This is dreadfully close in name to Doc Detective, an actively developed open-source tool launched several years ago with a very similar goal of associating tests with documentation contents to flag drift and automate corrections. https://doc-detective.com/, https://github.com/doc-detective/doc-detective
First, you're certainly lucky. Secondly, the emphasis should be on "by default"; managers can, and some easily and quickly do, prove that they aren't adversarial. But companies (especially tech companies with high stress on unsustainable growth) don't often incentivize that, and sometimes disincentivize it whether they mean to or not.
> At a news conference, Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O’Hara said the man who was shot was a 37-year-old white man with no serious criminal history and a record that showed some parking tickets. Law enforcement sources said Saturday their records show Pretti had no serious criminal history.
> O'Hara said the man was a “lawful gun owner” with a permit. Records show that Pretti attended the University of Minnesota. State records show Pretti was issued a nursing license in 2021, and it remains active through March 2026.
> Q: Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm?
> A: Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.
So a U.S. citizen who is a legal, permitted gun owner with no outstanding criminal charges, legally carrying in public, who complies with the law and informs a DHS officer that they are legally carrying, is effectively subject to summary execution without due process. (The penalty for permitted carrying without possessing the physical permit card is $25 for a first offense and forfeiture of the weapon; it would've been his first offense per Minneapolis police.)
If ever there was a 2A violation, it's a federal officer shooting and killing a legal gun owner solely for possessing a gun in their presence.
Possessing a fire arm and having an encounter with law enforcement in the united states has long been a death sentence. You can find a multitude of videos online of cops doing stuff like getting the wrong address and beating on someones door and when that person opens the door with a gun in their hand and then the cops open fire, happens all the time.
But this person did not even have a gun in his hand. He had a gun on him, concealed. In fact, the video shows another ICE agent walking up to him and digging it out and taking it away. The execution happened after all of that.
The most likely situation is that he actually voluntarily told them that he has a firearm because he is a lawful gun owner with a concealed carry permit. Most gun owners know that this is the best way to interact with law-enforcement, for example, when you get pulled over. But we will not know because these agents do not wear body cams on purpose.
>The most likely situation is that he actually voluntarily told them that he has a firearm because he is a lawful gun owner with a concealed carry permit. Most gun owners know that this is the best way to interact with law-enforcement, for example, when you get pulled over. But we will not know because these agents do not wear body cams on purpose.
People have differing opinions, however the opinion most persuasive to me is you only tell them if asked unless the law requires otherwise. Volunteering you have a gun when there is no requirement to do so in my opinion adds unnecessary tension to the situation. IDK about in Minnesota, but in my state there is no duty to inform the police and you can basically only downsides to doing so, since they will be asking before you get into any situation where they're going to be going into your waistband to find out.
In one of the states I lived in, IIRC they changed the law to remove duty to inform because their cops had a history of executing people that informed them.
Oh, I completely agree in addition to murdering this man they violated his second amendment rights and will continue to violate them in justifying his murder.
The writing was on the wall with the Patriot Act. “When we say you’re a terrorist, you lose all rights and protections” is merely a gradual difference to what is happening now.
To me, this looks very much like testing the waters. Stephen Miller said, "To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity." ICE has blocked state law enforcement from investigations into the killings. ICE has said they're done with their investigation of the last one, and those fuckers are still working.
The bundies had a whole militia, and the last time federal LEO challenged a militia of his size (Waco) they had like 700+ casualties due to inspiring McVeigh (he was there). They basically lost 20:1 versus the Davidians.
Cliven Bundy is still grazing his cattle on that BLM land to this day.
The bargain with law enforcement has always been that ostensibly if you comply, they will take you in peacefully. For obvious reasons, this is highly advantageous to both parties.
It seems like a foolish choice for them to reneg on this. They are essentially signaling that you are a trapped rat with no way out.
That’s true if you want to keep the peace. The way to read their actions is that they’re trying to incite violence.
If Trump can incite violence then he can invoke the insurrection act, or perhaps declare some form of martial law to seize more power. Perhaps even parlay this into cancelling the midterm elections.
I don't think the phrasing of "confront law enforcement" is right here, in a period of about 20 seconds he went from helping a woman who had been pushed, to maced in the face, to dead. This is not confrontation, you can literally see him clutching the woman he had previously been helping up in a panic after they were sprayed with chemicals.
