I have both the Amex Platinum and Chase Sapphire Reserve. If I could only justify one annual fee, I'd keep the Platinum. The Centurion Lounges are second to none in the US and Amex's end-to-end ownership of its purchase/return/travel protection benefits is too good to give up.
I recently attempted to file a return protection claim with my Sapphire Reserve for a display cable that turned out to be faulty. I tried the Visa Infinite site, but Visa as an organization doesn't recognize the United States as a Visa Infinite country yet so I couldn't find anything relevant there.
Then I recalled eclaimsline, which was the site I used a while ago when I had the Sapphire Preferred. It asked for my first/last name and credit card number, and then did not show me the option to file a 'return protection' claim -- just purchase and travel protection.
After that, I went on Chase's website and dug through their documentation and eventually found cardbenefitservices.com, where I was prompted to create a new account and then verify my card number again. Upon filing a claim, I was asked to upload my purchase receipt and credit card statement proving the charge had hit my account. I waited one week and received an email in my spam folder that asked me to mail the item at my own expense to Visa before my claim could finish processing -- mind you, this is for a $20 display cable.
My experience with Amex would have been a three-step online form containing a very small number of fields followed by an immediate credit within 48 hours.
My grandma passed away few months ago and I had to cancel an air ticket that I bought through Priceline.
When I called Chase to use their travel protection, the CSR redirected me to eclaimsline.com.
I filed a claim and uploaded my credit card statement showing the charge and the email receipt from Priceline. few days later they updated the claim demanding statement from both my airlines (booked on two different airlines) stating that I did not receive any refund (or partial), terms and conditions of ticket cancelation from both airlines, T&C from Priceline because i purchased via Priceline, a copy of the death certificate and statement from Priceline confirming that I didn't receive a refund or credit. And all of these statements must show the company logo (email address wasn't enough apparently).
Worst part was United didn't have a template for no refunds issued for this ticket and the CSR who emailed me chose a template that mentions credit for future flights in case of cancelation due to family emergency. My claim was denied because of the word credit in that email and I had to email few times before they finally agreed to pay me. This took well over 5months.
So yea, I'm really thinking about canceling my Reserve card and getting an Amex Platinum.
This is the exact reason I keep my Amex. I have yet to have a bad customer service experience with them, and I've asked for some pretty ridiculous stuff in retrospect.
Every time I sign up for a new card (google credit I'm looking at you) the customer experience is just absolutely horrible. I mean rip-you-off type horrible - where you enter a bank account for autopay, and they then charge you late fees for 2 months because "our terms of service say adding an autopay account may take up to 90 days". The other card I've signed up for in the last 18mo was a store credit card to get 20% off a one time purchase - and they couldn't even get that right. I had to have my lawyer call and threaten to sue before they finally credited the proper amount and closed my account. It's just ridiculous what most folks seem to put up with.
I've tried to cancel my Amex since I pay a yearly fee which I find stupid. But each time I deal with any other credit card company I pretty much realize Amex is in a league of it's own.
If they start to dip on customer service it's all over for them. That is the only thing keeping them alive on life support at this point, but that's really all it will take as long as their competition is so utterly anti-consumer.
I'm starting to avoid doing business with companies that don't take Amex. It's just not worth the hassle of dealing with anyone else. My Costco membership is no more due to this.
That all said - it's just a stupid way to pay for stuff. I'd prefer to use cash all things considered, but unfortunately that's generally not possible this day in age.
Why? Credit cards are faster, safer, easier and simpler than using cash - and come from with benefits and service. How is cash really better outside of anonymity and quick transactions these days?
Sorry this is so long, I didn't have time to write a shorter version.
> Why? Credit cards are faster
No. There's no electronic lookup to verify cash is valid. No swipe, no chip with cash.
> safer
Nope. Thanks to Target and Home Depot breaches, plus some other hacks, I've had to replace cards 4 times in the last 18 months (3 in 6 months). Those last 3 all had chips too, so much for being safer or more secure. To say nothing of skimmers or card cloning. Fortunately they don't use RFID in credit cards or else it would be double.
I will note that I was never on the hook for fraudulent charges, so protection is a definite advantage to credit. Amex has also been secure for me throughout my history with them.
> easier and simpler
Open wallet. Hand cash over. Get change, if any. This is the same effort as taking out a card, swiping/inserting it, and putting it back in my wallet. The only advantage to credit is online purchasing, which excludes cash transactions by its very nature.
> and come from with benefits and service
Very true. Except for purchase protection however, these always require a membership fee, and not all services offered are useful. I've seen high-end card services that "book your travel, hotel, everything" for you, but are still subject to blackout dates. So what am I paying $450/year for if you can't overcome that? (Takes me 15-30 minutes online to figure out) Also a lot of travel services are pegged to a single airline or hotel chain, e.g. Chase Sapphire and United Airlines. (that's working out well recently)
>How is cash really better outside of anonymity and quick transactions these days?
You said credit was "faster" and then later said cash is better from "quick" transactions? Typo?
Regarding anonymity, that's crucial. Credit card breaches risk revealing all kinds of other personal information, and can be used for credit history gaming, loan applications, identity theft, etc. There is no convenience in having your credit score wrecked by some hacker just because you bought a greeting card at Target, and then only because their HVAC vendor was lazy/stupid.
Even if that didn't happen, every company is sharing purchase and customer information. Once they link it to Facebook, they can find out what all your friends are buying as well, and then target ads or sell info to spammers. Cash prevents that, at least for now.
>> Why? Credit cards are faster
>No. There's no electronic lookup to verify cash is valid. No swipe, no chip with cash.
This goes against every experience I've had waiting behind someone with cash at the grocery store. A credit card is just a single swipe (not even a signature for low dollar amount purchases at many places), while it always takes longer for someone to pay with cash and the cashier to make change.
Making the assumption that the entire transaction flows perfectly, you're generally correct. But if your chip is dirty, or there's a network interruption, or... a 30 second transaction turns into several minutes of repeating the same actions, waiting for the skinner box to spit out some food.
Cash is only really slow because people have lost their familiarity with how to give change. I find that to be somewhat unfortunate, frankly.
> But if your chip is dirty, or there's a network interruption, or... a 30 second transaction turns into several minutes of repeating the same actions, waiting for the skinner box to spit out some food.
How many times did you have these type of issues? I've never had an issue with a "dirty chip" or a network interruption. These types of issues are very very rare.
I could tell you - your cash can get damaged while you carry them - that will make some merchants refuse to accept it, Also try going and paying with a $100 bill - a lot of places don't even accept them.
> Cash is only really slow because people have lost their familiarity with how to give change. I find that to be somewhat unfortunate, frankly.
Seriously? Did you forget how long did it take before to calculate a proper amount of change in the first place??? Nowadays cashiers have a screen that tells them right away how much change to give back, that already drastically reduced the transaction time, but it's nowhere near the transaction time of a credit card, nevermind nfc payments.
> Also try going and paying with a $100 bill - a lot of places don't even accept them.
I had a stack of $100's due to a vegas win that I could spend every location I tried (in my home town). The only caveat is I'd ask if they could change it out first, since today hardly anyone uses cash and cash drawers get slim. It's not very difficult to spend them, and that even surprised me a little.
> Seriously? Did you forget how long did it take before to calculate a proper amount of change in the first place???
Man these comments make me feel old. I didn't forget at all, I was a cashier. If you can't instantly calculate proper change for any transaction under $100 you didn't make a very good cashier. Most experienced (with cash) cashiers could trivially beat a chip-based credit card transaction. I do agree today you are correct, but I also find it incredibly sad and pathetic.
A properly trained and experienced cashier can change out a $100 bill for a random say $35.24 transaction in roughly the amount of time it takes to print one of those extra long receipts.
In fact I'm pretty sure with an hour of practicing on a cash register again I could likely match it. A few weeks and I'd consistently beat it without trying.
> but it's nowhere near the transaction time of a credit card, nevermind nfc payments.
You are correct re: NFC, but that is still not widely accepted. Chip card? Cash better be faster or your cashier is incompetent. They are incredibly slow.
I really find it strange so many on HN defend credit cards as a social good - they are not. They are a social evil if anything, exacting a 2-3% tax on all transactions since once they met plurality the merchant fees just got priced into all goods. I do not find this to be ethical at all, and feel it's one of the least ethical systems I contribute to - it's simply a wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy. Very few poor folks get to use rewards cards, and they still pay the same 2-3% merchant markup we all do. Without that huge 0% cash back customer base, your reward benefits would be slashed.
I also didn't mean my trailing comment to cause such a controversy. I wasn't actually denigrating cards on purpose there, just stating I find the whole 'churning' and 'status' scenes pretty ridiculous and silly. I dropped that prefer cash line in there as an afterthought :)
> Cash better be faster or your cashier is incompetent.
