I'm saying this as a German, i strongly reject those accusations. Do not buy from VW group (and not from PSA/Stellantis (Citroen, Fiat, Opel etc brands), either).
I have been driving VW for decades. Never had any issue apart from some Apple CarPlay snags. Drove Golf, Touran and Tuiguan Allspace. Always a pleasure.
The headliner has come undone in every VW ive had and the DSG is great when great, and has… character otherwise.
The aftermarket support is awesome and you’ll always find some nerd that knows all the quirks and how to fix them though. I work on my cars and while sometimes the engineering decisions are over complicated and you need all the specialized tools, some are clever and I appreciate them.
Looking at getting a Golf R once our Prius gives me an excuse (just got rear ended and the thing doesn’t even chirp, squeak or complain, so I might be waiting for a while).
Our passat has been so much better than our previous Kia and Renault, at least. 10 years without any non-normal breakage, a water pump did break and for some reason that is considered normal. If thats all that breaks during this time I am happy enough.
Japanese is maybe even better, but I just cant get over the styling.
Mazdas too. I find Toyota's suspensions and driving dynamics terrible. Mazda represents a perfect combination of good Japanese reliability and good handling dynamics. I also like that they still offer a proper automatic transmission in their cars (as opposed to the CVT epidemic in other makes), as well as naturally aspirated engine options (whereas many other makes only offer turbos now).
The days of their collaboration with Ford are long gone, and with it their body durability problems. They still collaborate with Toyota though.
My 2014 Mazda 3 has fairly regular infotainment issues, audio playing on my phone but no audio from the speakers, resolved by rebooting it.
Also had an issue with the backup camera cutting out. Was caused by a loose connector. Dealership was unwilling to help for free so I just cleaned the contacts and reseated the connector myself. Months later I received a recall notice with no fix available, still more months later hey finally said there was a repair but I haven’t brought it in yet.
All that said I’m still happy with the car despite these imperfections and will keep driving it until the wheels fall off, and wouldn’t have any reservations about buying a new one.
I mean, the rear window was still transparent it’s not like a couldn’t see where I was going entirely. I did miss the much wider FOV of the camera when backing out of my garage though.
Maybe they are better now, but I had two Mazdas between about 2005 and 2015. They were fine for the most part, but their frames rusted out and had to be scrapped well before the rest of the car was worn out. They're not really suitable for long-term use in the midwestern/northeast US salt belt unless you're a high-roller who only leases cars.
Yes, but the Mazdas we had were worse than average. They were made of thinner gauge metal than I've seen on any other car (both frame and body panels) and I they didn't bother to add even a token amount of paint or other rust prevention.
Mazda is responsible for one of the biggest reliability cock-ups in modern automotive history. A lot of Americans are not aware of this because this generation of diesel motor didn't make it to the American market but for many years they sold cars with a diesel engine with multiple critical manufacturing and design issues that resulted in thousands and thousands of defective engines. In many markets this was never recalled and at least in some markets Mazda's response was to draw another line higher up on diesel dipsticks so the owner could monitor if their crankcase was filling up with diesel, which would eventually dilute the engine oil and destroy the turbo and other components.
In my country used car dealers will not touch Mazda diesels for trade-ins because they always come back to them with destroyed engines.
You've gotta be in Australia because I had a cx-5 2014 2.2 TD and it was a nightmare. I'll never buy a Mazda again. You know its bad when years after the warranty has expired Mazda are fixing head gaskets or outright replacing engines for free.
I had a sub 5sec 0-60 Miata set up for the track and I gotta tell you that I can whip our Prius much more than I thought was possible. Camry is a barge though.
My mother has had two of them and they are very fun to drive -- even completely stock. The first was a 91 (how I learned to drive a manual transmission) and the second/current is a 2005. The newer one is more powerful (not sure how many HP but it seems significant) but I still prefer the older one. The design was peak 80s Japanese functional minimalism and there was no magic behind any of its features.
However, as it applies to the parent comment, I can't actually say too much about reliability, as both of them were driven primarily on weekends and _maybe_ 2K miles per year.
I own a 2011 3 hatchback, bought new in 2010. Besides wear items, I think I’ve replaced one belt and one hose. It’s only on its third battery and 2nd/3rd lightbulbs all around. Absolutely the most reliable car I’ve ever owned, whether I measure by problems/mile, problems/year, or dollars/year.
I also have a Miata (ND - 4th gen) that gets driven less than 3K miles/year. No problems there other than Mazda’s buggy CarPlay (and insane choice to disable the touchscreen when in motion).
I believe there’s a way to enter dev mode on the infotainment and reenable the touch screen while in motion. Try looking on YouTube. I found the method for my 2014 but neglected to actually do it since I prefer the center console wheel anyway.
From what I know, Mazdas are the most European Japanese cars: more fun and less reliable. I was considering an MX-5 / Miata once, and... they rust quickly (maybe the current model doesn't).
The Mk1 Miata was prone to rust - I had one of those. But I think the more recent ones are better. It was a good car though - 15 years old when I bought it, 30 when sold and only needed to go to the garage about once a year.
What's your beef with CVT, especially with Toyota's planetary gear? The latter is probably the greatest development in transmission in the last 50+ years.
