Born in the slums of Kiev raised by a single mother, immigrated out of there to Canada and now in the Bay Area.
Sure it has history, and some places look really nice...but come on. Seems to be a bit of western romatiziation, but the whole country is / was about to explode (I stood in The Square during the Orange Revolution), there are no opportunities, the country is being literally, fucked, by Russia and the West on the other side as some neo-proxy war circa 1960. Oh and the corruption, corruption everywhere. Pulled over? No problem, just put a 50 in the passport and hand it over non-challantely. What seems to be problem officer?. Oh...I don't have a fire extinguisher, well look in the passport you'll definitely see it.
Pensioners and the disabled are getting royaly shafted by economy, disability insurance and pensions have remained stable but the currency devalued on a rate that is almost comparable to Venezuela.
The president before the current one spent time in jail.
I know people from Kiev that have visited Canada, and are literally trying their hardest to get out before they get killed. When the power goes out at night, almost everyday they think the Russian have finally decided to bomb them.
If you're anything but white, even slightly asian looking, get ready to be called racial slurs on the streets.
Neofacism is rampant, skinheads used to roam the streets.
Half the people from my school either got hooked on drugs or alcohol before Grade 8. The AIDS epidemic literally almost swallowed the whole country. There were horrible stories as a child that I used to hear of kids in the playground playing with needles from heroin addicts and getting infected with HIV because they stabbed themselves on accident and their parents coming to the brink of suicide because of that. I also remember a story in the news when somebody put a pin upside down in a movie theatre with a bit of blood on it, and nearby a note that said "Welcome to the HIV family"... and somebody sat on it.
The article is written by expat. And I think Kiev is a great city to be expat in. It's beautiful, it's vibrant and if you're not in 9-to-5-with-2-hours-commute rut you can avoid a lot of negative sides of living there. Having ticket out helps.
My immigration timeline is the same and since 2008 I go to Kiev every year and things do change. Some for worse, some for better, some changed for worse and then for better. I think I understand what author meant by youthful energy. It's there all right. Despite everything there are happy young faces on the streets and in parks. Funny kids in rad glasses and bow-ties (and when I was teenager sporting long hair was asking for trouble). Chasopys co-working space is abuzz with people collaborating either in person or over internet. New attractions, new places, new events. I hope this energy won't dry out.
Kiev is not as bleak as described in parent post. Life is fucked up by war but the city is worth visiting. Worth moving there too if you're on adventurous side of expat tribe.
I'm living in Kyiv right now and it this seems like the most reasoned response in this chain. Expats tend to have an overly optimistic view of Ukraine because they don't have to deal with the day to day bullshit native Ukrainians endure because of eastern violence, corruption and needless bureaucracy, but Ukrainians I've met also tend to see the US (and I would assume the "West" in general) as overly idealized because of Western media and misleadingly opportunistic headlines.
Wow, talk about exaggeration... I live in Kyiv all my life, but travel to San Francisco frequently. And the latter feels MUCH more dangerous (especially around the Tenderloin area where most startup offices are located). Drug addicts, homeless and mentally ill everywhere on the street, it smells piss, it's hard to walk for 10 minutes without someone yelling obscenities at you, gun violence is ridiculously high, etc. With the new bright president in the US, it may get much worse — hate, anger and division spread like plague. You can find negative points like this in almost any place on Earth.
I traveled the world quite a bit, but never felt like relocating to any other city — sure, they are huge issues, but if you surround yourself with good people, it's wonderful to live here.
You are, of course, right; But the blame is on both sides.
Russia, UK, and US signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. When the time came to pay the Piper...everyone chickened out and essentially allowed Russia to show aggression unchecked.
You're not wrong, but I'm not sure how else it could have turned out. War between the US and Russia has been avoided for a reason. Perhaps if they were a part of NATO, which carries the serious threat of equating an attack on any member as an attack against all members. But of course everything Russia has done in Ukraine over the last 10 years has been in an effort to stop any remote chance of Ukrainian membership in NATO, to avoid that very problem.
Some blame NATO expansion as "triggering" Russia, but honestly, what does Russia expect after occupying Eastern Europe for 50 years. Those Eastern European countries don't want a return to that. Harsh, autocratic Soviet policies guaranteed antagonism.
