Your post is basically my problem with how people talk about bad trips. You made the term "bad trip" ambiguous, scary and sound random. You're saying something might happen but no one can tell you what. Yeah that's horrifying, what is this horrible thing, Ill let my imagination run wild.
But if you can be clear about the risks and how to avoid them I think you'll come out fine. I don't think if psychedelics were playing some game of russian roulette like you suggest they would actually be useful in therapy.
I think you're entirely too dismissive of other people here, ironic for a thread on "How to change your mind"
I've had to calm people down off of bad trips. Unlike what you say, it's something that totally happens with single drugs and non hallucinogenics. Hell you can have a bad trip on alcohol.
It's all about the state of mind, and having an altered state of mind can make it much easier to start spiraling. This can happen even if you haven't taken drugs too, let's say from stress or lack of sleep. Again it's just about your mind being in a state it's uncomfortable with.
Specifically I've had friends on weed who've had anxiety attacks and deep paranoia till I calmed them down. They were completely non functional in the same way someone having a sober anxiety/panic attack would be.
I've had to help people on just E at parties who've started hyper ventilating and started having stressed delusional visions.
That's not even getting into being there for someone who's on psychedelics, where I've had friends who've suffered fairly longer lasting bouts of out of body syndrome, even after the drugs wore off because of how it affected their perception of self.
Drugs aren't the cause of a bad trip. They just increase the chances of one, and for many psychedelics, you therefore want to make sure you're in a calm, happy place. If someone is trying it for the first time, do it around people who will look out for you, and preferably those who can responsibly look after you if things do go sour.
I mostly agree with you, but your argument would be stronger if you didn't just blame everything on "overdoing" it.
My understanding is that psychedelics work by disinhibiting certain self-regulatory mechanisms in the brain. This means a bad trip can come simply from a person's past, e.g. if they have some unprocessed trauma that's usually repressed, the result can easily be ugly.
I agree with you that people who already know themselves well don't need to be afraid. It's the grey area of people who don't know themselves well but perhaps want to know themselves better that can get tricky.
Just in that reply? I only brought that up because that reply kept talking about stuff like panic attacks. I tried to lay out other reasons in the first comment.
Maybe I can give an anecdotal example that is less ambiguous. I have a fair amount of experience with psychedelics. I have had both uncomfortable trips and once what I would characterize as an actual bad trip. In the case of the bad trip it was a normal dosage, less than 2 grams of mushrooms (cubensis), and wasn't mixed with anything else. In terms of effects I would describe it as feeling like you are losing your mind, and you will never be yourself again. I imagined, in an extremely vivid and negative way, how I would be judged - by my friends, parents, society for what was happening in my head. How I would be pitied. For lack of a better word, I understood what it was to be "insane" and I knew I would never be sane again. I was unable to answer basic questions - completely unable to function (I could still speak but was highly confused). Fortunately I had friends who took care of me, changed my setting, and I came out of it after an hour or two finishing the trip feeling fine.
Psychedelics amplify your current emotions. If you feel love for the world you'll feel that 10x or 100x. If you have a panic attack, then it's the same amplification. You are correct that mixing and overdoing it are great ways to cause panic and bring on a bad trip - but bad trips really can happen if your set and setting is off. This is why people talk so much about being careful with set and setting - it is the most effective way to not play Russian roulette as you say. This is why in therapy there is always a guide - it is always in a calm place, and a therapist isn't going to recommend it for you if they see you're in the wrong mindset. But even then its not as if set and setting can somehow be measured to ensure the trip is good.
As negative as the experience was, in some ways I am glad I had it, because it gave me a much deeper understanding of where my mind could go - both positive and negative.
You wouldn't classify that as something like an uncomfortable introspection? I think if in general people were more clear about what the psychedelic experience is you wouldn't be caught off guard like that.
> you are losing your mind, and you will never be yourself again.
I feel like is a pretty common thing to come up, especially with lsd which lasts forever. If people were more prepared for what will come up (I actually tell people about that scenario if tripping for the first time comes up). Thats what i mean, is it better to say "oh the trip can go bad for any unpredictable reason" or we talk about in more clear terms then "bad trip" about what can actually be uncomfortable while on the drugs.
I think saying "you might feel like your losing your mind, but your not, youll feel better at the end" is less horrifying then "bad trips"
I would say it was too chaotic to be introspective (I realize I cited an example of my train if thought but this was not the norm).
