I think it depends on what you want to optimize for. If you want to optimize for individual productivity (and there are no trust issues) then sure, working from home is effective.
However, you may decide that the individual productivity loss of having people work in an office is outweighed by the group productivity and morale gain from having people working together. Here are some reasons from a holistic company perspective for requiring people to work out of the office:
- To more effectively add to the culture of the company.
- To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered.
- To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people.
- To provide mentorship to junior staff.
- To collaborate more effectively.
- To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining.
- To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie.
At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc.
Last point. To anyone who is running a business where your employees can easily choose to work from home for any company in the world, such as software engineers: creating a vibrant company culture is one of the ways in which you can attract and retain team members. Many people like being part of an in-person team and working with each other on a regular basis. But if they're already working from home and rarely seeing their co-workers, what difference does it make if they choose to work for some startup out of SF?
This comment seems like a great microcosm of remote work discussions on Hacker News. You didn't dismiss remote working in a thread about it, but you tried (maybe imperfectly) to suggest times when it would be a good idea to not work remotely. It is not being received well!
In response most commenters are criticizing your point by focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point. One person has even accused you of responding to data with anecdotes and opinion, and another has called your comment BS. Yikes!
Remote work kinda seems like a religious topic now. If you don't provide an airtight, empirical justification for why you're not in favor of remote work, you'll hear from people talking your ear off about how everything you suggested is absolutely possible in a remote setting. "But you can mentor someone remotely!", or "You can collaborate super effectively on a remote team if you just do ..." People are talking about "valid reasons" to be working in an office instead of working remotely, as though remote working needs to be the default consideration. There's a disconnect here.
To conclude this pretentious meta-analysis of mine: I've worked remotely for four or five years now. I like it, it's cool. I can pick up groceries on a Monday when no one is at the store! But companies shouldn't have to defend why they don't support remote work. Universal telecommuting does not need to be the next step in our evolution as a society, and that's okay.
"focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point"
But...it is their point. They are claiming that this laundry list of desirable things are all lost if you support remote work. If they are achievable with remote work the post is irrelevant.
I've worked in offices where there was low morale, zero information sharing, little collaboration, and where the meetings were overwhelmingly just a giant waste of time (in the absence of productivity, meetings become a surrogate where you can point to the `accomplishment' of a meeting). I've worked with a remote team where we had fantastic morale and ridiculously good information sharing and cooperation/coordination. Vice versa. None of these things have to be limited to one choice.
I have to disagree, companies need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. I for one don't even bother looking at job offers from recruiters unless they offer remote. (and I've turned down 30-40k pay increases because of it) why? because I love that I can go swim in a tropical reef this weekend. I can go hop around where my heart takes me and our that creative energy into producing better work during the week. That's not something you'll ever get with vacation days where you plan months ahead at the "permission" of your manager. Everyone should have the option to live like this and if we all refuse via collective bargaining, the big companies will find a way to make it work or die.
It's because us remote-workers can keep the Hacker News tabs open with nobody watching :)
OP is suggesting that the research is invalid because it didn't look at the company level productivity, which is then an excuse to validate his own preference. It's fine to have preferences, everybody does. Making broad claims is generally what gets you in hot water when communicating online.
It would have been more informative to have a specific example. Maybe his point is that it takes a lot of energy for him to figure out how to work together remotely, and that energy is better invested in other things like company culture.
I'm not suggesting that the research is invalid. I have no reason to think it is and in fact I believe - as I stated - that maximizing individual productivity by working from home is effective.
However, I don't believe that every company needs to optimize for individual productivity. It is entirely valid to choose to optimize for other things, such as group productivity, or collaboration, or culture, or really whatever the leadership of the company may want. And as an individual, if you want to work somewhere where individual productivity is maximized, you may certainly choose to work in a place with generous work-from-home policies.