I think the thinking is Russia wants Sebastopol as a navy port on the black sea to counteract Nato --as well as Putin having to act tough in order to have the Russian people on his side. Russia is somewhat nationalistic and the people are loath to see them suffer further deterioration to the image of a relatively strong Russia. It's basically the only card he has to play.
So from a geopolitical standpoint, they are kind of between a rock and a hard place. The west wants to sanction Russia and Russia wants to show it is still a formidable force as well as needs to have a deep water port in the black sea.
> The AIDS epidemic literally almost swallowed the whole country.
I think you abuse the word "literally" a bit. Ukraine has had a huge problem with AIDS, and the HIV infection level at 1.3% of the whole population is horrible. That's a far cry from "literally almost swallowing the whole country" though.
> Pulled over? No problem, just put a 50 in the passport and hand it over non-challantely.
I can personally vouch that this is true. I traveled to Kiev in 2010 to present at the local PyCon. On the way back home to the airport my taxi was pulled over for "speeding" (he was not). The situation was resolved by an exchange of cash, no ticket necessary.
It was 7 years ago. We have all new patrol police, new government services, etc. Of course corruption still here, but things are changing. Hope you will visit this year's PyCon to ensure
Let me add that I loved Kiev during my visit. The taxi incident was the only encounter of corruption on my entire trip.
It should be known that the US isn't immune to this graft either (e.g., my aunt passed her driving test in Chicago via a conveniently placed $20 bill).
The comment author went into a yellow newspaper grade rampage here, (huge) overstatements like
> the country is being literally, fucked, by Russia and the West
> the whole country is / was about to explode
> people ... are literally trying their hardest to get out before they get killed
> When the power goes out at night, almost everyday they think the Russian have finally decided to bomb them.
and urban myths from the 90s (like the HIV needle story) included.
"slums of Kiev" might sound scary, but a lot of cities anywhere have their less interesting places. No matter what country you are from, if you want a life you will want to be out of those as soon as possible. And even then by "slums" I suppose the author meant sovietic social housing, where a lot of decent people lived and do still.
In ukrainian message boards, on news resources and youtube comment sections you can find statements of similar quality, but less thick. Those are usually left by pro-russian trolls to stir some "debate" that ends in slurs and swearing, not to say author is one.
Some points are valid like the president one, but even the best of us make mistakes by not taking an active enough stance.
To conclude, this post is not on a technical matter, but at least the author could try to keep it cool and constructive.
I have spent time in both Kyiv and Lviv and have to say your account of the situation seems to be complete different than what I experienced. Do you think what you're saying is still accurate for someone who left what seems as a long time ago and has never been back. The power didn't go out on us and I saw no skin heads. I didn't experience this Neofacism you speak of. Are you sure your not talking about Moscow?
Edit - should revise somewhat. Has to do with slight differences between Russian, modern Ukrainian and older Ukrainian, as well as changes to how Ukrainian is transliterated.
Spelling it 'Kiev' is the 'Russian' way. Good Ukrainians spell it 'Kyiv', because that's how the Ukrainian nationalists do it. Also, there's no fascists in Ukraine, if you ask Ukrainian nationalists. Asking if he's talking about Moscow is akin to calling him a Russian shill.
The propaganda is strong in modern Ukraine - don't dare question the new pro-west narrative. Never mind the fact that Poroshenko has a lower approval rating than Yanukovych did (still can't touch Yushchenko's 3% approval rating though).
The AIDS epidemic literally almost swallowed the whole country.
I appreciate your input overall, but you're making more than a slight exaggeration, here. Even countries with the world's highest HIV infection rates were never "almost literally swallowed" by the epidemic.
+1 Born and raised in Ukraine.
The current government is equally corrupt. The bureaucracy is epic, good luck opening your business there, they may simply lose your documents.
Unfortunately the stories about the needles are true.
I emigrated from Kiev at the age of 16, back in 1997. I jumped at the first opportunity to get out of there, even though I knew it would be tough for some years to come at the new place. As you can imagine, I hated everything about that country.
I felt completely unprotected - there was no effective law, everyone was either scared shitless and fighting for survival -- or a thug. It felt like the thugs had complete power over "normal citizens" like myself. I was used seeing them on my way home from school on the street corners waiting for a chance to jump at a passerby and rob them. Often they would approach you and start a conversation, probing your fear. Then you can only get away without being humiliated/beaten/robbed by walking to a crowded place, maybe.
