moderators are allowed to change an accepted answer(at the very least, they're heavily disincentivized to do so). I think your example is a case for more moderation, not less.
> I don't see myself as a kind person and asking me to spend extra mental energy
If you can't be kind, then the preferred action from you is for you to save your energy for the days when you can be kind. That's better for everyone involved.
Of course there are mechanisms. For example it is super easy to tell if an asker is indian, by their name. And often women chose names that allow a good guess. Other hints may also be contained in the name. Then there is the profile image, and of course the bio. And lastly, often the question itself can contain details that hint at things.
Yes, people can hide these characteristics, but they shouldn't need to.
You have a reasonable reply by nookoking, but you probably can't see it because he's banned.
nookoking, if you see this, maybe mail the mods. I have no idea why you'd be banned, your history looks fine, but all but your very first post are dead.
As an idealistic goal your policies are great. In practice however i find they sorely underestimate the differential in effort required between:
- someone who has to censor their earnest thoughts preemptively to not be censured by you
and
- a troll gleefully dressing up words they know will hurt in dressing nice enough to fly under your radar
You're asking the former to spend a lot more time and work, than it takes the latter, for whom it's a form of playing, a game they enjoy. I don't have a solution, but i think it's true that your policies have a chilling influences on earnest voices and are creating a community where trolls are very loud.