A lot of processing time of cash transaction goes into a customer opening his wallet, counting bills, searching for a change to match the amount so that he gets a solid bill instead of coins, same goes for cashier, he/she has to calculate first, double check it by counting again in front of customer. So I am sorry ,but I disagree that even back in the days it was faster to pay with cash vs today's credit cards
There are plenty of counterfeit bills so certain places or amounts will still require a check, which is far slower. It also means a greater risk for the merchant which increases costs and time.
And so what if you replace your card? Nothing happens. Credit cards are the safest possible payment type - a 5 minute phone call and they'll remove the charges and refund your money and even give you a new card number if you want. How much easier can it get? With cash you have no recourse.
By "quick" transactions, I mean craigslist, rural areas or similar scenarios that don't have the infrastructure or are too small to justify the transaction fees. If you're buying something for a few bucks from a street vendor, cash is probably best.
So you tap your card, and about 2 seconds later a receipt comes out. My 1 year old can do it. In fact, she actually loves doing it - every time we go to a store, she takes my card and I help her tap it.
Compare that to the old doddery shops using cash, where they have to take their gloves off, get your notes/coins, ring up the register, count up the change, and hand it to you?
And really - if you're handling food or near food - do you really want them handling coins/notes?
There is no way cash is faster.
Apparently US doesn't have NFC everywhere and you still have that old magnetic swipe thing? I'm assuming that will change soon though, when you guys upgrade. But yeah, definitely easier/faster.
The only shops around here that still take cash only are very low value shops, or a few Asian restaurants who everybody assumes are just doing tax evasion...lol.
In fact, at a recent popup food stall in Pyrmont - they had big signs saying "Card Only" - probably because they didn't want the safety risk of lots of small merchants handling large amounts of cash - or the possible food/health/safety violations.
And even in Coles (one of our two major supermarkets) - a lot of checkouts are Card Only - so that people using cash don't hold things up.
"Apparently US doesn't have NFC everywhere and you still have that old magnetic swipe thing? I'm assuming that will change soon though, when you guys upgrade. But yeah, definitely easier/faster."
I had a MasterCard with NFC, which was a pleasure to use at the few stores that supported it. But most stores only had swipe-type terminals at the time. (I have three other credit cards, none of which ever had NFC.)
The current version of this card has a chip, and the NFC was removed. The US is standardizing on chips (but without the PINs that make them secure), not on NFC. The chip transactions are horribly slow, much slower than a swipe. From a usability standpoint, it's a step backwards.
I've found Apple Pay to be the fastest way to pay for things. The local BurgerKing just updated their POS system and it had the RFID symbol. The lady at the till mentioned using the phone is much faster than a swipe. It's also secure as each transaction gets a unique card number. Employees can't go back and use the same card number for a number of transactions; a typical CC scam.
Yes, you are participating in a low-level wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy. I do too, but you have to understand what it is. I find it to be one of the least morally acceptable practices I participate in.
Every single person in the US now effectively pays 2-3% more for goods, and that goes directly to pay for your benefits.
I don't consider this a positive, and I honestly feel really scummy using my card in such a manner - but it's one of those things protesting doesn't really help any longer.
I also actually do value my privacy quite a bit as well - and giving banks free marketing data annoys too.
I feel the first complaint is a huge social problem, but the second rather trivial.
Also, credit cards are only faster these days vs. cash due to the insanely bad cash handling skills of the average cashier. 30 years ago this was exactly the opposite - and once in a while you'll get an old-school cashier who has worked a cash business for years and you will realize how utterly slow credit is in comparison.
When using Apple Pay at my grocery store, if I wait until the cashier is done scanning my items, it takes 4 seconds from when I tap to having the receipt come out. I can tap at any time during the transaction, and the process is nearly instantaneous. There is absolutely no way cash is faster than this.
As far as the cost of credit card rewards, the cost of managing cash for retail businesses is about 1.3% (cite http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfina...) but I honestly suspect that doesn't take into account cash shrinkage (theft). At 2-3% for credit cards, it's not a huge difference. I spend way more when I use my credit card then when I (grudgingly) use cash, so I suspect retail stores come ahead overall by taking credit over cash.
> There's no electronic lookup to verify cash is valid.
That's why cards (credit or debit) are faster; cash is validated in amount by manual counting, and for validity of individual bills often by even more cumbersome manual counterfeit detection measures. Electronic verification makes cards faster.
The safety aspect of credit cards isn't so much about fraud risk, but rather the risk of irrecoverable theft (or just accidental loss) and/or bodily harm. I feel a lot safer walking around with a bunch of credit cards in my wallet than with a few thousand dollars in cash.
There was a time I would have argued against you. Now I agree with you. You're also leaving out the very important arguments against credit cards being that they involve taking on new debt and they lack the psychological safeguards that cash has. You hand your credit card over and you get it back plus your items. You hand cash over and you don't get it back.
Also, a small thing, but you're generating less data exhaust, not involving third parties in a simple transaction, and (depending on what and where you're buying), there is the "cash discount"/not paying taxes to the banks.
There's also the "cash discount" on business taxes in heavily cash oriented businesses (think pizza joints and convienence stores). I wonder how much sales tax is missing because of untraceable transactions.
AMEX definately has problems, but as you said their service is world class.
Chase started harassing a coworker whose daughter died to try to illegally collect her debt within 72 hours of her passing. I will never do business with them.
Couldn't you have taken it back to the place where you bought it? As a European, it seems a bit weird that you have to go through your credit card company to deal with this. So if you pay cash and something is faulty you are SOL?
Here the guarantee against faulty goods is a minimum of 2 years. It's on the seller, not the manfuacturer, to repair or replace it if something goes wrong. I'd expect most stores will just straight up give you a refund for something like this.
A bit more context, this was Amazon several weeks outside their return window (the defect started a month in) and they declined. I don't blame them at all.
Sure you could try it, but it is very hit and miss.
Typically you will be bounced around from hotline to hotline until you are worn out, or they tell you yes/no refund.
With a credit card company that has a decent level of respect for you as a customer, you call them, dispute the payment, and the credit card company handles the rest, ESPECIALLY under $25.
When I have disputed, I'm asked if I tried resolution with the merchant first. I've never had the impression that dispute is a first resort solution. Many merchants actually want to please their customers.
I often wonder why the yearly fees even come up in these discussions. Presumably, if you aren't getting enough value to easily offset the cost, why on earth would you ever get the card.
When I book hotels through Amex's FHR portal, I get upgraded nearly every time into suites that cost hundreds more than I'm paying. To say nothing of the free nights, hotel credits, and early check-in/late check-out. Makes the annual fee laughable, but you have to be using these cards the right way.
Every time I went to book with my amex platinum, the hotels they offered were way overpriced for the area. I can't help but suspect you were already paying suite prices the moment you decided to book with amex. Either that or I'm just unlucky in the cities I pick to test with.
"Every time I went to book with my amex platinum, the hotels they offered were way overpriced for the area. I can't help but suspect you were already paying suite prices the moment you decided to book with amex. Either that or I'm just unlucky in the cities I pick to test with."
I'm suspicious of this too ... It's very easy to get discounts and upgrades on rooms when you start with the rack rate anyway ... can the grandparent provide some additional details or examples ? I'm genuinely curious.
I am personally a starwoods member and starwoods AMEX holder and I do typically get minor upgrades (basic room class upgraded to just-better-than-basic) as a matter of course, but it never has anything to do with what card I use - rather it is based on my current points/status with SPG ...
In fact, SPG/StarwoodAMEX is my only frequent flyer or club or membership that I have - I don't bother with any frequent flyer memberships (even when I do, in fact, fly routes/airlines frequently) and I don't join any other clubs. There absolutely is a savings/benefit to be had but I never feel that it outweighs the mental overhead and complication.
I could perhaps see "upgrading" from Starwoods AMEX to AMEX Platinum in order to get all the lounge access and the instant low-tier status at all hotels and airlines - that's one of the benefits, right ?
He's booking "Fine Hotels and Resorts", so he's looking at a room at the Ritz Carlton, and getting a better room at the Ritz Carlton. He isn't looking for a room at the Embassy Suites.
In all honesty I keep American Express because I know for a fact they will defend their customers. My dad works as an accountant for a hotel, and he told me and my mother about how people would come to the hotel, and even if they sign if they call up Amex and say they didn't stay there, they will get their refund. I know that sounds crazy, and there's room for abuse, but I am not using Amex to abuse of it, rather to know for a fact that if I purchase something I have genuine protection for my goods, especially if something fishy goes on in the other end.
It sounds like you tried to do everything yourself online. The biggest benefit (IMO) of Chase Sapphire cards is that someone picks up the phone as soon as you call (in most cases). I always start my price/return protection claims with Chase this way.
I recently returned a pair of earphones that gave me buyer's regret. I called CSR, filled out a form, emailed it back to them, and shipped with my package upon their approval. In a few weeks, I got the full $300 back as a check. Not quite 48 hours, but my experience has almost always been good. Even when I claim for a few dollars.
Chase's immediate live human customer service gives it a nice edge against Amex. However, I dislike calling in when I can do things online in what should be a faster manner.