The Corolla I was driving recently can definitely not be recommended. It was a rental.
Was a Hybrid, though that shouldn't affect this. It wouldn't save most of the settings I changed. Apparently you can either save it "to the key" (I googled how to do it, didn't work) or to your "profile" with a mobile app. I would never want to have to use my mobile to save car settings, even if I owned it, let alone a rental.
It has a feature that scans road signs and displays them on the dash. Awesome feature, which I've had in other cars before. Just in case you missed one and usually more accurate than Google maps for dynamic situations like construction zones. Unfortunately it loudly beeps and blinks at you if you happen to go over the limit or god forbid set the cruise control above the limit. This can be disabled individually but is part of the settings that don't save across car shutdowns.
Why is that an issue? Because setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality as evidenced by speed measuring displays I drove by. At 100km/h you'll probably be going 90. I learned the 6 key presses on the steering wheel to disable this after starting the car real fast. Unfortunately it disables the entire feature (else it'd be a lot more key presses and I ain't doing that). If this wasn't a rental but a purchase I'd be in this guys boat and trying to return the car.
This is just one example. The other more dire one is the cruise control. I've mentioned it elsewhere before and this Corolla isn't the only one, but the automatic breaking in these cars nowadays is dangerous. The amount of time I was sitting in the car with my foot right above the accelerator in case I need to power through an automatic breaking situation was unreal.
So glad to have been back home after vacation, driving my Subaru (with an adaptive cruise control that does not have this issue).
> setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality as evidenced by speed measuring displays I drove by. At 100km/h you'll probably be going 90.
This is very common and it's probably a deliberate choice of the manufacturer.
I know that my old car in the 90s reported 10 km/h more than the real speed and most other cars did the same, especially at low speeds. My current car is not as bad but I have to set 52 to go 50, 72 to go 70.
Furthermore some speed displays are calibrated differently. Some of them report me at 50, 47, 53 at different towns on the same route. I know I'm OK at 52 because I never got a fine.
I'm more conservative on roads that I'm not familiar with (eg: on a vacation in another country.) The general rule has always been to go at the same speed of the other cars.
> or god forbid set the cruise control above the limit
The word limit is the key here.
> Because setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality
Dear god! I hope you somehow made it through that insufferable experience. To think of the few seconds of your life you've irreplaceably lost! Sending a virtual hug!
My Kia Stinger is 6 years old, ~45K miles, including some modifications, 8 HPDE track days, etc. It's had a few quirks that I've had to learn (don't switch from default driving mode to sport while driving in reverse and then quickly shifting to drive mode - it confuses the sensors. A restart solves the issue 100%). Sound system "enhanced" mode sometimes stops playing all sound - eventually it comes back, and turning off the enhanced mode always restores sound - but it sounds SO much better. Phantom presses on the center screen if there's a large temperature differential (screen heated up by the sun, A/C on in the car, for example). None critical to the basics.
It's never been back to the dealer except for a free oil change at ~1K miles. Mainly because the reputation of Kia dealers is that it's hard to say whether you will be in worse shape if they deny or accept your warrantied repair. I mean, if the engine fails, sure, they can't make it any worse. But there are many stories of people getting a recall and the coolant system not properly bled, so the car overheats on the way home. Or a dealer refusing an obvious warranty repair for ridiculous reasons - only to try to sell you a non-warranty repair for the same problem, etc.
I am driving my car as if there is no warranty, at this point. It's been a GREAT car to drive in most ways, but I don't expect Kia to come through and fix any drivetrain issue in the next few years / 55K miles, if needed.
Not so sure about Subaru. I love my Outback but it is also the only car I've ever owned which left me stranded twice due to two separate firmware issues. Both issues were known and Subaru failed to communicate them to me.
I will probably go with Toyota for our next car despite loving the handling and comfort of our Subaru.
Yeah, we have an Outback as well (2017) and it, too, left us "stranded" (it was parked at home but failed when we really needed it) due to probably the same thing ? Ours drained the battery dead both times. We brought it in both times and had them look it over, both times they blamed us, saying we left a light on (we didn't). Then my wife remembered a recall notice concerning the electrical system, and suddenly they were able to fix the issue. Really put a dent in my trust with them.
Great car otherwise. Well, the CVT isn't the best for driving. But the AWD and agility and snow handling is fantastic.
Same year here. Actually the battery charging issue left us stranded a few times but only once in public. It was the faulty fuel gauge firmware that left us stranded on the side of the I-5 freeway in the middle of CA.
The CVT sort of sucks. Mostly ok but we have a long lag between reverse and drive which causes the car to jerk forward if you try to accelerate before the forward motion starts. The turning radius is amazing though.
My father in law is a Toyota mechanic and warned me to get rid of the car before 100k miles though as more recent subies are as reliable as they used to be.
Was loyal Honda owner since my 1st one in 00s, my current two will be the last I own. Purchased brand new, multiple issues with body/chassis & HVAC in Pilot, electrical systems/motors in Oddy. The dealership tried to fix things and did it unprofessionally.
