Also, how many "enterprise" development teams can commit to creating and supporting one and only one (1) app over a multi-year period? How many can depend on thousands and millions of users to discover bugs, do load testing, penetration testing, usability, etc etc?

How many "massages" has Flickr had in the last 5 years? Is that uptime acceptable to a bank?

How many shoe retailers and state governments even know how to recruit and retain the type of talent that produces great software? How many could admit they don't?

IMHO, this is the truth nugget. Where the rock stars go is where you will find great software and the company culture that works is "stand back and let the rock stars do their thing". That culture can't exist in the enterprise. It doesn't even exist in most startups. I never wanted to believe this but after years of first hand experience, I find the conclusion inescapable.

Agile methodologies can't extract excellence from mediocrity, but they might allow half-decent software to be made without the use of rock stars, by plugging the holes that mediocre developers typically fall into. But is half-decent software even worth making?

XBox is an interesting counter-example. Microsoft completely let that team do their thing. They had total freedom to design and market it. Notice they didn't even have to call it Microsoft Gaming Console.

Source: Chris Capossela's talk at the Business of Software 2009 conference.

That attitude probably had a lot to do with Microsoft's success.

   Is that uptime [Flickr's] acceptable to a bank?

I guess you could say PayPal tries to do this, but you have to get money in and out of PayPal, and they have high fees.

I know they're not playing with a lot of resources, so I'm always amazed at how much better they are at doing EVERYTHING than Chase, etc.

This is also why building (as in skyscraper style) blow outs don't appear as huge - they labour cost is generally a relatively smaller portion of the project cost then the materials compared to IT projects.

I've worked at big and medium size companies in the past decade. I worked at a startup that was acquired by a big company. I've implemented enterprise systems from design through support for governments and dow30 companies.

Those of you that think that these systems are symptom of the corporate culture are wrong. I'm not defending the poor corporate cultures that I saw. I am defending the argument that better technologies and processes could lead to better systems.

From a process standpoint the problem is it's counter intuitive to most management that smaller, higher paid teams using obscure* technology could out produce the highly polished cogs-in-the-machine process. For example, this usually isn't true for (most) mechanical engineering projects. We all know it as fact on HN but it doesn't apply to many enterprise industries. I remember times where as a team we were denied the ability to create scripts or tools to do work for us. Or we were denied the use of open source tools. Instead we spent days doing it manually. Then, when it needed to be done for the next project, we would again do it manually. We couldn't push a small but critical change without completing a multi-day code move process. When we did write scripts, IT had to approve them which meant you were at their mercy. There were many more of these sorts of poor process decisions. And there were smart capable programmers working there, often pushing to make the right decision.

When I run into old co-workers many still believe it's impossible to implement enterprise code in something like ruby, python, lisp, haskell, etc. It's Java or C#. Common reasoning - What happens if I need a new Clojure or Lisp programmer!? Or, where will ruby be in 20 years? We know today where Microsoft support will be in the future. Look at Microsoft's support plans. Etc.

I'll add a little bit of my own opinion in here too. It is my hope that eventually there will be a few elegant generic enterprise solutions where DSLs are implemented for business analysts. It's insane how much of this work is still done by programmers. How many more times does a programmer have to code a { main-menu customer organization admin ... } window or custom approval process, etc. (Yes, I know this has been attempted often without success, it's still a good idea. And I think in the end it'll happen. It just takes time to figure out what will work)

* obscure to management.

EDIT: Grammar

When people say 'corporate culture is the problem', that's what they're talking about. Of course better technology and processes can help. But if corporate culture actively prohibits anything new/unknown/non-standard, what is the true problem? That the tools aren't being used, or that the tools can't be used?

You're not actually disagreeing with anyone who points to corporate culture as the culprit. You're just not at the root cause yet.

Yes, yes, I know many many legacy systems are out there that are decades old. And every single one of them represents major lost opportunity.

Release early, release often isn't just for startups.

That's a reasonable argument when read as "What happens to our Erlang+Ruby crystal palace when management takes over and talented devs won't touch us with a ten foot pole and we are forced to hire Java monkeys who think lambda is something you barbecue on a skewer?"

One enterprise that I spent some time at has some systems that are very old and have been continuously running. Some are on the order of 40 years old. It wasn't until the 90's that they finally decreed that new assembler code was not allowed. And lots of COBOL.

So as functionality has been added to these systems, the word "Legacy" doesn't quite give the feel of the sheer size of them.