Meh, my only experience with Amex customer service is this: I rented a car for 12 days. On day 5, as I try to drive to my own wedding, the car doesn't start. The rental car company refuses to help. I eventually get the car back to them on day 6 after AAA tells me the car should not be rented out at all.
The company refuses to return any money, so I try a chargeback through Amex. They refuse the chargeback all three times in their dispute resolution process, even for the six days I paid for but didn't use. After begging, the rental company returns the cost of 6 unused days. I never see any other money, not for the 1 day the car was disabled and no compensation for ending up late to my own wedding.
Shit happens, but if Amex can't even refund me my 6 unused days in this situation, I don't know what they can do.
That's surprising that Chase isn't trying to do a better job on their purchase protection benefits.
I dropped a phone once and cracked the screen. Since it was within 90 days, I did a claim through American Express and it took 24 hours for it to be processed. I didn't have to send it back or jump through any hoops. I don't understand why Chase wanted you to ship the cable to them?
What is a centurion lounge? You cant just drop that shit without explaining. Is it like a university club; like a place where members chill, drink, and play tennis?
And basically heaven on Earth when you're stuck in Schipol (Amsterdam) over night in a snow storm, all planes are grounded, all the in-airport hotel rooms are booked, the first four hotels you lookup are booked solid, and your only other option is basically to sleep on the floor.
For what it's worth, the explanations were interesting to me. It's not something that I feel like would be worth looking up and sorting through marketing material for (the Wikipedia entry redirects to the American Express page).
>“I don’t think it would be American Express,” one diner said. “I feel like that would be braggy, like I’m trying to prove I’m a big shot.”
>Others nodded in agreement. “I’d probably use this,” said another, pulling out a blue-tinged credit card. “An Amex says you’re rich, but this says you’re interesting.”
Where did they find these people? When did using the CSR become a statement? Everyone I know got it for the free money, and uses whatever card gets the most points for whatever purchase.
Does anyone really think owning a credit card makes you interesting? Especially one that is produced for the masses? (at least the ones who can afford the $ amount for it....)
Almost every single friend/acquaintance I know has _that_ card and no one thinks each other is more interesting because of it. It was essentially for the 100,000 points (+ travel perks)
I found that part of the article so amusing that I was about to share it with some friends, and then I started to wonder if I was making myself part of some kind of viral marketing ploy.
I actually hate that it's made of thicker metal. When I use it I feel like I look like the exact kind of idiot the article mentions, who thinks that their card being "clunk"ier makes them look more impressive.
Random people have commented on my Chase Saphire card, complimenting the weight, joking about how 'rich' I must obviously be.
It's just a thick card because it was one of the original pin & chips. It's old. The annual fee is $90. That's less than most people pay per month for cable TV.
I'm not sure why it gets so many looks, but I will admit most people just carry bank cards in this area.
Chip and pin has been a standard and pretty thin in the rest of the world before it came to the us. You were pretty late to the game, so its not like this is an early artifact with major leaps since
I have a European chip and pin card. The area around the contacts above the chip has a slight, but noticeable, bulge. I have a newer American chip and pin card. It's thicker but the card is perfectly flat. They also did away with the bump letters and numbers.
The Sapphire Reserve isn't their first card to be physically made of metal.
The first one was the Sapphire Preferred, which is presumably what the person you replied to was talking about; the Sapphire Preferred appears to have a $95 annual fee (compared to $450 on the Sapphire Reserve), lower minimum limit, and lower requirements for approval.
Although the Preferred also has an automatic $300 travel credit which covers less than a week of my average expenses over the course of a year. When I canceled my Preferred in favor of the Reserve I went through the most half-hearted workout routine from Chase I ever had in my life. The rep fully understood there was absolutely no reason for me to keep the Preferred card but still had to go through the motions of offering me a cheaper annual rate etc.
It's a NYT shtick. It's not that difficult to find a person that speaks like that, and NYT finds that person for their articles. Since getting a subscription, I've also been turned off by the tone of their reporting on political articles, where they border on sarcasm without actually saying anything negative.
I can't recall a single time where I or anyone I was with or near had ever commented on, thought anything of, or even really noticed what card somebody else was using to pay for food with.
I get this with my Navy Federal card. I dont have any "prestige" cards but I'd be surprised if anyone got more attention for them than I get for my standard issue NF debit.
I've noticed this too. I'm not actually in the military, but my grandfather was a doctor in the Navy and apparently we've been (literally) grandfathered in for perpetuity. The card has raised eyebrows in places I would not have imagined it would be noticed.
I think the real test will be how many people pay the renewal fee. You can get 2% cards for cheaper/free so in all but the most frequent travelers keeping it for a second year is more about the status symbol than the benefits.
A CSR returns 4.5% on travel/dining, if you only redeem on travel through the Chase portal, which is not a ripoff based on when I've checked and what I've read (you can get even better effective rates if you transfer miles to airlines strategically).
That means if you spend > $6000/yr on travel/dining (which includes uber/lyft/taxis and hotels/airbnbs besides the usual), you're going to come out ahead of the $150 fee ($450 fee - $300 travel credit) as compared to a no-fee 2% cash back card. The $300 travel credit won't count, so change that $6k to $6.3k. This is well within reason for a lot of white collar folks.
The Amex Platinum Card for Schwab [1] returns 6.25% cash[2] for airfare from airlines & amextravel purchases. If you can get the 400 of value from the travel & Uber credits, you break even with $2400 of spending in the 5x point categories and quickly do better than a no fee 2% cash back card.
---
CSR is great if you can redeem through their portal. I mostly travel in Asia and Europe where discount airlines don't seem to be in either chase or Amex's travel portals. The traditional carrier flights they offer are usually 2-3x more expensive than the AirAsias of the world.
Discount airlines typically don't appear in travel portals as one of the ways low-cost carriers try to be low cost is by minimising travel agent commissions.
Freedom Unlimited + Reserve nets 2.25% cash back on everything and 4.5% on travel and dining, and the annual fee nets out to $150 once you take the travel credit into account. Used properly, it's probably the most rewarding card/combo out there.
I've been using Fidelity's 2% back AmEx since forever. I was happy when they changed it to Visa and kept the same rate. But for that extra .25% I might have to switch.
Edit: reading more, it looks like that rate is only for purchasing travel through their site. Not worth it.
It is, yes, only when used for travel via their portal. Totally possible it's not worth it for you, but I certainly get by :) Being able to redeem as 2.25% cash if I want or 1.5X as airline miles is a ton of flexibility. Means if I want to fly Korean First to Asia, its 80K miles one-way. If I find a cheap flight, it's often better to redeem as cash. I fly a lot though.
The usual cash-back card I point people to is the Citi Double Cash 2% flat with no annual fee -- didn't realize the Fidelity went Visa!
Yep, double cash for most things, chase sapphire for travel and food things. The double cash gets stolen every couple of months, tons of skimmers while traveling or in gas station pumps. I even had someone steal a new card from my mailbox at an apartment complex and use it to get $60 worth of McDonalds then a few hundred worth of Diesel jeans. It got flagged for the McDonalds (I almost never eat fast food), I got alerted via text, and had it cancelled + a new card overnighted to me. My most recent compromise was a $0.15 charge in Capetown followed by half a dozen transactions with TopHatter which appears to be a sleazy auction site for dollar-store quality crap and not-so-hot fraud detection. I do hate that they must read the script to me each and every time it gets compromised, since it's so routine for me at this point...it's like being forced to listen to an Indian person (no offense, but their call centers / call center subcontractors are there) read you the EULA for software. It'd be nice if they saw that since you've already had your card stolen half a dozen times in the past year and a half, they can skip the formalities.
I have my cards email me every transaction so that I can spot these events quickly. Ironically, after I set that up, my number hasn't been stolen. It had been stolen 4 times previously. My favorite was when the fraud agent asked me, "Did you purchase 150 lbs of concrete in Mexico yesterday?" Just after he had verified I was traveling somewhere else.
I get push notifications from the Chase app every time my card is used. Just last night I caught a fradulent transaction that way...the merchant name was "ONLINE SHOP ORDER", which was interesting since it that name is seemingly a merchant account set up explicitly to mask fraudulent transactions. Having push notifications is also a great way to remember to cancel unused recurring subscriptions.
I'm always super impressed with the speed that the notifications come through when I'm checking out somewhere. I'll get a notification on my phone over a flaky 4G connection before the CC reader pops up the 'Approved' screen. Lot of computers talking to each other to make that happen...
Similary when my card was canceled last night after the fradulent transaction I got a notification before I even got off the phone with the fraud agent that the replacement cars number had been added to my Apple Pay. Pretty cool!
Throw in a regular Freedom and an Ink Cash, gift cards, etc. and you can do even better, though at some point keeping track of it all starts having its own cost.
There are also PQD waivers for United (sorry :-)) for spend on Chase's co-branded cards. I get a United Club membership anyway so that card works for me. My travel patterns are such that I get decent status on qualifying miles but dollars are iffy.
