I'd be interested to know how much of this has to do with the dilution of the meaning of 'leather' in terms of consumer goods. The market is flooded with garbage products, which are produced by slicing a thin veneer of leather and gluing it to a plastic backing, which is then sold as "bonded leather." It's gotten so bad that full-grain leather products are exceedingly rare.
Since 90% of "leather" products are such awful garbage, it's not surprising to me that consumers have abandoned the sector en masse.
I had a really awesome leather belt that I got when I was 15. I stopped wearing it when I was 30 because my weight finally out outgrew the belt. Still have it. It's no worse today than it was when I got it as a teen.
I go through about a belt a year now. Because I always seem to end up with this crap you describe. Even if I try to avoid it. Guess I need to do a better job looking... Or just lose some weight so I can use that same belt for another 15years.
I didn’t appreciate how durable leather was until four years ago when I was recommended some quality men’s dress shoes on eBay.
The shoes were $100, because they retail for $400-$500, but when I purchased them they were 10 years old and in good condition. I have since been wearing them quite regularly, and they still look as new as the day I got them.
I used to spend $100 a year on typical men’s shoes, not realizing how wasteful it all was. Leather is an amazing material when it is cared for, and it can be a very eco-friendly clothing solution to our throwaway culture of petroleum products.
I am now sold on quality leather shoes, because they are in fact cheaper and better for the environment than any petroleum shoes when properly cared for (for the simple fact that they can last 10 to 20 years).
I have repeatedly bought the Puma suede classics or whatever they're called, not because they rip or get beat up, but because they last indefinitely. I haven't thrown out a single pair and still rotate them out. And they're only ~40-50 when on sale.
Allen Edmonds. You have to make sure to get your feet sized properly. I.e. after a not-cold day of work with a lot of standing/walking, use a Brannock device to find your #-letter combo, e.g. 10D. (This is the same advice for getting your proper ring size :))
The cork soles and the leather will slowly morph to your foot shape as you use them, so they get more comfortable as you use them. My most comfortable pair had its last manufacturing run in ~2005 (“lauderdale”).
Go to Etsy.com. It's great for leather products. I bought lots of belts from brand names growing up, and they all quickly fell apart. Then I learned about full grain leather. I talked with a local person I found on Etsy, provided the measurements to the center hole, chose a solid stainless steel buckle from their selection, gave them the measurements for the width of the belt, and they cut one from some black, full grain, vegetable tanned leather. I've had the belt for years, wear it all the time, and it's like new, but just keeps looking better and getting softer.
Once again, go to Etsy and search for full grain leather belts. I spent about $70 on mine. This is one of the markets where you'll get a much better product working with a local craftsman than shopping with a brand name.
I hear this all the time, and I'm sure it's true in some product categories, but it has not been my experience at all, at least not lately. Go search "full grain leather belt" on Etsy, do the tiniest bit of research on the sellers on the first-page of results, and tell me I'm wrong...
lifeProtip- Goodwill prices all belts the same in every store I've been to.
They're like 1-3 dollars and there's usually a couple real leather ones on the rack. I have several just hanging around now.
The tip cuts make sense to me. You can either go rounded, have a point, or go with a taper. The image changes based on which one you choose.
They have a sizing guide on the product page where they use your old belt as a base for measurement.
As for point number one, I feel like that's a matter of preference, specifically because fashion is subjective.
I mean, I agree with the sentiment of your comment, specifically they could definitely do more user friendly things, but I figure most of their customers are into bespoke products and are okay with doing research on their own or are informed.
"Clinch 1.25" means something to the website owners and to their more dedicated customers.
I'm not that person though- I just clicked on a picture of a belt on their homepage, so "C125" is a random string to me.
Is "C125" the thing I want to order or the opposite of that thing? I forget.
I also wouldn't know they have a sizing guide on their homepage, because I'm on their checkout page already.
I know that sounds silly (and pretty much incompetent of me as a buyer), but there are a lot of eComm sites, a lot of places to buy belts, and busy lives for customers.
You either hold the customer's hand through checkout, or you bleed abandoned carts.
I found a comment online that goes:
> Tapered
> - easier grip to pull/cinch the belt
> - easier to get through the loop
Rounded
> - 5" less excess going through the loop.
> - great if you are sharing belts (if the smaller person is wearing the belt in its tightest setting, they won't have the excess talked about in first bullet point)
Little notes like this would go a long way during the checkout process.
I second the recommendation of A Simple Leather Belt Co. I have a brown and a black from them, and they're extremely well made. The user interface for designing your belt is also quite clear.
I've been in the market for new belts for a year now, so the glut of hides is good news. Time to stock up for another century!