Fifteen minutes ago, I ran into an employee in the kitchen. She looked stressed out. I asked her what was wrong. She told me she wanted to cry. I expressed concern - asked her why - talked her through the situation, found a solution, got her spirits back up, gave her a pat on the shoulder and went on my way.
Could I do this through Slack? Maybe. Would she have reached out to me proactively (instead of me reading her body language) over an electronic medium? Nope, not her - she's too stoic for that. Is it important to me to have this type of high-touch relationship with my employees? Yes, it is.
Now she feels better. I don't have a study that proves that she does, but I don't need one. Is she more productive being here today? Maybe not. Maybe she'd be more productive at home, feeling stressed out and overwhelmed. But I don't care about that - I want her here, feeling supported and encouraged.
The difference is that one side is trying to justify the traditional designed-for-repetitive-manufacturing-work office setup, while the other is trying to justify remote work. One side is content to point out that there are limitations to remote work while almost totally ignoring the limitations to office work, while the other does the inverse.
Both scenarios have advantages, and both scenarios have disadvantages. Whether you are willing to accept certain disadvantages or whether you actually value certain advantages brings in many personal values. Some people are exceptionally invested in office work because they rely upon their gregarious nature to navigate the working world. Some are exceptionally invested in remote work because they are introverted and constantly overruled by more aggressive colleagues (to the detriment of the business, not just themselves).
As many do not understand why offices are constructed the way they are, why companies are centralized entities, why authority is set up as a hierarchy, etc, its difficult to have a competent conversation about the whole thing. It's a big topic. And it's never as simple as 'this thing just saves us money with no drawbacks' or 'this thing just has drawbacks with no material benefit'. Such discussions need to be extensive, nuanced, and detached.
We really are in a position, however, where the differences in productivity and cost are so stark that in order to justify operating expensive centralized offices, they have to show either that it is Impossible to solve problems technologically with remote work, or that there are benefits to the centralization that are extremely valuable. Being able to keep employees, mentioned in the original comment, is an interesting choice. Since the 1980s, employee total dispensability has been top priority in management culture. Moving toward valuing employees and trying to keep them would be a monumental shift in corporate behavior and change all kinds of things all on its own. It might be advisable, though. As I see it, companies started abandoning everything they offered to workers in the 1980s.... right around the time computers came around and started making it practical for workers to leave and compete against the companies while undercutting them hugely just through not having an office to pay for.
> Some people are exceptionally invested in office work because they rely upon their gregarious nature to navigate the working world. Some are exceptionally invested in remote work because they are introverted and constantly overruled by more aggressive colleagues (to the detriment of the business, not just themselves).
really is a gem. I think this really offers clarity into why there are 2 "sides" of this debate.
Personally I think a hybrid approach is the best. I go into the office every morning, get daily meetings done, show face for the boss, have lunch with colleagues, then head home at 1:00 and work remote until 5:00. This allows me to enjoy pretty much every benefit of remote work while still actively contributing to company culture and meeting collaboration which I prefer to completely isolated remote work.
You know all those guys are extremely smart, easy going, are perfect writers, don't get upset when someone misunderstands them, have great personality that is easily conveyed through digital medium, and work with only as smart and awesome people as them.
I agree but I found a mixed strategy worked best. Monday, Friday in the office. Wednesday, Thursday out.
That way I can get a feel for the week on Monday and a retrospective on Friday. Plus Fridays is usually the "Culture Building" day (taking it easy, maybe having a beer in the afternoon, playing some board games). And Monday's are great to catch up with the team after the weekend, bring donuts or some snacks in the morning.
The middle of the week is when I can just work and be productive, as a developer.
Obviously this isn't a strict schedule. It's just definitely easier for me to pump out my own work at my pace, i.e. "Maker's Schedule". And there is absolutely value in being in the office with the team as you stated above.
All of these items can be done remotely. Training/mentoring/team work/stand ups/taking accountibility. Showing clients you have employees working might seem like it will help land some clients if you bring them for a visit but more impressive is having a global remote team you can conference in.
