USA should be allowed to use 0 days for their "counter" terrorism operations. This is interesting at the time of USA being complicit in a genocide against a community.
In the paraphrasing of Chomsky, nationstate press conference lingo has subtle connotations. "Spreading democracy" means "whatever America wants", which means "whatever American businesses want." Gen. Smedley Butler probably would second it.
As an aside, I'm concurrently and in parallel concerned about the domestic front: cheap IoT, substitute control system products having backdoors, and supply chain vulnerabilities of otherwise reputable products being implanted in an NSA COTTONMOUTH, FIREWALK, or GODSURGE manner by other nation-states or ransomware actors.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38691198 This post got flagged despite not being offtopic. An encyclopedia being accused of siding with perpetrators of genocide is not a small thing. Remember the coverage of Ukraine war here.
If we go by the number of civilians who got killed and the loss of infrastructure, You can compare the impact of 9/11 and the so called counter operation. Assuming you consider value of civilian life is same for a US citizen and a non US citizen.
These are definitely valid criticisms against Hamas, But how does that even remotely justify Israel? How does armed gang storming your house and killing you is different than bombing? Will it be less painful death?
You want to take the claims about rape and mutilation though there weren't any proofs given till date, but doubt the number of people killed on Gaza despite all the names are published?
If your only solution to beat a "terrorist" organization is to be bigger evil than them talks about the weakness of your government, not a blanket justification to commit genocide.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That Hamas can commit a raid into Israel and then stay in Gaza with impunity because Israel is not allowed to bomb Gaza? That makes no sense. What do you propose Israel do with this "terrorist" (why the double quotes?) organization?
The word genocide is used way to often in this conflict. My dictionary says "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.". There is no genocide.
Used double quotes because neither IDF nor Hamas are declared as terrorist organisation by UN. That doesn't the actions of these organisations though.
If Israel can kill someone in Iran with targeted missile, they are capable of doing the same in Palestine as well. Instead of doing that, they are carpet bombing Palestine, and they are totally aware that only handful of "Hamas" members gets killed in their attack.
They also de-humanise entire Palestinians, not just Hamas stright from Hitlar's playbook and that makes it genocide. It is not a fancy word, it is an unfortunate reality.
Also you are shifting blame of a failed government in Israel to people of Palestine
I would disagree that Israel is dehumanizing all Palestinians. Examples? I have heard the Hamas referred to as sub-human (I don't recall where). Unfortunately they are very human. De-humanizing is not genocide and genocide is not a reality. What it is is propaganda. But yes, Germans and Hitler did dehumanize the jews to support their genocide.
How did we get to Iran? It's easier for Israeli intelligence to operate in Iran than in Gaza. Iranians generally don't hide behind their citizens or in tunnels (that I've seen). I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to or how it is relevant.
No doubt there's huge swaths of destruction in Gaza. That said the media will show you some drone shots going over and over the same building and not show you some nearby areas that have not been hit. Israel is being somewhat selective, it's not carpet bombing. But yeah, large destruction definitely, partly to remove cover for when its forces go in. It's definitely pretty terrible. Wars are. Have you seen Mariupol?
The government of Israel has plenty of blame. But the blame for the horrific attacks on Israel lies squarely on Hamas.
This is an opinion piece and I would say biased. Just to picks some random piece: "For years, Israeli leaders have advocated ethnic cleansing, euphemistically called “transfer” " is totally false. We're talking about some fringe crazies, no Israel leader has ever advocated for this.
The article talks about how schools in Israel view Arabs. Well, you should see how schools in Gaza or the West Bank view Israelis:
I would agree there's likely some stereotyping of Arabs and some "freedom" with the historical narrative. But there's also lots of teaching of principles of free society, equal rights, etc. The evidence is the large number of Israeli who have been trying to work towards some sort of peace, helping Palestinians, fighting against injustice.
"Other Israeli political, military and religious leaders have at different times described Palestinians as “a cancer”, “vermin”, and called for them to be “annihilated”. They are frequently portrayed as backward and a burden on the country." -> references?
If you ask a mother whose child has been killed or kidnapped what that mother thinks about the killers or kidnappers you might get "animals" as an answer. Emotions are definitely running high right now everywhere and you're going to get some of that coming out. As a rule though Israel does not de-humanize all Palestinians, there are many Palestinian Israelis (> 1 million) living side by side with Israelis. That's just a false narrative.
Specifically, the US annually gives $3.8 billion in aid to the Israeli military. In the UN, the US has also utilized their veto power to overrule 34 different resolutions related to Israel/Palestine peace since 1954. This really is the US' creation in so many ways yet so few Americans know anything about the topic.
Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way?
Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating and this is still contested.
Israel has never said it will not attack in the south of the Gaza strip. It just said the bulk of its operation will be in the north. It explicitly said it would go after military targets in the south as well.
Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets.
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)
"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network"
Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source.
Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity?