I see your point about preparation and it’s valid however hearing someone else talk about what it’s like really can’t prepare you. I knew bad trips were possible and had read extensively about set and setting. But in the moment there was no reason or logic. I forgot everything I knew about managing the experience. It was completely overwhelming and in that situation there is very little you can do.
In many ways it’s like the psychedelic experience overall. You can read about and be as prepared as possible but the experience is so otherworldly there is no way to fully understand that it’s like unless you go through the experience.
> As negative as the experience was, in some ways I am glad I had it, because it gave me a much deeper understanding of where my mind could go - both positive and negative.
So is it still appropriate to consider this a “bad” trip? It’s a serious question; psychedelics are experiencing a resurgence in clinical interest precisely because of their persistent effects, quite apart from the acute trip experience itself. One might assume that a trip saturated in negative affect might leave a person worse off than before, but it is clearly more complex than that. Perhaps it is akin to the difference between post-traumatic stress vs. growth, and proper management of set/setting/aftercare can promote the latter over the former.
You raise an interesting point and perhaps it is both. I think it’s possible to experience negative or awful things and still grow - silver linings and all that. Does that make it good though? A much more serious example could be someone that survives cancer and now has a new found appreciation for life. I’m not sure that makes it “good” even though there were some positive outcomes. The difference of course is that I was never in any danger - though in the experience I certainly didn’t know that.
I am unsure about persistent long term negative outcomes from psychedelics - you bough I know several people that tried them once, had a rough experience and never touched them again.
so true. Even weed does this to an extent. if you're comfortable within yourself you'll have the time of your life but if you're not in the right head-space, or have fear of the drug (or fear a bad trip) you'll likely have a bad trip. Even so I think it's possible to steer yourself out of it with some practice of mental exercises (while sober)
With psychedelics it helps to have experience with lower dosage or even a weaker drug (weed) where you learn how to escape "a paranoia" and steer yourself to "happier thoughts".
When I was young I've seen one of my exes, who was a cop in Singapore, have a horror trip on weed in Thailand. She really wanted to smoke but never tried anything other than alcohol and her environment was also exactly what one would expect from a cop in SG. It was a nightmare for both of us. She even wanted to try it a second time a few days later and experienced a weaker paranoia as the first time (still not a happy time). It led me to the hypothesis that she'd need many such sessions over a longer time where she could re-integrate these experiences and also that she didn't get addicted into her worldview. The amount of brainwashing she went through from her society about what drugs do and how weed will make you switch to heroin and rob banks etc ... if she was ever going to feel great on weed it wouldn't be just a few times trying. (we never smoked after the second time because why on Earth would she when it only made her feel terrible).
My brother was in an even more extreme situation doing shrooms in Sumatra with his then gf. She never wanted to take anything (other than booze) but then decided to do shrooms with him after getting very drunk (I think he also talked her into it and she might have just said yes so she could have a bad trip in order to tell him "I told you so" ... at least that's the person she was). As predicted she had the ultimate horror trip, with visuals similar in to what got peddled by anti-drug propaganda in the 70ies. A zombie or elephant face stares back from the mirror, ants and spiders all over the ceiling ready to drop on them, walls closing in, etc ... By brother panicked and suggested the only thing he knew: "smoke yourself down from a bad trip", and proceeded to "roll one" for them. She hated the idea of adding another drug on top of the first drug, because she never took anything until then (and clearly this meant that by the time she was sober she would be a junky craving crack. The idea of another drug "as cure for a bad trip for the first drug" was an outrage for her.
She eventually did agree to smoke because the visuals were so horrific. From his account of the story it did make her better. But she would never admit it when they brought it up even years later. What she remembered was both drugs had caused her major distress. She used these experience to harden her believe further that drugs are always bad 100% of the time, and there can not be any medical value for anyone. (oddly she was so psychotic and manipulative, and never learned how to communicate without resorting to drama. In hindsight it's sad because drugs could have shown her that real self so she could address these issues).
What both stories taught me is never talk anyone into taking drugs or be too quick with "offering guidance" based on my own experience. Secondly be there for them to say no, when they're drunk and ask to go "score some weed" because they're on vacation and drunk enough to try (they can still do so the next day and then turn it into a proper event/memory).
Setting and preparation is key to get something out of it. if the people you surround yourself with aren't sensitive to your feelings you're better off doing it alone or not at all.
But if you can be clear about the risks and how to avoid them I think you'll come out fine. I don't think if psychedelics were playing some game of russian roulette like you suggest they would actually be useful in therapy.