So if you earn 1.5 UR per dollar with the Freedom Unlimited then use their Combine Points feature to move it to the Sapphire Reserve's UR balance, each one becomes worth 1.5c towards travel, netting 2.25% :) or transferable to Korean, Singapore, United, BA, Hyatt or a couple of less interesting other options.
In my yuppie group of friends, a CSR is a pretty strong wealth signal. we're probably just overly competitive and shallow, but some people definitely pay attention
I feel people are a bit out of touch with how easy it is to get these "exclusive" credit cards if you just have a good credit score. The income is helpful but unnecessary for essentially everything but a Centurion.
Exactly. Amex get their income from a cut on purchases, and that cut is larger than any other provider. They then take this money and spend it on advertising to try and convince stupid people they are joining some exclusive "club".
(1) Lost US Airways lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).
(2) Lost Continental as a transfer partner for MR (merger).
(3) Lost Continental lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).
(4) Lost Delta lounge guest access.
(5) Saw serious devaluations in Aeroplan for MR.
(6) Saw serious devaluations in Delta for MR (no more 50% transfer bonuses).
(7) Saw serious devaluations in BA for MR (transfer 1:1 with 50% bonuses to 1:0.8 with occasional bonuses).
(8) No more points lending (you used to be able to transfer more than you had if you earned them back within a year, otherwise they'd bill you).
(9) Lost JetBlue co-brand card.
(10) Lost Costco co-brand card.
(11) Saw Plenti flop, and I haven't really heard much of Bluebird.
A few years ago, you needed 120,000 Amex points for a first-class round-the-world flight with no fuel surcharges and 2 stopovers in addition to your destination. That price has pretty much doubled in points and gone up 100x in cash. It's just not as rewarding as it used to be.
On the other hand, Chase jumped in, offered lower-fee cards ($95 for Preferred vs $175 for Amex PRG) with more valuable transfer partners -- especially before the United devaluation -- and large signup bonuses. They were friendlier, less stodgy and offered a better value proposition overall in 2011 with the Sapphire Preferred. Then they upped the stakes with the Reserve.
It took some time to find out on Google , but I guess MR stands for Membership Rewards. Unless you're referring to the Mongolian airline, the Dutch travel agency or the Belgian political party using the same abbreviation.
Probably "mileage redemption", as in either exchanging points from the card for frequent-flyer miles to redeem for flights, or directly redeeming the points for flights through whatever interface it provides.
This isn't really a last 5 years thing, but there also used to be something said for there being AMEX offices in major cities, being able to get free travelers' checks, cash personal checks, etc. Those things largely don't matter any longer.
I'm executor for my aunt. Found $800 in travelers' checks that her husband had bought 31 years ago. Advice on AmEx site is to go to a bank that sells travelers' checks. I can only find a few within 25 miles of Los Angeles, none very close to where my aunt lived.
When we traveled to Italy 12 years ago, we took travelers' checks. The local banks would shake their heads and point at the ATM. As you say, getting free travelers' checks don't matter if you can't cash them.
It used to be standard advice to put some travelers' checks in your sock drawer (or wherever) to have some emergency money on hand that wasn't easily stolen. I calculated how much money was lost by having travelers checks for 31 years instead of sitting in a bank and it was about $3000 at 5%. Hard to find in these times but not until recently.
I have a few old ones tucked into my travel folder where I keep spare credit cards, emergency cash, etc. I really need to take them into the bank and cash them one of these days.
also, i remember amex had exclusive deals with a few ultra high end retailers, Nieman Marcus, for one, and those are out--eg, so up until about 10 years ago, that was the only credit card accepted at NM.
Fair question, actually. They're rather similar, but if you're not flying neither is probably right. If you want a daily driver and no interest in travel rewards, check out the Citi Double Cash. 2% flat cash back on everything, no annual fee, but watch the forex fees -- not that you'll pay them often if you don't fly :)
My current setup is the Chase Amazon card for everything Amazon, Amex Blue cash back card for everything else, and a CapOne Venture card for merchants who do not take Amex.
I don't fly a lot, and cash back is just simpler even though it is not as min/max as getting miles. I use the little bit of Venture redemptions paying for Uber/Lyfts.
I've looked at the higher end paid for cards, but I might only fly 4x year, and they have not really seemed worth it.
Assuming you have the Blue that costs money, then the Amazon cards should be used at restaurants and drug stores for the 2%, but the Amex should be used at gas stations and department stores for the 3% and of course grocery stores at 6%. For the stuff that doesn't fall into those categories though, it's all 1% so either work.
This article focuses on the emotional attachment to a card, but that's not the driver. It just comes out that way. I spend a lot of time on FlyerTalk where the decline of Amex has been discussed over and over. There were mistakes made on the revenue side, and on the rewards side. Three events basically tilted the entire balance away from Amex:
1. Failed negotiation with CostCo and losing the CostCo credit business.
2. The United and Continental merger that signed the death of the United / Amex relationship as all of that credit business moved to Chase and United was removed as a redemption partner, which was the number one membership rewards partner by a long-shot.
3. The loss of JetBlue as a partner that demotivated Amex in the affluent NYC credit theatre.
There were many other mistakes made, but those three had a compounding effect on Amex's negotiating leverage to earn transactions, carry cards, and to offer valuable rewards that drive member sentiment.
That's it. Three moves, each on their own survivable, but in concert essentially destroyed a well-balanced equation.
The question is, how will they catapult out of this?
$80 / year is a terrible credit card reward compared to almost all other credit cards. It would have to be free Amazon Prime + 5% back on all Amazon purchases + $500 sign up bonus.
The Chase Amazon card already gives you 5% back at Amazon Prime members with no annual fee. A card offering that plus Prime would almost certainly have an annual fee and the $500 bonus would simply be setting the card issuer up for massive turnover.
True, but I was searching for something comparable to the Costco deal they used to have. That perk was also pretty cheap (Isn't Costco membership in the same ballpark?)
But yeah, throw some extra points/cash back in there as well. I'd go for that in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of the demographic they're currently losing.
If I'm not mistaken, the Costco deal was a free membership and it was the only CC Costco would accept - any other payment had to be via debit card. That bit of arm-twisting was valuable.
It would have to provide a lot more than that. I get several hundred dollars per year of value from the sign up bonus + recurring rewards on my Chase card, enough that I'm willing to eat the $450/year fee. I essentially fly for free all year because of the points. $99/year in benefits isn't enough to get me to switch.
The Synchrony Bank store card is hands-down the shittiest card product I've ever used from any bank. I signed up for it and they screwed up my ACH multiple times, then closed my account, because they were running auto-debit ACH from a different address than command-debit ACH, and had no one who would explain this. (They bought something formerly used by Walmart, so when I saw a large Walmart debit I blocked it, as I never use my checking account there...)
In Q4 2016 (I think) DiscoverIT was 5% on Amazon purchases, which is equally good, but then the Chase Prime Visa also became 5%, so there's no advantage to the Synchrony card whatsoever.
Amex had that with Costco, until they didn't. I don't know when the Chase agreement expires, but when it does, Amex could learn from their previous losses and aggressively steal that business away from Chase.
I'm not saying that's the only perk. The parent comment was describing all the relationships Amex lost that combined to hurt their membership base. The Costco one could be replaced with a similar setup through Amazon.
They should be pushing their Blue Cash Preferred Card. For $75 a year, you get 6% cash back on groceries and 3% back on gas. You also get 1% on everything else. Right now it is just my husband and I and we easily get more than $75 in rewards. I can only imagine if you add kids to the mix. 6% is a huge amount of money when talking about groceries. We also use the AmEx to purchase anything that is worth having a warranty for because the AmEx extends the manufacturer's warranty.
The Blue Cash Preferred is at a $95 annual fee right now.
I have the original Blue Cash, that I've refused to trade in because the new versions are no where close. The rules are a little wonky... 1% cash back on groceries, gas, and drug stores until you spend $6500, then 5% back after that. Other purchases are .5% / 1%. All with no annual fee.
The 6% cash back from grocery stores is nice. You can buy Amazon (and many other) gift cards at my grocery store and they all result in 6% back as well.
One thing that bothers me is AMEX says you don't get the cash back if you use a digital wallet. So, does that mean Apple Pay? Why would they add that restriction?
This article doesn't say anything about using your card abroad or how widely accepted Amex is. I have an Amex and use it for all my subscriptions, and spending when I'm in the US. In the rare chance that I can't use Amex, I have capital one venture.
When I use Amex, almost universally people comment that my card looks cool and take it and play with it. But whenever I recommend Amex to someone, it is always met with "but I won't be able to use it everywhere", generally they are talking about the US, but the same sentiment applies abroad also.
Its true, when I am outside the US, I can't use Amex, I have to use my Venture card. How much of the drop can be attributed to the fact that now say in a country like Brazil, even people selling packs of gum from mobile tables accept MC and Visa? How many more millennials travel abroad? How many want to use the same card in whatever country the find themselves in and not have to worry?
Similarly, for Amex in the UK: you can use your card abroad, but they charge you 3% (!) on top of their own exchange rate - even for USD transactions.