But setting all of that aside (which is a big aside), even if he was confronting them with his camera while armed, the whole bullshit shtick of the second amendment is that being armed should not be a crime much less a death sentence. He did not brandish his weapon or threaten law enforcement in any of the half dozen videos that have been released so far. To be even more clear as a citizen you are allegedly supposed to be protected from summary execution/judgement with or without the possession of a firearm, in many legal circles the possession of a firearm grants you more protections under the law not less.
They had him pinned to the ground and disarmed when they shot him in the back, based off the various analyses of the videos. So the shooting is going to be very hard to justify (though they'll try really hard, and so will you it seems).
> Private citizens on the street confronting law enforcement
What actions are you alleging qualifies as confronting? Be specific. Unless I have a wildly different definition of confronting, everything I've read and every video I've seen from different angles shows the opposite.
(This is setting aside the fact that having a concealed carry permit and carrying a legal firearm is not a death sentence in this country.)
The friends I know with concealed carry tend to keep it on them to feel safe, and partly just out of habit / feeling fulfilled in exercising their 2A right.
Not related to this situation, but in the city I live in, it's better to keep it on your person than in your car because kids are breaking into cars precisely because they know people from the suburbs visiting downtown might have one in their glove box.
Yes, I would, for the same reason I refuse to say anything at the border other than "I'm an American citizen," and for the same reason I refuse to say a word to the police during a traffic stop other than "I reserve my fifth amendment right to remain silent."
Rights aren't rights if you don't get to actually use them.
Right now Americans are learning the lessons of the black panthers: constitutionally protected "rights" are only rights so long as your flexing of them isn't inconvenient to the State. We've been shouting this at McMilitias for decades now.
Have you considered why? It's telling that you haven't answered my question: How exactly did the victim confront law enforcement?
I can't speak for everyone here but frankly, I find these "Would you do X?" questions irrelevant and I struggle to see a good faith reason for asking them. I can think of many bad faith reasons, for example shifting blame to the victim to remove focus from the border patrol agents' actions. Or a more charitable interpretation is you view this as a simple matter of cause and effect: if he didn't bring a gun he'd still be alive; or perhaps, if he stayed home altogether he'd still be alive. Is that your motivation for asking these questions?
Setting aside the fact that no, we don't know those things to be true, I don't think that interpretation of your intent is much better. But you also haven't been forthcoming with why you're placing so much importance on these questions.
He wasn't screaming at them, he was filming them and then later helping up someone else who had been assaulted by them. Not that it should matter, screaming at the feds is protected first amendment activity.
I would probably not do that, but it's not illegal to carry a gun. Who knows if he set out to protest or if he just was in the area and spontaneously decided to record when he observed federal agents? He could be one of many Americans who carry a gun regularly. Maybe he didn't intend to do any protesting or anything at all.
I don't see any evidence that he was resisting. His hands were on the ground and he allowed himself to be disarmed. I did not hear any commands before the dogpile and subsequent gunshots. If I'm missing something please tell me what to listen for in the videos and I'll watch again.
The implication being that summary execution is a perfectly acceptable punishment for not immediately falling on the ground with your hands behind your back when a “law enforcement” goon eve looks at you?
Lol, here we go again. "If you do not obey the orders of the execution squad as they are killing you, then their killing you is justified. After all, they are lAw eNfOrCeMeNt!!!1!!"
> So a U.S. citizen who is a legal, permitted gun owner with no outstanding criminal charges, legally carrying in public, who complies with the law and informs a DHS officer that they are legally carrying, is effectively subject to summary execution without due process.... a federal officer shooting and killing a legal gun owner solely for possessing a gun in their presence.
> "The officers attempted to disarm the suspect but the armed suspect violently resisted. More details on the armed struggle are forthcoming."
And then, from the DHS:
> ...when a federal agent feared for his life, "an agent fired defensive shots." ... Border Patrol Cmdr. Greg Bovino said that the officer involved in the shooting "has extensive training," and that "the situation is evolving." Bovino added that the incident would be investigated.
(TFA includes the claim of self-defense.)
"Summary execution" and "without due process" is emotionally manipulative phrasing. It falsely implies that LEO use of lethal force is about punishment. It is not about punishment. It is about responding to perceived threat.
All this stuff about permit cards, the victim's lack of criminal history, etc. is irrelevant. It is not connected to the motivation for the shooting. There is nothing to establish that the shooting was "solely for" that possession, and LEO denies that claim. There is no plausible universe in which the officer says "please show me the permit for that weapon", Pretti says "I don't have it", and the officer shoots. But that's the narrative you appear to be trying to push.