My dad, a scientist working at an institute (in the Soviet and post-Soviet system the science was done in specialized "institutes", not in universities), could barely make ends meet. That was in part because of hyperinflation (at the lowest point he was making $100-$200 per month, IIRC) and in part because of accumulating delays in salary payouts. I remember some periods of time when all we had was bread, spaghetti and potatoes. We could not even afford transport expenses for me to go to school - thankfully, the transport system was in such shambles that there were barely any inspectors in the Metros and buses, and certainly they didn't care enough to seriously try to punish me for using it for free. Lots of people did that during the worst years in the 90's.
Many were left in the cold, with no means to survive. A generation of pensioners basically died from hunger after years of struggle and humiliation. Old people begging for money in the streets were a common sight.
Everything was dirty, malfunctioning, disintegrating. Police, courts, doctors, the army - all corrupt. Army service was an absolute hell - underfunded, unoccupied, with disintegrating facilities and corrupt officers, the soldiers were at the mercy of inevitable bullies and thugs of their unit. Let me just say that the abuse was commonplace and leave it at that.
Finally, it felt like everyone hated each other. Racism and xenophobia of every kind. People just waiting to exploit your weakness.
Before leaving, I thought there would be periods of home-sickness I would have to fight. Nothing like that ever happened. I left my parents and family behind, but was reluctant to even come for a visit; only visited them once, in 1998. I often hear claims that it's all different now. But I think that's wishful thinking - the same thugs who made it hell back in 1997 are still alive and kicking. And, more importantly, so is the culture that nurtured them.
I actually think your father made 10-20$ at the time.
Don't laugh, it's the reality of post-soviet states. I gather that today, $200 is a nice salary in Ukraine (and some parts of Russia too)
That's a gripping account, thanks for sharing it. It's grotesque to me to see people in the west make a case for communism knowing every implementation of it has led to the kind of extreme misery and suffering you described. I imagine it must be completely infuriating to an actual victim of that system.
Having spoken Russian as a kid, since my family were immigrants and it was used a little bit in my house, I can definetly attest to how strange it is to hear someone speak Ukrainian.
You'll be sitting there listening and everything is going fine and then a few seconds into the conversation you'll think one of you had a stroke. It's like talking to someone in English and then they instantly migrate to a thick Irish-blacksmith dialect of English or maybe even cockney. You get the basis of what they're saying but it just isnt coming through at all.
Anyway Kyiv is definetly on the list of amazing places to visit.
Ha! Similarly, I always thought that if you know Russian Ukrainian sounds a little silly. Every time I visit my folks (Ukrainian & Armenian fam) they always have Ukrainian TV on. I really started paying attention and appreciating the language. It flows so much better than Russian and sounds so melodic. It's really beautiful. One thing I found odd is that I simply cannot comprehend it most of the time outside of picking out separate words here and there. Both of my parents have near-native comprehension of the language even though neither can speak it.
Russian definitely had conplex flow, similar to German I think. Most songs therefore have to be unusually heavy on vocabulary and plot, Dostoevsky-style. If you try to make lyrics simple it sounds awful.
Every once in awhile, I catch a snatch of what sounds a little bit like Russian, but they're a little too far away, or the subway car is a little too loud, for me to make out. I wonder how often I'm actually hearing Ukrainian.
As someone who grew up in Kiev and lived there most of his life before moving across the ocean I find this article surprisingly precise in details and having rather deep insight into the city's spirit. Of course, there is a bit of idealization which is normal for any foreigner moving to a new place, but many things are very true. Kiev is a very old city that has lived through many epochs. It's seen the Mongol-Tatar invasion, dealt with Osman rulers, fought the Russians with the Polish, the Polish with the Turks, and the Turks with the Russians (historians, don't be nitpicky here). It survived the Russian empire, both the world wars and the USSR. Having that rich history Kiev is very eclectic, artsy and vibrant. And yes, it's a city of extremities. You can see poor and rich, old and new, run down and prospering, past and future all mixed up. But that's the spirit of the city. If you have never been to this part of the world I highly recommend visiting it -- even if it's currently may not be in its best shape as Ukraine is going through hard times. Staying there for longer might require some survival skills most of which are required to deal with extremely inefficient post-Soviet government system. The main skill to get is networking, because it's the only way to deal with the corrupt and bureaucratic government machine.