I would agree that management resists smaller more talented teams, and add that the obscure tag is supplied by gartner, which is about as risk adverse as one can imagine.

And as you point out, there is the whole change control issue. I remember two hour meetings weekly for a small division in which changes had to be fought for and coordinated.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but let's say that Sun or other vendor does exactly the right thing and offers the right kind of solvent for the enterprise monolith. The systems that exist are so interwoven into the fabric of the business that not only do the IT portions of the problem change, but also the structure of the business itself. Not clear that Sun or IBM or MS can add much here.

A useful thought experiment here is to consider the spreadsheet and how, as a significant piece of new technology and forward looking tool, did change the way that business is done. Did it reach down to the core of the business to alter the monolith?

What I meant was it's possible to implement such a system in the framework of a dow30 type culture. The few times that I've seen it implemented, management supported it. But without someone just taking the initiative and doing it, it doesn't happen. The average newly graduated junior enterprise developer with an average lead enterprise developer probably can't pull it off. So it could be enterprise just has to catch up and they are just not there yet. Maybe that makes it a cultural problem, I'm not sure.

No doubt, management has yet to see the light. They want data to show that change in their process and new technology works before they commit. There should be a place for it when management finally realizes it's not a fad but a trend.

I'm just curious, because I would have thought that this would work about equally well on software and mechanical engineering projects.

Yeah I think they work differently in general. From my experience they do not benefit from iterative development the same way we do. They do but they iterate when solving the problem, usually on paper. If they make a design mistake and it's in production or prototype phase it's much more costly to address. And because of this development cycles are longer and a lot more time is spent upfront.

I've watched and assisted mechanical engineers that spent days working out the math on the reliability of a class of lasers (and belts, motors, fans) subjected to sitting in a warehouse, followed by periodic motion and change in atmospheric conditions then launched (missile launch or space launch).

After the analysis was complete I could code up the math in a matter of minutes. Then expose it to all sorts of boundary cases and add it into a mathematical model of the entire system. Sometimes, at this point, it would go back to analysis to address some new found issues.

I have great respect for such engineers. Solving real life problems, like this, thoroughly is worlds away from what most programmers enjoy - creating.

EDITED: Clarifications ~

This is partly true in my experience and you will struggle to find a Mechanical Engineer that doesn't know what Kaizen is. With engineering iterating is expensive so iteration normally would happen at design stage. However, when it comes to Construction there are different levels of iteration, for example the Consultant will produce a set of specs and drawings but is up to the specialists to produce the detail studies and shop drawings.They will also spent months with mock-ups in order to confirm compliance with requirements.

However, I think every Engineering discipline (and I include Software Engineering here) can learn a lesson or two from Sanitary Engineers:) Systems produced by Drainage Engineers virtually outlive the buildings they are installed, large part of such systems are standardized (use your standard libraries). They run for almost ever and anywhere (ie, quality assurance brings reliability), they require almost no maintenenace (minimize bugs). They have very well defined objectives (no feature creep). If they don't perform well they stink so someone notices and does something about it! They employ 'set of primitives or principles' like gravity that always works, they are simple and construction can be delegated to cheaper labour (outsourcing). It is not a very glamorous field but civilization progressed when this field progressed (social responsibility). They are not expensive to design and produce. They use standard details (ie DRY principle) and I have seen .. a lot of these Sanitary Engineers debating if their discipline is ... art, engineering or science. Rings a bell?

Mechanical Engineering like IT - should be IE Information Engineering:) - has is own disasters and Management problems.

It is a very creative field and the only unfortunate thing is that it does not benefit from - open source. In this respect anyone in Software Engineering, should count themselves lucky!

Qualifier I hold a PhD in Mechanical Engineering

This I agree with. Most engineers would kill to have the kind of feedback cycle that we have. (Disclaimer: my experience, such as it is, is with electrical rather than mechanical engineering.)

Solving real life problems, like this, thoroughly is worlds away from what most programmers enjoy - creating.

This I disagree with. Of course (mechanical) engineers enjoy creating - for example, read Florman's Existential Pleasures of Engineering.