I've had very good full grain leather belts in the past. Now that I know the market situation I'm going to search for a big (cheap) piece of full-grain cowhide and cut my own damn belts out of it. Belts aren't hi-tech. It isn't as if we're talking about making a 5-nm chip here; more like "cow chip" tech.
I'm in Texas now so there are probably cowhides all over the local flea markets and wholesale shops.
Could just order some from China(1). Have to read the description carefully tho. Usually anything under 15USD not worth buying and over 30USD you're overpaying.
qwsc was referring to the almost-free international postal rates for parcels that China received from USPS when it was a struggling exporter decades ago.
As in, lower than domestic parcel rates inside the USA, typically in the range of $1 - $2.
I believe Trump mentioned considering re-negotiating that deal recently, which nobody has objected to.
It's not a subsidy specific to China. It's an international agreement to charge certain international rates for postage. It applies only to packages under a certain size and weight.
But it probably should go away. It creates this weird imbalance where shipping things from China to the US can be cheaper than shipping something to your next door neighbor.
Yes. I have a leather belt from highschool (buckle is stamped spain, have no idea how i got it and my parents can't remember)... it has a weathered look to it, but is perfectly fine (i use it today still).
After getting fed up of of cloth like deteriorating "leather" belts, recently i looked closely and ended up with a timberland (stamped india) "genuine leather" (means not leather again) belt. In comparison, the timberland used stitching to attach the buckle while my old spanish belt used two hefty rivets to attach the buckle.
I think we do still make things excellently... it's just for the 1% (maybe when i was young in the u.s. i was the 1% in the world at the time).
It's funny, I have a similar story: my mother bought me a leather belt as a child around 1995. It finally bit the dust a few years ago. I bought a belt from the same company (Land's End) and it barely lasted a year. Then my aunt got me one from Duluth Trading Company for Christmas. That was about two years ago and it's shown no signs of stopping yet.
Lands End used to be pretty much a go to for me. After all the Sears and private equity stuff that went on I became increasingly disillusioned with their quality. I still get clothing from them now and then but quality generally has gone downhill.
Try searching leather goods on Amazon or Ebay. 95% of the results aren't - they're leathercloth, fake leather, bonded leather, PVC, but use "leather" as a headline keyword anyway. Amazon don't care despite it being borderline fraudulent.
Then you see a quality brand you remember from 40 years ago who once sold proper thick hide belts. Comes for a similar premium price that has you thinking it's the real thing still. You can have something that looks the same - for a couple of years. Except it's bonded leather, with a cheaply plated buckle, made in China or Vietnam.
The leather goods shop, that sold only pukka items, in town is long gone. As is the shopkeeper who could advise which leather would suit your need best, and order in special niche items. There might be a real maker somewhere online, selling at artisan (ie absurd) prices. You may never know it as everyone else is trying to imply their crap is that too.
So how do we solve this problem of uninformed decision (even when the customer tries his best to make an informed choice around choosing actual leather)?
Something like a site with "leather teardowns" on products?
Alternatively, what would be a good non-invasive non-destructive method to detect its actual leathernness? Something like Atomic Dielectric Resonance scanning? It may sound absurd to construct an ADR scanner to buy a leather item on a sporadic basis, but the device could be rented (for a miniscule price, with a deposit in escrow to ensure return) say at a bio-shop... Or somehow build it into a phone, using its radio spectrum?
I’m in the same boat - I have a Nautica belt that I bought in 8th grade (37 now) that I still wear daily, though it is getting tighter it works like new. The buckle holes are not even noticeably stretched.
As a tangent, Vivobarefoot is a shoe company that makes very high quality leather shoes. I bought a pair of their brown low-tops and have worn them everyday for work for 4(+) years. Other than looking slightly worn they function as new. No affiliation, just impressed with the craftsmanship.
> As a tangent, Vivobarefoot is a shoe company that makes very high quality leather shoes. I bought a pair of their brown low-tops and have worn them everyday for work for 4(+) years. Other than looking slightly worn they function as new. No affiliation, just impressed with the craftsmanship.
I've bought Vivobarefoot (mostly when they're on sale) for over 7 years now, and the build quality of their shoes are really hit-or-miss — while the leather doesn't wear, some of their soles tend to puncture or flake within months.
The pair I'm currently wearing daily, their Soul of Africa Gobi, has been going strong for over a year now.
Their Stealth and Evo series of running shoes (not leather) are rubbish. My Evo died after 131 km/81 miles of running — normal running shoes should last at least 2-3 times of that.
I wonder if the country of production plays a part in build quality.
