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Unfortunately, flu vaccination has not proven to be much more effective than prayer.

Fortunately, it costs about the same! but still...



Near 50% effectiveness is quite a bit better than the (in my opinion) 0% effectiveness of prayer


That's not opinion - no study has shown prayer to have any effectiveness on flu symptoms.


I'm not aware of any studies showing that it has no effect either.

If I had to guess I would estimate a prayer to be as effective as a placebo, but to proclaim that as fact seems a bit unscientific.


There has been quite a bit of study of intercessory prayer. i.e. for people that don't know they are being prayed for.

No affects have been found.

> In 1872, the Victorian scientist Francis Galton made the first statistical analysis of third-party prayer. He hypothesized, partly as satire, that if prayer were effective, members of the British Royal Family would live longer than average, given that thousands prayed for their well-being every Sunday, and he prayed over randomized plots of land to see whether the plants would grow any faster, and found no correlation in either case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer


The wiki page contradicts your statement about "no effects".

there's been a number of studies showing lots of effects. Most studies seem to show slight positive effects from prayer, some show none and some show negative effects.


From the wikipage:

> Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect.

I'm an atheist so I take the "no effect" over the "small effect".


You don’t get to take the “no effect” over the “small effect” just because you’re an atheist. That is precisely what taking faith over data looks like!


My answers would be that we're arguing over statistical noise.

I take what I consider to be the simplest explanation in the absence of a credible alternative, that prayer does nothing when the recipient is unaware of it.

I take that view because I've never heard an alternative explaination that didn't appear to break the second law of thermodynamics.


extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

A magical, invisible, omnipresent, omnipotent "all known laws of nature defying"-being that answers prayers, requires significantly more evidence than a small effect in some meta study.


Absolutely. My point is that "I'm an atheist so I'll take the option that agrees with my personal beliefs" isn't a valid line of reasoning. You could symmetrically argue "I'm a catholic so I'll take the option that suggests there is an effect, albeit a small one". Now we're just arguing whose personal beliefs are right.

A more properly scientific line of reasoning would be to instead say that you'll assume the small-to-nonexistent effect is nonexistent until somebody produces a model capable of predicting the proposed small effect, or a myriad other arguments along the same general lines.


I think your opinion is wrong. Even placebo has a higher than 0% effectiveness.


I assume they're testing prayer without the recipient's knowledge, to control for placebo.


Sounds like an improper use of prayer then. The refrain "I'm praying for you" isn't meant to be some kind of conspicuous display of faith.


The person praying knows they are praying...


"the overall estimated effectiveness of seasonal influenza vaccine for preventing medically attended, laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection was 47%"

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6806a2.htm

Couldn't find the prayer stats.


Couldn't find the prayer stats.

I doubt there are any. It seems like a study fraught with problems, to put it mildly.


I can’t find the source now but I remember hearing about a study into the efficacy of prayer. Briefly, the study recruited several Christians to pray for patients in a hospital. The patients were split into three groups: a control group who weren’t prayed for, a group who were prayed for but who weren’t told, and a group who were prayed for and were informed that they were being prayed for. Allegedly the patients in the last group had the most issues with concern and depression, allegedly because they assumed that because they were being prayed for, they were in fact really seriously ill.


Years ago, I joined a health list for parents of children with a very serious medical condition. When I joined, the discussion involved a lot of "Our child is facing X surgery. Please pray for us."

The longer I was there, the more the discussion became "Our child is facing X surgery. Have you or your child had this surgery? Pros? Cons? Any good tips?"

Prayer very often means "It's hopeless. Humans can't fix this. Our only hope is divine intervention." And it's hugely depressing and disempowering.


Prayer is a human act of connection that has been going on longer than recorded history. Evolutionarily, if most people felt it was hopelessness, it wouldn’t have lasted so long.

Modern feelings of hopelessness and nihilism extremely common in the western world, many people are dealing with these feelings through medication. The effectiveness of regular prayer on mental health is surprising according to studies and demographic data.


I actually believe in the power of prayer and considered commenting on that specifically to try to avoid someone replying in this fashion. I didn't because this is HN and saying something like that can be a convenient excuse for a bunch of people to accuse you of being "woo," irrational, etc.

Let me rephrase that: When the people around you offer nothing but prayers, it's often because they don't believe there is any practical support they are capable of offering. In a group setting, if everyone offers you prayers and zero practical support, the signal it sends is pretty depressing.

To be clear, this was a support group for a deadly genetic disorder that frequently kills children before they reach adulthood. It is classified as a dread disease for a reason. The psychological effect of the diagnosis is huge.

It's practically a sign on the wall a la "All those who enter herein are damned." kind of thing.




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