I think this is bullshit. It's like saying, "I'm not racist, my friend Bob is black."
You don't get a "get outta jail free" card for saying "I love CHinese people" and "oorah for China devs" and then heaping shit all over their country's achievements the rest of the time.
Do people who say this think they understand China or Chinese people even a little bit?
> and then heaping shit all over their country's achievements the rest of the time.
I didn't say that anywhere. China's achieved a lot, in amazing ways. My comment said nothing about that.
> Do people who say this think they understand China or Chinese people even a little bit?
- Have you been to China, invited by their government in an official delegation and seen first-hand the mob-like lack of distinction between business and government, the nepotism, and the opaque vista of corruption, like I have?
- Have you had more than one Chinese national as a romantic partner, like I have?
- Have you worked and studied extra-curricularly with Chinese people for much of of your life, like I have?
- Have you learned Mandarin at age 18, like I have?
I think I "understand China or Chinese people" more than the average non-Chinese person.
But even that I think doesn't count for much. Chinese people don't share their real cultural opinions with people in the West much, including my ex-partners.
I still have lots more to learn about the very contrasting popular opinions there and slowly understand some of it. I respectfully listen to pro-government Chinese people who occasionally appear on HN, and engage with them with an open mind, though with no concession granted in regards to expectation of intellectual honesty. Recently in my comment history, there's one such conversation. I gave a very unforgiving rebuttal to their comment, but I respected them by not just downvoting, but engaging. We really should talk more.
It appears you're a non-Chinese person who's been triggered by my comment based on other experiences. I really invite you to not 'other' individual people like me as faceless "people" like you just did. In contrast, it would have been great to hear from a thoughtful Chinese person.
Triggered sounds like irrational and unhinged so...if it's what you need to say about other people's views to (in your mind) censor them and protect your own views, I get it, but I'm afraid it makes you a less trustworthy assessor!
It sounds like you've confused "identity" with opinion. I wasn't saying, "you are bullshit", and I'm sorry that you seem to have taken it like that. I was saying "I think that (view you write) is bullshit". I wasn't trying to offend you.
But also, to assume that had I had the experiences you list, I would arrive at your conclusion is incredibly narrow minded (and, to be honest, arrogant), and makes me trust even less that you would be able to see beyond the nose of your existing biases and consider others with different views... Because it's a big world out there, plenty of room for differences of opinion and experience.
The false dichotomy between "the Chinese state/government and the Chinese people" is a common Western propaganda tactic I've noticed to, exactly as I said, seem like you're not being racist when you are. And, unfortunately for you, god bless you, you've done exactly as I predicted, "I'm not racist because look at all the connections I have"
You didn't go on to criticize anything beside saying you don't "trust" the government, but I'm great at reading between the lines, and reading people and I know the type of argument you're hinting at and where it goes.
It reminds me that people don't hold these anti-China views from ignorance, simply because they've carried a Western-propaganda mindset into their own affairs. It seems like in your jaunts you forgot to check your pre-existing biases at the door/luggage-check counter.
Which, so far, has meant, not that you don't have enough experiences to think about and understand China, but only that you've so far failed to properly think about them, being blinded by your biases. So far, you've wasted those experiences you have by not yet thinking clearly about them. I'm not sure where you're from (and I don't care here because it doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter where I'm from or who I am, what matters is the quality of my thought and my ability to think clearly, critically and for myself, as I hope you can too), but here's a video of a white dude saying something that is mostly correct. I don't know him nor anything else about him but this is about right:
Now to everyone else, because it sounds like you will find this very hard to listen to right now, I think a good antidote to the fake narrative that "the Chinese government does not represent the Chinese people" is history. China in 20C had the bloodiest most awfully brutal civil war for the last 400 years. It was a popular revolution overthrowing a corrupt, lazy, anachronistic, incompetent dynasty (and then republic) and basically stretched from 1911 to the end of the cultural revolution. Then, the governing system they created out of this, has gone about in the last 70 years lifting more people out of poverty than anywhere else, and building something truly amazing. I hope you'll, you know, give the Chinese and their system some credit. Anyway...my point is, that if the Chinese people are not happy with their government, there's no other place on earth where the government would be more afraid of their people's wrath than China. Just look at the history. Look at the hunger they have for creating a better life. Look at how the government is forced to deliver. And look at the complacent stagnation and lazy woolly propagandist rest-on-yer-laurels thinking that has metastasized in most of the Western world.
So, contrary to the popular, but incorrect anti-China notion that you can't trust the Chinese government, I think you can trust them more than any other place on Earth right now to deliver as they say, and to deliver results for their citizens. Simple as that, really. And I think most Chinese are proud and happy to have such a system.
