That is Zuck's usual MO, so why not apply it when it's not to his advantage?

That doesn't make sense -- the parties to the conversation already _have_ the messages.

Spam prevention is a likely angle, however. EU should force it to be opt-out, not opt-in -- probably what people want anyway.

I would like to be opted out by default. I'm worried at least one of those new services is going to get overrun by spammers, and if I'm opted in by default they could use the gateway to whatsapp to spam everyone else.

Backup cameras are an enormous safety improvement. Plus touchscreens are much cheaper than buttons and knobs.

> Backup cameras are an enormous safety improvement.

Sure, however....

> Plus touchscreens are much cheaper than buttons and knobs.

And how much LESS safe is using a touchscreen while operating a motor vehicle? Its literally no different from using an iPad.

There are large implementation differences in touch screens. My wife's care needs several second: turn the radio on, wait for the splash screen, press the drives heat control, wait for it to appear (100s of ms - long enough to notice) then find the button in the miedle of the screen - finally I can change the heated seats. My car that button is always has the button at the bottom of the screen in the same place so is is ms to look and see.

You still lose the tactile feedback of the button though. It's much harder to hit it while not looking versus a physical knob.

There's a reason Euro NCAP requires physical climate controls for ca models to get a five star safety rating starting in 2026.

I responded to a comment about screens.

You don't need 'dual 12.3" touch screens' for a reversing camera.

I should have mentioned a digital dashboard is also cheaper than a traditional one, I guess. But isn't that obvious?

What's that got to do with reversing cameras?

Dual screens. One for infotainment, including the backup camera, the other for the dash.

Have you never seen a newer model car?

I feel like you're deliberately missing the point.

You don't need them to have a reversing camera. Literally millions of cars over the past 2 decades have perfectly fine reversing cameras using the screen of a regular double-DIN deck (or fold out single-DIN deck).

I, too, felt you were being intentionally dense in this thread. We've just been talking past each other.

I don't see a meaningful distinction between a screen on a DIN unit and an integrated screen.

With Android Auto or the ios equivalent -- a hard requirement for most car buyers today -- a touchscreen is basically required.

Other "smart" features aren't required but I'm not surprised car companies want to try and extract value from in-car tech. It's got nothing to do with providing value to consumers.

> I don't see a meaningful distinction between a screen on a DIN unit and an integrated screen.

Someone questioned why a car needs two 12" touch screens.

To which you replied

> Backup cameras are an enormous safety improvement.

My entire point is, that there's zero relationship between having a backup camera, and needing a 12" touchscreen, or a touch screen of any kind.

If your backup camera needs a touch screen, you've already failed. The entire point is that it activates automatically and deactivates automatically.

They've been available for literally decades - Toyota had a production model with a reversing camera in the fucking 80s.

Nothing else you've said since is related to your claim "Backup cameras are an enormous safety improvement" and that claim is completely unrelated to OP's question about why a car needs not one but two 12" touch screens.

I assume GP meant cars with internet connectivity features, not (real) self driving tech.

The assertion that 'I just hope "dumb" EV's become a thing soon' led me to a different assumption. The ultimate aspiration of a "smart" EV is self-driving, which incorporates Internet connectivity features (e.g. digital mapping, over the air updates, etc).

"Smart" in all other classes of purchases typically means IoT / Internet connected.

The computerization of formerly mechanical features making it harder to DIY repair is a separate but also valid concern, though I'm not sure how it applies to EVs.

Added: see https://x.com/IntCyberDigest/status/2011758140510142890 for exactly the kind of thing that nobody wants.

I prefer Gnome. There's hardly any visual clutter, and it can be controlled primarily by keyboard (which I prefer). Every other environment, even MacOS, just has so much noise.

I tried a clean install of Windows on a lunar lake laptop and it couldn't even find the disk. This is a device that ships with Windows!

It's just not feasible to have 100% out of the box hardware compatibility.

Android is running on Linux. It's not the kernel that's the problem, it's the application layer.

Is it really crazy? Some stuff runs faster and some runs slower, and I deal with less bullshit. I was already running with 17-20% reduced power limits anyway.

Eh, I think people are increasingly tired of being pushed to use Microsoft crap even if they don't want to. Hell, you can't even make a local account easily anymore on Windows. It feels actively hostile.

I think a lot of people would prefer to deal with the different inconveniences of Linux.

Massive depreciation means cheap used EVs. I don't see the issue.

Luxury ICE vehicles also depreciate rapidly, and yet they're quite popular. Plus EVs are likely to have longer usable lifetimes -- though with different issues -- than gas cars.

Luxury vehicles I've never understood, especially the non Lexus variety. so don't expect me to explain that.

Due to all the people in my fmaily I have 4 cars so I wouldn't go from 1 EV to 2. If the current EV gets destroyed I do think that used EVs are the right way to go and would buy a used one for sure.

They do still feel like throwaway cars. I'm not sure how you can argue they will have a longer lifetime. If the battery dies surely no one is replacing that at cost? It's more than the car is worth. At least with an ICE each part can be replaced in your driveway with a few hundred in tools and the part probably exists locally used or new.

I bought 1 used EV a few years ago. That thing seems like it won't age, everything works like day 1. My next car will be an EV, for sure.

Have you ever heard, "You get what you pay for?" If used EVs were worth a damn, they would drive down the prices of petrol vehicles too.

>Plus EVs are likely to have longer usable lifetimes -- though with different issues -- than gas cars.

You need to do some basic research, friend. EV batteries are not designed to be replaced at any sane price. They are built even more crappy than late model petrol vehicles. EVs depreciate rapidly because their useful life is short and problems are many. A 10 year old Honda Civic with a gas engine likely has another 10 or 20 years of life left.

An EV probably has a max life of about 15 years without a MAJOR overhaul which is likely not even doable for less than the price of a new EV, if you can even find someone willing to do it. Battery integrity is very hard to determine from sensors and external examination. If a cell has been damaged, it can start an inextinguishable fire which could take out a whole garage. These factors further hurt the resale value.

EVs were popular before petrol engines were perfected. But those EVs had swappable and relatively stable batteries and the cars did not have to conform to modern standards for acceleration, crash safety, and range.