Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

It's not illegal to just cookie-wall your whole site without options, or is it?

This site here e.g. does it: https://www.spiegel.de/

imprint is still reachable, but if you want to read this news site you'll have to allow all the tracking crap.



The DPA (Lower Saxony) says it's not. German link: https://lfd.niedersachsen.de/startseite/themen/internet/date...

They call it Nudging.

I might translate this to a proper blog post in English.


I noticed that too. A lot of German media started doing this ("pur" subscription vs "full" subscription which also gives access to additional paywalled articles). I would be surprised if these huge publishers didn't do their legal legwork - or they are doing it just waiting for a test lawsuit to clarify the reading of the law.


the freemium in itself is certainly legal. In the case of spiegel though it's really accepting tracking for the free articles. sz.de e.g. has the usual toggle option for the different cookies.


A big part of GDPR is that you can't just say "by using our site you agree to forgo your GDPR rights" or "click here to agree not to invoke your GDPR rights" or anything like that.


And you are allowed to give data to any other party if they sign to agree with gdpr and you want their services...


Accessing the site with javascript switched off seems to defeat this.


It is illegal, they cannot offer free but tracked vs paid and untracked service. I guess GDPR enforcement didn't reach them yet.


weird. they are well known in germany


I think enforcement is not there yet, here’s another very similar example: https://iapp.org/news/a/ico-tells-washington-post-it-offers-...


Yes you can, you can provide an add supported service with tracking and a paid one without.

Both via legitimate interest and consent.


The service cannot be dependent on the acceptance of third party cookies, no. That is, the service provided to those that reject third party cookies cannot be worse (slower or incomplete, for example) compared to the visitors who accept cookies.

So you can supply an ad supported version and a paid version without ads, but you cannot require that those that choose the ad supported version must accept tracking ads.


I have gotten confirmation from several DPAs that state a very different interpretation.

You can’t segregate the same service, two distinct services one that is provided with ads that include 3rd party cookies and a separate paid service that does not is perfectly fine.

What you cannot do is to create multiple tiers in a free service based on different levels of tracking.


That sounds like an extremely business friendly interpretation of the regulation. Creating a separate service (the paid one) shouldn’t in any way change the circumstances for the first service (the one with ads).

What you are describing sounds like a business can simply declare “well untargeted ads doesn’t pay enough so the options are tracking ads or paid subscriptions”. The regulation shouldn’t and doesn’t let a site make that decision. It would make it completely useless!


DPAs including the German on are quite “business” friendly unless it will be challenged in court.

You can’t force someone to provide their business at a loss.

As long as you don’t penalize or segregate users based on their decision alone it does not run afoul of GDPR, neither does blocking someone completely you just need to have a valid business reason for doing that and it has to be tied to the nature of the service including how it’s funded.


> You can’t force someone to provide their business at a loss.

Of course not. But no one is forced to provide the ad funded service at all.


No but it’s a valid business model.

It’s not upto the DPAs to regulate things at this level just like you could run an astrology service and collect PII to give people readings, astrology is horseshit but you won’t run into issues with GDPR if you request users to give you their birthday and email to get spammed with BS on a daily basis.


> you could run an astrology service and collect PII to give people readings

Processing or possibly even keeping a birthdate for an astrology newsletter is clearly a legitiamate interest for the subscriber of that newsletter.

> but it’s a valid business model.

What is? Showing ads to provide a service is a valid business model yes. Showing tracking ads or blocking those who don't accept the ads - no.

But "I need to show the ads to keep the lights on" is NOT a legitimate interest to the visitor. The reason for handling the personal infrmation needs to be a hard requirement to provide service itself. Not merely part of the "business model". You cannot set up a separate service (paid subscription) and argue that because that other service exists, your ad-funded service deserves special exceptions from the GDPR e.g. that it can show ads which are tracked or else users are blocked. It's pretty clear in the regulation that "cookie walls" aren't allowed, just like pre-checked/assumed consent isn't.


Legitimate interest as defined in the GDPR isn’t that of the user, it’s that of the business.

You can provide users with a binary choice, as long as it’s all or nothing and the free service and paid service are separate it’s acceptable.


Legitimate interest can be for anything (user, business, society as a whole) but it's still highly questoinable whether sharing peoples PII for ads alone is a legitimate interest (It's not clear it isn't either - the text is deliberately vague). What's clear is that you can't show people "by entering you accept to". You have to show them an opt out and if they opt out they need to get a service that is as good as if they opt in. Binary choice shouldn't help - if that has been a judgement it's very dubious imho.


No they absolutely do not need to get a service, you cannot degrade a service but you can very much make it dependent on consent, heck you don’t even need consent it just prevents you from having to do an LIA you can simply inform the user of what is going on and allow them the option not to use the service.

I too thought GDPR is much stricter but in reality it’s not. Both the ICO and several continental DPAs including the German one allow for binary choice.


I was careful in my post to write tracked vs untracked. Sure they can show the ads, just don’t track me unless I consent.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: