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But you aren't opening an unlocked window (or door, or curtain). You're asking the property manager to open it for you, and they do.



Also breaking and entering!


Breaking and entering implies there is no authorization but here we have the property manager saying yes.

Also, breaking and entering is generally a misdemeanor rather than a felony.

And on top of that, there is no entering. People love to paint bad abstractions on top of computers, but fundamentally all there ever can be is you asking the remote computer to do something and it deciding whether to do it or not. That doesn't look anything like B&E or trespass. The best meatspace analogy is social engineering. But there is no generic law against manipulating people and the laws against specific types of manipulation are highly context-dependent because so is the harm.


Where are you getting this "misdemeanor" thing from?

Burglary is a felony, and it's defined in most places simply by entering a building or vehicle without permission and with illicit intent (that intent need not be "to steal stuff").


> Where are you getting this "misdemeanor" thing from?

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/punishments-fo...

Breaking and entering is generally listed as a misdemeanor. Misdemeanors result in jail sentences of less than one year. However, breaking and entering is often associated with the felony crime of burglary. Burglary is usually defined as "breaking and entering with the intent to commit a felony while on the premises".

The difference between burglary and B&E of "intent to commit a felony" is the sort of thing that justifies the felony charges. I don't see that requirement in the CFAA.


Nope, same deal with the CFAA, which is why the CFAA cross-charging with the Wire Fraud statute is so problematic.


The CFAA doesn't have "intent to commit a felony," it has committed in furtherance of any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State, which is much broader. It allows felony penalties without felonious intent.

And as you point out, even that limitation is basically swallowed by the fact that the Wire Fraud statute covers very similar conduct to the CFAA, so they can charge you with computer fraud in furtherance of wire fraud.


The physical building metaphors are yours and you keep pushing back to those. The whole point of a standards-compliant webserver is to speak to standards-compliant web clients. When used without a password, on a public IP, at a standard port, the simple existence implies you're allowed to speak to it.

Asking a human for a document isn't a crime, so it shouldn't be when you ask a computer.

Fraudulently claiming to be someone else to get a document is a crime, and that's how it should be on a computer.


This is another super popular argument about computer security, and it falls apart almost instantly under scrutiny. By your logic, I can dump a SQL database full of credit card numbers due to an SQLI in a GET handler, because, after all, the software components are just doing what they're meant to do!


No, at least in my standard, that would be material deception. You said that was your name/address/whatever, but it's actually an SQL command.

I suppose you'll ask what if someone's name really is Bobby Tables, but then I submit that it either can't be tailored to your database, or that their intent when changing their name to exploit you counts as social engineering and I don't consider it worth optimizing for.


How is that any different from "I can reasonably infer that my customer ID is 101, but I told you it was 102 in a URL to see the account information for a different customer"?

These issues are less fraught than people seem to think they are. We walk through commercial spaces all the time that are full of unlocked, unmarked doors, and it rarely takes us more than a moment to realize when we've gone somewhere we weren't meant to be. It's not a new problem.


The difference is the ultimate usefulness and workability of the system.

Let's say I spray-paint people's medical records on the sidewalks in the park. It's not your responsibility to avoid the park despite anything you may see. A public area by definition carries no expectation of you having to wonder if you were meant to be there.

Similarly, if I leave sensitive information all over some publicly accessible URLs it shouldn't be your obligation to avoid those URLs, even gratuitously. As it's not your obligation to plug your ears when your neighbors fight, etc. You are still obliged to not break the law even if supplied with the means. But that means the act of blackmailing is illegal, not the listening.

The current application of the current law requires reading the mind of the viewer/listener/requester. That would punish you for picking up my keys from the sidewalk just because you don't play well to the jury.

tldr; The proper law would only penalize actual crime, not theoretical crimes.


Yeah, but we don't normally hammer people that open the wrong unmarked door by mistake in a long hall full of unmarked doors. It's not hard to typo a URL. It's not unreasonable to connect to anonymous FTP--they choose to authorize you and you have no good reason to second-guess them.