> The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) posted on X further details about what led up to the shooting. "DHS law enforcement officers were conducting a targeted operation in Minneapolis against an illegal alien wanted for violent assault, an individual approached US Border Patrol officers with a 9 mm semi-automatic handgun, seen here," the post reads.
> O'Hara said that Pretti was a “lawful gun owner” with a permit.
> "The officers attempted to disarm the suspect but the armed suspect violently resisted. More details on the armed struggle are forthcoming."
> The DHS wrote that when a federal agent feared for his life, "an agent fired defensive shots." The post also noted that the "suspect" had "2 magazines and no ID."
By any ordinary reading of prose, the article is attributing the quote to O'Hara.
The statement you say was O'Hara was made by McLaughlin (DHS employee). If the article implies otherwise, it's incorrect.
Here's the facts as I see them:
A protestor who had a gun he was legally allowed to carry got involved in an incident with ICE/Border Patrol. The protestor was interacting with the agents and other protestors, at which point BP or ICE pepper sprayed him and took him down to the ground. At least 4 different federal officers were physically holding him. at this point it appears they disarmed him (unclear) and then shortly after, shot him.
At no point did the protestor hold the gun in a threatening way while approaching, when he was taken down he did not have a gun in his hands, and while down, it's very unlikely he could access the gun and use it in a way that any reasonable officer would feel unsafe and be required to shoot the protestor.
Based on the videos I've watched, the protestor made some ill-advised choices getting physically involved, but there was no reason for him to be shot. I read various online conservative communities (to try to understand their reasoning) and nearly all the posts I see seem to think that ICE/BP truly made an error here, possibly due to poor training.
I understand your point about the use of emotional terms, I try to avoid them and instead focus on facts and known unknowns, but in this particular situation, it's pretty clear that ICE/BP made an egregious error in a way that is clearly obvious to everybody (even those who would normally support the federal officers) and in denying this, the federal leadership is undermining itself. This is a situation where they could de-escalate and not immediately blame the protestor, while focusing on increasing the training of the ICE/BP officers, rather than taking an aggresive posture.
This would imply it was an unintentional mistake which is far from obvious. If they recognized it was an egregious error the perpetrators would be prosecuted and they won’t be.
> training of the ICE/BP officers
What makes you think it’s something they want to avoid repeating in the future? (Not /s)
My wife who is very offline saw a Bovino photo yesterday and asked me point blank “why is he dressed like a Nazi? he looks like that guy from Man In The High Castle”
I guess I use the term "authoritarian cosplay" or maybe "authoritarian LARP" but he's taken it further than just play and posturing. He seems to truly idolize and identify with the authoritarians of the past.
What I also find extraordinary is that there is no consistent uniform, for example if you watch the video this post refers to, all the agents are wearing random combinations of personal clothing ("tactical" or "hunting") which makes them look more like a militia than federal officers.
This is the sort of federal policing force the libertarian right always conspiracy mongers about, and now that they are the ones in power its good, actually.
The language being used by the president to describe immigrants is on par with how the enemy was talked about during the war on terror. ICE has been told they are immune from prosecution, and the recruitment videos are basically white nationalist cosplay.
Now they are being surged, masked, poorly uniformed, poorly trained into US cities, as if they were Fallujah.
The problem is some are using only their ears to listen to what they are told happened by those responsible for and overseeing the officers involved and refusing you use their eyes and watch the videos. It seems some just want to believe (a lie) and not dig into know the truth.
A funny thing about the "stages of grief" is that they are a total myth and the originator of the hypothesis never intended them to be abused this way.
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross did her research solely on people who were dying: people with terminal illnesses, and she studied how they coped with facing their own mortality. Not how other people did.
And of course, even for a dying person, this may be total bunk. It is not like some programmed flowchart that people go through five stages of emotional stuff. This is just, like, a framework for further therapy.
I'm actually studying this stuff right now. In the 1980s and 1990s, "The Five Stages of Grief" were basically a household phrase, and everybody talked about them like they were real and true and invariable. But everyone doing the talking had never actually studied the research or even knew who proposed it. They were just parroting headlines.
Also, to be obviously, the statement you attributed to O'Hara is inconsistent with what he would say given his role.