Look- you're right that Israel has asked people to leave everything behind and move. War sucks. I can't say I don't sympathize with those people, I do. You seem to have some emotional connection to this situation and I certainly do. I don't have any solutions unfortunately. Israelis have been pushed to the corner right now.
> Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war.
Israel is actually the one who forced Egypt to not deliver aid for 2 weeks and is limiting it now to just 15 to 20 trucks a day:
"Israel imposed a total two-week blockade on the Palestinian territory, [...], on October 7." Then starting on October 20th or so "Israel has only agreed to allow the delivery of drinking water, food, medicine and other medical supplies. Israeli security forces are checking the contents of the trucks in a transit zone [in Egypt]."
HRW considers it a war crime and outright says it:
"Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’s population through cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel. This is a war crime, as is willfully blocking humanitarian relief from reaching civilians in need."
How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing.
If Egypt allowed, and the UN drove aid trucks in, Israel would not bomb the UN. So aid isn't getting in because Egypt doesn't let it in.
How much water do you think the Hamas has stockpiled in their tunnels for the scenario where they have to continue fighting from there for months? Just asking. How much gas that could be used for desalination? Food? How about asking them to share a little bit with their citizens?
Also please tell me why can't the foreign nationals on the Gazan side leave Gaza into Egypt? Is Israel also preventing them from leaving?
All that said, the civilian population of Gaza should have access to water and should generally be protected as much as possible under the circumstances. I do not support withholding water from them.
> How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing.
Israeli explicitly ordered a total blockage of Gaza:
> Also please tell me why can't the foreign nationals on the Gazan side leave Gaza into Egypt? Is Israel also preventing them from leaving?
No, that is Egypt I believe. With regards to mass outflows, Egypt is worried that Israel will push the Palestinians in Gaza out and they will never return. That is problematic for Egypt for other reasons, such as Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. For a few foreign nationals, I am not sure the reasoning.
We're not talking mass outflows of Palestinians. We're talking foreign/dual nationals we would just transit through Egypt. Why can't they leave?
The Rafah crossing looked pretty intact in the videos showing the aid convoys going through. We've also seen lots of videos of people waiting on the other side to exit.
Indeed Israel did announce a blockage and/or siege of Gaza. That said they can only blockade areas they control which does not include Egypt. I think they are extremely unlikely to attack aid convoys directly though they may take indirect action against them (such as attacking the roads). Most likely this is done by mutual agreement of the involved parties but this is me speculating.
> We're not talking mass outflows of Palestinians. We're talking foreign/dual nationals we would just transit through Egypt. Why can't they leave?
I honestly don’t know.
With regard to the blockade it only ended once Biden told Netanyahu he had to stop it. We can keep talking about this but all articles say the same thing.
Apparently there is now Israeli checks of all goods on trucks entering via Egypt. It may be a new development but they are now there on the Egyptian side of the border.
There is no surprise in not taking journalists as source from a side who murder journalists. But let's keep that aside
- Why does Palestines are restricted from using their own water?
- Why does Israely military rules apply on Palestine?
- How does Palestinian citizens are responsible for the failure of Israely government of precise and targeted attack?
- Why does Israely government including the prime minister dehumanising the Palestinian citizens reminding of exact strategy of Hitlar?
- Why does Israely government not interested in getting their citizens back and take that opportunity for a war ?
Being pushed to the corner and that is a licence to do that horrible things is a dangerous argument, similar argument is used by Hamas. Similar argument was raised by Hitler and he convinced significant part of German population that Jews are evil, and they need to be eliminated for the safety of Germany.
- It is true that some Palestinians in the west bank are treated very badly including taking over their water wells. There's a long story or a short story there. We have a right wing government in Israel that supports right wing settlers in the west bank and is trying to kill any hope of peace with Palestinians.
- Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan in 1967. The status of that land was never settled and therefore it is still considered (by Israel and the world) to be an occupied territory and is under military rule. So that's why this area is under military rule. This is international law btw. In the various peace agreements nobody wants this piece of and back. Israel did not annex it. And there's been no agreement with anyone (e.g. Palestinians) about it.
- I think we're talking Gaza again. Are you asking why are Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Israel's failure to protect its citizens from them? I'm not sure how to address this seriously.
- This isn't an excuse but everyone in Israel is in shock/PTSD at the moment. It's a small place and everyone is personally impacted. Calling Hamas sub-human isn't right. They're very human in the worst possible way. Somehow I don't think the analogy between the Jewish people in Europe and Hamas really holds though. I don't recall the Jewish people going around with RPGs and assault rifles and butchering Europeans.
- Hamas is never going to return those hostages and the price would be unacceptable. Israel also has to be concerned about the next round of attacks and hostages. Some of Hamas's leadership today are people that were exchanged for a single Israeli hostage, Gilad Shalit, who was exchanged for 1000 Palestinians, many of which were in jail for killing Israelis. There is no scenario here unfortunately where Israel can get security and the return of the hostages. If there was there wouldn't be a war right now.
And yeah, these recent events aren't exactly a win for humanity.