Yup, I've seen it too, from my experience. I was once writing some desktop engineering apps, to help mechanical engineers / designers do analysis on materials etc. They spend enormous amount of time doing iterations/studies on paper. It is worth it, because it usually saves lots of money and time down the road. They don't have the luxury that software developers have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galls_law

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000007.html

Many organizations still attempt to 'build' their own highly customized CRM system using SFDC as a starting point. It doesn't matter if they buy a system off the shelf, the IT organizations for big companies will manage to make these projects just as unsuccessful as their built from scratch counterparts.

The success of these implementations, and in turn the companies that sell the systems like SFDC, are dependent on how willing their own customers are to change their internal processes to match what the system does well. The biggest project failures for these systems occur when these organizations refuse to change how they do business and instead spend millions of dollars in customization fees to the vendor. SFDC isn't immune to the failures that the author describes, they just experience it from a different perspective.

- Process-centric culture. Most enterprises have processes for making processes. Process always complicates everything. And most people inside will blindly protect the process, so it's really difficult to question it.

- Artificially complicated solutions from "big vendors" (read Oracle, IBM etc). They keep adding new "features" over an over only to have something to sell constantly. I have never seen an enterprise software being simplified. A lot of people inside enterprise will again protect these since their jobs may become redundant if simpler solutions are introduced.

Enterprise software is not written for end-users. It's written for companies. It's not marketed to the people who will actually use it and it's not paid for by the people who are going to use it.

So it should come as no surprise that the incentives and motives that shape enterprise software are completely orthogonal to the incentives for creating good software.

Various of the customers I've worked with over the years have calculated their direct losses at thousands or more dollars per minute of outage.

This is a whole different world view from a web outage or a PC reboot; of how to upgrade an application or a server environment without restarting it. Up-times here can be measured in decades.

Your development processes and your management accordingly become conservative. Sometimes hidebound. This is a whole different world from what most folks are accustomed to working in, too. This in terms of scale and cost and speeds and feeds involved; thirty million lines of even the best source code around is not the most agile of platforms ever constructed, but it can be critical to the operations and profits of a business.

There are numbers of (quiet) successes here and there have been many successful COTS migrations; I've worked on a number of these migrations and application replacements over the years, and these projects just don't get the press attention of the screw-ups. And yes, I'm aware of both successes and screw-ups. And of one box that was up and running for seventeen years.

i.e. the hard thing to do is to find a way to slice off 5 or 10% of the problem space so you can have a fast-iterating pilot system which can be a little flakey.

As it beds down into maturity after it's period of rapid development (and higher-than-acceptable downtime), the new system can then be rolled out to the wider audience.

So the trick is to designate an "early adopter" section of your enterprise (maybe one branch office), give them a free reign and then scale their good solutions enterprise-wide.

The folks working on these boxes are Not Dumb.

When you're dealing with financial transactions or stock trading or with medical records, you're either able to deal with the fire hose of data, or with the uptime requirements, or the scale of the data. Or not.

These servers and clusters are very different than what most folks are accustomed to dealing with; vastly larger servers, application environments, communications, storage. And unfortunately for upgrades and migrations and incremental work, usually also involving (often fragile and ill-documented and poorly understood) interconnections all over the place. And critical.

But you might find that there is one stock market with a smaller trade volume than the others. Or one of the 50 hospitals in your district is smaller.

If you can peel off a bunch of "early adopters" and make them guinea pigs, you can get some of the benefits of rapid development. You either need the buy in of the early adopters or be able to push them around.

This happens all the time. The UK used to test their laws on the Scots before rolling them out to the rest of the country.

No-one's saying they're dumb. They're saying they're Doing It Wrong. And the things you're talking about - banks and stock - are edge cases of the enterprise world. I would actually argue that most stock markets are actually very well implemented. Banks usually have competent IT too, since IT is a core competency of theirs.

These are edge cases though; most corporate IT is orders of magnitude less sexy than real time trading systems.

Then there are businesses, like ITA which is used to sell seats on airplanes, where there could be an effect of cascading downtime could cost money all along the line.

Much more likely is the project failure cost. Dozens or hundreds of programmers working on a large project that gets cancelled. This is the real nub of enterprise software risk.

The Fail Whale is fine for twitter - less so when there's real $$ involved.

I like and totally agree with most of the article but this myth annoys me. Exactly none of the the huge complex web apps he namedrops could have been made in under a week. And even if they were, that time omits what must have been an extended period of contemplation and conceptual design by a definite "rock star" level programmer.

Anyway I do agree with him generally, just that I see this stuff a lot. Good web developers are stunningly productive compared to your average .NET corporate seat-warmer but they're not magic!