(Posting as top level since this is getting discussed in several sub threads)
I'm Egyptian (though haven't lived there in over a decade) . Many of us loved this display. We are proud of our heritage and proud that the world can see and appreciate it the way we do.
That said, many of us also have qualms about the local politics and the authoritarian way the country is being run. It's possible to both appreciate this display and be critical of the politics. It's not easy because the figureheads of those politics were so heavily involved here. Good on them for at least doing this piece well.
This inner conflict between loving our country and history vs. being dismayed about its current leadership seems to be fate of almost everyone around. Even in democratic countries. We have less violence, but the extent of bribery, cronyism and incompetence that is documented by the media every day is disheartening.
I imagine there's like a 99% chance the poster is related to every mummy shown, both because it's been millennia and Egyptian nobility surely married throughout what became Persia.
> Egypt held a five-mile procession of 22 ancient mummies in Cairo, as they were moved from a museum where they'd been for over a century to the new National Museum of Egyptian Civilization Saturday night.
This is not to be confused with the Grand Egyptian Museum, which is due to open later this year (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Egyptian_Museum). The GEM's opening has been highly anticipated (and delayed) for years. Actually even a lot of my Egyptian friends thought the mummies were being moved to the GEM.
I went to Egypt in 2012 and visited the Royal Mummy Room in the Egyptian Museum, it was unforgettable and one of the top highlights of my trip.
I had seen mummies before at the Louvre in Paris and at the British Museum in London, but this was on a whole other level. It was a small climate-controlled room where you could see the unwrapped mummies from a few inches away. Most are incredibly well-preserved and you can clearly recognize the similarities between family members, with distinct traits still perfectly recognizable after over 3,000 years.
It was an incredible experience and I would highly recommend it to anyone who gets the opportunity to visit, once we can actually travel again. It's worth hiring an accredited guide (as opposed to someone you meet at random), they're very knowledgeable and speak English well.
Ramses II was one of the greatest Kings in human history, ranking with Alexander, Genghis Khan and Napoleon. He lived to 94 years old ruling at least 67 years. He built a huge number of monuments. He had at least 52 sons with a special tomb complex for them (just beginning to be excavated). He is thought to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus, but there is little supporting evidence.
His mummy is very impressive. Appears totally regal and in command. I felt in the presence of a great man when I saw it.
Looks like most people are enthusiastic about this parade as they should be... However I can’t shake off the Genesis melody “The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging” as I read about it.
A coincidence was that it was on same day as the traditional showing of the Ten Commandments movie on Easter Saturday. Two of the Kings Seti I and Ramses II are depicted in the that movie.
Not that I agree with Salafists at all, but it's odd that many people's reaction to this is to mention them.
To a large degree, local so-called Salafists (at least the politicized ones) have been largely silenced, imprisoned, and otherwise "dealt with" since 2013.
I know what happens to prominent Salafists under Sisi, but that is no guarantee of future development.
Most of them have survived with their heads temporarily down, but not off. A massive reservoir of angry manpower waiting for the moment that the regime starts going wobbly.
If the history of totalitarian movements in Europe can be used as an analogy, the question of "who is going to rule Egypt in twenty years" is far from settled.
I spent two months hitchhiking around Egypt in 2008, after coming down from Europe and passing through the countries along the way. I found Egypt to be by far the most Salafist-leaning of the countries I passed through, far stricter in its understanding of Islam than Turkey or the Levant. When mentioning the Ancient Egyptian past to the average Egyptian (i.e. not some Cairo elites), the response was usually that even talking about all that was haram.
So, when a person's firsthand experience of Egypt was like that, naturally one of the first things that will come to mind is “Hmm, I wonder how the local Egyptian people felt about this procession.” I do find it hard to believe that the population has become less strict in its interpretation since 2013, even if their room for applying their beliefs politically has narrowed.
Sorry you had that experience. I grew up in Egypt and don't think it's representative. Some regions might be like that, or you may have gotten unlucky.
A non-trivial part of the Egyptian population is employed in tourism. It's not all about Ancient Egypt, but that's the main attraction, so many people not only are OK discussing it, they're making a living out of it. Ancient Egyptian history is taught in public school curriculum, etc. Even the national soccer team's nickname is the "Pharaohs".
I feel my experience was representative, because Egypt clearly consists mainly of a somewhat freethinking elite around the capital and a conservative proletariat within the capital's poorer districts and everywhere else in the country. The elite might have the power to decide the public school curriculum, for example, and if you spent all your time within the elite it might seem like a whole world in itself. Nevertheless the religious masses still vastly outnumber them.
I was told by Cairo elites that a major change in Egypt since the 1990s or so was the increasing pressure the masses were putting on the elites. For example, if you ran a business and you did not have the prayer bump on your forehead, your customers might question your religiosity and take their business elsewhere. And the stricter veiling of urban Egyptian women compared to accounts from the mid-20th-century was obvious. Again, I don’t know what might have changed in that regard since the revolution.
