I agree with everything you said but the liberals part... I think we should be careful to assume that all liberals are feminists. This can turn off the liberals that have noticed the misandry in feminism and are trying to learn more.

I agree that a job post for brogrammer might not seem welcoming towards woman.

>You realize that bro culture and brogramming are actual, existing things started by guys, yes?

Please tell us your definition of brogramming and brogrammer.

From watching the initial joke video on brogramers I understood that brogrammer is a prejudice term for male coder which likes to party, drink alcohol, flirting and is usually more interested in main stream culture. There is nothing wrong with any of those qualities but we still talk about brogrammers as bad people. Aren't we also sexist and prejudice?

What would you say about an equivalent sisgrammer term for woman?

I would say that you seem to have a poor understanding of pop culture in the US. Bro culture is a prexisting thing. See, e.g.: http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action...

It seems natural that very little attention is being placed on mans issues.

I think just selectively pointing out gender issues will not prove that the specific gender has it worse. I think instead of always assuming that woman has it worse we should also look at mens issues along with womans issues. This is difficult because humans have a tendency of protecting woman and not worrying much about men. Here is a video about this http://youtu.be/TBzx-SMSwGE and a paper (which I haven't got a chance to read completely) http://adamjones.freeservers.com/globe.htm

I can't find a good list of mans issues but here is a OK list. http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-top-10-issues-of...

This list does not contain issues like the rape of man by woman and other man, incarceration issues, man having a much higher death rate in the work place (more man at dangerous jobs), higher suicide rate of man, less men graduating college then woman, crazy rape laws like drink + sex = rape of woman but not man, tricky asking for consent = coercion = rape (at some colleges), draft only applies to man, millions of mostly male veterans committing suicide, male sexual mutilation & forced circumcision, domestic violence against man, legal paternal surrender/financial abortion, man are more likely to be assaulted and mugged then woman (even criminals tend to protect woman, see what happens to rapist in prison), in average man live less time then woman etc...

Note. Criticism of feminism is not necessarily anti-woman or anti-womans rights. I support womans rights like rights to chose.

Men's issues are feminist issues, and are best advanced by working with and as feminists.

I strongly disagree that the notion of patriarchy is inherently biased. It's a reasonably neutral description of a social system. For example, the Patriarch of Constantinople apparently likes the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople

Also, patriarchy doesn't imply that all men have incredible power, any more than institutionalized slavery meant that all white people had incredible power. Patriarchy also misuses men who step outside their role in the system, in the same way that white anti-slavery and anti-segregation activists were treated poorly.

It's true that critique of feminism is not necessarily anti-woman. Many feminists sometimes critique parts of feminism. However, when some guy turns up and turns a discussion of an actual woman's actual bad experience into a discussion of how oppressed he is by feminism, I'm still going to make some assumptions.

Sorry for the large reply but please bear with me.

>Also, patriarchy doesn't imply that all men have incredible power, any more than institutionalized slavery meant that all white people had incredible power. Patriarchy also misuses men who step outside their role in the system, in the same way that white anti-slavery and anti-segregation activists were treated poorly.

You are comparing patriarchy to slavery which implies that husbands have incredible power as slave lords of their wifes and that husbands are evil.

Even if you look at the past, by comparing husbands to slave lords you are forgetting that husbands where required to work to provide, care of wife and children, be legally accountable if their wifes committed a crime for their entire lives all by them selves. Wifes also had much more rights then slaves.

Although there are differences between how man and woman suffers in a patriarchy, its safe to say that in a traditionalist patriarchy both man and woman are less free.

I think instead of assuming that woman has it worse all the time we should take in consideration all gender and sex issues. You can look at my recent post for some examples of mens issues https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3768116

Please watch the Girl Writes What videos that I linked. While I don't agree with everything she says her videos are quite insightful.

>It's true that critique of feminism is not necessarily anti-woman. Many feminists sometimes critique parts of feminism. However, when some guy turns up and turns a discussion of an actual woman's actual bad experience into a discussion of how oppressed he is by feminism, I'm still going to make some assumptions.

This is the right time and place to discuss misandry since misandry and misogyny often happens in such discussions and is not out of topic.