What's worse - if your foreign transaction is in any other currency than USD, they convert twice: once from the original currency into USD, and then again from USD into GBP. They only charge you 3% once, but you do suffer from their internal, presumably self-serving exchange rates twice.
This is in an environment where there are many UK credit cards offering fee-free foreign transactions at the "true" (no spread) exchange rate, and many more offering true exchange rate + less than 1%.
The Amex offering is laughably poor in comparison.
The best deal I've found for international use is Schwab. I forget the purchasing terms, but for ATM access they don't charge a currency conversion fee, and they even reimburse you the mandatory 1% fee.
They are trying to improve this in France. I've met quite a few shops who started to accept amex because Amex has started offering very low transaction fees for shops with small volume.
I think it's actually smart, they're not likely to earn much money from those shops anyway and it's a good way to increase their footprint (before that they were only accepted in department stores and supermarkets basically).
In Brazil, I've only found a few places that don't take American Express. Even places that don't show the logo, or they don't know if they do/do not, have accepted it. I did find a few places that only took local cards or foreign debit cards, but not many.
Barclays is quietly working that segment of the market. They are (or were last I checked) the only issuer providing cards to people in the US which actually support chip and PIN (instead of only doing chip and signature).
Why is the PIN so important? It only protects a very narrow scenario: your card has been physically stolen, you haven't noticed yet, and the thieves try to use it at a physical location which verifies the chip (some places still let you swipe...). The chip itself protects against cloning and if you've notified the issuer that the card is lost/stolen they'll cancel the card number so it will become worthless.
I have yet to find an issuer on Visa/MC that can even remotely touch Amex's customer service.
I've tried. Everyone else is simply anti-consumer, to the point of being nearly fraudulent. Amex on the other hand generally "just works" how you would expect when something comes up or when you need to do something.
I agree - if there were never any problems ever, who cares. Go with the cheapest zero fee Visa and be happy.
The experiences I've had recently with multiple Visa issuers have led me to cancel those cards, and now I keep exactly one Amex as my primary, and a backup Visa just in case it's not accepted somewhere. I tend to avoid those businesses if possible.
Amex is so far and away better on their customer protection/service it's not even really a competition. They are playing a different ballgame.
Ignoring chargebacks, anti-consumer practices to collect additional fees, etc. - just something as simple as losing a credit card and needing a replacement sent is eye opening. A typical Visa/MC (even a so called premium card) will take a week. If you're lucky. Good luck if you happen to be traveling, have fun dealing with a 90 minute phone call involving an escalation to a manager. Amex will overnight you a new card to a random third world country with a 5 minute phone call.
It's stuff like that which keeps me firmly in the Amex fold. If/when they start screwing that part of their offering up, I'll switch instantly. So far their competition has a long way to come. The last two credit cards I've signed up for (for promotions) I've canceled within 60 days due to horrific anti-consumer - and in my opinion - entirely fraudulent business practices. I refuse to do business with folks who actively are trying to rip me off.
For people who are willing to jump through hoops and make a credit card issuer's problem theirs - amex is not the choice for you. For folks who think their bank should work on their behalf and not be something I have to set a calendar reminder for in order to remember stuff? Amex is the choice.
I actually get angry thinking of my last Visa experience (Google Credit) - it was so anti-consumer I can't even believe it's legal.
> A typical Visa/MC (even a so called premium card) will take a week. If you're lucky. Good luck if you happen to be traveling, have fun dealing with a 90 minute phone call involving an escalation to a manager. Amex will overnight you a new card to a random third world country with a 5 minute phone call.
Counterpoint: I've had a Citi Premier Mastercard since 2008 and have lost it several times over that period. Every single time I call the conversation is sub-5 minutes and I ALWAYS have a new card in hand within 24 hours, including the time my wallet was stolen in London.
I keep two credit cards, the primary being an Amex. I do that because I like Amex's buyer protection, and their support has been between acceptable and impressive the few times I've had to deal with them. I keep a backup for when I can't use the Amex, similar to the above poster.
I do find it slightly annoying that I have to have a backup, but it's fairly rare that I need it, and the tradeoff is worth it for me.
I find it strange people are down voting what seems like an honest question about a pretty utilitarian matter.
This article seems delusional, either on the part of Amex or the reporter.
Chase isn't winning because Amex is too snobby or due to "cachet." They're winning because the Platinum rewards are inferior to the CSR, even after the recent updates. In fact, Amex did probably the stupidest thing possible by increasing the annual fee precisely when they're under threat.
As much as I like the Platinum, it's hard for me to justify keeping it this year when the CSR is so rewarding. And that has nothing to do with wanting to avoid appearing snobby (after all, I do love the metal CSR).
It's always a bit disconcerting to find out that a decision I thought I made independently is actually part of some larger overall trend. This happens a lot to me.
For a decade before last year, I used an Amex card exclusively. Then I switched to a Sapphire card for the great signing bonus and better rewards. (It's also metal, and as much as I'd like to pretend that doesn't sway me, it does.) Now I find out that this is a "thing" and that I'm just another part of the overall trend.
Oh well. If Amex successfully counters this move, I'll happily return. Their customer service has been spectacular the few times I needed them.
Yeah, I know. But something inside me feels "tricked" when the one independent thing I did is "really" part of a herd changing direction.
I quit smoking a little over a year ago. Switched to vaping. Apparently 2016 was the year that everybody did that. I thought I was just making the choice to live a little healthier, but it turns out the invisible hand of Trendy Stuff swept me up. :)
It happens in science and in my field (infosec) too. Two researchers will independently come up with the same idea. You just have similar information to everyone else.
I generally keep at least one miles/points-earning card around, because every place I've lived for the past half-decade has allowed me to pay my rent with a credit card (I'm going to spend that money anyway, why not put it on the card and pay it off the next day so I get something out of it?).
None of the places I've lived have accepted American Express, so all branded/points-earning Amex cards are basically useless to me.
What sorts of places have you lived in? I've lived in eight different places since I moved out of my dad's house, and only one has allowed me to play with credit card (with an exorbitant fee)
I currently live in the SF Bay area, but prior to that I was living in good old Lawrence, Kansas, which is not exactly a hotbed of futuristic Silicon-Valley-only tech, and my apartment there allowed me to use a credit card.
I used to live in a place where my rent -- for a nice apartment -- was about $1k/month. That's 12,000 points a year from putting rent on the card, and there are airlines where that's right around the lower bound of redeeming a flight.
If your rent is higher than that, of course, it becomes a better deal.
The way this all works is the merchant pays a fee to process you CC and the bank splits that fee with you. Gas stations are somewhat smart about this in that they charge you more when using a card since they're paying more for the transaction. However, it's annoying to consumers to charge a higher price depending on payment method. Not sure why gas stations are the only ones getting away with it.
Strange, every apartment I've lived in required checks or ACH. One missed payment and they require a cashier's check for that month + the next month. They also required a cashiers check for the deposit.
Chase's marketing team hit it out of the park with the Sapphire Preferred (and now Reserve.)
This is going to sound stupid, but the Preferred/Reserve lines are fun to use. They have a metal core which makes the card feel heavy. Cashiers would always comment on the card's weight. It feels satisfying when you drop it on the table at a restaurant. The perks aren't the best in the industry, but they're good enough, and the incredible amount of points you got when you switched over lowered the barrier to entry enough to make the move.
Without a doubt it's the "coolest" card in my wallet, and probably will be until I get an Amex Black (yeah, right.)
A card itself is a commodity item. Why is it tied to the credit agreement? Why does this factor in at all? Why can you not make your own card + register the key of the chip inside the card with the credit provider?
More than two decades ago, I lost my Amex card (or perhaps it was stolen) in Chiang Mai, Thailand. I dialed the call-collect phone number on the back of a traveling companion's card, and explained everything to an Amex representative.
The next day they had a replacement card waiting for me at the hotel lobby. I still don't know how they pulled it off.
In that instant, I became a lifetime customer. AFAIK, no other credit card firm offers the same level and quality of service.
Chase should be able to do that kind of card replacement too.
Me, I cancelled my AmEx the second time they flagged my card-present $30 grocery store transaction as fraud. There was no other hint of fraud on the account, but my buying groceries 100 miles from my home (in California) was enough to trip their algorithm.
I could forgive the false positive, but AmEx's customer experience here is terrible. They declined the transaction and then called my call phone from an unrecognized caller ID. The call came from an Indian call center with very poorly trained staff reading a script at me to verify I had the card.
So here I am in a stressful situation: can't buy my groceries, embarrassed my card is declined. And they decide that's the time to outsource to some lowest-bidder call center. Talk about contempt for the customer.
Fraud declines can be really random. I put a lot of travel on my cards and in the last couple of years I had a decline at a grocery store while traveling and a decline at a gas station convenience store. Fortunately, someone else was with me for one of those and the amount was piddling with the second.
I now always carry a spare card from a different bank although I'm not certain I wouldn't have issues if I suddenly started putting big charges on a card I rarely use.