That people are employed in tourism to the Ancient Egyptian past does not necessarily mean acceptance of the Ancient Egyptian past. There are a number of Muslim countries that derive income from tourism that is at odds with a strict understanding of Islam, but devout Muslims are willing to look the other way (and perhaps tell themselves that this is just a temporary thing until the great sharia future ushers in an equitable economy for everyone).
Do contemporary Egyptians consider the current Egyptian state to be a successor state to the ancient Egyptians? Do they consider their culture to be a development of the ancient culture?
Serious question from someone who has been to Egypt but not fully digested the culture or the people. Thanks.
Not really. Keep in mind after the Ancient Egyptians, Egypt was ruled by many empires (Roman, Greek, Islamic, British). Egypt basically only got its independence after thousands of years of foreign rule in the last century.
So it's viewed as part of the country's heritage but not necessarily culture or state.
Another question, then, if I haven't overstayed my welcome.
Did Egyptians consider themselves a distinct nation under thousands of years of foreign rule, or did they consider themselves Romans at some point, then Greeks, then Islamic, etc (obviously not British)? Or did they always consider themselves an independent nation?
Egypt is like India in that any invaders who settled down there assimilated into the local culture pretty soon enough. The Greeks assimilated into the Egyptian kingdom during the reign of Ptolemy. Roman governors did the same, adopting Egyptian customs and of course intermarriage (cue Mark Antony). The Umayyads did not assimilate as much, often forcing the locals to adopt their stricter religious stances (like modern day Islamists). And like that, they suffered from lack of popularity and eventually revolts in Egypt (along with Iraq, Iran and anywhere not in Arabia), which led to the Abbasid Caliphate. The Abbasids ruled from Baghdad, but Cairo was given significant importance like an Eastern capital of sorts. When the Abbasids soon began declining due to internal weakness, Egypt gained more importance gradually at the expense of Baghdad. Saladin, a Kurd, ended up ruling from Cairo himself. When Baghdad fell because of the Mongols, Cairo effectively became the preeminent Muslim authority up until the conquest of Constantinople. Ottoman pashas often assimilated into the local culture. In fact, the first ruler of Egypt who fought for its independence from the Ottoman Empire was an Ottoman Pasha himself.
Edit:- also helped massively that Egypt controlled the Suez, and the proximity of Cairo and Alexandria (which Baghdad lacked) meant that the spice trade would inevitably make the Egyptians more prosperous. And of course prosperity leads to autonomy.
It's complicated. Copts (about 20% of the population) in Egypt are the most direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians. Greeks, Arabs, Ottomans, British, French invaded and took control at various points in between. Arabs brought Islam and Arabic language to Egypt with most Copts being Christian and no longer speaking Coptic (a language descended from ancient Egyptian) today, there's additional tension and politics.
“Copt” means Egyptian and was used by the Turkish decedents ruling class to refer to Egyptians regardless of religion.
So all Egyptians are Copts. Some Copts are Christian
The church, sometimes referred to as the Coptic church literally meant “the Egyptian church” and played a key role and maybe to this day, for example with a bishop sent to Ethiopia.
As for “who think of themselves as a descendant of those mummies?” Pretty much all Egyptians do, the national soccer team is often referred to in Africa as “the pharaohs”. Of course some Arabs Turks Greeks Armenians British and French stayed over the 1000s of years but given the population was already well established over confined space(3% of Egypt is populated, mainly around the Nile and coast) the influx couldn’t overtake the indigenous population.
This is not just some fantasy / wishful thinking either. If you observe farming habits, certain traditions, specific tools, fishing, sailing etc, you can see a very long and continuous way of being. It is called “maat”
Some studies concluded 98% genetic makeup overlap between the ancient and modern Egyptians. There is such a thing as “Egyptian ethnic group”. Travel through the streets and you will see the resemblance. TV shows? Not so much.
With that said, the Egyptian constitution of 1920s declared “the Egyptian is anyone who wishes to declare themselves Egyptian”.
Thank you, I did not know that the Copts are descended from ancient Egyptians. Does any of the ancient culture survive with them? You mention that the language is almost gone, but how about foods or clothing? Methods of construction, or methods of keeping cool in summer, or crafts?
People have been imprisoned, tortured physically and mentally, and killed for being part of (or just being accused of being a part of) certain religious/political groups.
I find it hard to say "good" about that, even if I disagree with the group they are a part of.
Don't want to give a political opinion as people are entitled to their own. But as a religious fact, it is prohibited in Islam to show veneration of any kind to pagan traditions or celebrations because of its strict commitment to monotheism. So, bringing in salafists into this to show this is an extreme position is factually incorrect.
I am a Muslim and have at no point considered celebrating non-Muslim ancestors as being wrong or prohibited. None of Muslim friends think that either. I am aware that some Muslims might, but it is not by any means a religious fact.
I'm not a Muslim but I've read the Quran. I can confirm that there it says not to worship any entity other than Allah and it says nothing about "celebrating" them being prohibited.
