Can you please stop generalizing mediocre Indian students gaming the system? What evidence do you have to prove your fact? Let me tell you my story just to get some facts straight:
I did my undergrad in Mechanical Engineering from a small city in India. By 3rd year of Engineering, I realized I wasn't cut out to be a good Mechanical Engineer, as I wasn't enjoying CAD/CAM as much as I enjoyed writing C code. I decided it is in my best interests that I turn to programming as a profession, so I worked hard to get selected in campus placements to TCS (Yes, the same shit job which you said is beneath you). I took the job because none of the top tier companies would even look at my resume and this is best shot to work my way up. I spent close to 3 years of my time at TCS learning the basics of Programming, Web Development. Later based on my experience at TCS, I applied to top schools in US and got admitted into a top tier CS school. I took a massive education loan of 50k$ to pursue my MS in CS. Upon completion, after 13 attempts, I landed in a good start up and have ever since been working up the chain building products. I don't think I am an 10X Engineer, but I am regarded as one of the better Engineers in my company. It took a lot of motivation and courage to take such massive loans and pursue my higher education. I know of several people who have done something very similar to what I have done. So, please don't make these biased statements that just disparage the efforts of 1000's of students who come to US in hopes of a better tomorrow.
Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit about the beauty of algorithms or programming. Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. I want to, but I could not: because I couldn't afford to pay for a Masters degree in USA back then nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed.
There are two ways to game the H1B, the NYT article covered only one of them. The other is the 20,000 visas given to those who finished a Masters/PhD degree in USA. If they break out the numbers for these, they will find something that is an open secret known to all Indians: this 20K too is totally dominated by Indians.
Among my family and friends back in India, how to game the H1B's other 20K visas is also an open secret. These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. They get the admission, pay the fees, pass the course. Then they take internships to stay on after the degree, keep applying and taking interviews relentlessly until something works out. I believe they can stay on in the US for a few years by extending their visa in this way, until they get a H1B.
One thing that helps these 'mediocre-to-hopeless' students get by -- are the so called consulting companies that get them short-time contracting positions in major companies like Intel/Amazon/Intuit/../.. etc.
They fake their profiles with a many years of fake experience, fake internships and try to fake the background checks as well. These consulting companies take care of all the visa processing etc for these guys.
The major companies benefit from not having to take care of all the hiring processes, visa processes, employee benefits, holidays/vacations for the contractors. They also consider these employees expendable. When something unfortunate happens and these guys end up getting pink slips, the consultancies get them another job at another employer willing to take them.
You make an interesting point. A master's in the United States, correct me if I am wrong, costs around $50,000. That sum is large for American students, but that sum seems unimaginable for middle class foreigners.
Are we getting the 'best and the brightest' with the H1-B (which we all agree is a good thing), or the richest and wealthiest willing to pay whatever it takes to get a visa?
Any system that can be gamed, will be gamed once demand is more than supply.
Maybe 10 years ago, the best and the brightest of Indians/Chinese, who studied at the top US schools would have got their H1B in this 20K advanced-degree quota. Not true today.
Though the average Indian/Chinese is poor, there are tens of millions of parents in India/China today who can afford the $50K "investment" for their non-so-bright child. I see this among my affluent relatives and friends in India.
There is an easy way to check this: plotting the applicants of this 20K advanced-degree quota against the US News/other university rankings of their university.
An easy but not perfect way to fix this would be to give the 20K slots to the applicants from the highest ranking universities.
Its not that. Most people who come from middle class families to the US for education go through a lot of struggle. Stuff like 3-4 people sharing a single room, waiting tables at restaurants for money, skipping meals to save etc etc. The list is endless. A few things they do will amaze you.
And then after that they have to go through a period of intense slogging to clear their student loans they would have taken in India. Then comes the H1B struggle to stay in the US to make a living, then the struggle for green card and so on.
