I get a long fantastically with my manager. We do happy hours every other Friday. I'd probably invite him to a BBQ at my house or something like that. But I don't think I consider him a friend. That said, I _am_ friends with some of my old managers, and (as a manager) with some of my old employees.

For current, active working relationships? Nope. We keep that professional distance. Once we no longer work together, I'm open to closer relationships with them. It usually doesn't happen, though.

The truth of the matter is that the thing most of us have in common with one another is that we work together, and once that's no longer true, there's just not that much more to the relationship, and so we inevitably drift apart.

I'm the same way. I'm friends with previous managers and reports but I try to keep current ones professional. Even if there are no playing favorites I want to avoid any perception of playing favorites for myself, my reports and my managers.

Not to sound glib, but this is part of what LinkedIn and even Facebook to a lesser degree is for. I keep LinkedIn to professional relationships and Facebook is mostly family and casual relationships (old HS friends etc).

I am friends with prior managers, but not anyone currently in management tree above/below me. I am friends with one coworker currently.

as a manager, i have this exact rapport w/my small team: we're all super friendly, but definitely not friends. i'd invite them all to a BBQ at my place in a heartbeat!

outside of my current job, i'm still friends w/some old managers and reports... we're all geographically distributed so it's hard to keep in touch w/everyone. :)

I think it’s dangerous to be friends with bosses, it can cause you to lose perspective on what the relationship between you and your work actually is: you sell your labour, usually for far less than it is worth to the company.

I believe it is healthier to have a stark perspective on what is actually happening in employer/employee relationships, and keep work as something that I do in order to be able to afford a place to live and food to eat and nothing more. Whether I enjoy whatever job I have at the time is secondary to this: it’s a bonus, but again I try very hard not to let my job become a part of how I see myself.

If you let yourself become “friends” with your boss I think you’re in danger of blurring these lines and getting into the strange position where not only must you do something you don’t necessarily want to do, but you must do it or let a “friend” down. This seems like a fast-track way of burning out.

I hope that I'm selling my labor to my company for less than it's worth. Otherwise, I've put a giant target on my back for elimination. The company is taking a risk by employing me and paying me no matter what I produce; I don't mind at all at they make a profit on the transaction and seek to keep it that way.

Exactly this! There is no reason why both laborer and company can't be happy. Work is a mutually beneficial arrangement and as a manager I get to make sure that is true for both parties! I hate when people have the mentality that life, work, or happiness is a zero sum game.

disagree. if you think you're being over paid you probably aren't. If company is paying you an exorbitant amount of money it probably means they think you are indisposable.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but this is the other side of your perspective.

If you are at $BigCorp there's probably only a rough correlation between what you are paid and what you are worth.

If that the correlation is better between how much that manager likes you and who you are related to

How does that mentality serve you when it's time to negotiate your salary or benefits?

IF you're worth way more than you're getting paid, negotiations should be super easy. This is probably a terrible analogy, but think of working like mining diamonds and the employer like selling cut stones. If you mine huge diamonds with fairly regular frequency asking to get paid more is a no brainer for you and the company.

It's served me fairly well so far. The key isn't to minimize my ask; the key is maximize my value and then ask for something where I'm making good money and the company is making that amount plus all the benefits and other costs plus a margin on my labor so everyone leaves the transaction better off. The last thing I want is for a company in the business of employing @sokoloff to be in a money-losing business thereby.

A real friend would understand if you told them you don't want to do something. As a manager I'm not super interested in making people do things they don't want to do anyways. Obviously its unavoidable sometimes, but I think most employees also understand this.

Your manager is not your employer it’s an important distinction. Your manager is someone who can get you what you want(more money) at no personal cost to him/her self. Moreover having someone loyal in higher positions is benifical to the manager as well.

I think the major hangup for this discussion is that each of us probably have a different definition of what counts as a friend. I think there's certainly a gradient between "friendly" and "friend", but I honestly don't think the exact label matters much. For the sake of my discussion, I will consider a "friend" someone that I would want to hang out with 1-on-1.

But I think there are certain boundaries that both sides must be respectful of. For example, as a manager you need to make it clear to your employee/friend when you are communicating as a manager vs as a friend. That distinction should not be left ambiguous as that will make things potentially awkward if there is a disconnect.

As an employee, you need to respect that fact that your manager cannot tell you everything, and understanding that being their friend doesn't mean they will give you any special treatment. You should be extra careful to avoid this, as your manager will be sensitive if they notice you are trying to take advantage of the friendship in any way.

In the end, I think these boundaries can cause the friendship to not progress past a certain point if you are actively working together, mainly because it is just extra work to move past a certain level of friendship if so.

I think you’ve nailed it.

It’s something that’s possible, but very difficult and it requires a lot of additional work to keep it going and progress the friendship.

I like to think of my manager as working for me, rather than the other way around. I never receive orders from them, nor do I feel I need to impress or “perform” for them. But, they do have go out and find information for me, or do stuff to unblock me. Plus, it’s their responsibility to keep me around and keep me happy. At the very least, it’s a partnership, so that makes it easier to have a personal relationship.