You can't greet the client shake their hand and establish a connection over a video conference nearly as easily as you can in person. As a client I find myself paying attention to the little things. Did they offer coffee or water? Did they open the door? How was the handshake? Did they look trustworthy? If you are remoting in a global team it will be more difficult to provide the experience.
I love the idea that we want to find the smartest people we can find, and hire them. Then tell them they need to drive in to an office every day and fill a seat, on the .01% chance that a client might drop in.
Yeah that makes way more sense than just saying, "hey a client is coming in on Thursday, everyone assume your positions! And for FSM's sake, look like you're collaborating!"
If those items are what you judge the business by how would you rate IBM? Firm handshakes, trustworthy rep (sort of) but they never show you the workers.
I tend to strongly agree. Online meetings for me are direct, initmate and focussed. If we are not prepared yet, we call it off in a minute or two and go do our homework before we decide to meet next time. Productivity, progress made, places where help and collaboriative work is needed, etc are keenly understood in a team.
In thech companies, the only valid reason to be in the office is that often times upper management (those who pay bills/salaries) are restless crowd that can’t sit in one place staring at screen and have grand desire to run around the floor watching people “work”.
The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely.
"The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely"
I disagree mentoring can be as effective when done remotely. The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method.
Furthermore, there are a lot of things that are communicated from senior to junior accidentally, for example, some simple efficient pattern of using the IDE, that would not get communicated in a remote setting. The skill transfer can happen of course any which way, from junior to senior, whatever - but serendipitous pairing is often the initial requirement for this skill transfer to happen.
> The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method.
Research to that effect? I know some people have that, I know I do not. So this absolute statement is already 1 datapoint (me) off. And I know others (who I mentor) who absorb mentoring far better via remote methods. When someone mentors me, I like to chew the information over, research it etc. This goes for most communication for work related matters; I absorb far less if it is told to me face to face than when I read it and have time to thoroughly understand it all.
I agree somewhat with the rest but that again can be done remotely: we develop almost everything while in chat; this acidental transfer is even far better than face to face imho. In chat someone says something like ‘I refactor this to that by hitting ctrl-something’ ; all people see it, not only the accidental junior next to you but all of them. And later this can be searched by others while the verbal incidental comms is gone forever.
I definitely see the need for face to face meetings, but far less than some people here do. And it would be good to have more research done into this matter: I simply do not see many programmers (and I managed 100s over my professional life) being productive in the setting you suggest. Looking and feeling busy yes (so for the bums on seats type of manager), but productive as in just getting stuff done, in my experience no. But that is anecdotal, like your view, so real research and numbers would be good.
"I simply do not see many programmers (and I managed 100s over my professional life) being productive in the setting you suggest. "
To be precise, I did not suggest anything else beyond people being in the same location. I agree the type of bullshit you describe is plausible in a typical corporate scenario.
Given the reproducibility crisis in modern psychology, I would be hard-pressed to claim most thing dealing with humans as better than "anecdotal". I pass along those anecdotes that I find useful. In this context literary references are not "academic proof" but rather probabilistic proof that someone else shares my view and that it might be applicable to third parties as well.
The face-to-face plus whiteboard offering the widest communication channel -anecdote was taken from Alistair Cockburn's "Agile software development" that can be referred from example here (just look at the graph):
I have no idea how true that is in the general sense, but personally I've found this to be true. I've had and continue having tremendously valuable whiteboard impromptu chats that have clarified a complex topic to all stakeholders, helped me to understand some issue and thus saving worktime, or just helped to create a shared symbolic context for a complex technical discussion that otherwise would have been imprecise and hand-wavy. The fact that you can draw boxes, point at them, and perhaps draw arrows between them in a shared physical space with people just somehow seems to make everything easier.
>The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely.