By any means of measure these are exceptionally hard working and bright people. And don't go by what the throwaway29 is saying. These are not idiots who landed by luck and are dragging by. And its not as simple as throwaway29 is making it look like, where a few idiots are stealing away the opportunity from Einstein level geniuses.
Yes, but the original poster indicated that a masters from an American institution is typically required for STEM workers from developing countries. Only the wealthiest, not necessarily the best, can afford those masters degrees.
Define lower middle class -- the median household income in India and China is $3000 and $6000 respectively. What is the average net worth of the households who send students to America?
If you have a PhD, you may be able to apply for the O1 visa. I came back to the US using the O1 and have many friends who have PhDs from top EU univs who have made the move to the US via the O1 visa. Try it out.
Applying for an O1 as a researcher is an onerous process with a poor success rate. Some companies that require PhDs with highly specialized skills are resorting to this to bypass the H1B quota, with mixed success (based on 3 anecdotes).
Also, it doesn't help that the O1 visa mentions Nobel Prize and Oscars in its description. Only a handful of non-Americans in the world would qualify in any given year going by these qualifications.
Well, if you believe you are qualified and have graduated from a top non-US univ with a PhD and have done research, O1 isn't as hard as it sounds. I'm from India and spent a few years in Europe at a lab post-PhD and came back on an O1. Many of my colleagues form the EU lab have made their way to Silicon Valley via O1. It is difficult, but you don't need a Nobel/Fields/Turing to get that visa.
Well, pretty much most people I know have had successes with O1 -- myself included. I work at a SV startup and while the process is onerous, if one is qualified, O1 is quicker to get and has fewer constraints attached to it. OP of this post was bemoaning that while he/she, a PhD couldn't get in the country, others less qualified than him/her could get in via H1B gaming. I merely suggested an alternative. If the OP indeed thinks he/she is more qualified, than the OP could apply via the O1 route.
There are more countries in the world than the USA and India. Good programmers find it much easier to immigrate to Mexico or Canada and have a very good life there.
Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by a big margin.
Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get things done with maximum levels of productivity.
>>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B.
You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it.
>>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys).
The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way. People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they do to get there.
>>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed.
You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems.
>>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters.
You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are below you are able to make a living, while you aren't.
>>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter.
True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or grades, its more than that.
I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than shit.
I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are.
That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.
There is a fundamental fallacy here, that is all too common. You think that busting your butt is something that you only do during your education. It is not. "started from the bottom now we're here" is as common a credo on the corporate ladder as it is in the education system. There are numerous CEOs and founders who were academic duds who slogged hard and used guile and intelligence to get to the top. I am not saying you won't be that way at work, but just at a certain stage we all hold the belief that education is the only indicator of success and hard work.
Its even more common among Indians, where people tend to equate good education/university/grades as life long right/entitlement to a good life, even if they are actually bad at work. There is also an immense social pride/pressure associated with foreign visits, citizenship in the US etc- Which causes these kinds of issues.
Also one needs to step out of their fantasy chambers and look at the brutal financial reality of life, which they sooner or later have to face. And work their lives from there. Else soon, the very same intelligent people will complain how a butcher down the street who doesn't know any math beyond basic arithmetic got more richer than a Algorithm expert on TopCoder. And cry that life is 'unfair'.
I get it. So now repeat the same intensity of effort you applied in your education, in you your work. The results will follow. And please don't ever think you are some precious snowflake because of your university or grades. Things don't work that way in the real world and people learn it the hard way as they age.
>>Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.
I judge love towards one's work by commitment and what they are ready to do to get there and not by their ability to memorize trivia. On any given day I will hire a TCS/Infosys services guy with 3 years of experience than a M.S or even a Phd, with no experience- Very simply because, that guy would have lived and breathed struggles under tough budgets and demanding timelines. People with such a background can generally learn and do anything. When compared to graduates who expect special things to happen to them because of their marksheet and university.