My guess has been that their small scale makes designing for long-term durability challenging.
My Evo also got trashed pretty quickly, but I had a pair of Neo that lasted around seven years before I finally wore through the sole. Have a couple from their Primus line for the past year or so that seem to be holding up well so far.
If you happen to live in SoCal, Wil Leather of Abbot Kenny is legit leather. They're expensive, but I have a few of their things and I love them dearly.
I recommend Hank’s Belts online. I bought two. First one with a blemish (that I can’t find) for half price and a regular one for full price. Both have lasted me 3+ years now.
When the price of materials is low enough, like leather, you are paying for the decisions the creator made, use of their time, tools and facilities, and distribution convenience.
As an extreme example, a napkin sketch by Picasso is not valued relative to napkins.
If the creator makes a belt just the way I want it, that’s worth a couple hours pay to me.
I had a similar experience although the cheap cast zinc on the buckle finally failed. The leather is still in pretty decent shape, despite ~15 years of abuse.
I bought a pricey belt from Kenneth Kole made of this crap without knowing better. It was garbage within months. I learned my lesson and bought a proper leather belt from who knows what brand from Amazon for a fraction of the price, it's doing great years later. My parents had a horrible experience with made in china "leather" chairs. They had to reupholster them within months. You have to be very careful buying leather now and do hours of product/brand research to ensure you're not getting a lemon. At my hourly rate, that costs me way more than the product itself for anything less than large furniture items. I'm a lot less likely to buy leather goods as a result.
The brand names are the worst in this regard. I think pretty much any Kenneth Kole leather item I have ever seen in the last 10 years has been fake leather; definitely do stay away from those.
That doesn't work, I'm not sure it ever did. Yeah if something says full grain then it's full grain, but if you want corrected grain calf no grading system can help you. Corrected grain calf is what most people wanting a leather jacket that doesn't look like a biker or a statement piece will be thinking about.
Thanks for this; I had no idea that Genuine Leather wasn't a good thing, but I did have my suspicions as so many products seem to use the designation where the quality doesn't seem to be there.
Will be making sure to look for full-grain leather from now on (ironically, I thought that "Genuine" designation was better).
Adding on: I've been looking for wallet suggestions on Reddit, and chanced upon North Star Leather's posts on how "Grades of Leather" was made up for marketing purposes [1][2].
I think those articles, and his Reddit comments [3], are worth a read to get an insight into how leather workers see this.
This is a great point. I'd be interested in seeing some data where words/definitions/"generic trademarks" are better protected. For example, I remember reading something within the last few years about the FDA considering cracking down on companies using "milk" in non-dairy products like almond milk, soy milk, etc.
It's almost a tragedy of the commons where there is a generic trademark that isn't protected, or maybe in the opposite case where everyone colludes to dilute the generic trademark to increase profit margins. Like using "blueberries" that aren't real blueberries but just made up of sugar and some artificial ingredients.
When I sold furniture 15 years ago, one of the selling lines was buying leather now is a great investment since the meat industry puts so much leather on the market it was super cheap. Not sure if it's still true or if it ever was.
A few years ago, I bought a hand made leather wallet from a leatherworker in Germany. It has a beautiful patina now and is in perfect shape. Quality matters.
Wallets are a very good example of an industry overrun with inferior "leather-based" products. "Genuine Leather" may as well be the brand name of the shittiest fake leather sold on Earth, because I'd bet that a majority (>50%) of "Genuine Leather" products on the market are complete bullshit.
The cost and brand name of a product mean nothing. You can buy a $10,000+ "Genuine Leather" wallet, claimed to be "handmade" by a top-5 wallet manufacturer brand name... and chances are it's all lies. They sell too many wallets for them to be handmade, so the fact is they use sewing machines with the cheapest labour they can get away with. The company is physically incapable of tracing the chain of custody of their leather; they'll tell you to your face it's "genuine" (bonus words for "locally sourced/farmed"), but that's a game of Operator/Telephone 10 players deep to the point where nobody remembers the truth.
tldr; Most leather, including "genuine leather", is anything but. That includes the largest brand names; in fact even more so, because the demand for their products is too high to secure any kind of guarantee of quality regarding sourced materials. How many large-scale manufacturers of leather products are willing to legally sign on the dotted line that they can prove which cow and farm any given wallet came from? Exactly, and that's 21st century capitalism at its core.
I unfortunately prefer the economics of a self-strenghtening friction "buckle" on my belt.
Until recently I used a simple fabric belt which had thicker (2mm) warp on the edges than in the middle. The yarn was about half the diameter I'd guess compared to typical backpack straps, but cotton or something less rough than what these typical straps are made of. It was about 2 inch wide.