From what I’ve read, and what I get in the comments here, these too are plagued by electronics and software issues. I’m not sure this category of issues, especially software ones, are correctly taken into account in reliability scores. Ironically my current car (from 2010) doesn’t score too high in reliability, but not having a screen makes that whole class of problems go away.
I hope my current car makes it so that I can entirely skip the current gen cars to hopefully the future one with these issues sorted out, including physical buttons.
Kia's are sadly not that good, we had a Ceed with very obvious rust problems that was widespread. Re-painting did not help, it was the steel treatment that somehow wrecked the paint from underneath.
Kias EVs are even more famour for troubles, just google for Kia ICCU. Even the XC90 competitor EV9 seems to have some trouble with this still.
It's weird that Toyota cars are taking top spots in car breakdown statistics the last couple years. Hyundai & Kia have their EVs breakdown left and right with their ICCU failures, and spare parts seem to be in rather short supply (and a replaced ICCU can fail again). And their battery warranty is only 5 years / 100 km.
The two main Achilles Heels of Hyundai/Kia are their ICE Engines and their EV ICCUs. Google reliability for both and proceed accordingly. They're good about replacing/fixing both issues when they come up, and normally have extended warranties, but they are critical components too and long lead times to fix.
Outside of those issues, which don't happen on all vehicles, I view the brand as pretty rock solid. I'm impressed by how quickly they iterate, their styling, and their NVH attributes. Their pricing has crept up a bit, but still not terrible.
If you have a problem they take 4 weeks to fix it all while you're paying $50+/day for a rental car that they will fight you tooth and nail on reimbursing.
One local dealer refused to honor under warranty the work another dealer did.
If you have any damage (even minor cosmetic) they will blame that on your issues regardless of relativity.
(I have a Hyundai that's had the ICCU replaced once, the ABS IEB twice, and the low-voltage battery 3 times, two of the 3 times on my dime. All on a less than 3-year-old car with less than 100k miles)
The company has been miserable to deal with compared to my past experiences with other brands.
Everything I've heard of their dealers & service departments are what keep me away from their EVs. On the one hand, performance/looks/fun factor to price, they are a pretty good value. On the other hand, if I were to spend $70k on an Ioniq 5N, I would have expectations of service which they are clearly not going to meet. So at that pricing level, its back to BMW EVs.
Very interesting. I had considered the Genesis sub-brand if only for the separate dealers, though there are much fewer of them.
On the plus side a lot of the Genesis vehicles seem like they slap every option the Germans make you pay $1000s each for into the base model, so decent value from that perspective.
I've sat in their EV hatch thing the GV60 in showroom and was impressed by the base features set. I also had a decent length uber ride sitting in the back of their ICE sedan, either the G80 or G90 and it was a nice executive sedan. My backseat reclined, it had motorized shades, the air vents in the back were actually powerful, etc.
Honorable mention - Hyundai Kona EV managed to build a reduction gear that blows around 100k km - just after warranty ends and they specifically recommend not changing the gear oil.
They managed to make an unreliable EV. Great kob, one of the few remaining gear in drivetrain and you managed to fuck that up. Maybe it's on purpose...
I recently got rid of a 2016 Kia Sonata with a severe (and getting worse) oil burning issue. It was well under 100k miles. We really liked the car otherwise overall. Great price, seemed to be made well, easy to work on. The extended warranty on these only applies if you actually blow up engine, which I wasn't willing to do deliberately because I have scruples.
(And according to forum threads, at the time this happened to this us, stealerships were putting people on a 1-2 year waitlist for remanufactured engines, or straight-up totalling their vehicles and giving them "market value" for the car, and these models had awful resale value exactly due to these problems.)
We had a 2015 Sorento with a similar issue. Kia said the oil burn rate was within specs and refused to act. It died at 105k, and they refused to do anything about it, even with documentation of the oil burn rate going back to 75k miles. We replaced the engine on our own dime, and it took me three weeks to find a single engine that was compatible.
That said, a few months ago my daughter was t-boned in it by a driving going 60+ MPH. The impact was directly on the driver’s door. She not only survived, but did so with only superficial facial cuts and some longer-term, back pain.
I can’t be too hard on a car that saved my daughter’s life.
Lol, I think I did the exact same thing with a Tucson. Similar mileage, too. Did you have the 2l or 2.4l engine? I had oil burning and reduced power. Dealer actually said they'd replace the engine... After it actually died. No shot I'm going to drive my car w/ my fam just waiting for it to die. I did absolutely love the vehicle otherwise, so that was a real bummer.
For a long time Consumer Reports has ranked cars as Japanese > American >> European, European cars have some luxury cachet but if you want a car that starts when you turn the key look elsewhere. American cars came a long way since the 1970s when they really were trash.
Consumer Reports currently has Audi and BMW ahead of any American manufacturer.
Brand average reliability is tricky though, on their 100-point scale, their top manufacturer (Subaru) has models that range from 38-98.
Looking at the model breakdown... I kinda suspect they don’t really have enough datapoints - VW’s reliability only includes 3 models (the Tiguan, ID.4 and TAOS) - Ford has a 25-point difference between the Escape and Maverick hybrids that share the same engine/powertrain (I can’t think of any reason why the Maverick would actually be notably more reliable than the Escape unless the PHEV escape is dragging down weighted reliability by that much over the mild hybrid), etc.