But generally won't be. I work for a tech company, and heck, much of those things don't happen even between people in different sites. The two people in our team who are at a different site usually don't learn a lot of things we do simply because over here we all sit in cubes next to one other. When an emergency occurs, we over here will learn about it through osmosis. This is why we now have meetings dedicated for passdowns to the remote workers just so that they learn what we did here. The problem is that they only learn what we think they need to know.
So while I agree with you that everything can happen remotely (and sometimes does), I think it is more likely to happen in person.
"More than half the volunteer group changed their minds about working from home 100 percent of the time--they felt too much isolation."
And bear in mind that is from the group of people who _volunteered_ to work from home. It's reasonable to presume that a nontrivial number of people chose _not_ to volunteer because they valued in-person interactions.
I've worked fully remote before and I loved it. I got tons of work done, had time and energy for doing stuff after work, and generally flourished.
I'm in an office for a few days a week now with a new company, and I genuinely struggle to get work done on those days. I'm interrupted frequently, office mates love having very loud conversations by my desk, and I can't even fix healthy food on demand and instead drag in a lunch box like a child.
But, and here is the important bit, that's my experience. I have coworkers for whom the inverse is true, who would hate being remote at all, and see the office as the only space they can be productive in.
Just like shoes come in different sizes, so too do office working styles. My overwhelming complaint is that I have to fight tooth and nail to work from home, and I usually get the complaint "Well I don't like working from home, so you shouldn't do it either".
It's like I'm trying to justify being left handed. It's ridiculous. What works for me works for me, and I have direct stats that prove that on every basis (benefit of being a dev, work can be measured).
I work 100% from home. Altough I also feel a bit of isolation I kind of enjoy it most of the time and otherwise the benefits easily outweighs the negative stuff like isolation. But that is of course just me, there is no need to force people to work from home (unless the company do not have an office) but the issue is that most companies won't let you even if you want to.
I notice this report doesn't give the specifics. When they worked remotely, did they still have access to easy, painless, video conferencing? We have remote workers; we oftentimes broadcast them in a Bluejeans conference room on a TV near the people working on site, and it really changes the dynamic.
Similarly, I'd be interested in a survey after the fact to determine a person's social life outside of work. If people have an active one apart from work, I suspect 100% remote is more attractive. When a person's main sources of social contact are at work, I can see that taking a major hit; just water cooler chatter and shared lunches and things would be missed more if you don't have regular social activities.
Everyone is different. I work alone every day and have not had any difficulty mentally or otherwise. This is probably because I prefer quiet to begin with with and could never stand the office environment.
This might look like it's emotionally loaded response, but I'm just giving you tough love here:
> - To more effectively add to the culture of the company.
This is genuine question, what does this even mean?
> - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered.
This all can be done online and it's even better, if you have to focus on task and there are people constantly bothering you , or vice versa you interrupt someone, this does nothing but lowers productivity
> - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people.
In 15 years of work I've never had this issue, it's more managers' problem I guess, proving that they do something by visually showing that they do something - like organising meetings about nothing. And how it's less awkward to chase people around building than just set up meeting adding it to calendar?
> - To provide mentorship to junior staff.
There's this thing called documentation ;)
> - To collaborate more effectively.
We're not raising barn walls, there's a ton of tools to support collaboration
> - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining.
At assembly line in car factory, yes. Although this seems to be frequent theme in this industry: dress up and act busy because some big old guys are comming, we have to make good impression. Then there's this crowd of people pacing around asking random questions (imagine what kind, as for most of them 'the internet' is a blue E letter on desktop). Again, that's not productive working.
> - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie.
Making great product that you can be proud of does all of this , or if you really cannot live without 'making great team' just set up some after hours go out or idk paintball or something
>> - To provide mentorship to junior staff.
> There's this thing called documentation ;)
Mentoring is somewhat more than telling someone to RTFM. A smart engineer who's willing to teach less experienced team members is extremely valuable. The people who are really good at it never see it as a bother, just part of the job.
My experience is that it's not as effective with remote teams.