While I totally appreciate that you don't like people using emotional verbiage or making false conclusions biased by their own beliefs, the reality here is that basically no objective independent observer would say that the government's statements are true and accurate. And I also think that careful analysis of the videos by that same observer would conclude the agents made an egregious error in the heat of the moment. Constantly doubling down about how you're the rational one, when there is ample evidence otherwise simply weakens your own position and makes people less likely to bother reading what you have to say.
DHS lies as easily as they breathe. They have proven they cannot be believed.
A previous example:
You can watch the video for yourself of an ICE masked thug grabbing a man's carotid artery, when NOT facing a deadly threat, against DOJ rules. You can watch him seize and his eyes roll back. And you can choose to believe your eyes or DHS' lies. What do you think, zahlman?
> In a social media post after the incident and in its statement to ProPublica, DHS did not cite a deadly threat. Instead, it referenced the charges against Zapata Rivera’s wife and suggested he had only pretended to have a medical crisis while refusing help from paramedics. “Imagine FAKING a seizure to help a criminal escape justice,” the post said.
I suspect it won't matter to you, but there's clear footage now of officers having removed the gun from the suspect long before he was shot. He was pinned and prone when he was executed. Claiming this was "defensive" is just a lie.
I've watched four videos but haven't seen any footage (clear or otherwise) of gun removal. Can you post a link to clear footage of the removal?
One video [1] shows someone walking away from the scene with a gun a fraction of a second before the shooting begins. But I can't see that the gun was removed from the protester.
Thanks. The link is to a Bellingcat analysis. They did great work on the Renee Good shooting, but in this case, they're describing stills from videos, and I can't see what they're seeing in the photos. The photos are just too fuzzy---at least for me, and I suspect for most other viewers.
I don't mean to diminish the importance of the shooting, which is horrific no matter what one makes of the photos.
I think it's factually correct to say that none of the videos give a truly clear view of the order of events (specfically with regards to whether the protestor could possibly have wielded their gun while being restrained by agents, or whether he is disarmed by the gray-jacketed agent, or what caused the agents to fire when they did).
It might be clearer if the agents were wearing bodycam videos and that footage was released.
I'm sure you'll still find something in there to quibble with, so have at it. Like, you can't see the guys hands, so maybe he had a second weapon! Could happen!
I don't know if this is your intent or not, but by engaging in this kind of framing you're essentially saying that all violence[1] is excusable by default. We're supposed to live in a society where the opposite is true, I thought.
[1] All violence by your allied authority figures, that is. We both know you wouldn't grant the same grace and charity to the intentions of the protestors.
I think you completely and totally misread my comment and incorrectly imputed my intent. I am in no way allied with ICE, what they are doing is abhorrent and wrong. I'm not sure why you're attacking me or assuming I have a position completely opposite of the one I have. I used caveat words- "I think it's factual". That's the way somebody states their subjective opinion of what they believe the facts are.
I have nothing to quibble with the video you linked (which I think must have been released since I made my comment, or I missed it), that makes the order of events a lot clearer, I can see the gun being taken now, and the timing of the shot.
> whether the protestor could possibly have wielded their gun while being restrained by agents, or whether he is disarmed by the gray-jacketed agent, or what caused the agents to fire when they did
Is a list of excuses for the shooting (to wit: "maybe he wielded the gun", "maybe he wasn't disarmed", "maybe they had cause to fire"). It's all things that would have (arguably) made it justified. You'll have to forgive me if I took that for a clear indication of your opinion here.
Like, if you look at something and say "Well, it looks like X happened, but I don't know", it's neutral. If you say "It looks like X happened, but I don't know because it could have been Y or Z instead', you're pretty clearly constructing a sideways argument that "X did not happen". And thus, you'll end up being painted as an X denialist by people on the internet too lazy to find your comment history.
LEO are also individuals who get due process rights. The law will generally require considering whether Y or Z happened if there's reason to suppose that it might have.
More importantly, when X is phrased in a way that implies intent or motives not in evidence, or plays up the injustice of X in legally irrelevant ways, that's reason to push back in an open Internet discussion.
> if there's reason to suppose that it might have.
That's the part that dekhn skipped above, and which I called out. In point of fact "Y and Z" are clearly shown to be false per the evidence, so pontificating about them amounts to pure spin. Creative storytelling in defense of a political point is very bad to begin with, doing it in defense of a killing is horrifying.
To dekhn's credit, he seems shamed enough to be yelling about the implication. I'm not sure that you've made that leap yet.