It does say a lot of bad things (to put it extremely mildly) about people worshiping other deities, especially idols, though.
Understanding the Quran literally is not the only way Islamic law is derived.
According to the four Schools of Jurisprudence in the Sunnis and the Ja'fari Schools of Jurisprudence in the Shias Islamic law is derived from the following sources:
- Quran and Quranic exegesis
- Ahaadith (prophetic traditions)
- Ijmaa' (consensus)
- Qiyaas (analogy - limited use cases and remit)
This is a ruling that is held by each of the Schools of Jurisprudence in the Sunnis and the Ja'fari School of Jurisprudence of the Shias.
As a side note the modern day Salafis/Wahabis/Ahlul Hadith literally interpret the Quran and Ahaadith (Prophetic Traditions) which is how they reach rulings that differ from the accepted Schools of Jurisprudence that have had millions of scholars over centuries work together.
This is a religious law that is agreed upon by each of the Schools of Jurisprudence in the Sunnis and the Shias.
Edit - This is not meant to be demeaning. What I meant is that religious law in Islam is not based on what is considered to be acceptable or not by a few people. Also what a person and their friends consider a ruling to be is not representative for all Muslims.
Please do not take HN threads into ideological or nationalistic (or whatever this is) flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
Coal in China supplies 53% of its electrical power. It is dropping slowly though. Hopefully they will succeed. Air pollution from those coal power plants is absolutely atrocious.
> The new capital of Egypt is yet to be given a name.
Did you read your link? You are talking about it's "dystopian name" but it's a placeholder, which every project has at some point. Sounds like fearmongering.
I don’t think it’s just Anti-Islam, but anti-organized religion sentiment in general. These sentiments aren’t unfounded, either.
Look deep within the pages of the Quran, the Bible or the Torah and you’ll find many examples of horrible and abusive human behavior. Behavior that would certainly not meet the HN Guidelines.
These sentiments are generally without an understanding of the historical context and from taking sloppily translated texts to skew the meaning. Just search in HN for Islam, Christianity, Quran, Torah or Bible and you will find people copypasting these mistranslated and misunderstood texts in comments feeling like they're the biggest scholars of the century.
Sure, actual academic discussions are fine with substance and evidences to support them where the author has put some effort in and has an actual understanding of the subject matter. But instead there is an attitude of oh I'll Google for something and copy paste it.
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar on top of religious flamewar.
I do not believe that your assumption that such comments come more from the US than from other countries is true. I just checked a bunch of examples of comments that I've scolded over the years for this reason, and roughly 50% were from the US (maybe less—I lost count at one point). This is similar to the distribution of HN users overall.
Awful. Poor people are having tax money stolen from them to move head-of-state mummies... Even long-dead mummies are making people's lives miserable, lol.
I would normally agree with a statement along these lines. However I would like to think that this came out of the marketing budget for the tourism sector. I bet tourism is significant to Egypt's economy.
Then I think the question becomes: Was this an effective marketing event? Who knows. But considering someone from South Africa is discussing it with someone in the Netherlands on HN perhaps it worked out.
Absolutely. We do not normally discuss Egypt here in CZ, but this video is spreading virally across the social networks.
The post-Covid summer is inching closer and there is a lot of pent-up demand for tourism and discovery of new places. I bet some people are not going to forget this show.
We were the best in spring 2020. Then came the summer respite and the government started resting on their laurels. Then came the menacing autumn and an absolutely disastrous winter, when we actually were the worst in the world. If the USA had the same mortality as we have, it would have over 800 000 deaths by now.
Now the disease is falling off again in lockdown, but really fast, faster than expected (people are lukewarm about the rules).
There is some suspicion that the British variant simply swept through the nation so hard that, even with the subpar vaccination campaign, we have reached the herd immunity inadvertently. Clearly some of the regions that were worst hit just a month or two ago (Chebsko, Trutnovsko) are now doing OK, which seems to indicate lack of fuel for further infections there.
The Cairo Museum was not built intelligently or well and was falling apart even a century ago. Much priceless material culture was destroyed in basement flooding in the years before the Nile was dammed. John D. Rockefeller Jr. even offered to replace it in the 1920s, redirecting his funds to Jerusalem after politics and the control he demanded torpedoed the project. The mummies should have been moved to a more appropriate location long ago. I don't begrudge the Egyptian state a little bit of pomp and glitter as they do what they should have done long ago.
Interesting choice of only using light skinned actors, and hiding working class neighborhoods. Sounds like they're taking tips from the best in the game, good ol' USA.
I'm Egyptian (though haven't lived there in over a decade) . Many of us loved this display. We are proud of our heritage and proud that the world can see and appreciate it the way we do.
That said, many of us also have qualms about the local politics and the authoritarian way the country is being run. It's possible to both appreciate this display and be critical of the politics. It's not easy because the figureheads of those politics were so heavily involved here. Good on them for at least doing this piece well.