>Chinese feudalism is well documented back to about 1000 BCE. It is not unreasonable to assume that this is true for most of the cultures at the time;
Well, depends on your definition of feudalism I guess. If you ignore all political differences, I am not sure what core economic difference would cause to group the system in the Middle Ages Europe with Fengjian putting aside the Roman Empire.
>But really; the point I'm trying to make is that the capitalistic mode and thus capitalistic exchanges are really something new in the history of mankind. Before the agricultural feudalism people weren't living in capitalism for sure.
For sure, it is quite different, but it is also more similar to the past that people usually imagine. Money, global trade, private property, even public-private partnerships in some sense (in Ancient Rome there were publicans, private subcontractors for public projects). You don't need capitalsim for any of that even though these things mostly didn't really exist in feudal realms.
>Rome is an interesting exception. And it really is just that; an exception. Yes, there were vast trading networks, bringing goods from all exotic places to the center of the universe, hundreds of ships transporting tons and tons of loot and slaves and culture. But only a very, very small percentage of the Roman populace was ever involved in such trades. Even in Rome (the republic/empire, not the city), most of the population was living in farmsteads, producing most of what they consumed themselves, trading surplus for additional calories or goods.
But it is not really an exception. Every centralized government did something similar, the difference is that the Rome was the most succesfful one, it produced lots of written artifacts and it is the closest one to the European mind. If you look at the Bronze Age states, they are also very "modern", but the problem is that we don't have much info about them. They had complex regionals supply chains, trade, even infrastructure like sanitation systems.
Of course people bought less stuff in Ancient times simply because there were less stuff that wasn't crops. I am not saying that there was capitalism in the past or that nothing have changed. My point is that many things people attribute as properties of hypercapitalism are not really that special. If food production technologies wouldn't be so advanced and we still had to rely to 80% of people working in semi-substistence farming (SSF) would this really make our world less "hypercapitalistic" by any measure people use for this label? (many people actually still do SSF, in Europe there are still over 5 million such farmers.) Doesn't this make hypercapitalism simply a measure of advancement of farming technologies? It wouldn't really change the everyday life dynamics of people who aren't engaged in such activities.
Society is heterogenous and by such weird measure everyone who didn't engage in subsistence lived in hypercapitalism for thousands of years, while people in Europe who rely on semi-subsistence farming are not even in capitalism; of course from the point of their lived experience. But to me it seems absurd, it is the totality of human relations that defines the social structure, the network of relations. Many people in the past relied on subsitence farming, but they lived alongside people that didn't and this certainly affected them and vice versa. And I don't see how I can say that modern society is hypercapitalistic when not only governments tax the corporations but the whole international community creates regulation and controls these companies in a way that would benefit the states.
>And again; Rome in this shape existed for less than four hundred years. And for most of the world, Rome wasn't terribly important after that.
Right, but after Early Middle Ages many states had many similar things. There were many so-called "Medieval renessainces" in Europe.
>That's the time when the term 'capitalism' is termed. And I think it is quite different from what we have today; nowadays; most of all exchanges are capitalistic ones, for much of the population all the exchanges are exclusively capitalistic. This exclusivity is something that is new (since about ~70 years). And it is this exclusivity that I think is something that was neither obvious not expected when 'capitalism' was first being used to refer to systems that satisfy our three core properties.
But that's not really true. Many services you receive are not capitalistic on surface: the roads, the healthcare in most countries, education. In a country like Norway the government commands over 50% of GDP, i.e. it tells people what to do, what services to provide, to whom to redistribute money. There is little capitalistic about that. Again, compare it to company towns and governments with less than 10% of GDP spending in 18th century.
I'm answering several paragraphs at once, because here the point of contention really comes down to - to paraphrase - "But really, didn't we have capitalism before that?"
> They had complex regionals supply chains, trade, even infrastructure like sanitation systems. [...] Society is heterogenous and by such weird measure everyone who didn't engage in subsistence lived in hypercapitalism for thousands of years [...] Many people in the past relied on subsitence farming, but they lived alongside people that didn't and this certainly affected them and vice versa. [...] My point is that many things people attribute as properties of hypercapitalism are not really that special. If food production technologies wouldn't be so advanced and we still had to rely to 80% of people working in semi-substistence farming (SSF) would this really make our world less "hypercapitalistic" by any measure people use for this label? (
Not quite, because - as we already defined, you need three things for capitalism: (1) private ownership of the means of production (2) labor market (3) commodity market. For most of time time until back to the dawn of apes, we didn't really have a labor market. This is only something that arose out of the fatalities of the black death that ravaged Europe and killed almost a third of the population. [0] This was the beginning of the end for feudalism in much of Europe, since for the first time, people had a reason to travel for better work, since suddenly - due to to lack of people - wages were rising and landlords were competing for sharecroppers to crop their fields.
This is the new phenomenon. The mobile labor market. This is why we never had capitalism before that time. As I said; I'm willing to make an exception for the Roman manufacturies, since there you had some kind of labor market-ish. A teensy-tiny one.