> but by engaging in this kind of framing you're essentially saying that all [state] violence is excusable by default
I disagree that it has that effect. With the assumption of good faith, comments like GP aren't fishing around for an excuse; the point is to highlight what's legally relevant and where there is room to disagree with the interpretation of video.
I don't think it's plausible that defense for the agents would clutch for a straw like "maybe he had a second weapon". That seems sarcastic and not interested in engaging with the argument seriously.
I've seen a couple different videos now (not from any links ITT) and the most commonly shown one seems to have something obscuring the camera at a critical moment. Nevertheless, it seems highly probable that the man is indeed disarmed well before the first shot. But there will still be more that matters:
* Was the first shot fired by an officer who knew that the weapon had already been taken? In particular, could there have been any miscommunication between the officers?
* Did the victim know the weapon had been taken? I don't think it would be likely to succeed in court, but to my understanding the defense could raise the argument that one or more officers perceived that the victim still intended to draw and fire it.
Ultimately, it boils down to establishing whether there was a reasonable perception, on the part of any officer that fired (I can't tell from the video I've seen who fired or how many shots or anything like that), of a threat from the victim meeting the legal standard to respond with lethal force. This is based on "totality of the circumstances" (as in things the officers knew leading up to the moment of shooting), but specifically based on what a reasonable officer would have been able to deduce in the moment (a high-pressure situation), without the benefit of hindsight.
Most analyses I've seen thus far agree that there was not any solid defense here. Certainly it seems much more likely that someone is going to prison for this than in the Renee Good case. The DHS says they will be investigating.
I can't hear or see them, no. The video footage available isn't high enough quality. There's too much chaos, people are using phones that they can't hold steady, etc.
> I don't know if this is your intent or not, but by engaging in this kind of framing you're essentially saying that all violence[1] is excusable by default. We're supposed to live in a society where the opposite is true, I thought.
> [1] All violence by your allied authority figures, that is. We both know you wouldn't grant the same grace and charity to the intentions of the protestors.
This is a disgraceful ad hominem attack. The previous poster's comment is entirely sensible, and it takes a great deal of intellectual dishonesty to portray it as a defense of ICE in any way.
An ad hominem argument is an argument constructed around characteristics of a person outside the bounds of what is being discussed. Inferring someone's opinion[1] about the subject under discussion from their text, and explicitly marking so in my text when doing so, is just "debate". Am I wrong? Say I'm wrong and cite why.
Don't call me "disgraceful". Why? Because THAT is an ad hominem attack. In fact the clear offense being taken makes it pretty clear to me that my point landed closer than maybe you're prepared to admit.
[1] You cleverly skipped the point where I even admitted I might be wrong!
So, yes, the second sentence in their [1] is a clear ad hominem but this is a pretty wild take:
> it takes a great deal of intellectual dishonesty to portray it as a defense of ICE in any way
Regardless of your opinion, I'll portray it as a defense of ICE, anyway.
> > So a U.S. citizen who is a legal, permitted gun owner with no outstanding criminal charges, legally carrying in public, who complies with the law and informs a DHS officer that they are legally carrying, is effectively subject to summary execution without due process.... a federal officer shooting and killing a legal gun owner solely for possessing a gun in their presence.
> This completely misrepresents what happened.
I don't strictly disagree with the idea that "solely for having a gun" is a misrepresentation, either (after all, the ICE agents had guns and they weren't executed), but it's not a "complete" misrepresentation. (The actual misrepresentation is that the victim was helping someone who was being abused by the agents and he had a gun.) Calling it a "complete misrepresentation" is seeking to emotionally prime the reader against the supposed illogic in the parent comment. That is indeed a defense of the ICE agents (and such defenses and excuses can be seen throughout their comment history, hence, I presume, the ad hominem).
Somehow, still, I doubt that's the framing zahlman would accept about the situation, especially given their (obvious) defense of ICE's actions in their initial comment. Yes, the ad hominem statement you refer to should not have been included. But it is surely not intellectually dishonest regardless of how inappropriate it is for this forum. Given the quote from their initial comment, it seems that said dishonesty cuts the other direction.
The ad hominem attack was addressed to dekhn, not me. So whether I defend ICE generally is irrelevant to assessing the accusation "We both know you wouldn't grant the same grace and charity to the intentions of the protestors."
But also, my defense is not about treating protestors uncharitably. Telling me "We both know you wouldn't grant the same grace and charity to the intentions of the protestors." would still be ad hominem, because my arguments do not rely upon protestors being malicious.
