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I have a PhD from one of the best universities in the world in Machine Translation, I was training feed forward networks in 2014, built models in TensorFlow in 2016, founded a generative AI startup in 2019 and signed deals with huge consumer goods companies, debugged distributed training jobs on a cluster with thousands of A100s, and wrote PyTorch training pipelines for a financial ML trading signal that made money.

Yet, I am unqualified to join an AI startup because I’ve never made an API request to OpenAI


The attitude underlying this comment likely makes you a bad culture fit...

Make ur first API request to OpenAI today and who knows, rooting for ya!

This is a bad faith comment - if you had all that in your resume, they wouldnt disqualify you for not ‘sending an api request’.

Having a PhD vs. making that API call might ironically suggest you don’t emanate hands-on product thinking.

I know PhDs in data science and language technology who are not startup material because they’re too uncomfortable outside of MatLab/Jupyter/R.


My girlfriend is an Orthopaedic Surgeon. Great when I've got a broken arm, or need shelves putting up. I wouldn't let her anywhere near my heart or brain. Medicine is super specialised.

I hear you on geography though. Luckily the human body doesn't change too much between locations.


I think the point was that an orthopaedic surgeon can change hospitals and immediately get to work doing orthopaedic surgery. Sure, there might be some difference in how to clock in or who to report to, but they aren't suddenly working with a different type of human. Their job will remain constant despite changing environs, whereas moving between software companies could have you learning entirely different stacks that affect your process in fundamental ways.


This seems to be a characteristic of many high functioning people, especially successful engineers. There is a "correct" way of living your life, conducting your business, using your text editor, etc. It's helpful in that it ensures consistency and focus. The downside is that people become desensitised to nuance.

In this particular example, the word cargo in cargo cult is redundant. All cults have ridiculous ceremonies for cult members to engage in. These ceremonies come from human nature, our inability to distinguish correlation from causation. We're told to conduct a ceremony, get a good outcome, then believe it's the ceremonies that caused the outcome. Just call them ceremonies, because that's what they are.

However, when Feynman wrote his speech he must have thought that a cargo cult is a much more graphic metaphor than a dry lecture about stats and human biases.


Cargo cults are a specific kind of cult where the ceremonies come from imitating some other community. And complaints about cargo cult programming aren't only about people doing ineffective things, it's also about people seeing someone else doing something effectively but then not doing the work to understand why it's effective. It's a complaint about people being so close to being much more effective, but then snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.


Did you read the article? That is very much the pop sci definition of cargo cult that is incorrect.

The cargo cults were made by people who were enslaved and violently oppressed and then believed that cargo they were forced to create for their oppressors (e.g. flour, rice, tobacco, and other trade) should belong to them


> believed that cargo they were forced to create for their oppressors

I'm not sure that was in the article was it? These were exotic goods brought from overseas.

I'm not trying to say there was no oppression, but the examples in which they believed the trade goods should belong to them were still about trade goods which arrived by boat.

"[The leader proclaimed] that the ancestors were coming back in the persons of the white people in the country and that all the things introduced by the white people and the ships that brought them belonged really to their ancestors and themselves."

(edit - certainly these goods may well have been produced through the oppression of other peoples elsewhere!)


The value of content creators on YouTube will follow a power law distribution. There will be a very small number of hugely profitable creators and a vast sea of people who do ok. This power law distribution makes YouTube very different to setting up a physical retail store in London. Even if I do well with my shop, I won't outperform my neighbour 1000x.

If anything Mr Beast is an argument for not using YouTube. Alphabet is incentivised to keep him happy so that he doesn't move to X. I'm sure they consider his needs before they change their algorithm, at the expense of almost all other creators on YouTube.


Again you've gone straight back to zero sum thinking. There's no reason Alphabet keeping Mr Beast happy has to be bad for you! It might be good for you! It might be - in fact it almost certainly is true - that the changes that Mr Beast gets youtube to make might be good for everyone.