I used to have an Amex Gold card, was in Brazil when they called to let me know they'd seen some dodgy transactions (someone buying stuff in Sweden on my card - obviously Volvo, IKEA and something else ;) about $5-700 worth at each place). I was grateful they noticed and blocked the card.
I asked about the guarantee to get me a new card within 24 hours, as I was in some far away-ish vacation town I was ok with them getting it to my hotel when I would return to Rio two days later. Never received a replacement.
I got it back home in Sweden when I returned. Never bothered with them since.
> I refuse to use Chase anything because of how poorly they treat their lower income customers (staging transactions to maximize overdraft fees, etc.)
Yep, a true pain to explain to someone how pulling that stunt is legal. About the same fun as banks cashing checks in order to maximize overdraft fees.
AMEX also does the Bluebird cards which are pretty nice for poor folks since you can do direct deposit to the card itself and it has no charge refilling at Walmart.
I've got both cards and have traveled all over the world with them. I'm not giving up my Amex ever. They've saved my ass in big and small ways so many times and I just don't trust Chase to do the same.
I do love the way the CSR looks and feels though, and it's essential to have a Visa or MasterCard when traveling as so many places only accept those two.
Chase is doing great, I will keep both for the foreseeable future. It's going to take time to completely steal me from Amex though, they've been doing right by me for more than 10 years.
This reminds me of my friends who met an elderly retired couple on a cruise. They were Amex black card holders, and said that the biggest reason they carried it was that if something happened to them medically (the husband was a retired physician to boot), Amex would come through and get them to the best hospital in whatever part of the world they'd be in.
That kind of support and service can be a huge difference maker to people who have experienced or can perceive such niche cases.
Super interesting, sure, but the Centurion card ("black card") is much more elite - minimum spend, $7,500 just to get the card, etc. Great offering from Amex but a different league than the middle class cards like Chase Sapphire, Amex Platinum, etc.
They absolutely will. I have more than one service I can lean on for finding the doctor and getting help translating. Only Amex does all that and will also convince the hospital to accept my card as payment security instead of me needing to bring 20x the cost of service in cash as a deposit. I've visited hospitals in several countries for different reasons, and Amex has consistently been there for me.
Isn't it generally best get get money from an ATM using a debit card? (Money withdrawal being charged as an immediate cash advance with a high interest rate)
I spent five minutes reading the article, another several minutes to contemplate if I've been pranked by the "new york times", then spent another minute feeling... lost.
The auspicious "New York Times", to me, would have a standard to present more inquisitive spins into story like this. What a shame. I was waiting for the punchline then realized at the end that the punch was thrown, just never registered.
To summarize this article, it starts off with a claim that Amex executives are worried that Chase is taking more "young professionals". Then the article discusses why that happens in this paragraph:
> A credit card, mystifyingly, had suddenly become cool. And what really got under Amex executives’ skin was that Chase was succeeding by, essentially, copying the American Express playbook and chasing the same up-and-coming elites who had traditionally joined Amex’s ranks.
"mystifyingly" being the key word here. There is no investigation, no speculation, no data gathering, no journalism. There is a claim that a Chase card "seems to be gaining preference" in the young professionals crowd. Why is this a thing? Why is Chase being preferred over Amex? Is Chase even actually being preferred over Amex? Is there a poll, at least?
The only paragraph that attempts to answer any of the questions is this disjointed one in the middle of rambles:
> “The message we send is, this isn’t your father’s credit card,” said Pam Codispoti, who created the Chase Sapphire Reserve after 18 years at Amex. “For millennials, travel might mean taking an Uber to a hole-in-the-wall restaurant in Chinatown, and then riding the subway to karaoke, and then catching a taxi home. So we’re going to give you accelerated travel points on all that. This is a card for accumulating experiences.”
Other than that, there's no presentation of facts, but a rambling of speculations and hearsay. I feel as if I've been served an advertisement for Chase on thin veil. Do I have to start vetting articles from the "New York Times" for quality too?
You should absolutely vet NYT articles for quality. I canceled my subscription to NYT because they are not putting out journalism worth paying $35 a month for.
I used to have an Amex card because of Costco's exclusivity deal with them. I only used it to shop at Costco because many other places didn't accept Amex and my daily driver card has better benefits. I didn't feel like applying for another credit card when the Costco deal ended, so it just ended up being turned into a Citi Visa that I pretty much never use.
I think you can still use something of a hack to shop at Costco and rack up AmEx rewards. You can purchase gift cards online with pretty much any credit card and then use the gift cards in the warehouse.
A co-worker did that with his rewards Visa for a long time when AmEx was the only credit card accepted in Costco warehouses.
It details the efforts of someone who managed to get a Sapphire Reserve card after dressing up as a Sapphire Reserve card for Halloween and sending a photo of it to Chase:
> “I’m kind of a credit-card—maybe junkie is not the right word—but I’m a credit-card enthusiast,” says Mary Xu, a San Francisco cybersecurity manager. In pursuit of points, she spends more than $1,000 a year on annual fees for high-end cards.
> She was so disappointed to be rejected for the Sapphire Reserve last October that she spent hours constructing a costume of the card out of cardboard. She sent the bank a photo of herself dressed up, hoping for a second chance. She was approved about three months later.
There's a good discussion about this on the churning subreddit[1].
One of my hobbies has been maximizing rewards over the last few years. I've had the Amex Gold, but Platinum rewards have never looked good enough to justify it for me. I'll keep the CSR until something better comes along, but it's easily the best card I've had.
Part of Amex's problem is the ease of access to information about which cards are actually good. They can't rely on image anymore. I don't buy into the article's argument about the CSR making the purchaser "interesting" at all.
Amex has two great perks that justifies the cost for me:
- Excellent travel insurance
- 15-20% discount on car rentals with Hertz and Avis, priority service including complimentary upgrades, and no extra fees for super cover
Additionally their fraud detection and customer service is great. If my card is stolen or there are unauthorized transactions, they'll sort it out immediately and get Anne's card in your hands within the day. As a European who travels a lot in Europe and across the Atlantic, there's no other card that offers the same.
Then there's all the rest, VIP access, airport lounges, concierge service etc. Those are nice extras.
I pay everything on my Amex. Some smaller shops don't take Amex, but most places I've been seem to accept it. The few times I have to fall back to a Visa or MC I struggle to recall the pin.
If you decline the car rental company's insurance and charge the rental fee to your Amex, then Amex has a free car rental insurance plan. It's essentially secondary to any other coverage you carry, so if you wreck a rental car and already carry collision insurance, then it hits your coverage first and the Amex plan just pays your deductible.
They've also got an opt-in plan where any time you rent a car with your card they charge you a $25 flat free, and then that buys you coverage that runs primary so you don't have to claim against your own car insurance at all.
Yes, this is what I meant by super cover. Essentially you just rent without any additional coverage and Amex will cover anything not covered by the rental agency's insurance. This saves a good $20/day at least, meaning if you rent cars for just a few weeks per year the fee will be worth it, when considering the discount as well. I've racked up about 7-8 weeks of car rental so far since New Years, and thanks to Amex I saved a bunch of money on it, probably more than the fee.
Another good feature is I've sometimes had to return the cars in different cities, and every time they waived the fee because of the preferred status as a card carrying member. These things add up for sure.
As far as I know, the insurance also works with any agency, so not just Avis and Hertz, so there's money to save even if you go for a more "fun" agency like Sixt, with nicer cars.
Disclaimer: You'll want to verify all this with Amex though, but this is what I've been told and what I've read in the ToS.
That's good to know, thanks! Although I wonder if that's universal, because the definition of truck is probably different in different countries. Care to share more of your experience?
I don't know what the perception is today, but Amex used to be known for outstanding (like, truly outstanding) customer service. I had a regular Amex and then a gold in the mid 2000s and I found that was no longer the case. They also used to stand apart from other credit cards, much more like old-school bankers used to be. When I was using them they started to act more and more like regular credit card companies. There was also an ownership change at some point iirc. I think they just lost their way, and along with it their differentiating value.
I've had nothing but outstanding experiences with American Express customer service, even in the past few years. Miles ahead of what I've experienced with Chase and other issuers.
I don't doubt it. They always treated me well on the phone, but when I needed them to actually fix a problem they fell on their face and thew up their hands like they were powerless. I ended up having to solve it myself which blew the whole point of using them. I may be an outlier.
Amex CS has gotten a lot weaker in the past few years; it got moved overseas.
Closing the actual physical Amex offices also was a big step down (I've been a member since 97).
I would not want to bet on Amex at this point -- losing Costco, competition from Chase, and now Citi pushing to expand their own cards.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a lower-merchant-fees challenger now that everyone has a mobile phone; you could probably do something which presents at POSes as a credit card, handles a bunch of auth back through the customer's own mobile phone connection (but encrypted/authenticated), presenting a time of use credential which is matched by the POS while appearing as a regular credit card. Building something like that which costs the merchant <1%, and maybe which provides customers with a lot more purchasing/receipt info (for company purchasing cards).