But other than that, a labor market really never existed. People were born in their villages, they grew old and they died that. If you were a weaver, you wove your weaving and then sold it. There was no labor market, you owned your loom and did your own thing and starved trying to do it.
After the upheavals of the Black Death, many feudal realms introduced (or reinstated or reinforced) laws forbidding the movement of people without special permission. In Germany, England and France this only started to change after the 1750. For Russia it took over a hundred years longer to get there.
So, before that time, there really was no labor market. And without labor market, no capitalism.
> Right, but after Early Middle Ages many states had many similar things. There were many so-called "Medieval renessainces" in Europe.
I'm not sure how these would fit in here. The Medieval Renaissances were cultural and artistic in nature. Nowhere during Carolingian time can you find a Manufactury like you would have seen during the Roman times, with hundreds of workers living on or nearby the Manufactury grounds in Insulae operated by the manufactory owner or with branded corporations setting up manufacturing subsidies. No kidding, they did that. [1]
> But that's not really true. Many services you receive are not capitalistic on surface: the roads, the healthcare in most countries, education. [...] And I don't see how I can say that modern society is hypercapitalistic when not only governments tax the corporations but the whole international community creates regulation and controls these companies in a way that would benefit the states.
This is not about how powerful one single corporation or one single government is. It is about the system that they both operate in. Because as it is, both governments and corporations are participants in a game of Hypercapitalism.
Well, depends on your definition of feudalism I guess. If you ignore all political differences, I am not sure what core economic difference would cause to group the system in the Middle Ages Europe with Fengjian putting aside the Roman Empire.
>But really; the point I'm trying to make is that the capitalistic mode and thus capitalistic exchanges are really something new in the history of mankind. Before the agricultural feudalism people weren't living in capitalism for sure.
For sure, it is quite different, but it is also more similar to the past that people usually imagine. Money, global trade, private property, even public-private partnerships in some sense (in Ancient Rome there were publicans, private subcontractors for public projects). You don't need capitalsim for any of that even though these things mostly didn't really exist in feudal realms.
>Rome is an interesting exception. And it really is just that; an exception. Yes, there were vast trading networks, bringing goods from all exotic places to the center of the universe, hundreds of ships transporting tons and tons of loot and slaves and culture. But only a very, very small percentage of the Roman populace was ever involved in such trades. Even in Rome (the republic/empire, not the city), most of the population was living in farmsteads, producing most of what they consumed themselves, trading surplus for additional calories or goods.
But it is not really an exception. Every centralized government did something similar, the difference is that the Rome was the most succesfful one, it produced lots of written artifacts and it is the closest one to the European mind. If you look at the Bronze Age states, they are also very "modern", but the problem is that we don't have much info about them. They had complex regionals supply chains, trade, even infrastructure like sanitation systems.
Of course people bought less stuff in Ancient times simply because there were less stuff that wasn't crops. I am not saying that there was capitalism in the past or that nothing have changed. My point is that many things people attribute as properties of hypercapitalism are not really that special. If food production technologies wouldn't be so advanced and we still had to rely to 80% of people working in semi-substistence farming (SSF) would this really make our world less "hypercapitalistic" by any measure people use for this label? (many people actually still do SSF, in Europe there are still over 5 million such farmers.) Doesn't this make hypercapitalism simply a measure of advancement of farming technologies? It wouldn't really change the everyday life dynamics of people who aren't engaged in such activities.
Society is heterogenous and by such weird measure everyone who didn't engage in subsistence lived in hypercapitalism for thousands of years, while people in Europe who rely on semi-subsistence farming are not even in capitalism; of course from the point of their lived experience. But to me it seems absurd, it is the totality of human relations that defines the social structure, the network of relations. Many people in the past relied on subsitence farming, but they lived alongside people that didn't and this certainly affected them and vice versa. And I don't see how I can say that modern society is hypercapitalistic when not only governments tax the corporations but the whole international community creates regulation and controls these companies in a way that would benefit the states.
>And again; Rome in this shape existed for less than four hundred years. And for most of the world, Rome wasn't terribly important after that.
Right, but after Early Middle Ages many states had many similar things. There were many so-called "Medieval renessainces" in Europe.
>That's the time when the term 'capitalism' is termed. And I think it is quite different from what we have today; nowadays; most of all exchanges are capitalistic ones, for much of the population all the exchanges are exclusively capitalistic. This exclusivity is something that is new (since about ~70 years). And it is this exclusivity that I think is something that was neither obvious not expected when 'capitalism' was first being used to refer to systems that satisfy our three core properties.
But that's not really true. Many services you receive are not capitalistic on surface: the roads, the healthcare in most countries, education. In a country like Norway the government commands over 50% of GDP, i.e. it tells people what to do, what services to provide, to whom to redistribute money. There is little capitalistic about that. Again, compare it to company towns and governments with less than 10% of GDP spending in 18th century.