This shrieking Western hysteria smacks (to me, anyway) of bitter nostalgia for imperial glory-days where we could pull off stunts like "the treaty of Nanking" and "the Opium War", the "United East India Company" and wiping out native populations of N and S American, and Australian aborigines.
I'm not anti-West. I'm just balanced between both places. And speaking up against the river of fake and negative opinion, which, in my view, only serves to hasten the West's demise by blinding them to what they could learn, and giving them the fake pay off of feeling good by (doing that old colonial thing) of putting other people down and pretending they're better.
But to bring it back to you finally... if you want to make it about identity, then sure, I'm just more cosmopolitan than you are. In your future jaunts, I hope you're able to see beyond the veil and check those implanted biases with other stuff you don't need. So you can finally see clearly. Best of luck! :P ;) xx
As soon as I hit 'send' on my message I knew someone would agree because more people in FOSS is a great thing, but someone else would find a way to make the followup comment look racist.
It sucks that I can't even say 'I love Asians' without being tagged as racist. It sucks that I can't have prejudice against or for some people. We are not all equal, and if you pretend we are, YOU are racist. I recommend the sketch 'I don't see race' by collegehumor: https://youtu.be/5qArvBdHkJA
I repeat what I said countless times the past few years: A country is not its people. Even if you pretend it's a democracy.
That said, I hate America for ruining the world's economy and environment. I love most Americans though. Hang in there.
edit: all fixed now, correct certs are back. I had switched branches and the changes came into effect when server restarted, including different certs.
interesting. it seems to me that if Google really wanted to influence Australian public opinion, they have far more sophisticated ways to go about it than this clumsy attempt at PSA outreach slash fear mongering. It's almost as if they need to be seen to be taking some responses to the media payment legislation but they don't really care. That's what's interesting to me. I wonder why they would not care.
perhaps because they have inside knowledge that the legislation is a dead duck and the government doesn't intend to follow through but perhaps the government is simply doing this for whatever reasons maybe political points with the population.
I have no doubt that the Australian government and Google play a delicate dance with each other while they both cooperate and see that they both get the outcomes they both want. so the gloss that this is all about consumers, spouted by both sides, I think is false.
Google's entire business depends on being squeaky clean. If they ever got caught doing "sophisticated" opinion influencing, they'd lose half their value overnight as customers switched to alternatives. And then every democratic government would join in with a serious kicking, given their elections are so vulnerable to said influencing.
I think Facebook sails very close to the wind here, but my impression is that Google's management is a lot more professional about protecting their business long term. So I'd be suprised if they tried any dirty tricks.
However, their efforts won't be limited to open letters. There will be some very high-powered lobbying going on, and I bet this letter is mostly to frame that debate to counter the lobbying from Murdoch's empire. All in all, a great time to be an Aussie politician - a lot of very expensive trips, lunches and other inducements coming there way.
I know it's not a common opinion, but I believe that other than the rational argument you presented (which I agree with) I do think it's also a matter of values and mentality.
Yes Google is a big org, their business is problematic, and they do crap at times. But I think their mentality is much more less Machiavellian than Facebook.
I believe the "do no evil" as a compass, they might not always adhere to that as you or me may perceive it (after all, it is rather subjective), but it does seem to somewhat guide their actions.
I doubt this. we are beholden to Google. we can't just go elsewhere even if we disagree with some things some people in Google do. advertiser or consumer. or government. they ain't losing half their business anytime soon, no matter what kind of things they pull.
> It's almost as if they need to be seen to be taking some responses to the media payment legislation but they don't really care
They care. I'm currently situated in Australia and did a random google search and a giant popup jumped up saying "The way Aussies use Google is at risk". No way they are doing that on their main search page if they do not care.
That's more like it. if it was just that letter and PR release I'd be surprised. but even so... I think it's just for show.
remember news Corp is not just an Australian company. this could be part of a bigger game between Google and newscorp, and between newscorp and the aus gov.
My guess, is that they will comply by either giving the media a copy of their "Quality Raters Guidelines", or just setup an office where the media can send staff to sit at a slow computer and view a billion lines of source code.
hehehe. yeah the due diligence document room. and lots of minified JavaScript UI code.
I love how companies can say complying with legislation would be overly burdensome. and how governments can make laws that have no technical reality. the interface between tech and law is pretty leaky and inefficient.
You don't get a "get outta jail free" card for saying "I love CHinese people" and "oorah for China devs" and then heaping shit all over their country's achievements the rest of the time.
Do people who say this think they understand China or Chinese people even a little bit?