The network effects of the platform are massive. 90% of that surplus can go to Alphabet and it still be a good deal for average creators. Mr Beast, you, me anyone can go and rent a server tomorrow and start serving their own videos. People still choose to go to youtube because there's just so much surplus value there.


My statement did not imply zero sum thinking. The pie can get bigger and the bigger slices can get disproportionately bigger.

As an analogy, economies can increase their GDP and inequality can also increase. Just because something is getting bigger doesn't mean it's getting fairer.


What I'm saying is the pie is getting bigger, inequality can increase too and that you probably are still better off. If Youtube doubles in size next year, and Mr Beast increases his share of that from let's say 1% to 2%, the remaining 98% is still bigger than the 99% that was shared amongst everyone else last year.

You may look at that and say well that's not fair, most of the benefits are going to Mr Beast - and they are, Mr Beast would have done very well in that scenario. But you're still better off than before. Are you better off relative to Mr Beast? No. But Youtube doesn't owe you that, that's not a reasonable benchmark. If it gets to the point that you're getting worse off, then maybe move to somewhere else, but expecting these places to be good for you in perpetuity is a mistake, and refusing to engage because you fear they won't be good for you in perpetuity is also a mistake. The total benefit of us all engaging makes the pie much bigger, and you almost certainly will get a bigger share of that than by refusing to partake in the pie at all.


I wonder if the homogeneity has come from gentrification and high property prices. NYC might have been a crime-ridden dump in the 60s, but it was cheap enough that Andy Warhol could afford to rent a massive studio. And a modern day Leonard Cohen wouldn't be welcome in the Chelsea Hotel.

Now you have to be a lawyer or work in finance to hope to even get a modest sized apartment in NYC.


That feels like a big factor. I see far more engineers and techies in SF than artists and poets. Not sure how many artists could survive in the city when not only rent is so expensive, but almost all other goods are also more expensive (largely because the stores and their employees pay those high rents too).


I feel like a lot of these debates boil down dealing with discomfort. We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable. The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow. You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.

Part of dealing with discomfort is learning what your limits are. No one should put themselves in a situation with you have a breakdown. I find that a small amount of stress in my life is good and results in growth. But a huge amount is overwhelming which leads to burnout.


This is the sort of take that just sounds entitled, because the person giving it is doing so from a position of not having discomfort created for them by the actions of someone else.

Like let's put this in context: replace "being an introvert" for "your friend flies you out to the forest, and then happily announces we're going to be hiking 20 km back to town. You really need to challenge yourself!"


Your replacement only strengthens the parent's point to me. Sounds like a fun little challenge that I would love if one of my friends gave me. I wish I had friends like that.


A convenient take, when you consider that (generally) extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts, because our modern Western society values extraversion more. The article is giving vibes of "extraverts are great and inherently good people, introverts are bad and need to grow up!"


"extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts"

This is a grass is always greener take, and definitely not true.

"because our modern Western society values extraversion more"

Everybody throughout humanity has valued extraversion more. This isn't something new. Humans are social creatures and people that are more social will be more successful at life. This will never change.

"introverts are bad and need to grow up"

This isn't necessarily the case. However, introverts need to figure out how to navigate the world, even when they aren't interested in socializing.

I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business settings) a nightmare.


> I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business settings) a nightmare.

I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare - such as refusing to write documentation or write proper tickets because "we can have a meeting instead". But I don't - because everyone is different and you can't just generalise like that. Being an introvert doesn't mean you're bad at communication or avoid confrontation.


"I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare"

I don't really see this very often. If someone isn't writing documentation or writing proper tickets, I don't think it has anything to do with being an extrovert/introvert.

"because everyone is different and you can't just generalise like that. Being an introvert doesn't mean you're bad at communication or avoid confrontation"

I've worked with lots of introverts over the years and although you may see it as a generalization, it's just my experience. In another way, you could call it my truth.


"Your truth" is very condescending though. It may be that the reason you're having trouble with introverts is your attitude towards them.

Also how do you reconcile what you're writing here with what you wrote less than a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42341572 ?


But who are you (or anyone for that matter) to decide that everyone should "grow" in areas X,Y,Z? I hate blanket statements like "We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable".