The "buckle" was just a pair of 3mm non-stainless steel wire formed into rectangles (2inch by 1.2 inch), which the belt was pulled through and about an inch of overlapping belt was sewn together almost aggressively. Usage was "wrap around hip", "pull free end from the back through both rectangles", "split the rectangles a bit from each other", "loop the free end around the outer rectangle, and thread it back between the incoming strap and the other rectangle", "hold buckle-side end of belt with one hand to the side (still contacting your body), while pulling the free end the other direction (tangentially to your skin at the point the 'buckle' touches)".
This results in the looped-around rectangle being pulled against the other one, which squishes the belt between them _and_ creates a slight bump the incoming belt is going around before the rectangle side it wraps tightly. If the belt isn't too smooth, this is self-locking while under force (your body is elastic), and to unlock, you just twist the rectangles around your the long axis of your spine to decrease the bump from the looped-back part of the belt. You can do that by bracing the hand with the outside of the intermediate phalanges of middle and ring fingee, while reaching with thumb and index finger to pull the steel rectangle's corners with a slight pinching force (that is just trying to shorten the larger dimension of the rectangle).
This means that loosening to drop pants that drop to the knees if the belt is gone is a 3 μstep action done blind with one hand (touch belt/buckle with supporting phalanges, pinch corners, twist and pull away from your body to create some slack. This takes half a second.
My new buckle is a case the loose end is threaded through, which has guide slots in the sides facing your nose and toes (respectively) for a pin that is self-locking by pinching the belt between it and the inside of the side of the case facing away from you. This requires two hands to reduce load on the buckle, followed by pinching the pin where it pokes it's rounded ends through the slots to pull it out of the self-locking end of the slot.
I preferred the old one, but how to find a good belt like that? Also, it tends to look tattered/unprofessional with the friction-damaged fabric belt and the non-shiny (not obviously rusty) steel wire rectangles.
If anyone knows a source for such at sane pricing, I'd appreciate sharing of knowledge.
The article claims natural tanning methods result in an inferior product. I believe this to be false. The reason nasty chemicals are used is because it is cheaper, especially if the toxic waste can just be dumped in the environment.
If they are "looking" for a natural method, look no further than Chouara tannery in Fez, Morocco. It's an open air tannery that has operated continuously since the 11th century, with the techniques handed down through the generations.
They use cow urine, pigeon feces, quicklime, salt and water in the tanning process. It smells about as bad as you would imagine. They give visitors a sprig of mint to hold in front of your nose. It helps, a little bit.
The end result is gorgeous leather that stands up very well. I have a pouf that is dyed with saffron, it is still soft a decade later. If you get a chance to buy some of this leather, I would highly recommend it. I'm sure it is available online, too.
“According to Hidenet, a leather markets research firm, a hide from a branded cow went for as little as $4 the week of July 15, down from as much as $81 just five years ago.”
Wait, what? Consumer trends have shifted so radically in 5 years that even with a white hot economy leather prices have dropped by 20x?
Beef and hide are coupled goods. One cow produces about X kg of beef and Y m^2 of hide. If demand for beef is extra high, then it will depress the price of hide because the ratio in supply is roughly fixed between them.
There are other examples in modern society. Chlorine and caustic soda are produced in strictly fixed ratios from NaCl salt and electricity. Extra demand for one will depress the price of the other. The effect is quite sharp in this example, since both products are expensive to store.
Similarly, the hydraulic fracking industry has somewhat depressed the market price of natural gas in the US. The miners are really hunting for high-value liquid hydrocarbons. The gaseous hydrocarbons are quite low-margin by comparison, but come along for the ride in the shale being exploited right now. The effect is more modest in this example since new home construction, new electricity production, and industrial process heat can all be biased towards natural gas. But its still there.
If electric and other high-efficiency propulsion technologies takes off enough to impact gasoline consumption, then a side effect in the US will be an increase in natural gas prices. The source of the increase is twofold: Decreased production of liquid hydrocarbons will decrease supply of gaseous hydrocarbons, and increased demand for electricity will raise demand for gaseous hydrocarbons.
"The amount of beef produced per cow has seen an 18% improvement over the past 20 years. The average cow size across all breeds is 1,390 lbs., with less than 100 lbs. separating the heaviest and lightest breeds."
> Similarly, the hydraulic fracking industry has somewhat depressed the market price of natural gas in the US. The miners are really hunting for high-value liquid hydrocarbons.
And so they have been fracking more liquidy "wetter" natural gas where possible, depressing prices for ethane, butane and propane (but which are still more profitable than methane, BTU for BTU).