From a practical perspective, Ukraine is a good source of decent software developers and designers. My project probably won't happen if I didn't have our R&D team in Ukraine which allowed me to reduce development costs at least twice. Sending payments to Ukraine would require going through a bit of hassle with paperwork, but it's doable and Ukrainian developers usually know how to deal with it. Feel free to drop me a line at <hn name> (a) easymorph.com if you need some advice on it.
The part about time is poetic: A clock is referred to in the plural “часы” (time), which identifies a clock through its action of measuring time as opposed to the English word, which identifies it as a fixed tangible object.
FWIW here in China (where I see many Ukranians arriving recently) you have a 時鐘 (shi zhong; "time bell/clock") or 鐘錶 (zhong biao; "bell/clock readout"), as well as variants such as 手錶 (shou biao; "hand display"). Semantically these center around the character 鐘 (zhong), which itself is comprised of 金 (metal) to the left, and 童 (youth/innocence/servitude) to the right. However, in history, 鐘 meant a bell (possibly specifically implying ritual striking by servant). Interestingly, in abstract discussion of time as a noun, the term becomes 時間 which literally means "time space" or "space in time".
It's "годинник" in Ukrainian and its meaning is a fixed tangible object, something close to '(hours)er'. Russian word "часы", in Ukrainian spelled "часи", means "times" as in 'the old times'.
I lived in Kyiv for more than a year and watched both revolution and Russian invasion.
It was never about "soft power" influence the author and other media usually talk but about a lot of people being tired of poverty, corruption, and power abuse.
It was never about "American government winning hearts" but about Russian government sending caskets to Ukrainian families. I saw many neutral folks who became pro-West because of the attack on their homeland.
Pro-West media always spoke of a forceful annexation of Crimea by Russia while anti-West media always spoke of voluntary annexation (Crimea people voted to join Russia). What is correct in your opinion? There is so much spin from both sides I cannot tell which side is lying less.
A hypothetical voluntary annexation is equivalent to a messy divorce. Some open-ended questions include
1) What happens to the private property owned by citizens of Ukraine? Citizens of Russia? Citizens of a random third-party country?
2) How is government property transferred? There's some obvious non-commercial real estate here (parks, beaches) as well as commercial (government buildings)? What happens to a property publicly financed by bonds (stadiums, airports, railroads) or other mechanisms?
3) How's national debt handled? Crimea historically attracted more government subsidies than the tax revenues collected, so in a sense it played quite a significant role in formation of that debt. Do certain obligations by Ukrainian government get marked as Crimean, pending the bondholders' approval? Does the working group define some pro rata share of the debt everyone agrees on? Or does Crimea gets to start with a clean slate, while Ukraine gets stuck (ha-ha!) with the bills accummulated over the decades?
Even with an amicable separation some of those issues could take years to figure out (Grexit and Brexit being good examples of complexity). Complete absence of any work in this matter shows that Russia was less interested in establishing its rule of law over Crimea and more in destabilizing its parent entity.
Both. Russian forces occupied it, but Crimea's population is over 60% Russian. While the exact referendum poll numbers could have been fabricated (95% for), most of the polls after the referendum showed 80+% support.
It was actually 100% because both of the questions asked at the referendum meant secession from Ukraine; i.e. it wasn't a simple "yes" or "no", it was essentially "secede immediately" or "do it a bit later".
First: did the residents of Crimea prefer to be part of Ukraine or part of Russia?
Second: should residents of a region have the right to declare independence (or annex themselves to another country) without getting permission from the government of their current country?
The US fought a bloody war 150 years ago to settle this issue (no, US states do not have the right to leave). But they followed a different policy on Kosovo.
The Russians have been happy to recognize the right of Abkhazia and Crimea to determine their own path, but didn't grant the same rights to Chechnya (or recognize the split of Kosovo from Serbia).
China, with Tibet, Taiwan, and Hong Kong on its mind, did not show any support for Crimea's move to Russia.
I think these questions are a mute point here, because Crimea wasn't annexed to appease the people of Crimea; it was annexed to deliberately f* up Ukraine and boost Putin's popular support in Russia.
> The Russians have been happy to recognize the right of Abkhazia and Crimea to determine their own path
As long as "their own path" means being part of Russia. Had there been any political force even talking about any other path, they'd be swiftly suppressed, it's a felony in Russia to promote secession.
I would guess that it's a felony only if you promote secession from Russia. For instance, people living in Russia are playing some kind of role in the California secession movement ("Calexit") [1].