Now, yes, when you do that 100 times with a script, you can argue that they're doing something bad... which is why I also advocate a safe-harbor for people who report the bug only to the site owners or the government. If someone is making a reasonable effort to help you fix your bad security, we shouldn't be treating them like a bad guy.


No, we hammer them for what they do with those URLs; for instance: long IRC conversations about how they're going to sell the identities of everyone who bought an iPad to spammers, or suchlike.


Assuming that was just a joke and they didn't actually do that and that they did report it to the site owners or a government agency that could reasonably be assumed to oversee it, I wouldn't hammer them.

If they actually do that or take steps that would make a reasonable person conclude that they actually were on their way to do that before they were caught? Then yes, hammer away.

I'm more concerned with their being a brighter line for what is and isn't unauthorized access and a safe harbor so people can't hammer anyone who simply makes them look bad by pointing out that their fly is open.

If you can fit facts of some old case to show that they were guilty in a principled way, I won't argue. I may or may not agree with the specific reading of the facts, but at least I would find that to be a principled disagreement.

My point in this exercise is to shift things from an exercise in how people feel about some particular intrusion or a person's motives which are things not likely to reach broad consensus to an exercise where we debate the specific facts of the case which reasonable people should be able to agree upon given enough information, no matter how they feel about the parties of any particular case.


Criminal law doesn't work that way. Most of it is motivated very powerfully by the inferred motives of the accused. Google mens rea.


I specifically require material deception as an overt act that establishes some level of mens rea for that very reason, but my construction is meant to frame discussion of their motives around overt acts, rather than attempts at mind reading, which are far more susceptible to personal biases of every kind. Having elements of the crime that demonstrate criminal intent is not, in fact, a construction unknown to law in general. The elements of a crime like shoplifting might require elements like both concealing the merchandise and attempting to exit the store. You can see that the act of concealment gives information about their motives in a way subject to fact-based inquiry, rather than having to attempt to read someone's mind. And people can come to a fact-based conclusion about this, as the jurors have to say this person didn't actually conceal and remove the merchandise, rather than saying this kid looks like a good guy, or that kid looks like a thief and deciding a motive from that.

So I think you'll find that the better-constructed laws require overt acts that inform us about motive in many (but not all) cases, rather than mere inferences about motive. Though I certainly agree that there are reasonable facts which one can use to infer mens rea from. Good intent can also be inferred--that's why I specified a safe harbor for people who were trying to simply do the right thing and report a bug they'd found. Someone who reports a problem to the site owners in good faith is simply not someone I think we should be hitting with criminal penalties in general, though this might be weighed against other things like attempts to ransom the bug or sending DROP DATABASE injections and whatnot which could wipe out any inference of good intent.

That said, I've always said this was my view of how the law ought to work. Implicit in that is that the law does not, in fact, work that way, so I honestly can't disagree with you here--the law certainly doesn't work my way, and this is all my own thinking on how it ought to work in my own view. So inasmuch as you're saying the law doesn't work this way, I completely agree.


Scraping sites for email addresses isn't illegal or we'd arrest Google. It's the spam that's actionable. So intent to scrape email addresses to give to spammers doesn't constitute mens rea.

There has to be 1) believable intent to 2) commit an actual crime.

Your reasoning is circular without that - "he had bad intent so whatever he was doing was illegal which is how we can say his intent was bad rather than simply unsavory, etc."

There's no valid precedent for simply requesting a document being illegal, nor ultimately a security benefit from it being so.


Non sequitur.


I think he's just saying you need an actus reus to go with your mens rea.


I think you have that backwards. Trespassing is your actus reus. What's at issue is intent, or mens rea. You're looking for firmer indications of mens rea than, apparently, you've seen in CFAA cases to date.


I'm saying that "trespassing" is too broad an actus reus to establish mens rea because we interact with websites in a very different way from real property. I've proposed an alternate set of rules (material deception + a safe harbor) that I feel better capture actual criminal intent.




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