> You spend so much time fighting macOS animations and keyboard layouts that I am surprised you have any time left to actually use the computer you keep threatening to replace with a Framework
Yep that’s me.
As for 2026 prediction:
> You will write a 4,000-word HN essay arguing that Silksong’s difficulty curve is a direct allegory for the South Korean 'Hagwon' education system.
People are knee-jerking at “anti-feminism” part of Lee which I admit would look pretty off-putting to anyone who is not familiar with what’s going in South Korea.
“Feminism” in Korea has taken on a different meaning sadly. I’ve commented in HN before at how abhorrent women’s right has been in Korea, especially up to my mother’s generation. It really has drastically improved last 20 years. However, many young men feel like the pendulum has swung too much to the other direction. Society still expects men to do “manly things” (mandatory army service, physical labour etc) but girls around their age get policy benefits instead. I’m not going to into whether this feeling is justified or not. But wanted to point out most don’t want women’s right to regress to their mom’s generation. They just want to feel like they are treated equally in society.
You caution against a knee jerk reaction to Lee’s anti-feminist views but the background you provide does not actually justify your implication that South Korea may be a special case.
A feeling that “the pendulum has swung too much in the other direction” characterizes pretty much any modern reactionary anti-feminist movement in any country. And like in other countries, these feelings aren’t really borne out by the stats [0].
As far as I can tell, the only unique element of the South Korean anti-femenist movement is how mainstream it is. But that doesn’t mean whatever (knee jerk) reaction one might have to an anti-feminist politician at home wouldn’t apply to one in South Korea.
> your implication that South Korea may be a special case
Well, I genuinely think the word "feminism" means different thing in Korea to the places I've lived at. It has much more inflammatory undertone there whereas in NZ, its just a term. When I see "anti-feminism" for Korean politician, I construe it to be "anti radical feminism". That's what I was trying to get at.
> these feelings aren’t really borne out by the stat
Those stats you've linked are pretty controversial: one says 10th and the other says 118th.
> Due to the various methods of calculating and measuring gender inequality, South Korea's gender inequality rankings vary across different reports. While the 2017 UNDP Gender Inequality Index ranks South Korea 10th out of 160 countries, the World Economic Forum ranks South Korea 118th out of 144 countries in its 2017 Global Gender Gap Report
I think there are still gender inequality in Korea. The reason I'm defending them is that I just don't want people to label fair bit of young Korean men to be misogynist and write them off. Their struggles are real and if we keep marginalising them I don't think it would get any better.
> Well, I genuinely think the word "feminism" means different thing in Korea to the places I've lived at. It has much more inflammatory undertone there whereas in NZ, its just a term. When I see "anti-feminism" for Korean politician, I construe it to be "anti radical feminism". That's what I was trying to get at.
Any active, non-historical example of feminism is likely to be considered radical. I think for us to have a reasonable discussion, you’d need to define what radical feminism means to you.
Otherwise what you’re saying is practically equivalent to “Koreans are fine with good feminism, but draw the line at bad feminism”. Which, besides being tautological, is just a rephrasing of the pendulum thing.
> I think there are still gender inequality in Korea.
It seems we agree the issue that feminism aims to solve still exists in South Korea?
> The reason I'm defending them is that I just don't want people to label fair bit of young Korean men to be misogynist and write them off. Their struggles are real and if we keep marginalising them I don't think it would get any better.
I think it’s very possible to point out actions and beliefs rooted in misogyny while also recognizing that the people expressing those beliefs have real struggles. I think people can change and even if they won’t, you can still be empathetic.
I don’t see any inherent marginalization in noticing misogyny. These men are facing real problems. But a lot of the blame for these problems is likely misdirected.
> However, many young men feel like the pendulum has swung too much to the other direction. Society still expects men to do “manly things” (mandatory army service, physical labour etc) but girls around their age get policy benefits instead. I’m not going to into whether this feeling is justified or not.
Oh that’s okay I’ll say it - privileging women over men, and enacting a double standard where men are expected to comfort to a gender role whole women aren’t is NOT FEMINISM.
Feminism is not ‘the pendulum.’ If every aim of feminism were realized, men and women and all people would be equal. The goal of feminism is not a retargeting of supremacy, it is the destruction of supremacy in the first place.
There is really only one kind of person who throws around terms like ‘anti-feminism’ and ‘the pendulum had swung too far’ and I don’t think I need to waste my breath describing them, because every single one of us reading is intimately familiar with them.
Yeah, I'd express doubt. I do agree that South Korean feminist movement contains some batshit crazy elements, but those anti-feminist young Korean men aren't much better.