Cheaper ethane = cheaper plastics as we turn on more and more polyethylene plants (easier to store/ship).
In the winter, we can froth up gasoline with butane, which is largely why winter gas is cheaper.
I can't help but get the sense that your economic materials analysis is based on a video game crafting economy. If the profitability of leather is low enough, then people will trash the raw hide but butcher and sell the beef. There's a lot of labor and logistics and materials that goes into producing the beef you cook or leather goods you buy beyond (cow) -> (meat,leather) -> (food,clothes). Remember, nobody knows how to make a pencil.
How does this contradict the point that GP made? GP did not imply that you get a free piece of leather with each cow slaughtered, just a hide.
Btw, even game economy models this part - in Dwarf Fortress a slaughtered animal produces skin, which will decompose if not tanned or converted to parchment.
- After processing, leather doesn't rot. Thus it is a durable good, and stockpiles can build up
- Texas and other parts of the nation had massive droughts a few years back. This resulted in herd culling, which could have increased the supply of available hides at the time.
The economy is hardly white-hot, especially for people below the top decile or so – the median American worker made 5% LESS in 2018 than in 1979 (https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45090.pdf) – so I’d be surprised if this wasn’t basic economics: for a long time, leather was a premium good and cost more, so companies focused on using less of it and the large fraction of consumers who favor low prices rewarded them for it. It’s easy to hit a threshold where cutting the remaining usage entirely is a good marketing move since it removes a type of material from your system and attracts buyers who avoid animal products.
Prices may be low but they’d have to stay lower than the equivalent synthetics for a long time to get manufacturers to invest in redesigning and changing their supply chains.
It appears to me that the report you cite says that the overall median real wage rose by 6.1% over that time period. (Table 1, page 4, first row; related text on page 5).
What figure in the report are you using to determine a 5% decrease over that time period?
My mistake: that’s the figure for men overall, which is balanced in the general statistic by the huge gains for women. I should have checked more carefully but was on a phone.
The main point I was going at is that most of us here have a really skewed view of the general economy after a couple decades of good times for tech workers which haven’t been generally true of the overall job market, especially when you factor in benefits and job security. This is similar for stock market gains when so many Americans have no or only a token stake invested.
> In 1979, wages at the 10th percentile ranged from $10.03 for black and Hispanic women to $14.42 for white men, whereas in 2018 wages in the 10th percentile ranged from $9.72 for Hispanic women to $13.70 for white men.
This adds up to -4.99% for white men in the 10th percentile. Above the 10th percentile everyone has done better.
I assume cows are mostly raised and slaughtered for their meat, with leather as just a sort of bonus. That would mean that the supply is extremely inelastic: farmers won’t raise and slaughter noticeably fewer cows just because leather prices drop a lot, or more cows just because they jump a lot. That would imply that a small swing in demand could result in large changes in price.
I wonder how much of this is because of the increase in cheaper faux leather, maybe even also combined with inflation, you may be paying the same numerical amount for poly leather as you did for genuine leather 20 years ago.
Also I guess if a company can cut costs by using the improved poly leather and the consumer doesn’t notice or care then that’s the move.
More like cheap Chinese bonded leather which permeates most sub-$100 leather goods.
I make a pass on buying most leather products because it's so hard to find decent quality without an overinflated price. I don't even dare buying it online unless its a niche where substandard materials are unlikely.
Feels like the leather industry needs to launch an education campaign to distinguish the real thing from the cheap China knock offs... big marketing/branding opportunity for the sector. Most consumers, myself included, have no clue about grading leather, etc.
Leather still is a durable and useful material, if properly cared for. Assuming its production as a by-product of the slaughterhouse, it could be considered more sustainable than plastic (it can biodegrade).
Tesla and a lot of other car makers are switching to so called "vegan leather" in their cars. Which is a fashionable way of saying synthetic leather. In Tesla's case it is for everything except the steering wheel which they still use real leather for. It seems to be an admission that the real thing is still more durable under some circumstances.
This is explained near the beginning of the article. Just five years ago... leather outpriced itself, forcing shoe and clothing designers to cut the material from their products. Combine that with the rise of athleisure and the growing popularity of “vegan clothing,” and one can see why demand hasn’t come back.
It’s the intersection of high global demand for beef with its consequential byproduct of hides and the depressed appetite for leather goods in mature economies influenced by the long campaign against fur which coupled with vegetarianism and veganism have resulted in change in consumer behavior over time.
>a hide from a branded cow went for as little as $4 the week of July 15
That price point doesnt seem right. Can anyone point me where you can actually buy a cowhide for $4? or even $40? Quick search gives me ~$50 for calf hides. Even Chinese fake leather cowhide rugs start at ~$50.