Except for the physical obstruction of justice aspect, which isn't in question. 1A doesn't give people the right to get in an LEO's way when that officer is actively trying to enforce law. Protestors shouldn't physically be in the path of on-duty law enforcement if they expect not to get arrested. Arrest is a natural consequence of "civil disobedience". For a more extreme example, "freedom of assembly" for me and my friends does not extend as far as "assembling" in a tight circle around you that denies your freedom of movement. (Note: I am neither an American citizen nor an American resident, but these principles are not difficult to understand, and not sufficiently different from Canadian law to matter for this discussion.)
But for example in the Good case, I don't believe she intended to run over the officer, but that doesn't matter to the officer's perception of threat. And in point of fact, he was struck (although NYT reported that he wasn't "run over", and then other outlets presented this as if he wasn't struck).
At no point did I claim not to be defending the ICE agents, so let's please not talk about intellectual dishonesty there.
----
Regarding the bit you quoted from me:
I responded prematurely to the situation based on my experience from every single previous discussion of ICE agents I found myself in. I don't see how there's a problem with offering a defense of ICE in general. You can't just say that one side of an argument is barred, if you're going to have a discussion at all. (And the reason HN permits political submissions like this is because they want people in tech to have discussions. The relationship of the story to tech is tangential at best.)
I said "completely misrepresents" because "solely for having a gun" is completely false, and because it should be rejected as absurd a priori. That's just not how entanglements with law enforcement play out, and ignores that probably many lawful gun owners were rightly ignored (given that MN allows concealed carry of handguns). People are seriously now arguing as if they believe that a Republican government is stripping away 2A rights by force. I don't understand how that could possibly pass anyone's sniff test.
But I also said it because it's part of a long string of loaded language — the stuff I went on to dissect. The victim's virtue is played up, seemingly to make the event seem more egregious, even though it's clearly irrelevant to the cause of action. Or else it's being played up to try to bolster the "solely for" case by denying other reasons for the shoot. Regardless of whether it was justified (I agree that it will likely not be found justified), the actual cause of action is clear.
(Having seen multiple videos now, I can't hear the part where Pretti supposedly "informs a DHS officer that he is legally carrying". The part where one of the officers is shouting about he has a gun, would seem to contradict that; because it comes across that the officer first saying it is surprised to see that he has a gun.)
Most importantly, "effectively subject to summary execution without due process" is an unreasonable way to characterize LEO use of lethal force, both in general and I believe in this specific instance. One or more people messed up and this guy shouldn't have gotten shot. But that is miles away from what it would actually take to justify that phrasing. That would require:
* everyone who shot could clearly see, from their own perspectives, that the gun had already been taken away;
* before firing, they took enough time to respond to that change in the situation;
* at the time of firing, they had the mens rea that the victim should die as punishment for what had happened up to that point.
These are simply things that you can't prove with video footage like this. I can't even tell who shot. It's a chaotic scramble recorded from distant third-person perspectives, with important parts of the action obscured from line of sight by other important parts of the action. Yes, there's enough to see the gun being taken away before gunshots (apparently) but that's a lucky break considering everything else. (When I first saw the footage from the angle on the street, I thought it was happening on the sidewalk rather than in front of the parked car; of course the other angle being from the sidewalk disproves that.)
Anyway, I simply can't fathom how you think that the term "complete misrepresentation" is "seeking to emotionally prime the reader". Like, what words could I possibly use instead that aren't supposedly emotionally manipulative, given that I actually did sincerely consider the statement a complete misrepresentation?
For that matter, I think your characterization "helping someone who was being abused by the agents and he had a gun." is still misrepresentative. He was obstructing and resisting. And, yes, he had a gun, which is dangerous any time one gets in a physical altercation with any kind of LEO. People with CC permits should understand that.
And everyone else is annoyed by the fact that for some reason you still act like DHS isn't just continuously lying, repeating their statements as if they reflect what we all saw happen on video.
> "The officers attempted to disarm the suspect but the armed suspect violently resisted. More details on the armed struggle are forthcoming."
This has already been proven to be a lie thanks to the five different videos of the incident in question. They shot him after removing his legal weapon for concealed carry that he was permitted to have on his person.
Here's the full incident [1] [2]. Watch [1], then [2]. The man in the gray coat is the one that retrieves the gun, before any shots are fired. Frankly if you don't change your opinion after this, then I'm going to either assume you're a federal agent attempting to maintain the propaganda line or so absolutely psychotic that you belong well and away from proper society.