At least it's a tech industry-only phenomenon right? In all the other industries, people are rational data analyzers with no bias whatsoever. If there's an epitomy of the tech industry, it's blaming ourselves for being uniquely bad at things we're actually better at than most.
I feel that one is data collected about productivity, and the other is a community survey. That's another form of data, but I personally wouldn't hold it nearly as high of an indicator as other data.
What does "actual data" mean? All data is actual. A study is not the termination of a logical argument. Its a model that someone thinks best explains the gathered data. Most studies don't go anywhere. People keep doing them so we get better and better and eventually stumble upon something useful.
Most gamers will object to the last paragraph. There are really a lot of strong friendships without ever meeting in person. Back then eben without ever hearing each other's voice. I've been working for a startup at the other end of the world for 2 years now and rejected lots of much better (remote) offers because I like the team... Which I've never met in person.
But I grew up in that ICQ/IRC/Forums culture and as a teenie stayed home alone for weeks while my parents were on vacation, didn't bother me. So certainly a personality thing. Now with wife and kids, my remote working times are the only lone times I have,so I love it.
One of the reasons companies like to have employees under one roof is to instill a "gung-ho" attitude. When employees know each other from face to face interactions, there are stronger bonds. These bonds help with employee retention.
When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder.
That works both ways. If there is someone you just don't like at work, having to sit next to them every day really crushes morale.
>When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder.
Being able to remote will keep me at a soul sucking company a lot longer than having to drive through rush hour twice a day. Believe this: if you hire someone as a remote programmer, you will get better access to better candidates for less money. Consider it a competitive advantage.
True, but to a company, that's not as important as social cohesion. That's how companies get employees to overwork, to take work home, etc. Social cohesion is the glue that binds employees to their job, instead of the employee realizing it's a job. It's no different than getting free massages, or soda and snacks.
> At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc.
For me, this is the key point. We do NOT have a quiet working space. We are disturbed constantly. :-(
Ah yes.. we should sacrifice productivity for the sake of "vibrant company culture", whatever that means.
I have been working remotely in a large company and allow me to refute your points.
> - To more effectively add to the culture of the company.
If your culture is already remote, or shifting towards it, then it's a non issue.
> - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered.
This works just as well remotely. In fact I would argue it's even more efficient, one can take advantage of super quiet places in a private video chat.
> - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people.
In person meetings, stand ups, team sync meetings are 90% waste of time. Short meetings can be performed quickly in a video call. Notifying team members of something urgent is also very easy.
> - To provide mentorship to junior staff.
Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. In fact if it's done online, I would argue it's more efficient because is a digital trail that one can trace back
> - To collaborate more effectively.
If your team members fail to collaborate remotely, they will fail to do so in person. Remote has nothing to do with it.
> - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining.
Partners and clients don't care how "vibrant" your team is.They care about how good your product is. This point makes no sense
> - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie.
This is hands on SV startup mentally. In person office drinking parties does not create morale.
Morale is created by hard work, strong vision and leadership.
All of which can be accomplished remotely.
The point I'm trying to get across is this: It all depends on the organizational structure. If it's correctly in place, it works very well. As long as there is a clear communication hub between all members, a company can succeed remotely.
> Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference.
But it makes a huge difference for some people like me. Information passed verbally just doesn't stick for me. For some reason it's not properly recorded in my memory and if you ask me about if half an hour later I would have forgotten 80% of what I was told.
Now give it to me in writing, and I'd probably remember it until the end of days.
Remote working only works well for a certain type of person. If you're that person, good for you. There are few people who are self-motivated enough to work remotely. Most people need and want daily human interactions with co-workers. All the problems you dismiss as non-problems, are only non-problems for you.
Ultimately, in either case, you can't tell someone they're doing it wrong if what they're doing is working for them and they're successful.
Having worked for both remote and "butts in seats" companies, allow me to refute your rebuttal
> If your culture is already remote, or shifting towards it, then it's a non issue.
