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I don't think it's completely fair.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, especially when you need one.



On one hand yes, on the other hand if you want your patch to be included it's your job to make it reviewable and to make it pass all the various checks.

After all, we all lived long enough without their software, we can live without it a bit longer.

Yes it's a gift, but it's also code that has to be maintained and updated along with the kernel, so it's not really 100% a gift. If you then consider that they might keep on selling a proprietary version of the code (which - don't get me wrong - is 100% legit and fair) they might also get basically free labour: they could rebase onto the latest public gpl version, they might get notes of various issues and bugs...

Quite literally, it's free labour.


“Free as in puppy.”


It turns out someone (could be you?) wrote a Medium article about open-source software using the "free as in puppy" metaphor, although I don't think that they really used in the same way you are here with regards to a corporation using the open-source community to functionally receive free labor. I'm definitely going to add it to my mental list...

[1] https://medium.com/swlh/free-as-in-puppy-5b7eb1bf3908


Wasn’t me. Gifts bearing obligations come in a lot of shapes and sizes, I just always found the puppy metaphor very compelling and so I like to use it.

(As a mental exercise sometime, go to a pet store and figure out how much a “$12 hamster” costs once you get everything you need to set up and maintain a habitat.)


This is a wonderful description of "free" to go along with "free as in beer" and "free as in speech", thanks!


It's a beautiful metaphor.

Puppies can bring a lot of joy, but they certainly bring obligations.

Really spot on.


I've not heard this one before. Like a White Elephant but useful.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant


This is such a perfect addition to free as in beer/speech. Really quite surprised I haven't seen this more often, going to be using it haha


> f you want your patch to be included it's your job to make it reviewable

I have a mid-junior level co-worker who submits PRs that are excessively large. As best I've been able to determine, he's not especially good at managing the dependencies in his code, and he doesn't want to submit a broken PR, so his default is to wait until he gets everything written instead of breaking it down into smaller pieces.


I think their (the kernel maintainers’) position is that a single patch of 27000 lines of diffs is a bit of a nightmare to do code review on. I’m not sure if you took a look at the patch file (available at https://dl.paragon-software.com/ntfs3/ntfs3.patch ).

I think their point is ‘man, how are we going to divide this up amongst the maintainers? Who gets to check which function or call?’

Paragons response (more or less will fix in v2) https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/a8fa5b2b31b349f2858306...


Using language like "monstrosity" though, doesn't help.


The word has several meanings, and I took it to mean "frighteningly large" rather than any of the more negative ones. Perhaps not the best choice, but not overtly rude.


"Monstrosity" seems like a fair word, and to the point as well. The follow-up messages showed good will on the part of the kernel maintainers.


I guess that's not you that have to do the review.


Heh. I've certainly been handed stuff I didn't like. It's always been easier to work through if I avoided anything that came off as emotional or insulting.


Sorry, dad.

We’ll all try really hard to ignore our individual biology to satisfy the most sensitive sensibilities.

Cause that expectation is not manipulative at all.


Could you please stop posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments to HN? Also, could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...


If it's working code (assume it is) then requiring it to be turd-polished for the purposes of code review is absurd. Whoever is asking for that is either disingenuous or has no real experience as a software developer.


Taking up patches to code is also taking up vulnerabilities and bugs they carry. Even assuming good intentions, a gift of code is a gift with a burden attached, and should pass deep scrutiny before getting accepted.

Sad as it may sound, free code doesn't come for free.


This is like giving someone a litter of puppies as a gift and then walking away.

Hooray, free puppies. Now you just have to care for them for the next 10 years.


Paragon stated their intent to maintain and support the code in their initial email, and added themselves to the maintainer files.

There's no drama happening here. Paragon guys are trying to give it "properly", and linux guys want it "properly", and the only thing happening is defining "proper" in this context


Intent, promises and reality aren’t always aligned. Especially when given a slap dash of tens of thousands of lines of code that didn’t meet kernel contribution guidelines.


Thats true... but nothing has happened yet. No one has yet failed to hold up their end. All parties seem to want this to work -- it certainly isn't a dead drop.


Someone else mentioned their commitment.

Additionally, the driver is mature, as is the FS.


how is that a good comparison, when you're given puppies you are being made responsible for living creatures, If you're given a bunch of code you can literally just drop it.


> "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

Interesting you choose that metaphor. I can think of a particular gift horse where you would have seen Greek soldiers if you have looked into its mouth. :)


Working on someone else's code is no fun. I do it, when I get paid properly, but can't say I enjoy it. So I understand that not everyone is enthusiastic about that gift.

And who needs it? There are alternatives to read or write the occasional file (e.g. if you happen to have forgotten the Admin's password) of a NT box, but I can't say that I missed the ability to create new files in a NTFS. And why now? Surely those who actually needed that functionality, needed it years ago and meanwhile found some other solution. Perhaps those who actually need it still volunteer to ready that driver for inclusion into the kernel or sponsor someone who can?


NTFS-3g can create files and directories etc. on NTFS (albeit it doesn't do journaling, that's why it requires you to have a clean journal). Having a proper kernel driver is mostly about performance, not features. The current built-in kernel driver for NTFS is completely read-only though.


> The current built-in kernel driver for NTFS is completely read-only though.

Not quite:

> CONFIG_NTFS_RW:

> This enables the partial, but safe, write support in the NTFS driver.

> The only supported operation is overwriting existing files, without changing the file length. No file or directory creation, deletion or renaming is possible. Note only non-resident files can be written to you may find that some very small files (<500 bytes or so) cannot be written to.


> especially when you need one.

It's very debatable that Linux "needs" more support for a proprietary 25-year-old filesystem that is, in many ways, obsolete.




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