"European" cars are not really a category. French/Italian/Spanish cars are very different from German/Volvo, and even these groupings are a stretch. Then you have Dacia too, and I have no idea where to even put it. Plus you have some luxury British cars, which are again veery different.
In the USA (where Consumer Reports exists), we don’t have any French or Spanish brands. Italian brands are only exotics and couple near-luxury brands from Stellantis.
To a USAian, “European Brand” means something from Germany or Scandinavia. If you mean a Ferrari or Lamborghini, you say that name.
There's Fiat, an Italian brand that I think of as terribly downmarket. I think it's part of Stellantis and I think if you see Stellantis coming you're supposed to run, not walk away -- I guess Chrysler is still part of that, but Chrysler is also far worse than Ford and GM.
As for Ferrari and Lamborghini it doesn't matter what Consumer Reports thinks.
>"European" cars are not really a category. /Spanish cars are very different from German/Volvo
VWAG owns the largest Spanish car maker, Seat/Cupra. 100% of cars Seat/Cupra sells are VW derivatives. Whatever you imagine the difference between Spanish cars and German cars to be, it is not real.
>French/Italian
Renault is a very different company then Stellantis (Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot).
What you should compare is the parent company making these cars.
>Plus you have some luxury British cars, which are again veery different.
Lotus is a Geely brand, just like Volvo is a Geely brand, some of their cars are on the same platform. Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot are Stellantis brands.
The only spanish car maker is SEAT and it's part of VAG group. SEAT are more expensive than Skoda, but cheaper than Audi.
And using the country card with these automaker corporations is very tricky, because they have factories everywhere. You can buy an Audi made in Spain or a VW made in Slovakia.
The relative ranking may hold, but the problem nowadays is all cars are unreliable due to software. Sure a car letting you down because the engine is blown up is bad, but a car failing unpredictably in the middle of nowhere due to software issue a pretty serious issue to. I’m not sure Japanese are better on this.
> While driving on Highway 13 (Montreal), the vehicle abruptly lost all throttle response
This has happened twice with a Mk II Leaf for us. The second time the dealer charged me over $100 to say "Mēh! No idea what went wrong"
Perhaps BYD? They seem to be getting it together.
As an old and grey computer programmer I do not, absolutely do not want, a "software defined vehicle". My comrades and I are renowned for unreliable crappy consumer products, where car manufacturers in the ICE era developed remarkably reliable and performant vehicles.
I really think electric cars need to be done differently, where the drive train is not dependant on my friends who "move fast and break things". My friends like these should be nowhere near automobiles.
Believe it or not, both the software and hardware on Chinese-made Teslas is rock solid. (With the notable and massive exception of Autopilot/FSD, but this is an optional feature.) The Model 3 has been ranked the most reliable EV in Australia:
If you buy a Toyota ProAce van you get a Peugeot Expert aka Citroen Jumpy/Traveller aka the respective Fiat and Opel (and Vauxhall?) branded vehicles. It's a Volkswagen Transporter-sized van, not an Eurovan/minivan that still might be sold in EU only though.
idk but in addition to what was listed already stay away from: Land Rover, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Fiat
... all of them leave you stranded in the middle of the road
To those downvoting my perfectly succinct answer to the question, I urge you to drive one of the newer Mercedes EVs. After my Tesla nightmare I moved on to Mercedes and it was night and day.
The EVs (from any mainstream manufacturer that began with ICE products) are all fairly immature. My AMG E53 (cabriolet) is a hybrid, and I can tolerate that. It gives me an extra 100+HP when I punch it, but I wonder how long the battery is going to last. The electric power plant adds more than 500lbs to the car, but the car still performs very well. (The car is five years old now.) I like that I can drive over 400 miles on a tank of gas, and I like that I have no trouble finding a gas station, and that it takes only a few minutes to fill the tank.
I'm looking forward to the time when an EV can give me all of these things, and I'll eagerly purchase one when that happens.
I bought this car after owning a high-end BMW. I was looking for a car that performs well, but is very reliable.
It has been a great car, and it cost only 66% of the price that Vicken paid for his Volvo EX90.
I was a bit surprised to see the the "software" criteria in your reply, as I'd always thought of enshittification's inevitability as a capitalist phenomenon whereby a quality brand is wrung out for near term gains by management incentivized to get their cut before riding off into the sunset.
But after reading up a bit, I've found that software platform lock-in was important in enshittification's original formulation — it's not just that quality goes to crap, but that users have nowhere else to go.
Thank you for that second paragraph. Really hate people throwing that word around without understanding what it actually means. Was about to get inflamed.
Makes you wonder how open software car platform could look like and why nobody is making one.
Probably because if you and me would write one and install it on our cars it would void all certifications and make the car not legal to drive. That doesn't mean that manufacturers could not band together and make a common OS for cars, or a company in that market could not sell its software to everybody (like MS or Google) but I believe that manufactures don't want to completely commoditize cars and go the way of gas brands or smartphones. A car is 4 wheels, steering and brakes to me, so I don't care much about what I'm driving as long as it handles well and brakes strong, but that's not the case for most people so manufacturers want to add their own bells and whistles.