What does this even mean? How is it a non issue? You are vastly underestimating the nuance required to get from A to B, mainly, from in-person to remote capable.
> This works just as well remotely. In fact I would argue it's even more efficient, one can take advantage of super quiet places in a private video chat.
This is opinion. It works for some people, but for others, part of communication is body language and being near someone. It's actually science. These "non-verbal" communication indicators are not as well communicated through a telepresence.
> In person meetings, stand ups, team sync meetings are 90% waste of time.
Sounds like some more opinion, as well as something that can greatly vary from company to company.
> Short meetings can be performed quickly in a video call.
HA! Have you seen the sorry state of affairs that is telepresence software?
> Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. In fact if it's done online, I would argue it's more efficient because is a digital trail that one can trace back
Again, sounds like you are projecting your own personal opinions as some sort of fact. The digital trail point is a separate issue, and a valid one, the rest of the point is opinion.
> If your team members fail to collaborate remotely, they will fail to do so in person. Remote has nothing to do with it.
Opinion.
> Partners and clients don't care how "vibrant" your team is.They care about how good your product is. This point makes no sense
Oh, oh yes they do. You obviously have not been in a meeting where you have one of the big 4 Telco's in your building (I have), and you are giving them a tour, and they are impressed by your "amazing work culture" (your buildings and office are just as much as "marketing" as your sales pitch -- some people seem to miss this point), then you land that multi-million dollar contract, making it all worth it.
> This is hands on SV startup mentally.
Having never worked in SV myself, this seems like again, more opinion, and varies from place to place.
> The point I'm trying to get across is this: It all depends [ on the organization structure.]
You are very right -- it most certainly, almost always, depends.
> This is opinion. It works for some people, but for others, part of communication is body language and being near someone. It's actually science. These "non-verbal" communication indicators are not as well communicated through a telepresence.
For people like myself who struggle to understand body language, when everyone else in the room "gets it", forcing people to explain in detail removes ambiguity.
Not GP but I think that the point is that the whole "corporate culture" is mostly bullshit - you wouldn't expect factory or farm workers to form a "culture" and "take pride in their work" or "share company values", so why are you expecting all of this from knowledge workers?
For me the whole "corporate culture" thing is just an attempt to brainwash people into accepting lower salary, because "we are changing the world here".
I think when I was younger, I wanted to believe in it. But, yes, now that I'm older and I reflect, I don't think I've ever been part of one that wasn't fake.
There are the owners/middle management/laborers. To trick the laborers into thinking that they are part of something is pretty brilliant though.
Oh it absolutely is. Want to see evidence? If a client or someone important comes to visit the office, management asks everyone to wear nicer clothes and "clean up your workspaces." If culture was so great and beneficial, they sure make a point to hide it when it's important.
In your view, is there a difference between micromanaging authorian culture compared to a consensus-driven culture where the employees all trust each other?
I've seen several different companies from the insidr, and each one has had vastly different cultures. Usually it is an implementation of the CEO/upper management's views of what "corporate culture" is. There's still usually a facade, but that facade is not necessarily disingenuous.
The couple of times when I worked for companies that openly talked about employees and corporate culture, it was basically stated as "come build the culture we all want" but put into practice as "come build the culture that we all in management want and do not deviate."
However, you may decide that the individual productivity loss of having people work in an office is outweighed by the group productivity and morale gain from having people working together. Here are some reasons from a holistic company perspective for requiring people to work out of the office:
- To more effectively add to the culture of the company.
- To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered.
- To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people.
- To provide mentorship to junior staff.
- To collaborate more effectively.
- To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining.
- To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie.
At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc.
Last point. To anyone who is running a business where your employees can easily choose to work from home for any company in the world, such as software engineers: creating a vibrant company culture is one of the ways in which you can attract and retain team members. Many people like being part of an in-person team and working with each other on a regular basis. But if they're already working from home and rarely seeing their co-workers, what difference does it make if they choose to work for some startup out of SF?