Both sides love to fixate on crazy crime stories to make themselves feel like victims. If a Korean man murders a woman, that's femicide and an example of how Korean men behave in general. If a bunch of Korean women share nude photos of men in a website, that's how they're wannabe rapists and an example of how Korean women behave in general. Yada yada.
The young men also opposes any kind of DEI, whether it's for women, rural provinces, or people from poor families, thinking that they are the competent people oppressed by the society. They also denigrate older men in their forties (who happen to be much more left-wing in general), thinking that those oldies were the lucky generation because when they were young jobs were plenty and there were less competition.
Never mind that those old men started their careers with 6-day weeks and horrible safety conditions. Such jobs are still plenty as they were in 1990s, it's just that they're so comparatively shitty that only migrant workers would be willing to fill those positions.
Funnily enough, it looks like fewer and fewer young men are supporting Lee Jun-Seok in recent months. It looks like Yoon's political suicide (via martial law) for the conservative faction did affect Lee in the long term. (It didn't help Lee Jun-Seok that the new president, Lee Jae-Myung, is more politically savvy and is publicly willing to talk about whether young men are feeling the "reverse discrimination" and what the government could do about it.)
It really reads as exactly the evil victim mentality of the people wildly overrepresented at the top that we get in the US. The military service thing is obviously a real issue, though, but I don't know why that wouldn't be solved by forcing women into mandatory public service in the same way a man with a disability would be. Is it just that Korea doesn't have the social services to absorb the manpower?
Military service is also a benefit that women don't get, too. They don't get to make the connections in the military that would help them along in their careers.
> They just want to feel like they are treated equally in society.
Shouldn't you wait until your country is half run by women before claiming oppression? Until your boss and CEO are as likely to be women as men? I feel like this stuff it bought into by marginal men who are oppressed by other men of a higher class, and average women catch all the flack because they're simultaneously accessible and denying marginal men what they want on a daily basis. They don't see upper-class men as enemies because they don't ever see upper-class men; when they hear about upper-class cruelty, they fantasize about the revenge they would take if they were in power, especially on the women who say no.
In Korea, the anger about conscription just gives them a semi-legitimate gripe that seems like it should be taken away by conscripting women.
> Shouldn't you wait until your country is half run by women before claiming oppression? Until your boss and CEO are as likely to be women as men?
Well boss and CEO's generation _were_ heavily discriminated and no one disputes that. For younger generation who are working, they go through 2 years of military service, then sees women in their generation go on a trip to find herself instead, then gets "preferential treatment" at work (e.g. woman police officer goes up 2 rank for giving a person in distress their jacket). Meanwhile, men are expected to financially contribute more for marriages. So now you get this explosive cocktail of resentment: it's hard to get well-paying jobs + have to go to the army + other societal expectation for manhood.
Disclaimer: I don't think it's _that_ bad but I don't live in Korea, and I have lost friends for claiming this.
> I feel like this stuff it bought into by marginal men who are oppressed by other men of a higher class
Yes, there is some truth to this. Korean media is actively fuelling this outrage but I don't think you can't generalize it to everyone who supports it. Funnily enough, latest social discourse is around "Young Forties" (so older men with more social status), so now they are trying to stir up some discourse between generations.
> In Korea, the anger about conscription just gives them a semi-legitimate gripe that seems like it should be taken away by conscripting women.
I do think they should conscript women even for social services and that would quench most of the frustration from young men. But man suggesting this would get mocked for being so petty i.e. "not manly". Politicians also stay well away from this as it would be a political suicide. So where do these marginalised men go? To Lee and anyone who'd listen to them.
Edit: Once you delve deeper into this topic, Korea's abysmal birthrate of 0.68 will really make sense :p
> It really reads as exactly the evil victim mentality of the people wildly overrepresented at the top
The people at the top don't have a victim mentality because they're successful. However, there are a lot of people who aren't at the top, who aren't doing great, but on the basis of their gender are told that they deserve dispreferential treatment because there's more of their gender at the top of society. I don't see how that makes them evil. Perhaps I'm just totally misunderstanding your point though.
> Military service is also a benefit that women don't get, too. They don't get to make the connections in the military that would help them along in their careers.
They can volunteer if they wanted those supposed benefits. Seems weird to try to make conscription sound like it has positives when it's just purely negative.
> Shouldn't you wait until your country is half run by women before claiming oppression? Until your boss and CEO are as likely to be women as men?
This is an overly simplistic view of "oppression". Do you think that men as a whole somehow benefit from there being an over representation of their gender at the top of society? That despite struggling to survive, because we share the same gender that we aren't suffering or that we can't be oppressed?
