It's a tribal chant, which is a bit different to having pride.

Obviously the SpaceX staff can do whatever they want when they're celebrating a successful launch and landing. But all non-Americans who are watching and also feeling a lot of pride in what the company has achieved instantly feel alienated when the chant gets going because it's exclusionary. Whether the staff care about this alienation is another matter, but it's real. If you browse the /r/spacex subreddit you constantly see comments about the chant whenever it happens. And that is a community made up of almost total SpaceX supporters.

To give maybe a shallow analogy, it's like a group of men achieved something and then celebrated by chanting “Men, Men, Men!”.

> But all non-Americans who are watching and also feeling a lot of pride in what the company has achieved instantly feel alienated when the chant gets going because it's exclusionary.

Yes, it is, and yes, as an non-American I feel alienated. But I suck it up. Because I'm just a supporter. A fanboy, for a lack of better world. In reality, this is not my success, but the success of men and women working there, almost exclusively American. They have the right to chant however they like and I don't see the reason to make a big deal out of a bit of national pride. Not compared to what they're doing.

Also Musk, who's the driver of the culture there, doesn't seem very nationalistic, so I'm not worried they'll try to turn this into USA space hegemony.

I didn't really look it up but it would be hard to believe SpaceX being a strictly American company with 100% American workforce. Hell, even if it were, it would still be troublesome if the company didn't position itself as an American nationalistic company - think about all the stakeholders. Maybe some supporters wouldn't be so passionate and some suppliers wouldn't be so perfectionist if they felt they were there for the success of a group that they are not a member of (Humanity vs citizens of USA). From that perspective, it would be even weird for NASA employees to do this, let alone a private company's.

SpaceX's rockets are basically intercontinental ballistic missiles being used for benign purposes. So there are legal regulations that make it difficult for them to hire foreigners. So...

> I didn't really look it up but it would be hard to believe SpaceX being a strictly American company with 100% American workforce.

They're pretty close to that, actually.

Disclaimer: I used to work there

I didn't say strictly American, I said they're employing "almost exclusively" Americans. Which logically follows from rocket technology being regulated under ITAR.

I don't see how chanting for a group, without any implicit or explicit diminishment of other groups compares to hate speech against sexual minorities. Also, chants are not a company policy, it's what employees spontaneously do in their own private space, which you saw on their own private broadcast.

(If we're bringing SJW approach into this, then I think you're advocating the minority (SpaceX employees) should adapt to the random cultural expectations of the entitled majority, or whatever.)

If you're saying they should be more considerate, that's fine, but they're free to disregard that opinion.

Personally, I refuse to get outraged - outrage is more often than not a problem with the person who choses to indulge it.

I too find it hard to see how so many have conflated chanting for a group, in this case the USA, as being equivalent to actively admonishing another group. The employees at SpaceX aren't burning the flags of foreign countries or otherwise disrespecting or mocking them, they are simply expressing pride in the nation that many of us view as playing an instrumental part in our success.

I also don't know what could be done to remedy the situation, assuming its decided that a remedy is in order. I can assure everyone that to my knowledge the chants aren't at all staged, they happen organically and large numbers of employees participate in them.

Again, and I hate to be overly repetitive but I think its worth noting that while I don't partake in the chants myself, if we got word from higher up that this was no longer acceptable behavior I would be extraordinarily pissed. I don't care about the chants either way but the employees here are already sacrificing a lot for this mission, they don't need their spontaneous celebrations micromanaged.

The atmosphere during launches here is electric, and even I, someone who is usually extremely reserved and collected, often get emotional. Most of us work very hard and deal with a fair amount of stress, particularly in the week leading up to launch. If people want to let loose with some celebratory chants so be it.

I suppose we could all just start chanting SpaceX-SpaceX-SpaceX although somehow I have feeling someone would find that equally offensive as well.

I'm seriously starting to think SpaceX should just stop broadcasting the view from inside the Hawthorne facility.

You have given a fairly comprehensive explanation (here and in other comments) as to why it's unreasonable to be disturbed by the chanting and why it would be beneficial for SpaceX employees to be let chanting as they wish.

I don't think is enough or appropriate. A significant fraction of global viewership is disturbed and alienated by the chants. It might well be that they're having the wrong feelings for wrong reasons, but realistically they will not adapt, and SpaceX's actions will not change their attitude in this regard, and they will continue to feel alienated.