You say that as if there were something inherently wrong with offering such a defense. That is simply not so.
It is, in fact, possible for shootings by LEO to be justified. And the federal ICE agents are, in fact, law enforcement. Walz and/or Frey are factually incorrect when they assert otherwise, it's trivially looked up, relevant legal statues like 8 U.S. Code § 1357 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1357) are quite clear about the agents' powers (which as an objective matter of fact do include situations where they may arrest US citizens without a warrant), and Walz and Frey have no real excuse for their false assertions.
You don't have to like laws that entitle law enforcement to use lethal force in limited circumstances (which seem to be only slightly broader than those extended to ordinary citizens), but the US does in fact have such laws, at both state and federal level. And the consequence of not having them, practically speaking, is that criminals kill officers and/or go free.
And as it happens, there's a clear defense in the Good case. I've already pointed at actual lawyers saying the same and explaining it in detail. And my submission of that (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46596055) got flagged for no good reason.
Thanks. I watched the videos. It's a horrific event. But I can't see that either of the videos shows a gun being removed from a protester. At the end of [2], someone does seem to walk away from the scene holding a gun, just a fraction of a second before the shooting begins. But I can't see any point at which a gun is removed from a protester.
> Frankly if you don't change your opinion after this, then I'm going to either assume you're a federal agent attempting to maintain the propaganda line or so absolutely psychotic that you belong well and away from proper society.
I am not watching your videos just because you said this. I approached the situation with a respectful disagreeing opinion and the information available to me. Everyone else here is being unreasonable and completely in violation of commenting guidelines.
So you're saying you can show me a video where it's clear that the gun is in an LEO's physical possession, everyone involved clearly has time to update on this information, and someone makes an evidently conscious decision to shoot him anyway, despite him clearly no longer posing a physical threat?
Their decision to escalate the situation in the first place is a clear indication of that.
> no longer posing a physical threat?
Can you show a video of the gun leaving its holster before that then? Or are you saying that merely possessing a firearm regardless of circumstances is grounds for an immediate execution?
These are not the people who deserve benefit of the doubt. They have already amply demonstrated what they are capable of. Indeed, they even openly boast of it.
> "Summary execution" and "without due process" is emotionally manipulative phrasing.
It's exactly what this was, though. He was disarmed before being shoved to the ground and beaten with a gas grenade. There is another video which shows that his hands are on the ground or in front of his face, the entire time he's down, long before he's shot.
If this is a joke, it's a bad one. If it's not, it's even dumber.
The point could be made by having it design and print implements for an indoor container grow and then run lights and water over a microcontroller. Like Anthropic's vending machine this would also be an already addressed, if not solved, space for both home manufacturing and ag/garden automation.
It'd still be novel to see an LLM figure it out from scratch step by step, and a hell of a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck this is. Googling farmland in Iowa or Texas and then writing instructions for people to do the actual work isn't novel or interesting; of course an LLM can write and fill out forms. But the end result still primarily relies on people to execute those forms and affect the world, invalidating the point. Growing corn would be interesting, project managing corn isn't.
The interfaces, CLI and Podman Desktop, are still not at parity. Podman contributors will be the first to tell you this.
That's not to say they aren't effective, or even good, at least for the CLI. They're just still catching up. It's not and shouldn't be a surprise considering the head start.
> Like everything, the original intentions must have been noble.
It was, ca. 2012-15. Sysadmins making automation tools so they could offload the horseshit, often batshit bash/perl scripting work, of manually provisioning dev environments (on VMs, or even basic configuration of new bare metal) to devs, who were already more comfortable with writing their own automation. Devs can unblock themselves, and devs hate relying on anyone else and everyone worships and fears the devs, so fine, give them the sysadmins' rope and rafters.
Moving to a "cattle not pets" mentality for servers well before the proliferation of containers and microservices, much less the mainstreaming of serverless workflows and cloud compute. CI/CD, to make software release processes scriptable, or even better declarative, tasks that could be tested and verified in version-controlled source _before_ being deployed, just like the software itself.
Better automation and better testing meant devs could ship safer and faster; devs owning pipelines meant devs could fix dev-related problems faster.
A lot of early devops tools were written by sysadmins who were tired of being buried by rapidly growing requests to unblock developers, who were outnumbering them by the hundreds or thousands to one at FANG companies (pre-FAANG, much less the big six).