It's like people blame all men for the actions of our ancestors and want to take revenge or something. It's really weird.
Men don't know what oppression is. It is as simple as that.
When we get attacked on our privilege, we feel as if it were a mortal wound.
I completely agree with you. Men pull out the victim card like it was the easiest thing in the fucking world. Of course, if anything happens, it's the fault of those weaker than us.
That's because we aspire to be them. To be the oppressors. There won't be any liberation, just a change of guard.
I fucking hate men and masculinity. This is the poison that will lead to humanity's extinction.
I mean there are other factors right? How long the rate is fixed for, penalty for paying off early, what you think the rate will be after term is over, you and your family's circumstances etc.
Meh (ctrl alt shift) and hyper (ctrl alt shift cmd). And I bind caps lock to meh on long press and esc on tap.
This gives me plenty of easily reachable hot keys. Eg I can switch between spaces with meh + number. I have terminal hot window bound to meh + space. Moving focus between windows is meh + hjlk.
“Just rendering a component” takes thousands of nested function calls, covering a million lines of code; it’s not possible for a person to read or understand the whole process unless they dedicate months to it.
Sure it adds complexity, but isn't that what abstractions are for? We are talking about grokking how data flows in _a web app in Rails_. I wouldn't think usual workflow requires going into actual inner workings of React :p
Well React doesn't come by itself. You need a router, probably some way of managing shared state, bundling, compiling your TypeScript, and 7 other libraries
The more stuff you add on the harder everything is to understand, and the less stable your app becomes until suddenly you need specialists for every piece just to keep things chugging forward. Everything needs greasing and maintenance over time..
..and then in 4 years the React team decides "oh you know what the way Svelte is doing things is actually way better.. we'll need a re-write to integrate their ideas". Now what?
"that wouldn't happen! so many businesses depend on React!".. uh they have no obligation to make things compatible with whatever you've built. They're not working for you. What happened with AngularJS? Vue 2?
Hotwire is easy to understand (React "just renders it" is a massive oversimplification)
If Hotwire rewrites? I create a private fork and continue on. Who cares
If I want to tweak how Hotwire works cause it'll benefit my app specifically? I do it myself
I'm not against adding complexity.. but if you care at all about longevity and long-term productivity then adding React really needs a tonne more consideration than it gets
I think we fundamentally agree that we want to be careful about adding complexity to a project. Funnily enough there have been many times where I really thought Hotwire equivalent would have cut down a lot of complexity. I've also actively looked at web components at work and for hobby projects to see if we could make/keep things simpler.
But maybe I'm biased because I've been working with React for a long time, I don't find it too daunting to manage dev tools around React. When React was young, I remember that there were _a lot_ of ecosystem churn but now it's more-or-less settled and I don't think it's too bad.
I don't know how Hotwire works that well as most of my experience is around Elixir's LiveView, but at least for LiveView, there is also quite a bit going on under the hood to make it performant for large lists and to handle error states gracefully. And I (maybe incorrectly) assume Hotwire is similar, so I feel like it may not be not as simple as you say. (Edit: it is simpler than React though!)
It also doesn't need to be all or nothing. I've become a big fan of progressive enhancement or an islands approach. Default to SSR and scale it up as needed
Once you give up any hope of understanding the inner workings of the frameworks you are using, you're no longer a programmer, you're a cargo cultist. Now compound this a dozen levels deep, with systems piled on systems built by people who don't understand the other systems they are building on top of, and you have the current mess.
Every engineer in our industry is a Cargo cultist by that definition. Including experts. Where do you draw the line? I'm sure you have one, but your line is no less arbitrary than mine or someone elses.
A competent programmer should be able to at least conceptualise every level from the transistor up - not necessarily completely understand, but at least know roughly what it does, and what it rests on, and what rests on it. Transistors, gates, logic, state machines, instruction sets, assemblers, parsers, compilers, interpreters, operating systems, memory allocation, graphics, browsers, that sort of thing. Not at all unreasonable for someone with a decent computer science degree, surely?
Of course, you don't have to know any of that to grasp how to bang a page together with today's web frameworks; but you end up with the resource-hogging unmaintainable security disaster that is the modern web in the process.
Ok, but I've worked with people who are pretty good with web dev, but I guarantee you they don't know how memory gets requested from the operating system.
Like, sure it helps in some contexts, but in their context it would largely be irrelevant.