For example - I hate the modern office workplace 9-5 in-office bullshit. I know exactly what I want. I don't need to "grow" any more in this area. Can I do 9-5 in an office? Yes - but I fucking hate it and no amount of growth will change that. Why should I be forced to come into an office, for a job I do better at home, because Bob from management needs to be around people? I say to this - fuck Bob, Bob can go shit bricks.

Another example - I am very comfortable with living without any social media, or a smart phone, or a Tv, all at the same time. But, you don't see me going around forcing people into this way of being, and then when they find it horrible/stressful/uncomfortable saying "well maybe we are creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable, fuck your tv"

Instead - We are creating a society of non-thinkers, conformists, average-results-for-all, and dumb opinions like "well, I can deal with it - why can't you? Are you lazy/introverted/mentally-handicapped?"

I think challenging yourself is great, FOR SHIT THAT MATTERS. And only you can dictate what matters, fuck Bob or anyone else that tries to impose "what matters" on you.

The problem is, your statement sounds generalised to "challenge yourself in everything". I don't care for that, I care about challenging myself in a select few things of my choosing, I am my own man. I forge my destiny, I plow my path where I want to, not where society or Bob tells me.

------

And you know what the result will be for Bob and I?

Bob will not really grow as a person at all, his life will be all soft smoothed edges, not unique in any sense. Bob will be the same as everyone else with slight variations here and there, Bob will be boring, and at the end of Bobs life, on his deathbed he will say, "well, at least I didn't rock the boat!"

I, and others like me, will grow, in a unique sense, jagged edges, sharp incline and deep depressions. I will say when I die "I wish I leant even more into rocking the boat, capsizing it, just to see what would happen"


I agree. While some people are uncomfortable in social settings and/or talking alot, especially "small talk", other people are uncomfortable sitting in silence. BOTH types of people need to work on be more comfortable being uncomfortable. However, it's seen as rude to tell overs to just "be quiet for a bit and enjoy the silence" vs "you're socially awkward because you refuse to talk to me"...

My father in law seems unable to sit queitly in group settings. He performs too much small talk in my opinion. And it seems merely to fill the silence since they are often the same questions day in and day out. Either his memory is very bad, or he's not actually listening, just wanting to make noise. I've given up wasting my breath (re)answering the same questions. It seems he doesn't truly care about what others think, say, or feel... otherwise he might work on committing answers to memory. And even when folks start talking, he interrupts a lot... I truly hope it's not poor memory.



>We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable.

Huh? What a strange thing to say. Yeah, sure, you can't have that right exactly, simply because life is too unpredictable and from time to time stressors will come up, but surely someone has the right to build for themselves the conditions that minimize their stress and discomfort. Not wanting to be purposefully stressed and discomforted by others seems perfectly reasonable.

>The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow. You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.

Perhaps, but surely the choice of whether to live like that is the prerogative of each person.


I was diagnosed with dyslexia in my 40s. It's helped me understand why I struggle with certain tasks. Overall having a label has been a net positive.

I'm hesitant to share my diagnosis with colleagues. I've been able to develop coping mechanisms and I feel like it doesn't impact my day-to-day. I don't want to cause disruption for those around me. I do have a friend with much more severe dyslexia and she does get the help she needs to be productive.

I wish we could discuss these labels at work without baggage. It's all about consideration. Forcing everyone around you to change their behaviour around you to make yourself feel more comfortable is not being considerate. On the flip side enforcing strict working policies that prevent people from participating in the workplace is also not considerate.



Didn't expect to see EGS used as a reference here...

There's a kinda funny extra level to labels and preconceived notions in that one: "sister" is a cover story for his female duplicate who was created from a tech/magic mishap early in that comic.


To reinforce your argument, in the linked article GFS claim that they weren't responsible for the tax avoidance. The recruitment companies they subcontracted out came up with this wheeze.

Complex corporate structures enable plausible deniability. The CEO of GFS probably didn't know what was happening, but also probably didn't want to know whilst enjoying the low fees charged from the recruiters.