That's a phenomenon that can be blamed on low-IQ or disengaged owners.
Some companies have owners that are locked in, who know where the true value of their business lies (usually this involves a high quality product), and holds the management to account to keep the golden-egg-laying goose alive.
But other companies are owned by index funds, ETFs, and/or dumb people who don't know or care how things work. These have no defense against enshittifying.
I've bought some products that are of almost egregiously high quality, and nearly 100% of the time there's family ownership, or it's still run by the founders.
I remember, some years back, the warranty period was actually almost inversely correlated with reliability. It seemed like the companies that were making unreliable cars were just hoping to get people onboard with long warranties. There's a great story on Reddit from years ago about the lifetime Kia warranty, and a car that went through something like 7 engines in 10 years.
I rented an Audi Q7 for a week recently. The drive quality of the car is excellent. But the software is terrible. Just getting CarPlay to work every time is a challenge. I will not be buying an Audi any time soon.
As more and more of the vehicle's experience becomes software controlled, manufacturers who don't have good software development teams are going to lose out. German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software, and they are happy to collectively develop the software [1] as opposed to seeing software as a key differentiator.
Software is indeed a differentiator, as in I want as little as possible of that shit in my car. Any car where all the controls are on a giant iPad in the middle are a non-starter for me.
Physical goods companies just don't get software, and they never seem to be able to do it right. They treat firmware and software like just another line item on the BOM. Like a screw or a silicon gasket: Source it from a cheap supplier, spoon it into the product somewhere on the assembly line, and then never touch it again. As long as it meets a list of checkbox requirements, the quality doesn't matter at all. A car company that obsesses over how nicely the exterior panels fit together will, on the other hand, not even care whether icons and text are aligned on their software.
While you're right that car companies are not good at software, this is almost a blessing at this point. Imagine if they had the software talent of a Google or Microsoft and used it to implement the same fucking awful "enshittification" business models.
Plot twist - most carmakers button implementations are no better than giant iPad. Special hell to ones making dedicated climate controls using touch surfaces.
The VW Group is putting billions into their partnership with Rivian specifically to improve the software experience (and enabling hardware). It may be the only thing that keeps Rivian alive until (if) the R2 successfully launches to the mass market.
Imagine what they could do if they put those billions into building auto control panels that had actual knobs and buttons instead of a glorified iPad. They might actually be able to create a pleasant driving experience!
>German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software
VWAG is now on attempt number two of fixing their Software problems.
They tried Cariad, the result was your experience. The next attempt is giving billions to Rivian.
If you believe that these companies do not understand how important software is you are totally delusional. Literally Billions worth of money have they spent trying to fix that.
They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software, and they don't understand and respect the different way of working that you need for software vs hardware.
I've heard somebody describe it as "they are using methods that have been known not to work for 20 years".
>They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software
But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention.
What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad, often cling to outdated methodologies and tend to create overly complex and overly useless systems. There are hundreds of examples for this, throughout European industries and governments. "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Consider also the salaries of European Software Engineers, even in the most wealthy countries, like France and Germany, it averages around 50k to 60k, it is not the highly lucrative career it is (was?) in the US.
I am a German software engineer. I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. But I don't work in automotive, where they do, or used to, overengineer things pretty badly - and in pretty silly ways, too, i.e. not usually defensible in some reasonable way. Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. But that still doesn't fix the culture. The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.
>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering.
Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess.
>Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive.
Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that is not the case, especially in automotive, where salaries are often union negotiated and Engineers are all on identical pay scales.
>The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.
I just think that there really isn't anybody else. Is there any person somewhere in the German industry who has the ability for leadership and great software expertise? The biggest Software company in Germany is SAP and surely, hiring some SAP manager would have been an even worse decision.
What you saw was just a standard mess - not over-engineering. Same thing that I often see.
Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).
>Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).
Maybe, but US people often do not understand German work culture. The Cariad CEO will have to deal with the IGM and be mindful of German labor laws and specific cultural norms.
But I do not think that you are wrong, but that the general bias to promote "one of their own" caused this.
> Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad
> "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Anecdata: in my 10+ years experience, the worst UX, UI, code and SWEs I've seen, are all German. I'm not saying there's absolutely no good ones here and there, but in general it seems the love for a very complex written/spoken language (riddled with rules and exception) and bureaucracy has translated 100% into software. The interfaces, the code and coding style most of the times give me a 1980s vibe if I'm lucky, or just scare me off altogether in most cases. The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
Many of the things which work well for developing hardware or Mechatronics work terribly for Software. Hardware development is about rigorous processes, any change to a piece of hardware requires a very complex chain of people, as the impact often is hard to predict and will require changes to many other processes, e.g. manufacturing. I do not think this is the entire explanation though.
The US Software industry has succeeded because it is very open to rapid changes, which the nature of software allows, given the right environment.
>The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
That is exactly the incompetence I am talking about. This gets extremely bad if governments are developing software solutions, where they outsource to a variety of contractors, who all are somewhat incompetent, but together manage to create a real mess. A mess so bad that every user feels the jank.
Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.
Yes, I get it - deleting 7 buttons gets you that $1M bonus - but it totally borks the system for the everyday driver, who then becomes less loyal.
