I "downgraded" from a top spec Macbook Pro 2019 16" i9 9980HK with 64GB RAM to the new 14" M1 Pro with 32GB. Fans are at 0 RPM all the time, I haven't heard them yet. It compiles the same Android project without a sweat and with 0 RPM fan speed. The i9 was hitting 100C and maximum RPM in the same use case and took maybe three times longer. And the new macbook was about 25% cheaper than the 16" I bought in 2020. It's a completely different league - worth all the money I spent.
I went from a 2012 retina macbook pro to a maxed out (except storage) 14" M1 Max. The performance difference keeps blowing my mind on a daily basis. One Android project I sometimes work on took ~45 minutes for a release build on the old one but only 11 on the new one — and as it turns out I had spotlight indexing stuff in the background the whole time, and the SDK is still x86 so it runs through emulation. Fans do spin up sometimes but you have to try really hard to make it happen. On the old macbook the fans were spinning literally all the time and the CPU temperature has never fallen below around 60° on idle. That part of the case above the keyboard was always hot to the touch, on the M1 it's barely warm.
Do we have any thermal paste or other solution that works for 5+ years without degradation? ( I think I looked into this before but I forgot the answer )
I did clean it kinda regularly and did replace the thermal paste once. It stopped throttling when I put it on a stand to provide some airflow from below.
Part of that is Intel cannot get to low enough wattage on their mobile chips to sustain anything more than a quad core for very long. AMD is beating them but ARM is in a league of its own after decade+ of mobile focused development.
I'm excited to see how this changes x86 systems, mobile and desktop.
I ran this build once again now making sure nothing heavy was running in the background. It took 11 minutes and 5 seconds. The fans did audibly spin up and all CPU cores were 100% loaded (asitop output: https://i.imgur.com/OY36RVB.png). Here's the breakdown of how long each build step took: https://i.imgur.com/TcdfA4L.png
Do keep in mind though that the NDK (which takes like 90% of the build time) is still built for x86. So the 4x difference is mighty impressive when you consider that you're comparing an old x86 CPU running its native code to ARM emulating x86, even if doing so via translation.
Hm, no, android studio itself runs natively, and the JDK I'm using is native too, from adoptium.net. Most android build tools (d8, r8, etc) are written in java so they run natively. Building the java part in any project is really fast. Like, freakishly fast. 3 seconds to compile a thousand classes, WAT?!
Isn't C++ compilation mostly single-core-bound still? Of course it does compile as many files in parallel as there are cores, but it's not possible to compile a single file in multiple threads.
You haven't seen most Android projects that have a massive legacy module that Gradle spends 5 minutes compiling and doing nothing else. Seeing those 7 lines say IDLE is a daily experience
There is a lot more in single core performance then just clock speed, in fact ipc is even more important then clock speed when it comes to single core computing
Not surprising as Moore's law had stopped applying to CPU. Assuming each year CPU gets 20% improvement, from 2012 to 2021 the latest cpu is 5x more powerful than the old one. Considering 30% performance loss for converting x86 instructions to ARM, 4x is a reasonable number.
I did the same but to an Air 16gb. Much cheaper, mostly faster and doesn't have the quirks I had with the 16". I had it replaced 3x and it's was still shit; overheated and 3x just completely died... It was the most expensive computer I bought in since the 90s (Sun or SGI were more expensive) and it was a total horror show. Apple did give me new ones no problems but they never worked well for me; fans always on and burning so hot that it was uncomfortable to work on. This new air is really fabulous; always snappy and it does not heat up at all. It's actually a bit too cold.
The m1 air is the star of the show for me, because it is a machine that overdelivers to such a degree. I got one to replace my laptop, and to my surprise discovered that it outperforms my i5 9600K desktop, by a noticeable margin, without even getting warm. Also, it’s really nice to finally have actual all day battery life. For the brief window that our offices reopened I would leave my charger at home and still have 20% to 30% left by the end of the day.
Absolutely! I have the 16gb Air m1 and a fully loaded 16” M1 max - the max is collecting dust most of the time. For most of my workloads the Air is nearly as fast, completely silent and super duper lightweight.
The 9600k is an entry level CPU from 3 years ago. Personally I don't think it is surprising that it gets matched by a premium modern CPU. I do think there's something wrong with your desktop however, because in raw benchmarks the difference between an M1 and 9600k is minor - and it should not be a noticeable speed improvement unless something else in your configuration is causing problems.
Similarly, Intel's 1185g7 laptop CPU also goes toe to toe with the 9600k, with comparable performance to the M1 (albeit with worse efficiency). But the efficiency isn't a bother personally as the 1185g7 laptop still lasts all day for my usage. I do have an M1 MBP and have used them side by side, and I'm not really sold yet. Admittedly part of the problem is the locked down hardware and lack of support for Linux - but in the mean time I'm always reaching for the Intel laptop and do not miss the MBP.