Absolutely agree it’s a partnership where both succeed together. If things are working well my manager is busting his but to promote me and I’m busting mine to make him look good so he can get his promotion.

I've been a manager for only 7 years now, but so far I've actively avoided managing personal friends.

Good work colleagues, having a pint after work once in a while, sure. But I wouldn't manage people I spend time with on the weekends.

I can easily see myself either being too harsh on them to compensate, or inadvertently giving them a pass instead of feedback when necessary.

There are places where people are more friends, even with their managers. Sometimes it cannot be avoided. It can be great or bad. Great is rare, and managers cracking the whip makes people work harder, not smarter. If I get the choice, I prefer being friendly with eachother. There's no need to be mean, and there are ways to convey messages without condescending arrogance or unsolicited advice. Being friendly means a safe space to lift spirits and spread new ways of working and thinking. If you think somewhat similarly, you can even be allies and play to eachother's strengths. If your manager cannot ally with you, you should seriously consider finding somewhere else that got your back. Don't lean on it though. It can be gone in an instant, and you should stand on your own feet as much as you can.

I suspect things are different, where I've been (UK, and Finland). But I'd expect to become friends with colleagues, take children on playdates, etc.

Often times colleagues will go for beer after work, especially on Fridays, and otherwise hang out at lunchtimes. Here in Finland I've sat naked in a sauna with upper-management, drinking beer, and relaxing.

Sure they're often not the people I'd expect to become friends with, but by virtue of having similar interests and spending a lot of time together you'll often have good relationships - not distant-ones - with colleagues.

(It is worth noting, for example, just how many romantic relationships start in the workplace ..)

Yep. Last four jobs. In 3 of them, we were friends beforehand. Almost got hired by a fifth.

Huh I just noticed I have a tendency to work for friends.

It is much like a marriage. There’s stuff that has to get done, and you have to work together to get it done. And like marriage, moving on can be tricky.

Trickier is befriending higher-ups. Keeping confidences is important when you know before your boss does.

I’m still friends with 2 of the 3 former bosses, so it is possible to maintain a relationship.

I have an interesting professional and personal relationship with the boss - he secured me a contract with one of his clients so not only do we have a 9-5 together, but also work for the same client in the afternoon. Personally we're fairly close and like to talk about deep, risky topics you'd normally reserve for close friends although we only get together maybe once a month.

I sometimes wonder if professional distancing/shyness varies by region in the USA and the world - mine seems to lack all professional distance compared to my coastal peers. Someone I know worked in Brazil and they seem to go the extreme end of shunning distance with professional peers - traveling long distances to go their subordinates' weddings and such.

All human relations are increasingly subject to the criteria of «is it good for the corporation?». Or, is it good for me financially. Which, considering how work is increasingly central to our lives is unfortunate. We’re Charlie Chaplin in Modern Times without the factory.

I'm friends with everyone I know, including my managers, if I've had some sort of extended contact. I went kayaking with my last manager for instance. I've even made friends during interviews (where I didn't take the job).

I've had "managers" that I've only talked to once a month that I didn't become friends with but that's to be expected.

A good manager needs to be able to have really hard conversations, including firing people.

It's great to be close, but it's important both people are fully aware of the power dynamic, and that it is real.

Your manager should be like a coach on a sporting team (in more ways than one) - you can go hang out after the game, but during practice they will wear you down. The important point here is the context - it's when and where.

Also, keep in mind, your job is just your job, and people are more important than a job. You'll have other jobs, and other managers, so if you value the friendship, go for it.

I've always taken the stance that I don't mix personal and work. That way I have a clean separation between the two. Rough days at work, I can shift focus to a different social circle. However, a few years ago I joined a team and we all got along too well. It became a group of friends that worked and played together. It was great in so many ways and after 2 years we all parted ways.

I doubt I'll ever experience something like it again and we still are friends but we all wish we had a team dynamic like we used to have.

Wrote a blog post on this a while back[0]. Short answer: no, not friends with my manager, nor my subordinates. We get along great, and have a good time at work-social events, but that's the end.

[0] https://softbiz.io/posts/why-i-am-not-facebook-friends-with-...

I disagree with a lot the points in your article. The things you listed as cons with having office "friends" all sound like things no real "friend" would do. I don't generally use social media, so maybe I don't understand that aspect, but honestly if someone came to work and gossiped about me, they wouldn't be considered a friend. This article seems to specifically mean Facebook friends so I guess my opinion isn't super relevant as I don't use Facebook.

I prefer to work for managers who recognize me as a person who can grow in the team. I get a lot of support because I foster a relationship that our combined success is important. Is this friendship? No. But it’s worked out very well. We both have our own friends. However, I haven’t ruled it out - we just aren’t a good match (often there are gaps between us in life stage).