Made to measure starts at 1kish and bespoke from a nice workshop at around 1.5k to 2k, for normal cow or sheep or goat leather. More than that and you are paying for the brand and less than that and your jacket is probably from an Indian or Chinese sweatshop, like All Saints.
The retail clothes industry is getting insane with all the markup from actually sourcing the garment, the smart choice for expensive pieces if you really know what you want is having it made.
Find a cheap heavy but stiff motorcycle jacket that's solid leather. Get a can of Hydrophane leather dressing, which is about $20/half liter. This silicone oil is used to soften and waterproof saddles and horse equipment. Paint it on with a paintbrush. Give it about a day to soak in. You now have a soft leather jacket.
Horse people have been using this stuff for decades. It beats the "natural" products like neats-foot oil on both effectiveness and price.
As a motorcyclist who just came in the door from a 300+ mi. day, the two most interesting leather goods makers for jackets are Vanson Leathers and Schott NYC. U.S made, and last forever. Both do custom work as well. Lewis Leathers in the UK is the other big brand, with Roland Sands Design on more trendy end of the spectrum.
For boots, I can recommend Gasonlina, who do made to measure motorcycle boots, and I've a pair of their "shortcut" boots for years.
If there is a drop in leather prices, it's an excellent opportunity to get custom clothing and gear made. Wish prices were down when I got my Vanson.
Depending on where you're located, it might be worth checking out Langlitz Leather in Portland, OR. I have two of their jackets, my girlfriend has one, and I have friends who have them as well. They are absolutely "buy once, cry once" garments, I suspect my family will be fighting over mine when I am (eventually) dead.
I would recommend r/goodyearwelt for recommendations on boots. Really knowledgeable community without being too snobbish (imo).
I’ve found some pretty good leather jacket threads on Styleforum. There’s another forum whose name is escaping my mind, but they are dedicated to classic reproduction leather jackets.
I bought a Ted Lapidus leather jacket fifteen years ago and although it was quite pricey (around 1k in 2004) I haven't regretted the choice. It's in prime condition and will probably last me at least another 15 years. So my advice is to go for a respectable brand or some specialized shop for tailor made clothes and be ready to pay a generous price.
Someone provided a link showing there are not just high end and low end leathers, but roughly 5 categories. The problem is the price for good leather clothes is astronomical, especially with the very low price of the materials, while the quality of low end is terrible and the middle of the market is completely missing.
It's true that leather jackets aren't very comfortable because they can't stretch. But they're definitely warm and proof of that is that they're worn by motorcyclists for ages. And then there is the fact that you can wear them in multiple occasions, from a social event to a casual stroll with your friends. You can even wear them with a tie.
Bikers wear leather for abrasion protection in the event of an accident. Its heft also means it doesn't flap at high speed, particularly if tight fitting as recommended (again, in case of an accident). But it doesn't stretch, so it's not easy to wear more layers underneath.
For protection against the elements, technical clothing with fancy fibres are a better option - way more waterproof, and can work with a heated vest if it gets very cold. Not as good in a long slide though.
Interesting. I suppose I'm one of the few holdouts who still love leather clothing (motorcycle jackets, you weirdos ;-)) and accessories (I have multiple Saddleback Leather bags, wallets, etc). I don't see those items getting cheaper any time soon, I guess that indicates their profit margins have gone through the roof in the interim.
The expense in producing fine leather goods is the labor costs. It's a craft which requires much training and/or experience, and highly-skilled leatherworkers do not come cheaply.
As someone who loves a good quality leather belt (or wallet), I see the same situation in Europe. Probably not a US-specific problem, but a clothing industry problem (where they ask for insane prices and cut all the corners on quality).
If you have read Richard Henry Dana, "Two Years Before the Mast", much of life in California used to revolve around the processing and trade of hides, in fact seemingly in many places that was the only activity going on. How the times have changed.
This is a shame because if you search for leather goods online, you’ll find whole shops full of garbage quality leather called Premium Crafted Leather aka PU Leather. They take leather fibers and coat it in polyurethane to give it a “proper” finish.
It’s disappointing to see a race to the bottom with leather quality when it seems like there’s no need for that.
Many of these canvas wallets include features such as "full-grain leather trim" which defeats the purpose of the search. Those that don't mostly look like fragile garbage.
Unfortunately these lower leather prices certainly don't seem to have affected the price of premium, handmade leather goods. Leather is good in so many things: wallets, belts, shoes, bags, jackets... It's naturally water-resistant and lasts for decades, yet it seems like all the big-box stores and manufactures have abandoned real full-grain leather for synthetics or even cheaper leather alternatives (PU, "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine," etc). Despite the leather prices falling off a cliff, real full-grain leather is becoming a niche market.