Oh of course I meant "secession from Russia". It's OK to promote any other kind of secession, as long as it does not contradict Kremlin policies (if it does, you could be a target of anything from low-level harassment to murder).
Crimeans just asked for the same right against Ukraine as Ukrainians asked against Russia. And it was direction population liked most. The same asked east of Ukraine which is at war now. This is how "soft power" works in these countries with a little help from western friends.
Kiev is indeed awesome place to visit however you should be a desperate guy to move there not being slav.
Crimeans just asked for the same right against Ukraine as Ukrainians asked against Russia.
They didn't "just ask", of course. A visit by 3,000 or so "vacationing" soldiers from a certain large, neighboring country had something to do with it also.
Just to set the record straight, even though no one is likely to read this.
> Crimeans just asked for the same right against Ukraine as Ukrainians asked against Russia.
Ukraine and Russia both declared independence from the USSR in the months before the USSR was officially dissolved in 1991 [1]. In Soviet times, Ukraine was not part of Russia; they were both constituent "Republics" of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, with the right to secede from the USSR, under the USSR constitution. They both exercised this right, but it is not correct that Ukraine asked for independence from Russia, since it was not part of Russia.
As for "help from western friends", President Bush in Kiev, in 1991, before Ukraine left the USSR, warned the Ukrainians against "suicidal nationalism"; he refused to meet with leaders of the pro-independence movement [2].
I'm Kievian who recently moved abroad.
Kiev is cool as long as you don't interact with our corrupted government, justice and healthcare, as long as you don't work for the local market (which is undeveloped and lacks of money), as long as you move by uber/taxis/own car, not the local marshrutkas, etc.
Kiev is cool if you have money. But only because the majority of people don't have it :-)
For example, if you want to bootstrap your micropreneur venture or work remotely/freelancing, it's a choice. You're able to live like a king and spend less than 2000$/month. Yeah, the rent cost in the bay area = awesome life in the Western Europe.
Welcome to our glorious city and I'm very glad to see my home on the front page! Also, feel free to reach me (dy at deepmagic dot io) if you need Kiev-related help (or maybe programming help, as well)
Wow... inspiring. Makes me want to visit Eastern Europe, an urge that has been almost subconsciously repressed through years of Western education and culture (e.g. Ukraine, Georgia, etc. being referred to as "2nd world").
I don't think that's propaganda undeserving of some of the Eastern block countries. I asked my grandma if she'd ever want to go back to Russia with me to visit it one last time and she said something along the lines of "Death is the option I'd take before anyone dragged me back there".
A lot of Iron Curtain people had a bad experiance and it's still a hot-bed of corruption but as many other things these countries being "good" or "bad" isn't black and white. They all have amazing culture, architecture, history, and people but they are "different" from western places.
I only know what I have been told from my grandparents and from friends who have the money to travel. I don't mind what I've heard but it's really up to one's self to make such a choice.
I wouldn't go to Russia either, but Kyiv is a great place to visit. I also recommend Lviv while you're at it - one of the most charming European towns I've ever seen.
And of course Georgia: it's very easy to fly from Kyiv to Tbilisi or Kutaisi. But beware: you go there once, you'll want to come back for the rest of your life ;)
I've been living in Budapest for eight months. It's a fantastic city. People are friendly for the most part, once you get past the dourness. The only thing I don't like about living here are the hordes of drunken Brits on stag parties.
The OP has barely hinted at one big benefit to Kiev if you're a young, single, heterosexual male. As much as the Bay Area is misery for meeting and dating women, Kiev is joy. In fact, the Ukraine in general.
This is partly due to the male to female ratio (Ukraine = good for men, Bay Area = dismal) and partly cultural difference. Also, the status of being a developer or engineer in the Ukraine makes you a 1 percenter; in the U.S., a developer is nothing special, even considered boring.
The typical single male in the Bay Area probably doesn't even realize how bad he has it, or how much better it could be in a different place, because his life experience is based on dating in that one location.
Go there and experience it for yourself. Take a 3-month sabbatical from your work, learn a bit of Russian or Ukrainian (this will help a lot!), rent a flat, and talk to women at every opportunity. You'll find it surprisingly easy to meet and date beautiful women.
Male to female ratios are second order compared to being foreign and relatively monied. You allude to this by using the word 'status'.