Puppet attacked config management by turning it into declarative code, Ansible made that easier to deploy; Luke Kanies and Michael DeHaan came from sysadmin. HashiCorp made VM provisioning scalable; Armon Dadgar and Mitchell Hashimoto were compsci students who hated doing ops work with rudimentary early cloud services. Most of their early sales inroads into companies came from IT departments using their open-source products; most of their early evangelists were IT executives.
Google splintering devops into the SRE role they coined mostly reflected how they (thought they) had made the "devs unblocking themselves on provisioning" problem that had inspired a lot of foundation tools simply part of the dev culture, especially through GCS and k8s. They didn't think about "devops" anymore much like people don't think about breathing, and narrowed their focus onto uptime.
That was really the failure IMO, that the idea was mostly a cultural one: people working on a problem should also have a stake in, or ownership of, the things they need to unblock their work. A dev being "blocked" from dev work by IT because only IT can provision a piece of hardware or stand up a VM is a cultural problem; the largely open-source tools made by sysadmins and junior/student devs were a response to an entrenched enterprise culture that showed no interest in doing the work necessary to solve that problem.
The tools forced the culture change, but then the tools created their own culture, and the world that defined the culture also changed beneath them. But the companies built around those tools didn't want to die, so they turned devops into whatever might keep them alive.
The problem isn't that "devops" failed to do the job it set out to do (make sysadmins' lives easier), it's that the entire problem area changed so much, and so quickly, that its goal was no longer relevant. There were no "sysadmins" left to help; there are still systems, and there are still administrators, but their responsibilities have been diced up and tossed into the organizational winds.
Not quite as easy of a narrative for the founder of an ops company selling an ops product to frame in a company blog post, though. Not that things in the post are necessarily wrong, but IMO the problem isn't "devops failed", it's why the fuck are we still talking about devops? The word means nothing anymore, its massive overloading pollutes any discussion about who's having problems, what those problems are, and what the solutions to those problems might be.
Or, IMO the problem is that few to no people are asking the modern equivalent of "how do we make sysadmins' lives better?" They're instead chasing a ghost of a concept that peaked a decade ago, because that's easier than looking at an organization's failures from both a sufficiently high and low level to see the cracks that run all the way through them.
- the Oregonian's newsroom is in all but open conflict with its editorial board, its credibility for breaking hard news was already in the shitter before it sold to ADVANCE, and for several years it stopped publishing a broadsheet edition and shuttered its print facility to cut costs
- the Merc sold out to a Seattle-based group run by a former Washington state legislator in July 2024 that's been buying out alt-weeklies in Seattle and Chicago
- Pamplin/Trib and EO groups got bought out by Carpenter, a Mississippi-based conglomerate, in June 2024 with a rep for cutting everything but sports coverage. Layoffs hit both in July 2025
Only the WWeek is still locally owned, and it started a non-profit and seeking donations in 2024. Maybe 20 full-time employees there, at best, and as of 2024 barely above water financially.
I live in Portland, OR. The Oregonian/Oregon Live actually broke the story that the mayor was quietly pushing shelters out. Their news broke before I got the city mandated postcard I should have received living next to the proposed shelter.
KGW broke that the shelter process was occurring without community involvement and feedback processes. Frankly, the Mayor and three district councilors came to our neighborhood meeting. That just doesn't happen in East Portland and was not possible without the involvement of local news.
Willamette Week is a gem, I agree. They broke the Shamaya Fagan story as well as numerous others. I'm saying it's not all bad, especially compared to other localities.
Imago Dei? KGW didn't break anything that the Oregonian hadn't run two weeks prior on Dec. 3, and they got scooped by OPB on it in November. The best coverage KGW (owned and operated by Virginia-based TEGNA, which TIL is in the process of getting Nexstar'd) has had of homelessness was covering their news van getting broken into by a homeless couple and stealing their gear.
Yes that one. They definitely did. I know the people who were interviewed and I know what they said. That neighborhood meeting was because the neighborhood learned that the Mayors office had side stepped the public input process. The mayor admitted it that night. Reporting can be better but my point was that politics does not move East of 205 and for the first time I saw it. The reporter and the photojournalist both lived in Portland. The difference was local media regardless of who they're owned or operated by.
A lot of these comments are indexing on ownership. While I agree ownership plays a factor I think whether the actual journalist is from here plays a more outsized role in how they present and investigate the news.
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