Either way, India or US. I can assure you- you are going to see ordinary hard working people will get far ahead of most engineers because of a strong work ethic. This should not surprise you even in time to come. The same applies to US too, don't expect basic things like these to change by changing countries.
You may go to the US get a job. But you might find a Indian cab driver after a few years far ahead of you financially.
I think you are being a little unfair to throwaway29. He specifically talks about the beauty and the joy of CS, which I think is an excellent attitude.
And throwaway29, you seem to argue that it is unfair to you that you could top your university but not get a H-1B. Here's my personal take on it. It is going to be a little harsh.
- First things first, Yeah, it is unfair to you. No question about it. A person of modest means has less chances to go ahead in life. Let not the hopefuls with rose colored glasses tell you life is going to be fair. That if you work hard, magic happens..There is just as much truth to it as flipping a coin. Look around. There are a lot of people who were born with a silver spoon, inherited property that is "now" worth a lot of money. And there are people who cannot seem to lift themselves out of their harsh life. There isn't a rule book to follow that guarantees anything.
- The sharp sting of pain you may feel right now is because of your social conditioning; that you were led to believe that it
ain't so, that hard work works! It may or may not. No body knows, nor anybody is responsible nor will anybody will hold themselves accountable because they said so.
- Now that we have established that, I want you to really think why you want to go the US. Make money, learn or have a comfortable life? As Kamaal said, you are less likely to become rich as an engineer. If you wanted comfortable life, define for yourself what comfort is. There are downsides to being in the US. I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news
for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that.
- Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here. There you don't have feel envious about your H-1B brethren. They are totally missing out on it. They are like cattle in a castle, who know no different, nor feel any difference. They are going to pee and poop on the throne without realizing it, just like cattle. There are blindingly smart people here. If you don't get to work with some of them I feel you missed out the best thing that you can get by living here.
TL;DR - There are negatives and positives about living in the US. Think carefully if you really want to be here. And don't expend energy feeling bad about yourself. Life is finite, harsh and unfair.
I think you really got to the heart of what I felt! I don't care about the money or any of those things. Anyone who has already spent 8 years on a MS and a PhD probably knows that!
What I see is that even in today's MOOC/highly-connected world, I'm missing out on interacting/working with the brightest minds in the world, who all seem to be currently concentrated in the US. I can only go so far by watching their talks online, reading their research papers or studying their code. I wish to live/work in that environment for at least a few years.
Not everyone can get everything they want, I get that. But then, I see folks who are neither the best nor the brightest nor the most hard working getting to the US by gaming the system and that hurts.
PS: This is from the point-of-view of a foreigner from a less privileged background. There is a whole other gamut of concerns of US citizens about their own jobs, assimilation, social concerns and all that and I am aware of that.
>> I see folks who are neither the best nor the brightest nor the most hard working getting to the US by gaming the system and that hurts.
All I can say is be patient. If it makes you feel any better,
Einstein wasn't able to get a job out of school. MF* Einstein.. You know what he did? He felt bad for himself! Chew on that.
Source: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Holes-Time-Warps-Commonwealth/dp... (See pages 59-61 in book preview)
The system has been gamed long before I came here in 02. And I don't think people in upper levels of Government are oblivious to it. It works for them now, so they are not going to look too closely there.
I have seen Americans from MIT driving a dinky car, while my friend who could not add two numbers own a 5 series(10 years ago, mind you). As I said, it isn't fair. As they say, keep your calm, focus and carry on.
If you want to be intellectual there is a good chance you will be lonely here , too - though it depends. Indians are notorious for resting on their laurels - in this case, merely landing in USA qualifies as one. I am willing to bet your fires will be much tamer once you make it to these shores - but I wish you good luck , because at least you have that fire. When I meet Indians here (and I am one too) its seriously underwhelming - what they consider cool/revolutionary/intellectual. In a sense, the gamers of the system escaped overseas, and for the good of India, the best is left behind (sounds crazy for some reason).