> The 9600k is an entry level CPU from 3 years ago.
It's not entry-level. It's the fastest 6-core part from a product line that included 2, 4, 6 and 8-core desktop parts. Every model in that product line that was better than the 9600k could only be described as high-end.
Very much doubt the desktop has a configuration problem as it is set up the same as the laptop.
I think the difference is down to the single core performance edge that the m1 has. In theory multi core benchmarks should dictate the performance you get, but in practice it seems a lot of things, even development tools, depend a lot on single core performance.
A colleague is working on the same project with an Air 16GB and doesn't complain. It's crazy that it doesn't even have active cooling and can be used for serious CPU intensive work.
The 16" model was a big Apple failure. I had to use it in clamshell mode with an external monitor because having the macbook open with an external monitor would make the macbook run a lot hotter and the fans would spin much louder all the time. That was a pretty well known problem with the GPU and they never fixed it (probably some HW issue).
Apple messed up the PCB/config that the GPU will automatically run at 18W (full tilt) when an external monitor + internal monitor is used. The fix in the later OSes was just to lower the power limit at 15W. That 16" was a really nice laptop in form factor and physical experience (monitor, keyboard, trackpad, and especially the speakers), but the that GPU issue + Intel heat and energy profile makes it an annoying computer to use.
I've transitioned to a 16GB M1 MBA too and it's a dream. CPU temps < 60C on dev loads on a hot day (I work outside). 16GB RAM means low swap usage (I used 8GB M1 MBA before this and it was still snappy except on the very limits). Still can drive a 4k monitor or mirrored Sidecar (with BetterDummy) without a peep. Building my work project takes the same time as the i7 16" MBP without the fan noise.
Exact same issues, I just changed my MB Pro Intel core i9 16" for a M1 Max 16", it's the biggest technological jump I have ever seen and the M1 Max is even cheaper.
I have a 16" M1 Max, fully loaded. The thermal profile on this thing is insane, here is a screenshot of the internals after being on for a couple of hours with a bunch of chrome tabs open https://imgur.com/a/yjXxdvJ its barely warmer than body temperature.
Also note for anyone on the fence about being 1-inch larger,
the 16 inch model is the same physical size as the 15-inch models and they removed a lot of bezel. the screen has the same camera/sensor notch as an iphone does, which allows them to extend the screen farther.
full screen videos are letterboxed 99% of the time so the notch blends into. I don't play full screen games so can't tell if thats an issue. and it is in the OS top bar the other rest of the time.
oh yeah you might be right, I had skipped the donglebook models and compared to the last pre-M1 model that had magsafe and an sd card port
I had googled the size comparison before I purchased the M1 Max model and it helped move the needle for me, but I don't remember the source and we were likely comparing different models
Exactly. Same for me (except 16GB). I am programming all day (multiple IDEA projects open) and have probably 200+ tabs open in Chrome and Safari. Not a sweat.
I keep saying, the best Apple advertisement are all other computers (and Windows/Android operating systems). It's like they're not even trying!
These are good real world examples, and the other comments here in confirmation of the performance and energy benefits are pushing me towards Asahi Linux when it is good enough/close enough to be roadworthy. At that moment, Apple can have my money for an M1 Pro.
I'm guessing that even once Asahi is usable enough for a daily driver, it'll still take some time until the efficiency and battery life are comparable.
Comparable to macos is one thing, but I'm looking at having the best performing Linux-based laptop so if efficiency and battery life on even early versions of Asahi Linux on M1 turn out to be quite superior to contemporary Intel-based laptops then that'll be a strong lure.
Same experience with a M1 16GB. I have never felt such a jump in experience from a laptop to another. The M1 stays cold and silent and the battery lasts much longer, it's simply incredible.
Even when I tried to throw games at it. It exceed my expectations.
I skipped the fan entirely and went from Macbook Pro Intel I9 to Macbook Air M1. Plenty of performance, much better battery time and size is more comfortable than the 14"/16".
I went from a maxed out late 2019 to a maxed out M1 max (except ssd). The M1 is so much better it’s almost crazy and I can finally use my 2 LG 5k monitors again without the machine coming to a crawl. In a lot of ways the 2019 was worse than my previous one which I believe was the 2017 model. Glad Apple finally listened to what people wanted and made a laptop that works, added some ports back in and got rid of the terrible Touch Bar.
I met with a coworker recently who has the intel macbook and I was shocked to hear the amount of noise coming out of the thing while just running the basic programs we need to run. It was even discharging while plugged in until they closed enough stuff and turned docker off. Meanwhile I haven't had any issues with the M1.
It's unfortunately not. The CPUs of the 2019 16" Intel MBPs are right at the thermal wall, and after removing so much mass, the Macs have no way to remove heat other than cycling fans extremely aggressively.