> “There are hides with no value. We’re throwing a natural product in the garbage.”
This makes me very sad. The least we could do with the burgeoning meat market is use all of the parts of the animal to the best of our ability. The fact that people still prefer fake synthetic leather when real leather is so cheap and readily available it's being thrown away is unfortunate.
> it seems like all the big-box stores and manufactures have abandoned real full-grain leather for synthetics or even cheaper leather alternatives (PU, "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine," etc).
If we're specifically talking about full-grain leather, I suspect that it's because consumers have this unrealistic ideal of "unmarked"/"mint" leather that's hard to achieve, at low prices, on large pieces of full-grain leather.
Unfortunately these lower leather prices certainly don't seem to have affected the price of premium, handmade leather goods.
I suspect (but cannot prove) that in the case of premium, handmade leather goods, the majority of the cost (probably a really big majority) is the time of the people hand-making it, which is unaffected by the drop of the cost in the leather.
I saw a pile of leather pieces outside a home, on the street, near Seattle with a sign that said "free leather". I'm not sure why anyone would want it, but it looked sad...like someone had died and they were clearing the home.
I never liked leather as a material: heavy, easily scratched, etc. when I was a kid it was used in everything from backpacks to camera cases. Leather seats in cars get hot in ways cloth ones do not. Etc. Good riddance!
Well, I have leather hiking boots. Heavy but highly functional.
It always seemed crazy to me that leather goods, while functionally inferior in most cases, are considered the ”luxury” versions. Some sort of Vleben reasoning I suppose.
Well, at least it’s biodegradable unlike most of the alternatives. That’s a big deal too.
> Leather seats in cars get hot in ways cloth ones do not.
I never understood the fascination with leather car seats. Climbing into an oven to sit on a burner isn't my definition of premium or luxury by a long shot.
Americans are eating more beef than they have in a decade? That's really surprising; seems everyone I talk to - not just vegetarians - have started looking at beef as something to be indulged in only on occasion. I assume the climate impact is the main reason.
That's why one should not make assumptions based on limited personal experience.
We have eaten meat for thousands of years and most people will not stop doing that, just bcause it's currently fashionable to say you do not eat meat or have reduced consumption.
The argument for omnivorianism that I find unassailable is that plowing which is required for annuals is actually worse for the environment than ruminant emissions. While utilizing perenials will require ruminants for a truly holistic agriculture that cycles all nutrients efficiently. So a Perennial plant base agriculture with ruminants to hlelp cycle nutrients is the best ag option available, so eating a few a of the ruminants as they age out of the cohort makes sense, and would be wasteful not to do so.
I actively avoid meat in the company cafeteria and at most restaurants, but buy grass-fed beef or a free-range chicken most weekends to cook, or packaged free-range chicken legs if I’m feeling a bit lazy. The price per pound is ridiculous (“why did you spend 15 bucks on a little chicken that looks like a damn mockingbird?”) to my dad, who eats a good half pound of meat every day.
In the end, I probably spend about as much on meat as a less-picky meat eater in Germany does. 1kg free-range chicken legs: 8-10 EUR, 1kg cheapest chicken legs: 2-3 EUR. Two free-range chicken legs weigh about the same as one cheap one.
Leather and leather goods are easier to export than beef, so what really matters would be total world supply and demand, not so much local per capita consumption, no?
Total red meat and poultry shows 2020 and 2019 as the 2 highest estimates though and the rest of the data shows a pretty clear trend line going upwards.
I'm guessing it has more to do with doctor recommendations to limit red meat for health concerns and so people are moving to other meats like poultry.
The surge in interest in keto (and less so the "carnivore" diet) would probably have something to do with it. As far as meat goes, beef is preferred to poultry or pork on that diet due to fat content.
I also have a terrible palate, do you think that's part of it for us? Beef is a fairly "guaranteed" taste that, depending on the cut, will give you what you're looking for regardless, I'd expect.
What do you eat besides meat? Since meat has the lowest energy density, you most likely get your energy from other sources anyway. Even if you eat 500g / 1lb per day for a 2000kcal target, you would still get 1500kcal from other food.
Average red meats will have calorie ranges right around 180-240 kcal per 100 grams. Of course that's low compared to sugary processed foods if you're going just by calories.
But it certainly isn't lowest when you consider the entire food pyramid. (most veggies and some fruits are lower)
Yes, I was thinking in the way of radicalbyte's comment and I take the dry values of carb sources which indeed reverses the ranking.
