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It's shocking how (presumably) free-market maximalists on HN, who usually tout the benefits of competition look at Chinese EVs and go "These low proces can't be due to competition and innovation. It has to be government intervention". Domestic competition in China is red in tooth and claw, while car manufacturers in the US manufacturers innovate on buyer financing.

> It's only a matter of time until it becomes too confusing and problematic to try and run the same system relatively openly in one country and walled in another

They will continue to do so for as long as it remains profitable. Navigating the complexities of multiple jurisdictions is the bread and butter of MNCs - it's the price of admission into the multinational club. Apple is guaranteed to have lawyers, admins, and executives already on the payroll for this task.


Or until they’ve successfully “demonstrated” that it always was impossible.

> Apple is guaranteed to have lawyers, admins, and executives already on the payroll for this task.

As both a shareholder and user, I really wish they’d invest their resources into feature development instead of manufacturing obstacles.


Lawyers, admins, and executives, sure. But what about the complexity on the engineers who now have to maintain an exploding matrix of modes? I can definitely see that becoming burdensome.

much has been written about the deteriorating quality of iOS.

There's bluntly not strong external evidence that software quality is a driving priority at Apple in recent years, so it most probably follows that concerns about maintainability aren't either.


You’re not wrong, it is burdensome but the sheer volume of money they secure primarily because of their license to rent-seek mercilessly (in the US especially because it’s the market they dominate most and with the weakest regulators) makes even a hilarious amount of complexity supportable. Besides, it’s mainly the users who suffer from the codebase falling apart, not Apple decision makers.

$500k+ TC makes many burdens worth shouldering

they make $1b in revenue and $300mm a day in profit

Engineers say they want to work on hard problems then complain that they can’t solve something because it’s too complex

The difference is this isn't an inherently hard problem. It's just stupidity. The difficulty is not inherently interesting, because it's all made up.

Seconded, compliance-induced complexity is the most asinine and tedious possible application of programming skills.

sounds like a problem for claude to worry about

And since billions of dollars are on the line it will remain profitable for a long time.

> Try your best to talk to people. Having a shared hobby/interest makes for easy conversation and ice breakers.

Unfortunately for OP, they have a distaste for small talk, and yet small talk is the launchpad for any potential conversation partner.

Small talk is the lubricant for all social interactions and provides a safe, shallow harbor where people can get to know each other before heading out to deeper waters that require more earned trust. People actively reject small talk come across as socially awkward, uninterested, or both.


I hate small talk. Never needed it to make friends.

Good for you, but my comment was directed towards OP, who wants friends but hated the process.

My comment is also directed towards OP: you don’t need small talk to make friends.

> How is that a Tesla thing though?

It's not. Waymo could license a version of its stack using the Android model (specifies a minimum sensor suite OEMs have to qualify models on).


> US manufacturers can't make a cheap car to save their lives.

They have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to never make low-margin (read "cheap") cars. If someone is looking for a competitive automotive market, they won't find it in the US. The financial engineering is world-class though.


> China has a strategy where most western nations don't appear to have one.

EVs were subsidised in the west, e.g. in California (#4 "country" by GDP), Norway, and US tax incentives - which have gone away after the Trump anti-renewables Bill of 2025. MRSPs for EVs were slashed after September 2025 due to the loss of this subsidy, and 2 months later Ford cancelled it's electric F-150 program.


> Both SpaceX and Tesla are accomplishments if you consider where their competitors are.

CATL, BYD, and other Chinese manufacturers are absolutely killing it at Tesla's expense, Because their markets have actual, sharp-elbowed competition requiring actual innovation.


It takes a lot more effort to be first. When they were making the roadster, who else was interesting in BEV?

For SpaceX, who is landing rockets for reuse?

With all due respect, China at this point does seem to only get in when the early adoption is done. Then they just throw state money at the problem to catch up. They might be innovating now but they left the hard work to someone else


> China at this point does seem to only get in when the early adoption is done.

China started strategic planning on renewable energy in 1992. You're sorely mistaken if you think China intends to merely "catch up" - they are gunning to be the leader, and have the fundamental research to back the aspirations.

> For SpaceX, who is landing rockets for reuse?

Just Blue Origin. Commercial space is new and inherently has little competition; SpaceX is rightfully a pioneer. Traditional government space programs in Europe, the US, Russia or China were never cost sensitive on national security payloads, or prestige manned missions - maybe a bit on the science missions. China - like the US and few other countries with the research, industrial and GDP foundations - can go from zero to one in any field it chooses to prioritize[1], and has done so on a manned space station - which may be the only one in orbit come 2030.

1. Underestimating an adversary is one way to get nasty surprises. The US is currently playing catch-up on hypersonic glide weaponry.


The Chinese cars makers are heavily government funded, with the goal of flooding markets.

It’s not hard to sell EVs when you’re losing money on each one.


Can you provide links showing how much any of the companies is getting from the government?

https://www.electrive.com/2025/08/22/china-discloses-subsidi...

$230B is the number thrown around, but those are the direct subsidies. When suppliers are subsidized it gets hard to account for all of it.


For Tesla maybe (if you ignore self driving as useless), but that doesn’t apply to spacex.

To the moon <rocket emoji> <diamond emoji> <hand emoji>

On the upside, your phone can be thinner now and the down time gives you, the chance to admire its aesthetic without distraction.

> only recovering with Zen (and even then it took a few generations for Zen to mature).

Zen was a beast from day one. Zen 1 more or less matched Intel on single-core perf and outmatched it on multicore. Zen 1 blew Intel out of water on perf/$, so much so that the morning after booting up my Zen 1 computer, I bought as many AMD shares as I could afford.


Zen1 was further behind in ST perf than Intel is today in it's desktop offerings. They really exploited their strength in MT and price, and showed that the market was already chafing under Intel's reluctance to go beyond 4 cores on their consumer line, presumably to avoid stepping on the toes of HEDT. But that just caused the competition to pretty much invalidate that entire line instead.

And I don't really see the situation being that obviously different if it was Nvidia who they merged with and Jensen was CEO.

The big issue was simply that AMD didn't have the cash at hand to both pay for ATI and maintain investment in R&D, at least without their next few products completely dominating the competition. I don't see a different CEO changing that. Unless Jensen was willing to value Nvidia significantly less than ATI at the time.


> And I don't really see the situation being that obviously different if it was Nvidia who they merged with and Jensen was CEO.

Hindsight is 20/20. I suspect Zen chiplet success was a result of AMD's deliberate strategy of design partnership with other companies (XBox, PlayStation) and re-using IP[1]. Jensen might not have done the same road on partnerships, or may have chosen the Arm (Tegra) over doubling down on x86

1. There's an informative interview with Lisa Hsu from 2 years ago that lays out the strategy. It's not a big leap to imagine Infinity Fabric eas designed to increase design flexibility across disparate workloads. The impression I got from the multistage Apple-Nvida fallout is that Nvidia probably doesn't have a culture of accepting notes on it's products.


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