I would like to see this properly weighted and considered as a consequence. It's similar to many other situations where you believe that people with different religions and attitudes are offended for ultimately wrong reasons, but you still don't go casually provoking them or making them feel bad.

Thanks for sharing your point of view and I appreciate you doing so in a respectful manner and taking my own feelings on the subject into account.

I'm still not sure what the best solution to this problem would be. While I certainly believe that everyone, including and perhaps especially Americans, should be more cognizant of how our actions are viewed by others, I don't in general like the idea of constantly being fearful that some action, no matter how innocuous you may think it is, will cause offense to someone else and thus needs to be avoided. I think it's fair to assume that some of the things you or I may do or believe will be offensive or alienating to someone somewhere. I hope you can find my attempt at understanding your point of view sincere and that I don't mean to be dismissive of your concerns.

I also don't know what could be done to address the issue internally without upsetting many people here. Even I would find a banning of the chants to be heavy handed on the part of management.

As I said previously, perhaps the best course of action would be to simply stop broadcasting from within the Hawthorne facility. The launch and recovery feeds are far more interesting than the employee celebrations anyway.

Reading this thread has been an interesting opportunity for introspection. A number of people on both sides have made very valid points. In particular, your description of the atmosphere on the inside makes the whole thing quite a lot easier to accept, and even get behind.

With this said, I think I've also come to understand more about why instinctively I feel a little uncomfortable. It is because as a foreigner who would love to work for SpaceX, I don't feel I can - because it is nigh impossible in this day and age to become American without some decent amount of wealth. If it wasn't for ITAR, I think the chant would be less uncomfortable, because it would be less exclusionary.

That said, I don't think you or other Americans should give a rats about what randoms on HN think. We're just jealous of your opportunity to be part of history. Don't feel guilty about having an opportunity, but instead do your best with it. And if that means chanting USA, then do it without any second thoughts!

Thanks for the kind words and believe me when I say how disappointed I feel knowing that there are many people like you who would like to work at SpaceX that aren’t afforded the opportunity simply because of where you happened to be born. I can definitely understand how under your circumstances you may feel that the USA chants are exclusionary and I certainly harbor no ill will if that is how you feel. I would probably feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

Speaking of introspection, your comment highlights for me just how lucky I am to be able to work here. I say this as an immigrant who, while growing up in the US from an early age, wasn’t granted US citizenship until adulthood, so I have some first hand experience with the overly complex US immigration process.

ITAR is a tricky issue seeing as a Falcon 9 isn’t all that different from an ICBM aside from payload but I do generally feel that the US tends to over classify programs. And while I believe the US should make the process of immigration much less burdensome, I am nonetheless inspired by how many foreign born employees I meet at SpaceX. I wonder if the percentage of non EU born workers at Arianespace approaches the number of non US born workers here. I would be genuinely pleased if they were better in this regard than we are. I could be wrong but I doubt that Roscosmos, JAXA, ISRO or CNSA employ very many foreign born citizens. Having said that, I don’t mean to dismiss the very real concerns you have expressed with the difficulty of immigrating to the US, particularly if you don’t have a great deal of wealth.

Again, I’m very sympathetic to the feelings that others have expressed with regards to the USA chants being exclusionary, even if I myself don’t believe this to be their intent. My main problem with some comments in this thread have centered around equating the chants with a Nazi rally or describing those who engage in them as classless or devoid of dignity. I find those statements a tad extreme and the fact that some of those statements went unchallenged suggests to me that there may be many people here who hold similar views, which I find surprising.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective with me.

this is ridiculous... at what point do we have to just water down everything so much that we walk on egg shells 24/7 so we don't misconstrue our actions or unintentionally disturb the 7billion people of the world. Give me a break.

As a viewer of the launches, I'd be sad if the broadcast moved out of Hawthorne.

We get to see a sometimes-messy slice of the culture, but we're also seeing how real engineers celebrate a real milestone accomplishment. There's not enough of that visible outside the walls of engineering; people still think of it as a boring profession.

A society gets more of what it celebrates. We should keep highlighting the joys of a gigantic plan coming together.

I guarantee that nobody who worked their asses off to accomplish this amazing feat and chanted cares a single wit about your feelings of alienation and exclusion from their accomplishment. If you care that much about it, get competitive and get to work besting them.

The more space launch companies there are in competition, the better we are as a species. The chant is a call to you to get to work.

It's a culture clash, in Britain the only time you would be in a room full of people chanting like that is either a football match or a far right gathering.