At this point, there are very, VERY few companies I'm loyal to, because almost none are loyal to me - they'll all give "new users" better deals, and take advantage of any loyalty I have to gouge me and charge me more than a competitor.
>Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.
And because all critical people hate physical buttons VWAG all new models and even concept cars now come with physical buttons on the steering wheel and dedicated climate controls outside of the touchscreen?
Very weird things going on, where the things which are developed are the exact opposite of what you say the critical decision makers want.
Have you actually looked at new VWAG models or their new concept cars? Because this complaint seems to exist purely in your head.
Agreed with the other response to you - this "reverting to buttons" is a response to the outcry after they all went towards a tesla-like "everything is controlled via the center console" dystopia. Yes, the VERY NEW VWAG models are thankfully reverting back. That doesn't mean they didn't go the other way first.
It's COSTING them $$ to switch back - and they were losing a LOT of buyers over it. If you read any car magazines, people were constantly talking about this. Car makers are finally starting to listen - after several years of failure.
Couple a "slow-to-respond" GUI with a "everything is done via the GUI" and it's horrible.
They are reverting to reason as we speak. All car manufacturers fell victim to touchscreen madness for a while, to varying degrees. A certain conservatism may have helped in the case of VW, as it does with overly aggressive styling trends.
> Volvo sadly no longer stands for Swedish quality and safety.
> What you’re buying is essentially an overpriced Chinese car with Volvo stickers.
> And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
I feel it's quite off-base to associate the quality of a car to a country. The quality of a car is a statistical quantity that's mostly related to a specific model of car.
There are at least 3 wrong insinuations in the above post.
1. Volvo engineering is still mostly based in Sweden. Geely has mostly not touched it. So it's still Swedish -- thus it is still Swedish quality and safety. If it has gone down, then it's Swedish quality and safety that has gone down.
2. Many Chinese cars are now high quality.
3. That countries are correlated with quality is a lazy mental shortcut. Many Mitsubishi are not high quality, despite being Japanese.
Also the Volvo EX90 (in the article) is made in Charleston SC.
Quality is not just based on the design some office workers come up with. It’s also manufacturing process, material sourcing (iron ore etc) and processing of these materials.
The list goes on. But yeah, if I look at for instance Volvo EX30 or EX40 etc, they look very ”off” somehow and doesn’t scream ”built to last” any longer.
Compared to the older XC70, 740 and so on which are built like locomotives.
I strongly believe that some countries correlate with quality (in general, and depending on the subject). It has to do with the way of working I guess. People in countries with stronger hierarchy in the workplace tend to polish away the faults and shortcomings when reporting to their superiors.
I don’t believe there’s anything strange in thinking that way. It’s as if saying the Avocados in Peru is generally better and higher quality than the Avocados produced in Spain.
Not even, BYD and other Chinese car companies make great, reliable cars. This is simply Volvo intentionally and likely knowingly cheating out as much as possible to make a quick buck, burning their brand in the process
There was fuel tank burst open in cold weather overnight incident, sudden fires and explosions of (presumable hybrid) Chinese cars, etc. Chinese cars are not on market for time enough to even consider their reliability. Let's wait for ten years, at the very least.
The quality of ride of Chinese cars is not even close to their European counterparts, children get sick even on the front row in ten minutes in a car that costs next to $60K. Their suspension is such that they do not compensate for sudden roll when one side of car hits a bump or hole.
Rolls Royce made their Phantoms to have adjustable clearance so that Chinese buyers would not suffer from bad roads of China, yet all of the buyers of Chinese cars have to suffer from roads that are not ideally paved.
Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty. Especially 50k+ tier from last few years, most perform better than Euro cars in terms of noise, vibration harshness. You generally have to scrape to bottom barrel entry level 10-15k PRC cars to get bad ride experiences now. Chinese roads also great now, down to rural.
Quality's caught up since 2020s. Sure you can wait 10 years, but there's industry indicators like problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) where PRC EVs are fine / better than foreign bands (built in PRC factories. At least mechanically (power trains, batteries, chassis). Most PRC weakeness comes from stuff like infotainment, drive assist last few years because they've been iterating software a little too fast. There's also proprietary fleet data on EV taxis / rideshare that's been driven to death, and those hold up fine too.
Rolls Royce tuned their PRC cars to be EXTRA PLUSH, because PRC buyers prefers extra cloudy rides vs Euro buyers that prefers firmer / responsive, NA softer than EU, MENA somewhere between EU/NA.
> Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty.
It is year 2025 in a country that was flooded with Chinese cars last three years. You can guess which one.
There is nothing soft in ride of any Chinese car in my experience. These cars are in taxis here and you can experience ride in pretty much every model and brand, from basic to luxury. No Chinese car I've been driven in compensate for sudden rolls.
European cars have much softier ride than anything Chinese, even Chinese "luxury" brands sold here. As you mentioned that, then "sporty, firm and responsive" BMW 5series' are much more pleasant to be schoffered in than anything Chinese.
Chinese luxury car brand Hongqi put V6 turbocharged hybrid motors into their full sedan models [1], this is really a shame!