There has been no actual benefit to consumers to use Apple Pay.
If Goldman Sachs (or Apple) offered a 5% return to purchases using Apply Pay, I'd use it.
If I could give out purchasing "cards" to all my team which relied on Apple Pay but brought back realtime stats, that'd be a win too (especially if it did things like track capital purchases, warranties, management, etc.)
I think something has changed. I had to do a chargeback recently for a $5 cab ride for which I was charged over $50. In previous years something this small would have been dealt with immediately. Now, I had to speak with someone on the phone and it did not hit final resolution for a few weeks.
It was still an okay experience but not what it used to be.
The new Amex cash card is pretty solid with 6% back on groceries and 3% back on gas and department stores (and 10% on restaurants for 6 months), but those aren't exactly prestige categories. I use that for everyday spending and the sapphire card for travel.
I've been rocking the same combo (Amex Blue Cash Preferred + Chase Sapphire Reserve) for a while now and I still marvel at how they compliment one another for max rewards across Groceries/Gas + Travel/Dining. The only category I have left would be Amazon really but I still buy 500 dollar Amazon gift cards at supermarkets rather get the Amazon store card to get total rewards coverage for my needs.
This is relevant to a decision I made today. I was deciding which travel card to get between the amex platinum and the chase sapphire reserve, and I went with the sapphire reserve. I felt the amex's perks were catered more towards business travelers doing expensive things, while the chase card was more focused on people who travel for fun. However, I do not understand why people think the sapphire reserve is not a snobbish card like amex: it has a $450 a year fee, which is almost as much as the amex platinum's $550 fee, is ~metal~, and is trying to capture the same group of people.
$450 yearly fee with $300 travel credit. This includes Uber/Lyft and public transportation. It's basically $150/yr, unless you don't use any of the $300 travel credit.
True, but you can't say that it doesn't have a $450 fee, the amex has $200 for travel expenses and $200 for uber but that doesn't mean it has a $150 fee either. The fee is a large upfront cost for most people.
As an economy traveller, I didn't realize how much international trips were if I used a lounge for hops. The CSR comes with free access to a large number of airport lounges, which was a benefit I was surprised I used.
So far, the Priority Pass card I got with my CSR has been completely useless. In San Francisco I was refused entry at the partner lounge because it was at capacity and Priority Pass holders are clearly the lowest concern; at the Reykjavik stopover there was no partner lounge at all; and in Paris the lounge was a 10 minute walk + 1 security checkpoint away from my gate.
I looked it up, and seems the lounge in SFO is the KLM/AF one. Which is weird because I've been in there at a "peak" time (I was on the daily KLM to AMS) and it didn't seem particularly crowded.
Though in general lounge benefits -- unless you're getting a dedicated lounge operated by the program giving you access -- are not something worth going for. Back when I had status on American Airlines, I and many other people learned how worthless the alliance-partner lounge benefits can be: in theory, as an AA Executive Platinum, I'd have access to a rather nice British Airways lounge when connecting to an AA transatlantic flight in Philadelphia, but BA's policy was basically "all times are peak times (so we can turn you away), if there's anyone in here it's at capacity (so we can turn you away), and if there's nobody in here we'll close (so we can turn you away)".
I looked at the Priority Pass offering and did sign up but it didn't seem very useful. I already have United Club (and, by extension, Star Alliance--which I've never had trouble getting access to) and Priority Pass doesn't really buy me anything.
Amex lounge benefits are now the same as Chase, both offer a Priority Pass Select, and now AFAIK offer the same number of guests. Amex also offers access to Amex Centurion lounges which are among the better domestic lounges.
You can still get into a Delta lounge as an Amex cardholder, but Delta has been tightening up its lounge access generally for a while. The biggest change was introducing two-tier membership; Amex cardholders, and even Delta's own top-level frequent flyers, now only get the base lounge membership (or equivalent). This shows up in things like being charged $29/person to bring guests with you, where previously you got two guests for free.
Honestly they're really only valuable if your home airport has a Centurion lounge. As much as I love Centurion lounges (and have access to them), I find myself in PP far more frequently.
Yeah, and if they're in the terminal you frequent too >.< At SFO, only T-I/T-3 (where the Centurion is) and T1-/T2 are connected airside. That said, I used to route everywhere via DFW so I could break the journey up and chill at the D17 lounge.
The Amex one is $550 - $200 for Uber - $200 in airline incidentals which often includes more than you think, check FlyerTalk. Net fee is the same if you do the legwork on Amex.
at one point you could buy delta gift cards and have it covered under the $200 airline incidental fee. Neeting you 200 off a flight of your choice for `free`.
Delta was always hard because they didn't sell gift cards online -- only at the airport! As far as I know that still works, but as always with this stuff, check the thread on FlyerTalk. United and American sell gift cards online ^_^
I have both, and end up putting 60% of my spend on SPG Amex (Starwood hotels for sure, and then anything generic), 10% (Amazon) on the Amazon Chase Prime Visa (5% back...), 20% (dining and other bonus categories, merchants that don't take amex) on the Chase Sapphire Reserve, and VX on the VX credit card, IHG on IHG card, UA on UA card, etc.
Amex Platinum (MR) has pretty bad values for point redemption -- it's a good card to have for access to lounges and for certain airline tickets, but it's generally not the best return for most purchases. If you're eligible, there's a 2.5% back USAA credit card which is probably the cash-back winner, otherwise SPG seems to win for value, but I've seen some 5-7% return cases for the CSR too (Asian mileage tickets in C or F).
There's also the fact that personal Amex PLT is $550/yr (now), with ~$200/yr in Uber reimbursements spread out over the year and a few other things. The biggest benefit of PLT is the Centurion Lounge, which for US domestic travel is nice if you're in those airports, but for international it's Priority Pass Select on both CSR and PLT. CSR is $450/yr with $300/yr in credit for virtually any travel, so it's net $150/yr. PP Select is worth that alone, and a bunch of other benefits.
I'd drop Amex Platinum if I wanted to drop a card (and I actually just have the OPEN Small Business version; I don't have a personal PLT).
Amex Platinum for the win. Customer service is the best and they make things simple. Have an issue, just give them a call. Don't want to call, website is simple to use. A few years ago my wife and I were in LAX heading to Dublin via London. My wife left her card at home. Oops. Gave them a call. "I see your hotel reservation in Dublin here. A new card will be waiting for you when you arrive." It took all of 4 minutes. 11 hours later show up to the hotel and there is an envelope with a new card for my wife.
Amex flooded their signed-in experience with awful pop-ups: upgrade your card! get a personal loan! It's distracting when, as a user, I'm simply trying to see how much I need to pay.
While by no means is this an apples to apples comparison, but for me this debate has always felt like PC/Mac vs Unix/Linux computers. Yes, the latter may seem/feel cooler, but there is far more support with the former platforms and to me that's always been the motivating factor.
What's the point of an Amex or Sapphire compared to a regular VISA or mastercard?
Disclaimer: I am european, Amex doesn't exist here and you can't pay anything anywhere with that. Never heard about Sapphire before today. Maybe you guys don't have VISA and mastercard on your side of the Atlantic?
Visa and Mastercard are the two biggest card associations in the US (American Express is another card association).
Credit cards are usually issued by a card issuer (bank) and are co-branded with one of the card associations. For example, the Sapphire card is a particular credit card issued by Chase Bank, but is a Visa card.
American Express (Amex) is a little bit weird in that they act as both the issuer and the association for many of their cards. (They are less widely accepted than Visa or Mastercard).
See this American guide to choosing a credit card[1]. Factors that people consider include interest rate, amount of signing bonus, rewards (such as a percentage cash back on each purchase or a percentage of frequent flyer miles on each purchase), yearly fee to use the card, and other services that come with membership such as warranty protection, concierge, discounts, and reserved tickets for events.
What cards are available to a person depends highly on their credit history and income.
In the US, debit cards are ATM cards tied to a bank account that can also be used at a merchant; when the merchant charges the card, money is deducted directly from the bank account. Debit cards usually have no rewards or bonuses associated with them.
Credit cards, on the other hand, are connected to a revolving line of credit. When a merchant charges the card, the issuer is essentially loaning the amount of the charge to the cardholder. (With most credit cards, interest only starts accruing a month after the charge; so people who pay their credit card bills in full are not paying interest.)
In the US, credit cards were introduced as a convenient alternative to checks or cash before debit cards existed. Because of cultural momentum, rewards, and fraud protection, they are as widely used as debit cards, if not more so.
To throw in a bit of confusion, most US debit cards can also be run on credit card networks (mostly Visa or Mastercard, though when I worked as a cashier I saw a few debit cards that used Discover or Amex). The cash is still directly debited from your bank account, but that lets you use the card at places that do accept credit cards but don't belong to any of the dozen different debit networks (STAR, Pulse, CO-OP, etc.). This is also why most US-based online shops prefer credit cards since it's assumed that even if you don't have an actual credit card you have a debit card that can be run as one.