But even with beef, it takes 800g to reach 2000kcal[1]. I am just wondering if this can actually be the main source of energy for a long period of time.
That’s what the person you were responding to was saying- that they were surprised at the difference between their anecdata and the real data. And you responded by shitting on them for no good reason. Great job.
A lot of people do but go back some because of health issues, others because there friend circle changed and others keep going forever.
The parent poster mentioned everyone around him.. when the majority has accepted a viewpoint many will signal they are on board but eat meat with their other friends or parents. People want to fit in. It may seem like everyone but it may not be true.
The parent said: "seems everyone I talk to" and "have started looking at beef as something to be indulged in only on occasion". Not that people weren't still eating the same amount or that they didn't still eat red meat on social occasions to fit in (wait, more signalling!).
My dispute is with the idea that people only take an action to signal and not because they personally care.
Time to get some whole cut leather shoes, now on sale from $700 to only $600! $5 for the hide and $595 for the shoemakers labor. (Handmade stuff is expensive)
That’s not true if you’re talking about well-made men’s dress shoes. In that market, the best shoes are the best entirely because of materials and workmanship. Brand mainly indicates the level of quality you should expect as a buyer. Also, the brand can’t serve much of a social signaling function because usually trademarks aren’t visible and designs are traditional.
In World of Warcraft, there isn't any use for hides either. You can only cure them, but then there's nothing to do with the cured hides. The vendor price is static and set by Blizzard, though, so the prices don't change.
I would be sympathetic to the idea that in-game economies should try to be "real" except that Ultima Online tried that and it failed spectacularly (think: tragedy of the commons) and so they had to abandon it.
To be fair, Ultima Online’s economy was tanked by the innovation of bard/tamers and the Trammel ruleset introduced in Renaissance.
Massively increasing the supply by having it possible for players to trivialise the ransacking of dungeons without risk of losing their haul to PKers. Classic inflationary spiral.
The virtual economy of UO was killed by the time the beta test ended. We're talking about the NPC shopkeepers here, not the player owned vendors. The NPCs were supposed to follow things like supply/demand as well as having preferences as to what they wanted. Players got mad as they wanted to just be able to dump any old crap (typically bucketloads of skullcaps) to any old NPC.
The NPC shopkeepers also kept hours, would take breaks & walk around town, etc. That was another thing they wound up getting rid of quickly
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that stuff. A bunch of it was before my time and I only knew about it from other players' stories. Thank you for posting it!
Even with so much of that removed, UO always had the feeling of a living breathing world more than almost any other game.
I've heard stories that the Star Wars MMO captured a lot of the same aspects, at least the positive ones. Not surprising considering Koster's influence on both.
I never played it however, I was too hung up on the notion that anything short of a full on sandbox which allowed all the behaviors people were fleeing would be good enough for me. Took me a while to realize that the only people showing any interest in the types of games I was looking for were the people I hated.
Too late now but you might have enjoyed A Tale In The Desert, a very niche MMO where social dynamics were key. As an extreme example, the players could hold an election for Demi-Pharoah and the winner was entitled to ban one player from the game. Not a character, the player. Campaigns might claim they would just never use this power. On the other hand if someone is a total asshole (e.g. building penis shaped art in your farm and deliberately distracting people from group efforts like moving bits of pyramid) maybe a DP campaign could just promise to ban them.
You can't have a meaningful economy if significant parts of that economy are 'magical' such as bucketloads of spawned NPCs getting bucketloads of scullcaps out of nowhere.
Expecting a reasonable supply/demand for something that gets spawned without limit, and gets harvested as a side-effect of something people want to do anyway, is like expecting a supply/demand based trade in candy wrappers or banana peels; The obvious economic value for most NPC drops is zero, and artificial price fixing is required to make it something else.
Or, if one sticks to their supply/demand guns the skullcaps become worthless and either are avoided by players as a cheap way to skill up or it becomes a gold sink. Both are useful.
NB that in early UO, skullcaps weren’t a drop, they were mass produced as they were the most cost effective way to build stats and skills. Doubly so if shopkeepers would actually pay for them
The in-game economy of WoW is "real" (only vendor prices are set; there's an auction house where prices are set by the players), but Blizzard has to come up with new stuff for players to burn gold with to control the predictable inflation.
To me the most blatant examples are mounts; in the last expansion they added a mount that costed 2M gold[]--when I thought it was crazy and that they couldn't possibly outmatch it, they came up with a 5M gold mount[] that was released in the next (current) expansion.
Since 90% of "leather" products are such awful garbage, it's not surprising to me that consumers have abandoned the sector en masse.