I'm friends with some ex-managers as well as my ex-reports. I've hired reports to new companies when I moved before. I still talk to them over text/slack since our department dissolved in the recession. I was hoping I'd be in a position to hire them all at a new place by now, but it hasn't worked out.

My current manager was a peer until we decided to combine teams and for me to back to more of an IC role.

It's been weird for me ever since. Not friends. In fact, sometimes I've felt he's had the exact opposite of my interest at heart.

Yes, I consider myself friends with my manager.

I also consider myself friends with 2 of my 5 direct reports.

These are people that I've known for half a decade or more, though. Also, I think the manager aspect came after the friendship aspect in most cases.

I suppose you can't really answer that question for sure until you're fired. Do you still feel like friends? Then you are friends.

I’m not friends with my boss, nor do I want to be.

I have a coworker who regularly chats with our boss on social media and it bothers me.

I feel like it’s the road to nepotism.

And it is and it will will work in his favor

You cannot be truly friends with someone when there's an imbalance of power.

I'm good friends while I'm getting raises.

Your relationship should ideally be convivial, fun, mutually informative and beneficial for you both. You should be getting both guidance navigating your company's politics from your manager, and overall career growth by working on their team. Sometimes they won't be technically stronger than you, but in those cases they should be helping you grow in other ways (giving talks, mentoring others, taking on leadership tasks). In cases where they are technically more proficient you should be learning from them, perhaps not actively but at least they're pointing you in the right direction. During all this you're enjoying spending time working with this person professionally.

In return what you offer your manager is someone who's capable of doing work and becoming increasingly capable of working with less direction. Eventually you take ownership of initiatives. You should advocate for your team where appropriate, but never fanatically. You should be brave enough to speak up if you're worried about their course of action.

The main dynamic is this: In return for them helping you grow and navigate, you're trying your best to be someone who's self-sufficient, capable and someone they don't have to worry about.

There are a few things you should definitely not be doing. You shouldn't be spending too much time with them outside of work (an occasional happy hour or office event is a-ok). You shouldn't be getting drunk with them. You shouldn't be getting counseling or guidance on intensely personal issues like romantic relationships or personal life goals. Your relationship should pass a simple smell test: if you were to tell someone you were engaging in a behavior with your boss would they be shocked or surprised. If so it's probably not appropriate. Here's an example: "I eat lunch with my boss a few times a week." Seems fine to me. "I've eaten lunch with my boss every day for the last six months" Seems a bit off to me. Of course different people will have different limits-- it's up to you to set healthy boundaries that work for you.

Finally, when one of you moves on from the company, feel free to have any type of relationship you want with the manager. You're both now two independent people. I would still overall caution from becoming too intimate with them, but it's your life and you should trust yourself to steward it correctly. The reason I caution is that it's because you really don't know this person on a deeper level, and you might be surprised with what you find out. Most likely you'll maintain some professional friendship, perhaps even help each other out for several years, but after that lose touch. Ideally, you'll always look back on working with this person as a time of great fun, enjoyment and growth.

A manager who is your friend is either a bad manager or a bad friend. One day he will have to decide between you and his own managers interests.

I don't think that necessarily true. I am friends with a couple of my direct reports, but we have a distinction between work relationship and personal. When we are at work it is business, they understand my job duties and I am clear with my requirements as a manager. I have even had to fire a work friend before and we are still real life friends. I think the main distinction is to set boundaries from the get go. Work is work, personal is personal.

Overall, however I would say that my personal relationship with my reports has led to phenomenal gains on both sides. On the personal side its always great to have people who understand your job and can relate. On the business side it brings a touch of humanity so that you're not just a rote machine making decisions, (contrary to some people's belief I see this as better). I think a lot of manager believe they can't make exceptions to rules for any reason, but I find that workers are far more productive and loyal to the company when they are treated with compassion and understanding.

This really gravely misunderstands how teams are formed in a lot of growing companies.

5 new engineers start fresh out of college. They work directly under some VP of engineering. They become friends, as young people of like interests who work together every day are wont to do.

The company grows! Now you need to organize into an actual team. So someone becomes a team lead, and others stay ICs.

Do they now divorce themselves of friendship, since one is a manager and the others are not? No, that's stupid. They are friends where one is a manager.

Source: myself, and hundreds of thousands of other people who have been friends with their manager.

And the friends get benefits, that’s life as much as people here don’t want to admit it, life ain’t fair that way.

Our careers are longer games than a single job. We're not robots and relationships in the industry that are not purely self-interested are important. "Friend" is always going to change with the context, but it's worth having a personal side to the relationship.

Sounds like bad advice to me. My manager is my friend and is generally a strong advocate/influence on my success. If forced to make a decision that favors the company over me, I don't see any need to consider that a betrayal or a forfeiture of friendship. To put it at an extreme, I don't require unbridled nepotism to be happy with a manager's treatment of me.

He’s not a robot either sometimes he will make choices that favor you over the company because overall that might be a better choice for him and that works in your favor.

yes. you are absolutely correct