This shows they do not understand what quality of ride is. What vibrations are, how they affect quality of ride, how electric motors exacerbate vibrations [2], how motor's torque output affect quality of ride, etc, etc.
You've clearly not driven one recently. I'm shopping at the moment, and the BYDs in particular are great to drive and have an amazing fit-out. Model 3/Y are the most direct comparable on both fronts, if I'm looking to European counterparts with similar ride and fit I'm also jumping 2x in price.
I use taxis all the time. Right now less than one in ten rides is European car, they are almost all Chinese.
Also, please experience being driven in the car in addition to drive a car.
In case of being driven you are not paying attention to the road and do not know why some acceleration did happen. In this situation your brain can decide that your senses are lying to it because body is poisoned and will invoke gag reflex, which we call ride sickness.
I look into that because I have to drive a family where two members are prone to motion sickness. I will definitely not look into any electric car because of this.
Not only that, they also have a fairly conservative approach to design that seems to keep a lot of the stupid bullshit out of their cars. I own multiple late model Japanese cars from different manufacturers and have had zero issues with them. The ADAS systems they do have, while arguably basic by 2025 standards, function flawlessly. All essential controls (including climate control) are physical.
To be honest, it has never been about pure brand. Every brand has had clunkers and has had great models.
Having said that, Toyota is known for their reliability, and Volvo (+ Polestar) was / are known for their safety.
Just to emphasize the point: Nissan is doomed because generally no one wants their cars, but they have perhaps one of the greatest bang-for-buck EVs outside of Chinese brands: the Leaf 2.
Nissan makes fantastic cars that develop a following, and then proceeds to change everything about the car that created a following in the first place. Mitsubishi seem to be learning this skill from them. Toyota still sells cars that have a direct lineage to the original model 40 years ago, and charges a fortune for them.
I have a 2022 model Leaf, the one with 230 miles range, and it's... boring in a good way. It just works. Zero problems whatsoever and zero noticeable battery degradation after about 27K miles. Only big downside is poor rapid charging, but we use ours as a city car and rarely if ever need it.
Put a CCS fast charge port and better battery cooling in this thing and it'd be the perfect boring reliable EV with physical dash controls (no touch screen BS).
My girlfriend has the same car and I had about the same feeling in it - it's just a cheap Nissan that happens to be electric (and I mean that in a good way). As you said, quite good as a city car, and we even did a short road trip in it, but the lack of chargers for it does produce some range anxiety.
Leaf doesn't have active cooling nor CCS... That's a big reason they have to price it like that. I'd rather take a Toyota busy forks in the current market. Chevy Equinox is pretty good bang for buck too.
New cars... but a 22 year old used Toyota, like mine, seems perfectly fine.
Sure, it'll kill me because of the comparative lack of safety, but that seems like a minor sacrifice in the face of needing to deal with a new car.
It also doesn't have pillars the thickness of an elephant's legs, like all new cars, significantly less compromising to visibility all around. It also lacks the now ubiquitous square and raised bonnet.
If you are of a certain age, have the ready cash and if new cars are truly safer than old cars, then do society a favor and buy the new car. It’s cheaper for society to make a new car that keeps the aging driver, passengers and other drivers and pedestrians safe, than to pay to fix even one broken old person.
I’ve got a 2025 sedan with all the newest safety features, and what you lose in visibility you more than gain in general situational awareness, especially with aging eyes, ears, etc.. Managing display and alarm complexities is the challenge, though, since the aging population also have issues there. A driving training simulator at the dealership for these new sedans for the elderly would be a big help, since many of the safety options are only active in a vehicle under motion. The temptation for the aged is just to shut these confusing options off as too complex, thus losing the safety advantage.
Was told by a mechanic a few months back that continuously-variable transmissions are standard in gas cars now, but have reliability problems. Old-tech automatics can (could?) still be had from Toyota and Mazda.
E-CVTs are extremely reliable and are different from CVTs (CVTs use a belt attached to 2 cones, E-CVTs are just a single planetary gear set), but a lot of car guys and even some mechanics don't realize they're completely different.
Take this with a grain of salt (since it's not first hand experience), but I have heard from friends that the quality of German cars has degraded significantly
I don’t own one, but Volvo certainly still stands for safety. The XC90 (the non-fully electric version of this car) had the most amazing safety record in the UK I’ve ever heard of. For the first 10 years or so it was in service no driver or passenger was killed in an XC90 in any accident in the UK.
That stat is all the more impressive because it’s also a very common car, (at least as far as expensive cars go), so in my area for example I see at least 10 of them parked on the streets on my daily 30min walk in London.
Or just buy a Zeekr (if you want a non-Elon EV) - a much more technically impressive and better looking car than the Volvo or Tesla and it was designed in Europe:
That touch screen-only with the different modes of activation is my nightmare and literally giving me anxiety watching that showcase if that's to be the future of auto driving.
Yeah, that's my biggest gripe with the Chinese stuff and why I would not buy one yet. Fwiw, they seem to be reintroduction physical controls in some models (so they are learning).