Regarding PTSD, don't you think Palestinians are in much worse position? Even if you killed every single Hamas member, relatives of those who are murdered during this genocide will attempt revenge in future right?
Or is starving everyone to death so that there won't be any vengeance is the strategy?
When two neighbours, who genuinely believe that their neighbour will kill them if they get a chance, peace is hard and time consuming task, especially when they have wounds that will take decades to heal.
The least human thing to do there is to stop causing more wounds, as UN secretary general said, Oct 7 wasn't happened from the vaccuum.
When parties are in principle willing peace is hard enough but when hardliners on both sides use each and every opportunity to deepen the conflict peace is as good as impossible.
It's gonna take decades. The cynical take here is that Israel knows it'll be hated (I mean isn't it anyways) and it's going to take away the means of those people to execute on that hate.
What the UN secretary general said isn't helping because it's excusing the Oct 7 attack which is inexcusable. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Israel's blockage of Gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum either. Should we trace back the conflict all the way to prehistoric times?
I don't think Israel is going to starve all Gazans to death. It's also not going to kill every single Hamas member. But yes, it will leave another layer of residue on top of this endless conflict.
If Israel stopped now the Hamas would celebrate it's victory, hold on to the hostages forever, or kill them and hold on to their bodies, and Hezbollah would be emboldened to do a repeat performance of this from the North (what exactly is the reason for Lebanese Shea or for Iran to fight Israel btw? Did Israel also steal their lands?). At least that's what this looks like to an Israeli.
I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?
> I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?
By focusing on that which can be influenced which is usually limited to your own side. Go back to the Oslo accords, enable a UN peacekeeping mission (with teeth) and abandon any territory settled. That should be a good start. Not that I even dream of the hardliners on either side thinking that is acceptable.
Didn't we just try this in Gaza? Abandoned the territory settled? Imagine if Hamas controlled both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel would be destroyed.
UN peacekeeping is bullshit. What country is going to trust the UN to guarantee it's security. There is UN peacekeeping in Lebanon where attacks against Israel are and were coming from, they do zilch. The history of UN peacekeepers in the region is that at any hint of violence they move away.
On the Israeli side nobody will trust the Palestinians over anything. There's also a minority that believes the entire land belongs to Israel and screw the Palestinians. On the Palestinian side (IMO) there's a majority that is unwilling to take any settlement other than all the Jews should leave the middle east. There's fractures and nobody that represents all of them that can agree and/or enforce any agreement. So here we are.
Not really. The territory abandoned was systematically kept down to the point where any kind of improvement was destroyed again. And much more is being destroyed right now. What do you think all these bombings will do short of just creating the next 20 years of personnel supply for Hamas?
> Abandoned the territory settled?
No, it wasn't just abandoned. The houses that were there were gone and the houses that were built were demolished. So the land was barren. That's not giving the other party a chance, that's the kind of scorched earth tactics that make things worse.
> Imagine if Hamas controlled both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel would be destroyed.
Yes, Hamas is a problem, we are in agreement on that. But so is the Israeli government, the problem is to get them both to back down from their violence-begets-more-violence cycle. And it looks like things are going to get a lot worse rather than better. So you can expect many more Israeli lives to be lost as well as many more Palestinian lives.
> UN peacekeeping is bullshit. What country is going to trust the UN to guarantee it's security. There is UN peacekeeping in Lebanon where attacks against Israel are and were coming from, they do zilch. The history of UN peacekeepers in the region is that at any hint of violence they move away.
I have had family members in Unifil deployments and that's not what I hear. Both sides criticize the UN peacekeepers as being on the side of their enemy, that's usually a good sign.
> On the Israeli side nobody will trust the Palestinians over anything.
Makes you wonder why there isn't a solution possible. But: with the dubious ways in which Hamas was financed there may be enough blame to go around for everybody.
> There's also a minority that believes the entire land belongs to Israel and screw the Palestinians.
Unfortunately that minority has a disproportionate effect on Israeli politics. It should be obvious that this is one of the root causes of this ongoing conflict.
> On the Palestinian side (IMO) there's a majority that is unwilling to take any settlement other than all the Jews should leave the middle east. There's fractures and nobody that represents all of them that can agree and/or enforce any agreement. So here we are.
I'm missing the proxy war that the Arab world has been fighting against Israel using the Palestinians in just as much a cynical way as the right wing in Israel has been using them to keep the conflict alive as much as possible.
> Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way?
I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. The IDF isn't there yet, so they don't know numbers killed. The Palestinians do, however Israel and the US don't believe their numbers.
What is the Palestinian breakdown then? Given most of the population is now in the south if Israel was bombing indiscriminately and not doing what it said it would do (i.e. the south is relatively safer) we should see vastly larger number of casualties in the south. Is that the case?
They were blocked by Hamas roadblocks and prevented from moving. Israel tracks mobile signals to follow population movement and tries to minimize civilian casualties. Even with the inflated death toll from the Hamas this care is evident.
USA should be allowed to use 0 days for their "counter" terrorism operations. This is interesting at the time of USA being complicit in a genocide against a community.