By the same token you could suggest people go to South East Asia or parts of Latin America and flash your Macbook. Yes, it works, be careful what you wish for.
The calculus and game theory of dating is interesting for nerds (for many reasons) - you might find no place is miserable for meeting women when you let go of this. Even the Bay Area.
I am trying to say this with kindness: you should introspect on how you treat people.
Young friend of my dad's is a school teacher and spends every summer exploring Europe. He was in Kiev and everybody told him to attend the Opera. He was leaving the Opera, rounded a corner and knocked a girl flat on her ass.
Helping her up he saw she was model gorgeous so he swallowed hard and insisted taking her out to dinner the next night to apologize and she accepted. Turns out she was a travel guide. He ended spending the rest of the summer there and by the time he left he was engaged.
Had a dinner with them a while back and they wanted my help building a website so they could start a business giving guided tours to Americans each summer. But the war started and I never heard back from them.
How exactly is this even remotely sexist? There is pretty solid data on the fact that the Bay Area has far more men than women. Dating is (to an extent) a numbers game - if there are 100 men in an area and 80 women in an area, all straight and all looking for love, then 20 men are going to be single. Also, being a developer in San Francisco one of the most common jobs.
This kind of knee-jerk, virtue-signalling comment is what has devalued the word "sexist".
If I hadn't lived in NYC/Philly/some European capitals before SF, I'd be tempted agree with you. SF was a far far far harder place to connect with new friends, especially women to date. (trying hard not to sound like some MRA asshole) References to sexual reality != sexism.
> The juxtapositions in Kiev are manifold: people are either really hard on each other or very kind, the architecture beautiful or ugly, the smiles are wide and real, or faces rigid like stone, the women hot and the guys not [...]
> My move to Kiev was more of an accident laced with the intangible—a decision rooted in a feeling and impulse over rationality or reason. I can point out the obvious: it’s a beautiful city, it’s an economical place to live, it’s in a great position to connect with the world (2 hours to Istanbul, 2 hours to Berlin), it’s adventurous, it’s a city with a rich soul, its women are beautiful, it’s real, it has human connections that run deep, it’s modest with a rich history, and so on….
Personally, I felt like the author was trying too hard to be a travel writer that romanticised what he saw.
It's a bit artificial to expect place names to cross language boundaries unscathed. It's not an offense to anyone that München is called Munich by English speakers. In English, the city is known as Kiev. Anything else reduces the number of people who can read what you're writing.
-written in Seattle, Washington...or would you prefer I call it siʔaɫ?
Peking, Bombay, Upper Volta, Rhodesia and Burma have all managed to make the transition - and with more than a simple tweak to the transliteration to boot. So I don't see why we can't manage the same with Kiev?
Kyiv, Kyyiv or whatever is freaking impossible to pronounce for an English speaker. Should have gone with Kiiv, much easier to pronounce and somewhat closer to Ukrainian pronunciation.
Sure it has history, and some places look really nice...but come on. Seems to be a bit of western romatiziation, but the whole country is / was about to explode (I stood in The Square during the Orange Revolution), there are no opportunities, the country is being literally, fucked, by Russia and the West on the other side as some neo-proxy war circa 1960. Oh and the corruption, corruption everywhere. Pulled over? No problem, just put a 50 in the passport and hand it over non-challantely. What seems to be problem officer?. Oh...I don't have a fire extinguisher, well look in the passport you'll definitely see it. Pensioners and the disabled are getting royaly shafted by economy, disability insurance and pensions have remained stable but the currency devalued on a rate that is almost comparable to Venezuela.
The president before the current one spent time in jail.
I know people from Kiev that have visited Canada, and are literally trying their hardest to get out before they get killed. When the power goes out at night, almost everyday they think the Russian have finally decided to bomb them.
If you're anything but white, even slightly asian looking, get ready to be called racial slurs on the streets.
Neofacism is rampant, skinheads used to roam the streets.
Half the people from my school either got hooked on drugs or alcohol before Grade 8. The AIDS epidemic literally almost swallowed the whole country. There were horrible stories as a child that I used to hear of kids in the playground playing with needles from heroin addicts and getting infected with HIV because they stabbed themselves on accident and their parents coming to the brink of suicide because of that. I also remember a story in the news when somebody put a pin upside down in a movie theatre with a bit of blood on it, and nearby a note that said "Welcome to the HIV family"... and somebody sat on it.
Not ever in my life do I want to go back to that.