You are making assumptions because I'm "some guy" how is that not sexist? How is comparing husbands to slave lords not sexist? Why do you despise and distrust your own sex?

In a previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3745578 you mentioned that only extremist feminists are sexist. I'm still not convinced that feminists are generally not sexist.

I don't agree that because there is misogyny we should forgive/turn a blind eye to misandry.

Please note that my posts are sincere and I'm open to different ideas and opinions.

> It implies that just by being a men one is in a more powerful and advantageous position.

All other things being equal, yes, a man is in a more powerful and advantageous position.

Obviously there are lots of individual women who are more powerful than individual men, and there are classes of women who are more powerful than other classes of men, but in general there are many advantages that men have that women do not. These advantages are a direct result of broad societal structures and cultural norms.

Yes, there are advantages that, in general, women have and men do not, but when you look at them they are almost always the result of sexist, patriarchal norms - e.g. the ideas that men are strong so they should never show weakness, strength is best displayed through through dominance, women are fragile and need men to take care of them, women are naturally better with children, etc. These problems are all tied up with each other.

I just wanted to point out that being anti-feminist does not necessarily mean anti woman or anti womans rights.

I do agree that sexist jokes are a bad thing and not only when done against woman.

I'd accept that from a womanist who feels white women's feminism has failed her, or a lesbian or trans woman fed up of being ostracised, or a poor woman annoyed at middle-class feminism's priorities.

But most groups who say "I'm not anti woman, just anti feminism" are flat out patriarchal, whether the flavour is religious or "men's rights", it's the same garbage.

And I won't accept it from a man at all.

>But most groups who say "I'm not anti woman, just anti feminism" are flat out patriarchal, whether the flavour is religious or "men's rights", it's the same garbage.

Unfortunately my perception is similar to yours. I have seen enough nut case traditionalists and misogyny to not want to get involved with mans rights movement. Traditionalist ideology hurts MRM and I feel they are shooting themselves on the foot by allowing this sort of thing.

This is why I can't see my self associating with MRM or Feminists. Both groups can be pretty extreme although both have some (in my opinion) good goals like womans rights to choose & legal paternal surrender.

Thank you for your comment.

edit: I must say that I have seen MRM people against traditional patriarchy. Their idea is that a patriarchy does not allow men to be free.

Yeah, patriarchy does hurt men. Gender policing, compulsory sexuality, enforced emotional shallowness, the breadwinner/nurturer split and its side effects in family law, even the classic apologia for the the glass ceiling uses the fact that women demand work/life balance - implying men can be overworked. But I can't see the MRM having an easy time admitting that while patriarchy does hurt men, it hurts women worse.

If they admitted that, they'd be feminists.

Are you saying that porn only objectify woman?

I see the sexual objectification concept often used as a way to demonise natural human sexual attraction. If man and woman ignored physical appearance and resourcefulness we would probably be extinct by now.

AFAIK, ycombinator forum software does not make a sex/gender distinction. I don't see how it could be sexist.

Being labeled a sexist is a terrible thing. Saying that a discussion by man on the subject is sexist seems potentially sexist because it implies that man should not discuss because they are man.

You deny her very experience?

georgieporgie is not a her https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3737621

He can't possibly have experience with ALL males of 25 - 35 in the industry. Making such a general statement can be perceived as misandry.

EDIT: My reaction was similar to how some people react to "I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old immature bitches/sluts ."

I will consider the comment on reading comprehension and sensitivity.

The gender pronoun wasn't actually relevant but thanks for doing research!

Georgieporgie is tired of working with 25 - 35 year old man children. How is that hating all men or generalizing to all men? In fact he specifically said "working with" as in he actually worked with these people.

You seem awfully sensitive.

Is there a relation between visuospatial ability and programming ability?

You should check out Top Secret Rosies documentary (its on netflix). They were the pioneers of computing.

As for the reason there are less woman in tech... This article might be interesting http://blog.jolieodell.com/2010/09/07/women-in-tech/

I searched for brogrammer with Indeed, simplyhired, startuply and craigslist and haven't found a single job opening. The "brogrammer" buzzword does not seem to be a trend.