> And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
I own a 2020 BMW with an electronic gearbox, which broke at around 80k km just a couple of months after the warranty expired (yeah I know!). It was a bit of a headache going back and forth with BMW to request a free repair. Fortunately, the headquarters agreed to cover the cost, and they installed a refurbished electronic gearbox. I was quite relieved that I didn’t have to pay about €10K out of pocket!
All that to say that I wouldn’t call BMW particularly reliable in terms of quality these days, but their customer support was decent, at least in my case.
I was going to create a website just like this but for my Audi Q5. Least reliable car I ever owned. It’s been in the shop about 15 times in 2 years. I finally gave up. It still has a few unsolved issues but I just don’t care. I’ll be trading it in later this year and … Never another Audi again.
I drive a chinese EV and its quality is far beyond anything I could get from european builders. That’s definitely not the source of the problem for Volvo.
This being downvoted only reflects how hard it is for us in the west to accept the current state of things. I suggest visiting the nearest Nio or Zeekr store for a little reality shock.
Meanwhile they praise Polestar, new Mini EVs, Smart, Volvo and others that are also being produced in joint ventures with Chinese manufacturers but don’t carry a chinese brand.
> Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
German cars, as a rule, are made with complete disregard for the people who will have to work on them. They are reliable while meticulously maintained and before anything even remotely important break. Then they become a nightmare.
And I'm saying _this_ as a Swede, because apparently it matters: what cars are most reliable is publicly available information, and they're all from Asia. My personal favorite is Toyota.
I assume you're referring to Länsförsäkringars list of most reliable cars (in terms of engine/mechanical fault).
While it's true that it's mainly asian/Japanese cars that are least reported, that doesn't make them the most reliable in general.
Mazdas and Toyotas tend to rust off in our nordic weather way faster than german brands or older Volvos. Sure, the engine might still run but what difference does it make if it's all become a piece of rust that is ready to fall apart within ten years.
It’s a well known fact if you’re remotely interested in cars. Mazda has supposedly upped their game lately regarding rust, but they and other Japanese brands are still regarded inferior to Volvo/german cars in terms of falling apart to rust in our Nordic climate.
You can use car.info to if you want to dig further on this (statistik på skrotade bilar). Or just ask your favorite LLM. You don’t have to take my word for it.
Japan doesn’t salt their roads nearly as much as we do.
i agree on that emission-fraud. but, haha, you know there are loads of videos of your favorite blue colored ones doing the same salute? if that is what keeps you spinning you ran out of car brands long time ago...
Please, post links to videos of those, not still frames. I've seen much shorter and punchier rebuttals to this claim, but this is what I found just now:
In my ID.4 pressing both buttons with windows half-open will sometimes close both windows and sometimes one window will go up and the other down. Does that qualify as "questionable"? :-)
> software is good
You mean your parking cameras always turn on when needed and you don't get a black screen where the camera image should be about 30% of the time? Can the car recognize two drivers by keyfob and not mix up their settings? Does it not prompt you to "log in" (confirm the driver) every time you start it? Is anything except the background color tied to the whole login thing (like, for example, seat settings)?
My bar is pretty low here after the ID.4 hot garbage software.
In the US, I’ve seen enough problems on VW cars that I won’t make the same conclusion.
US driving culture-wise, I’ve seen Audi and Mercedes drivers adopt the same brain-dead behaviors BMW drivers have that I wouldn’t want to be associated with them either.
If I were to buy a new car today, it would be a Toyota or a Honda, maybe a Hyundai.
I owned a brand new 2024 Audi A6 and the infotainment system, general software, and driver assist functionality was absolutely atrocious to the point of rendering the car inoperable from time to time. Audi refused to acknowledge there was an issue so I sold it privately.
That’s incorrect. I use DNSecure (iOS app) to relay all DNS traffic on my iPhone to my DNScrypt-proxy server which I host on the internet (make sure you know what you do before exposing DNS servers on the internet).
It’s awesome because I have system wide tracker/adblocking which works whether or not I’m on my LAN and even with Apple Private Relay on.
How does this prevent a random application from making an HTTPS request to a random hard-coded IP address? Similarly, how does this prevent an application from making an HTTPS request to a generic host (e.g., api.example.com)?
This is what DoH looks like from outside the application. You can't really tell that it's DoH since it's just an HTTPS connection, which is kind of the whole point of it.
Yep with applications hardcoding addresses and utilizing certificate pinning, there's nothing the device owner/homeowner/network admin/system admin can do to inspect or modify DNS over HTTPS traffic, other than uninstall the application or block the connection entirely. Increasingly, blocking connections breaks the app so you almost might as well just uninstall the app or block it from being installed on managed endpoints.
> How does this prevent a random application from making an HTTPS request to a random hard-coded IP address? Similarly, how does this prevent an application from making an HTTPS request to a generic host (e.g., api.example.com)?
I think that, franky, even without DoH, that ship has sailed. WhatsApp and Telegram (to name a few) is known to embed IP addresses into their applications. It is silly to assume that not standardizing DoH will not result in the same situation, and I imagine there are custom DNS bootstraping happening, for good or evil.
Theoretically you could domainblock known DoH servers that certain applications would use.
But yes, I believe that if an application try hard enough there are ways to bypass any set of rules you set on a device. Luckily, most applications just use the internal libresolv for any domain resolving needs.