> Complex corporate structures enable plausible deniability.

It's literally managements job to be aware.

Imagine if a crossing guard waves cars through an intersection as children crossed and goes "Well, you know, I wasn't driving the car".


The UK government doesn't mandate units for reporting your own weight. The examples listed are required by law.


> The UK government doesn't mandate units for reporting your own weight.

Wait, you can just use a unit-less value?

  UK Govt Official Weight Form
  Weight: well-nourished


It seems obvious to me that LLMs wouldn't be able to find examples of every single problem posed to them in training data. There wouldn't be enough examples for the factual look up needed in an information retrieval style search. I can believe that they're doing some form of extrapolation to create novel solutions to posed problems.

It's interesting that this paper doesn't contradict the conclusions of the Apple LLM paper[0], where prompts were corrupted to force the LLM into making errors. I can also believe that LLMs can only make small deviations from existing example solutions in creation of these novel solutions.

I hate that we're using the term "reasoning" for this solution generation process. It's a term coined by LLM companies to evoke an almost emotional response on how we talk about this technology. However, it does appear that we are capable of instructing machines to follow a series of steps using natural language, with some degree of ambiguity. That in of itself is a huge stride forward.

[0] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/gsm-symbolic


I very much agree with the perspective that LLMs are not suited for “reasoning” in the sense of creative problem solving or application of logic. I think that the real potential in this domain is having them act as a sort of “compiler” layer that bridges the gap between natural language - which is imprecise - and formal languages (sql, prolog, python, lean, etc) that are more suited for solving these types of problems. And then maybe synthesizing the results / outputs of the formal language layer. Basically “agents”.

That being said, I do think that LLMs are capable of “verbal reasoning” operations. I don’t have a good sense of the boundaries that distinguish the logics - verbal, qualitative, quantitative reasoning. What comes to my mind is the verbal sections of standardized tests.


> I think that the real potential in this domain is having them act as a sort of “compiler” layer that bridges the gap between natural language - which is imprecise - and formal languages (sql, prolog, python, lean, etc) that are more suited for solving these types of problems. And then maybe synthesizing the results / outputs of the formal language layer. Basically “agents”.

Well, if you do all that, would you say that the system has a whole has 'reasoned'? (I think ChatGPT can already call out to Python.)


The system as a whole has reasoned twice over, verbally and then logically.


Well, pfisherman seems to disagree with that use of the word reasoning.


I can believe that they're doing some form of extrapolation to create novel solutions to posed problems

You can believe it what sort of evidence are you using for this belief?

Edit: Also, the abstract of the Apple paper hardly says "corruption" (implying something tricky), it says that they changed the initial numerical values


Changing numerical values doesn't do anything to impact the performance of state of the art models (4o, o1-mini, preview)

The only thing that does is the benchmark that introduces "seemingly relevant but ultimately irrelevant information"


> It's a term coined by LLM companies to evoke an almost emotional response on how we talk about this technology.

Anthropomorphizing computers has been happening long before ChatGPT. No one thinks their computer is actually eating their homework when they say that to refer to the fact that their computer crashed and their document wasn't saved, it's just an easy way to refer to the thing it just did. Before LLMs, "the computer is thinking" wasn't an unuttered sentence. Math terms aren't well known to everybody, so saying Claudr is dot-producting an essay for me, or I had ChatGPT dot-product that letter to my boss, no one knows that a dot product is, so even if that's a more technically accurate verb, who's gonna use it? So while AI companies haven't done anything to promote usage of different terms than "thinking" and "reasoning", it's also because those are the most handy terms. It "thinks" there are two R's in strawberries. It dot-products there are two R's in strawberries. It also matrix multiplies, occasionally softmaxes; convolves. But most people aren't Terence Tao and don't have a feel for when something's softmaxing because what even does that mean?


Totally, these companies are pushing towards showcasing their AI models as self thinking and reasoning AI while they are just trained of a lot of amount of data in dataset format which they extrapolate to find the right answer.

They still can't think outsider their box of datasets


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