I find really, really baffling the general position in the US regarding unions. It is like there's a general discourse that they are a bad thing, just like with "that other" thing (cough socialism cough).
This is even more strange when you find out about police unions - that are widespread -, and what their power is. From my point of view actions of police union are usually borderline "mob-like" (as in, I mostly hear about them when they save the necks of abusing and / or corrupted officers). It's like people think unions are generally bad, but then they have police unions everywhere and nobody bats an eye... even when their actions are on the shadowy side of things.
I didn't know about the film industry, thought (Even thought I remember about the writer's guild strike of a few years back).
Just like democracy, unions might be the worst solution, except for all the others.
Just a few opinions here, focusing on the negatives to try to explain the 'general discourse that they are a bad thing'.
It's in part because the US has a storied history of corrupt unions and their affiliation with the mafia and organized crime.
There's a related facet in that, to an outside observer, the UAW chased American automakers out of the country through unsustainable demands for wages and benefits.
Another part comes from the direct experience of many Americans as members of unions and some portion (we can argue percentages) of those people arrive at the conclusion that the union at best isn't worth the dues and at worse is pathological, in some cases by protecting underperformers and in others by lacking a spine when it is needed. This is where my personal experience the Teamsters and vicarious experience via my wife's membership in the NEA landed me.
It's also in part because many Americans have direct experience working alongside unions and some (again we can argue percentages) become frustrated with the rules and the pace. I've had some experience with this in the HVAC industry and in home building. I was already tainted a bit by my experience as a member above so I'm sure there was some confirmation bias here.
Lastly America has a pretty strong ethos, or myth if you prefer, of individualism and some unions and union members lay on a very thick collectivist twang in their communication that can be off-putting.
I'm not ideologically opposed to unions in any way, I just haven't seen one do a great job in the US. I hope Kickstarter is able to pull off a good example and am all for workers shooting their shot if they feel it is a good idea. I'm just not particularly optimistic.
> I find really, really baffling the general position in the US regarding unions. It is like there's a general discourse that they are a bad thing, just like with "that other" thing (cough socialism cough).
I'm from the 'birthplace' of US Auto unions. This part of your reply is actually a good place to start the explanation, because that's actually the perception of some other unions, and at times there is historical context to that.
> From my point of view actions of police union are usually borderline "mob-like" (as in, I mostly hear about them when they save the necks of abusing and / or corrupted officers).
Two points:
- The UAW and Teamsters in particular had ties to actual mob organizations in the past. "Jimmy Hoffa" is a name to look up if you'd like an example of what some people think of when they think of unions.
- The examples you give of corruption/status quo in police unions are present in the Auto shops as well; whenever I heard a story from an auto worker about why 'they' did not like the unions, it was usually a story like what you said; a worker getting 'protected' by the union when their actions were unsafe. IOW even some of the people -in- the union see it as a broken institution.
The mafia influence over the Teamsters Union was at its height in the late 1960s, early 1970s. Well, well after Taft-Hartley.
The UAW and related issues absolutely killing the domestic US auto industry is late 1970s, early 1980s. It wasn't just unions there, but that was a major contributing factor.
Taft-Hartley was a decisive stroke in the effort to defang and depoliticize labor unions in the US (e.g., outlawing solidarity strikes and political strikes, expulsion of communists). Should we be surprised that kneecapping the militant labor struggle led to the corruption of its leftover power structures?
We should definitely abolish police unions, though.
Hey, sorry for not replying in a timely manner. I made the comment above and then was dragged by work for the last 3 days, and completely forgot about this.
I got a lot of good other comments, but the reason I'm replying to you is this: You miss understood what I said. (My bad?)
I was not saying that unions are good, or that unions are bad.
I was just stating how contradictory the opinion on unions is on the US. A large % of people think that unions are bad, but they accept as a matter of fact that police unions exists.
The fact that _they_ exists, means - IMO - that their associates get benefits from that, more often than not, considering how widespread police unions are.
I don't think that unions are inherently bad or good; I think that depends on the culture of the country.
In my country, almost everybody is in a union, and they do a general good job of fighting for salary increases on a yearly basis.
The downside of unions here, is that the truck drivers unions have lobbied extensively over the years against new rail roads, and that goes against the well being of the general population.
I follow a "UK Legal Advice" subreddit [1] (I don't live in the UK, but I work for a company there" and more often than not the advice given there is "Adhere to a union". Basically, unions good / bad depends on the country.
This is even more strange when you find out about police unions - that are widespread -, and what their power is. From my point of view actions of police union are usually borderline "mob-like" (as in, I mostly hear about them when they save the necks of abusing and / or corrupted officers). It's like people think unions are generally bad, but then they have police unions everywhere and nobody bats an eye... even when their actions are on the shadowy side of things.
I didn't know about the film industry, thought (Even thought I remember about the writer's guild strike of a few years back).
Just like democracy, unions might be the worst solution, except for all the others.