Amex Platinum is a charge card, you must pay them [for the most part] within 30 days, which is quite different from most American credit cards. Not a debit card, but close, outside of pay-over-time benefits.
Amex vs Visa/MC - Amex had historically good flight/miles tie-ins (not as good these days), purchase coverage (returns, car insurance, etc), and concierge service for higher level cards. Odd as it sounds, good reporting on billing, and a requirement to pay off at the end of each month, made it appealing to some businesses for corporate credit cards.
Amex exists in Europe. Maybe not in your country (which you probably mean by "here."). Which country is it?
Either way, I get very good customer support from American Express. Also way higher credit limit and points. My other card is a Citibank card. I never use it because I despise citibank.
Think of Amex like the iPhone/iOS. Only Apple makes it, they deliver the hardware and the software.
Visa/MC are Android. Samsung (Chase), LG (Citi), HTC (BofA) are the hardware makers (card issuers) but they're all delivering the same Android (Visa/MC)
This is just me: I use whatever card I get the most points/benefits from for whatever scenario (travel, food, gas, groceries etc.). I couldn't care less what people think of me when I pull out my card.
It just so happens Chase has been pushing out cards that benefits my lifestyle the most.
I use Amex (Blue Cash Preferred) because I get more cash back. I don't fly often so getting actual cash for the sorts of everyday purchases that dominate my usual spending works well for me. Amex has the best deals for that. The thought that people will choose a card for its signaling to others or, even more ridiculous, for its "feel" and/or look just makes me think people need to step back and reassess how they live.
In the past I have always just used my bank's VISA or Martercard offerings. Last year I joined American Express and I am very happy with the service, not having my card put on hold on long trips, and the web app.
I must admit that this article made me want to also try the Chase Sapphire Reserve but for now I probably won't.
The Amex Platinum paid out over $2k in benefits on my honeymoon alone (2 free nights at a Four Seasons, upgraded rooms, free breakfast for 2 every day, and a resort credit) through the Fine Hotels and Resorts program. I don't always travel like that, but I did then and the yearly fee was more than worth it.
I don't think smart wealthy people pay a dime in service fees. I gave the privilege of collecting transaction fees on my purchases to HSBC, who charges me nothing. It has all the usual premium card perks, though not the latest silly ones. I'll buy my own Uber credits.
If they are wealthy then they likely do not care much about service fees. Meanwhile, smart thrifty people are busy churning credit card bonuses and earning tens of thousands of dollars of free travel subsidized by people like you.
You'd be amazed at the very employed folks that spend time each week learning about credit cards and taking advantage of perks, on top of other things that will allow them to live a lifestyle they want. As a bonus, they get a happy boost when they get a good deal.
This is just paying attention to how you spend your money and being informed about the choices you make. If you are going to get a credit card, you might as well both know what you are getting into and get the best thing for you that you can. Kinda like any other loan contract (after all, credit cards are a short-term loan).
That response is uncalled for. It takes a minimal time debt to secure your financial future and put the "game" in your favor- literally for the cost of making yourself abrest of the rules
I suppose it depends on your definition of "silly" but perks like Amex's Centurion lounges, their concierge program, hotel privileges and (of course) points all outweigh the annual fee for me.
I don't think smart wealthy people pay a dime in service fees.
I suppose it depends on definitions.
I like to think I'm smart, but I'm unsure whether I'd meet your definition of wealthy. However, I do have experience of widely disparate income brackets. Growing up, and during my first few years on my own as an adult, I've had experience of living at or below the poverty line. Now, I'm above the 95th percentile for income in the US.
And the single biggest difference is in how I view tradeoffs of time/effort versus money. For example, I pay my utility bills online with a credit card, and the company charges me a "convenience fee" to do that. When I was younger, I had to count every penny in order to be sure I could make ends meet. Now? Avoiding the fee would be a net loss. I can estimate how many minutes of time it would take me to go dig out my checkbook, write a check, put it in an envelope, find a stamp, go to a mailbox and drop it in. And I can work out, given my salary, how much those minutes are worth: they're worth more than the "convenience fee".
The same is true of many of the "service fees" you're deriding here. I've been in a position where avoiding the fees was of extreme importance, but now I'm in a position where avoiding the fees is literally a money-losing proposition in many cases. The result is that I simply don't bother below a certain dollar amount (and that dollar amount would frighten my younger self).
And to be honest, it's a guilty pleasure to not care about those fees. When I was younger, I didn't realize what a sense of freedom there was in being able to just not care about a few dollars here and there.
I guarantee you lots of smart wealthy people pay plenty of service fees. The dumb thing is not getting a card like the CSR, which easily pays for itself with the signup bonus alone.
I paid for a $50 Costco membership last year and, by using the credit card, got my annual refund check this year of over $400. Didn't pay a penny of interest. Sure seems like a reasonable deal to me.
Smart people wouldn't pay the equivalent of a 2% sales tax to a private corporation in exchange for gimmicks.
The best part is that they realized you can keep the people from finding out that they are being royally ripped off by giving every single 30 card toting person the special feeling that they are the one getting back more than they put in.
Cash itself isn't cost-free for businesses. There's the extra time it takes to count change for customers, the mistakes cashiers make when counting change, there's the time it takes to count the register at the end of a shift, the cost of a safe to hold cash on-site, the risk of counterfeit bills (when I cashiered we'd check $50s and $100s but not $20s and lower since it would take too long), and the cost of transporting the cash to the bank (either in the cost of an armored car or the risk of getting robbed on the way to the bank (which happened at another location while I was cashiering, after that they switched to an armored car)).
Credit card processing fees in the EU are legally capped at <.3%
What you are talking about may be well be true but let's be very clear here that transaction fees above that number are ripoff for gimmicks, not the equivalent of what cash handling would cost.
I've been finding Fewer and fewer places that accept Amex. Sometimes when you hand over an Amex they'll give you a look since you're costing them money. If hey really want to compete they need to lower their merchant rates.
That's kind of a dilemma for them, though. They have been very successful up until now by distinguishing themselves from all the other cards with extra perks and a premium level of service. To pay for those perks and that service, they charge more on the merchant end, with an implied value that their members spend more and are worth courting.
Now that this trend is shifting, merchants aren't seeing the value in accepting an expensive Amex card, and are deciding to go without. But Amex still needs something to separate them from the rest of the pack, lest they become just another commodity card. Once that happens (and the merchant network is slow to adapt), users may just switch to the Visa or MasterCard they're already carrying and forget about Amex altogether.
Here in Australia it's probably 50/50 that any given merchant will accept Amex or Diners, and of those that do, surcharging up to around 3% (though I've seen up to 7% before!) for Amex is quite common, particularly at small businesses.
OTOH, I think small businesses using Square has actually made it a lot less of a problem. The business just takes everything without having to make a decision about it.
Amex travel sight also gives great discounts btw. I once got a fairmont hotel room for the price of a mariotte. And it came with an upgraded room, free breakfast each day, and $100 to spend while at the hotel.
I wish more restaurants would accept Android pay. Right now I only use it in Whole Foods, Trader Joe's and sometimes in some random gas station which comes as a surprise.
* Collect miles? I prefer the Cash back I have with my CC.
* Zero foreign transaction fees is a nice feature.
* Create virtual credit cards is a good feature.
* Travel insurance? Have a better one that any CC could offer me, including air evacuation. Don't need that with my CC and also would be worried about the fine print.
* Lounge Access? If you are a frequent flyer you should have Elite or whatever status anyway, hence I don't need this either. If you really need a card with "lounge access", Diners Club is still available in some European countries for less than US$ 100 per year. (Dines Club Lunge access included)
This. I knew about the Centurion, but I considered their normal cards to be on the same standing as any other. I have their free Everyday card, because they're pretty much the only issues in the UK who still offer cashback.
Amex Corp Card with the name of a well-known and respected company still has some social signaling power, I think. (Like if the card said SpaceX under the user's name)
LOL. Classic. You guys spend all your spare time talking about ad blocking and then what's left is spent on posting blatant advertisements to each other. Hilarious. The only thing missing from this is the 'press release' tag.
I recently attempted to file a return protection claim with my Sapphire Reserve for a display cable that turned out to be faulty. I tried the Visa Infinite site, but Visa as an organization doesn't recognize the United States as a Visa Infinite country yet so I couldn't find anything relevant there.
Then I recalled eclaimsline, which was the site I used a while ago when I had the Sapphire Preferred. It asked for my first/last name and credit card number, and then did not show me the option to file a 'return protection' claim -- just purchase and travel protection.
After that, I went on Chase's website and dug through their documentation and eventually found cardbenefitservices.com, where I was prompted to create a new account and then verify my card number again. Upon filing a claim, I was asked to upload my purchase receipt and credit card statement proving the charge had hit my account. I waited one week and received an email in my spam folder that asked me to mail the item at my own expense to Visa before my claim could finish processing -- mind you, this is for a $20 display cable.
My experience with Amex would have been a three-step online form containing a very small number of fields followed by an immediate credit within 48 hours.