For us, and possibly other European countries, that kind of patriotic expression is taboo because it's associated with football hooliganism and extreme right wing politics. I suppose there are certain circumstances where you might sing 'God save the queen' in some kind of particularly old fashioned formal ceremony but it would never happen spontaneously and makes plenty of people feel a bit awkward. Out of all my friends and family I can think of perhaps one or two people that would even know the words.

Maybe not bad per se, but from a British perspective, it's certainly quite strange.

I would never identify my own or my company's achievements as evidence that the UK was great as a nation. I'd be doing the same in whatever country I lived in. In some ways, we achieve things despite being in the UK rather than because of it. Crushing inequality, expensive education, corrupt politics, lack of housing. These are not very business or tech friendly and are less of a problem elsewhere.

Aside from that, feeling proud because of other people's achievements just because you were born in the same country as they were is not really very common in Europe as far as I can tell.

>Maybe not bad per se, but from a British perspective, it's certainly quite strange.

The UK is still working out empire guilt, in the same way the Germans tend to tamp down nationalism because of WW II. I don't find it surprising, but I don't think it's healthy either. A little bit of nationalism is good for a country.

Because it makes the whole think look like a Trump rally. Have some class, show some dignity.

I find your insinuation that by simply chanting U-S-A an entire group of people can be described as classless and without dignity to be troubling.

I work at SpaceX. I was not born in the US and although I now hold US citizenship and consider myself thoroughly American, I usually refrain from taking part in these chants. I do this not as a kind of silent protest against them, but because I simply don't like showing such outward exuberance as I have an extremely reserved personality. I’m the kind of person that would prefer to sit quietly during a sporting event rather than shout or clap. With that being said, the U-S-A chants don’t bother me and it's somewhat disheartening to see them consistently brought up as reflecting poorly on the employees at SpaceX.

I will also add that as an American even I have sometimes, particularly during my childhood living in Texas, felt uncomfortable with some of the more boisterous ways Americans tend to express feelings of national pride, so I can understand why others may find this troubling. It took me some time to realize that in the overwhelming majority of cases, there is no malice or jingoistic sentiment behind these expressions, and in fact I don’t even view them as exclusionary. It may be difficult for someone who hasn’t spent a lot of time living in the US to understand just how innocuous and widespread things like the USA chants are. Its simply something that is easy to say and catchy, while declaring pride in your country.

There are many employees here who aren’t natural born US citizens whom I see join in the chants. In fact, I’ve seen non US citizens working here join in as well.

I understand that I say this having adapted to American cultural norms, and I’m trying my best to be understanding of the opposing views. I personally don’t find it difficult to feel a sense of wonderment, respect and admiration towards the accomplishments of other countries, even when those countries view said accomplishments as matters of national pride and I am finding it hard to understand why so many others seem to be bothered by this.

It’s also important to note that the space program is, in my opinion, one of the few things that still elicit a strong sense of national pride and achievement across political lines here in the US. The American public still today seems to be aware of the broad national policies that have led and continue to lead to the achievements of our space program and rightfully feel a sense of pride in their successes. The accomplishments of SpaceX don’t exist in a vacuum and many of us working here realize a shared sense of gratitude that we owe the American taxpayer.

I also find it a bit strange that in my experience other nationalities, in particular those from Europe, tend to view Americans as rather close minded and without much understanding of foreign cultures. While I agree that in general this is definitely something that Americans need to work on, in this case I’m struck by the irony of the commenters here singling out a cultural “quirk” as has been described by others, and subsequently drawing negative conclusions about it despite the fact that I can see no way in which the U-S-A chants can possibly be misconstrued as denigrating of any other countries.

It was late, I was very tired and perhaps I didn't express my views as well as I should have.

I tried to make it very clear that I in fact didn't find the criticisms of the chants troubling, and that in some ways I could even understand them.

What I specifically found troubling, and feel I articulated this quite clearly, was the notion that by simply engaging in these chants, employees were automatically devoid of class or dignity. Those were the words of the parent comment, not my own, and that is what I took issue with.

With regard to your second point I can understand why countries may find the chants of USA off putting.

the world has changed... in older generations you were allowed to be patriotic without being dumped on

I think you were supposed to be patriotic, with the cold war and all.

Now a days, you are supposed to understand that governments indoctrinate patriotism and purposely inflict unneeded international distrust and tensions for their own selfish agenda.