The fact that intellectual activity seems to be relatively lacking in India is sad to read, and confirms my subjective opinion.
I can understand your sense of intellectual loneliness. Indians worship Saraswati (the goddess of learning), but will do anything not to learn and be intellectually curious. Behold the Hindu nation. The current wave of 'culture' sweeping through India will definitely not improve any of this.
Most Indians are like that, I've seen that here in Europe too. I attend tech meetups and paper study groups regularly and only friend with people I admire. Race doesn't matter to me. And yes, usually they are not Indian anyway.
The whole idea of getting rich in the US is true if and only if, you think of earning in the US and going back to India. From the perspective of starting a life altogether from a scratch in the US, its a uphill, may be a 'unfair' battle to even start with. Because you will spend more than two decades just to 'settle down' with a house and family, this if you start at an average age of 25-30. You will be 50 to just settle in. In India, your peers would be contemplating retirement(or would have retired) post wrapping the remaining responsibilities by that time. And you would just be starting in the US. And this is just the beginning, after all this, life isn't rosy after all. You still have to worry about health care expenses, your kids will likely not get good college education and end up working $30-$40K a month. Or worse graduate out with a college debt which will take a good part of their remaining lives to pay. Your own retirement will be expensive, you will staring at health care expenses of old age, you will have mortgage to pay and without any social circle, network or family like in India. You will be more lonely, more in need of money, more isolated than ever. And don't expect your kids to reciprocate all those good old Indian values to you then.
But that is the choice everyone has to make. If you are ready to put in that kind of struggle in the US. Any similar amount of struggle in India will put you a lot farther than you would ever reach in the US.
This is my humble evaluation of Indian life in US. Scary, but true for almost every one I met there.
>>I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that.
Haven't suffered for 13 years like you do. But have worked for short periods of time in the US. I can attest to this. And I understand what you are going through.
>>Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here.
Seriously? If you have to come to a new country to learn or else you can't then coming to US will barely help you. You should learn and do new things where ever you are.
>> Because you will spend more than two decades just to 'settle down' with a house and family, this if you start at an average age of 25-30. You will be 50 to just settle in
True if living in bay area or NY. Housing is not very expensive elsewhere. Hell, it is cheaper
(for what you get) than most cities in India.
>> Haven't suffered for 13 years like you do. But have worked for short periods of time in the US. I can attest to this. And I understand what you are going through.
Hey, it's not all bad. It is one side of a coin. On the positive side I have a large bookshelf, reading stuff in all that time!
>> Seriously? If you have to come to a new country to learn or else you can't then coming to US will barely help you. You should learn and do new things where ever you are.
Um. I learn most things by myself - from books. I think there is a lot of value in working with really smart people. It has expanded my perspective.
You totally missed the point that OP was trying to make.
Doing MS in USA is a money game (and not merit game at least at second and third tier colleges), most of the students who land up at these place are not from poor or lower middle class families. They come from families with enough means for them to buy tickets to USA, have enough funds to stay on their own at least for initial 6 months (which would be equivalent to life savings of many lower middle class families), demonstrate a big bank balance, show enough property etc. in their family name so that their student visa is not rejected at consulate… I could go on as to how one has to prove to consulate that a student is self sufficient, would not be depending on another source of funds (scholarships, loans etc.), has enough monetary and family reasons to come back after education to stand even a remote chance of getting a student visa.
OP did not have all of above, other less than mediocre students had those, and hence they scored.
>> worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college.
Any body can have sex; doesn't mean everybody is getting it;)
But the general point stands; given the large population, there will be enough motivated people who will flatten it out eventually. I don't know if it is possible right this moment, or by everybody.
Well, the fact is social structures are getting flattened due to easy access to education/information. I guess the process will just continue. Smart phones are getting ridiculously cheap and internet will be affordable a large portion of Indian public.