For the wast majority of people, it's fine for them to know basic tradeoffs between stdlib container types. Most web performance problems today come from misusing tools, whether container types, bad algorithms, memory leaks (and I don't think knowing how an OS manages memory would help them in JS for example), DOM pollution, or oversized assets or whatever. And my take is that that people are often too overworked to care about it, rather than lacking awareness about these things lol
On the other hand, if you're a systems engineer, then you absolutely do needs to know all of this stuff.
And I bet you they'd navigate stuff like better than a systems engineer, because that's more useful to their day to day!
Exactly. You don't need to really know how to program to use web frameworks, and web programmers are much cheaper than systems engineers. It's a no-brainer in short-term business terms. But there's a always a price to be paid for decisions like this, and this overhead is it.
Experience of similar tradeoffs tells us it will only get worse over time, and LLM-generated web programming will make the whole process get even worse even faster.
And you think slapping ActiveRecord to a Ruby class doesn't hide thousands of lines of code?
Do you need a truly holistic and in-depth understand of every piece you use? How in-depth does you understanding need to be to use ActiveRecord/ActionCable/etc? What about underlying libraries? Protocols? Engine internals?
Do you need an in depth and holistic understanding of React and all its dependencies to write () => <div>Razzle Dazzle</div>? Nah, surely not
I don't think a typical React rendering call is even 100 calls deep. React itself adds maybe a dozen frames. Your components could be complicated, but likely they don't add more than another dozen or two. React is pretty efficient if you hold it right, and use for its intended purpose, that is, large and complex interactive UIs.
The event handling alone is almost a hundred calls deep. Because a lot of the work is happening asynchronously, you won't see most of it when stepping through the debugger starting from a click handler for example, but try adding a breakpoint to the compiled JSX.
With fibers (React >16) and a couple commonly used hooks you'll easily hit a thousand high call stack.
Do you mean that the async chains of something().then(somethingElse()).then(...), into which async/await code desugars, grow 1000 levels deep? I never encountered it, but, OTOH, I did not research this in particular. V8 very definitely does not produce a call stack out of it, but schedules every new Promise as a separate task. (A bit like a Lisp threading macro.)
So, what forms 1000 levels of nested calls? Is that anything specific to React? I'm very curious now!
I meant the actual React code: handling the click event, running the component code, resolving dependencies and running hooks, building the virtual dom then handing off to react-dom for reconciliation, scheduling updates, and finally modifying the DOM. Not your application code.
The async comment was to point out that if you attach a breakpoint to your `onclick` handler, you will reach 'the end' of execution after less than a hundred function calls. But the actual work (see above) inside react and react-dom hasn't even started, as it's pushed to a queue. This may give the impression that far less code is running than actually is.
This is still in context of "you can read through the library's codebase and understand what it's doing fairly easily"; so yes, it's specific to React being very complex vs something like htmx, which most devs could understand in its entirety in one afternoon.
Most JSX expands to a single expression, but I guess you mean a single component? I'm not sure what controversial here. I've attached debuggers to React component many times
This does not change if you write pure Javascript that directly mutates DOM without calling any intermediate functions.
Given the speed of rendering that browsers achieve, I would say that their call stack during this is highly optimized. I don't see OS doing much at all besides sending the drawing buffers to the GPU.
And also, that with React you are not only buying into React, but also a JavaScript dependency manager/package manager. Be it NPM, or any other. Installing JS package itself already comes with its own problems. And then probably people buy into more stuff to install through that package manager. Some component library and a "router" here, some material style and a little library to wrap the root node with some styling provider or what it is called there, ... before you know it, a typical FE dev will have turned your stack into 80% React and related dependencies and the maintenance on that will continue to grow, as new features "can be solved sooo easily, by just adding another dependency" from the NPM/React world.
One of the workers jumped off a building. [1] They say the person was not being investigated for the incident. But I can’t help but think he was a put under intense pressure to be scapegoat for how fucked up Korea can be in situations like this.
To be some context on Korea IT scene, you get pretty good pay and benefits if you work for a big product company, but will be treated like dogshit inside subcontracting hell if you work anywhere else.
I mean I agree with hiring juniors. I try to push for it as it’s how I got into this industry but it’s a bit of a prisoners dilemma right? It’s best for everyone if we all hired and trained up juniors but one could also defect and only hire seniors.
Besides most companies won’t last long enough to worry about senior talent drying up.
Not just abduct people and deport them. Abduct people, put them into jail cells and block their release as a bargaining chip in order to backstab one of the closest allies.
Yep that’s me.
As for 2026 prediction:
> You will write a 4,000-word HN essay arguing that Silksong’s difficulty curve is a direct allegory for the South Korean 'Hagwon' education system.
Yeah I can see that happening.