We hear almost nothing but complaints about them from long-time Mac users who are used to historically quieter devices. Under any load, like a few minutes of Zoom or Teams while connected to an external display, the fans are persistently and disconcertingly audible. It's become almost a meme in video conferences over the past two years when someone unmutes to speak and the fan noise overwhelms the noise suppression that you know they have a Mac.
Display artifacts and connection issues to USB-C displays aren't uncommon on the 2017-2019s either, but it still sounds like a torture test when running two 4k TB3 displays or a single 5k on one. The M1s are the first Macs I've recommend to friends and family in almost a decade.
Brand new Intel 16-inch MBP will blast fans doing even the simplest tasks. A single Twitch live stream open in the background. Running IntelliJ. Docked 4k monitor. Especially in clamshell mode, the fans will ramp up and stay ramped up, and the top row of the keyboard will get so hot that the machine is unusable without an external keyboard.
(I use one for work, it is terrible. And I used to have one for personal use, which I traded for a M1 Air)
I’m using TurboBoost Switcher Pro to battle this issue. It keeps the machine cool(er) and thus quiet(er). Combined with the VRM cooling mod, it is doable with heavy workloads. Battery life is still bad though and now the bottom gets very hot.
Yeah,we know. But consider the this: your baseline is a shit laptop. Apple knew they were releasing a turd. Maybe even did so semi-intentionally because that would make new chips seem even better.
My personal Ryzen 5800H powered Lenovo doesn't overheat and I haven't heard the fan I over a month despite doing all kinds of lightweight development and browsing on it.
Meanwhile, my fairly expensive work issued 6 core Intel Xeon Lenovo from 2019 sounds like it's about to take off throughout most of the day.
YMMV though, I briefly owned a 5900HS/3080 Zephyrus G15 and though it was indeed a powerhouse, it absolutely got more hot and way WAY more noisy than my 16” M1 Pro does now doing the same things, while overall not being as nice of a laptop (far worse screen, somewhat chintzy build, meh speakers, barrel power connector, huge power brick, bad battery life, etc).
That G15 was better at some things than my M1 Pro is now but not by enough that I’d want it over the M1 Pro, even considering the price difference.
what kinds of workloads are you running? I bought the exact same asus laptop to be a portable gaming machine, but I've been surprised at how nice it is for normal laptop stuff. unless I'm playing a game or compiling a large project, I just leave it in "silent" mode and never hear fans.
everything you say about the build quality is definitely true, but I couldn't find anything better that a) had a 3080/3070 and b) was actually in stock.
It was mainly gaming that would get it roaring, but compiling code among other things would spin the fans up a bit too. I didn’t put it in “silent” mode except when doing light things like web browsing because it felt like a waste of the hardware otherwise with how silent mode downclocks and limits boost speeds.
I guess I rationalize that all the money went towards higher binned parts that at least clock a few hundred mhz higher than ultrabook parts in silent mode. but yeah I get that. glad you were able to find a machine you're happy with :)
This thread is really interesting to read because if the same thread had been made a couple of years ago, before Apple released its M1 laptops, it would have been filled with Apple fans who would be saying that the Intel MBPs were the best thing since sliced bread and that the users were doing something wrong.
I think the only time Apple fans actually accepted that an Apple product was actually bad was the trashcan Mac Pro, and that was only because they went half a decade without upgrading it and they replaced a beloved design with one that was branded as a trash can.
> This thread is really interesting to read because if the same thread had been made a couple of years ago, before Apple released its M1 laptops, it would have been filled with Apple fans who would be saying that the Intel MBPs were the best thing since sliced bread and that the users were doing something wrong.
I work on an Apple laptop; all of my colleagues work on Apple laptops.
Maybe what you say is true in the spaces you find yourself in, but in all the spaces I chat about these things (Android developer community) none of your claims are true. The general feeling about the last generation of Intel MBPs was initially one of relief that they didn't f** up the keyboard, and then slow dawning disappointment as we realized that the thermal design of the machine was abysmal.
Up until this most recent M1Pro/Max iteration, things were getting so bad that many professionals I know were at least considering a move off of the Mac platform that most of us have been on for a decade or more. Many of us need to compile iOS code occasionally, of course, which means we're kind of stuck.
The M1Max has completely changed all that. One of the senior engineers I know actually put together some benchmarking numbers of compile times, assembled a spreadsheet of every engineer with a pending hardware upgrade, and added up the numbers for a budget ask to buy every single engineer at their company a top of the line 64GB M1Max. The final bill added up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and just putting it together took a lot of time for this person.
It was approved!
So yeah, there's some real turkey on the bone here. It's not all fanboy hype.
There is only a small percentage of users of products who can be described as ‘fans’ in the sense that they will defend the products even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they have problems.
There is a much larger percentage of people for whom the world is not black and white, there is no picking of a ‘team’, and they will use whatever works for them or make do with what they have, moving between brands and models over time.
Please don’t push the ‘Apple fans’ narrative here. There are lots of us who are just trying to get stuff done and have civilised discussion, not engage in polarised mid slinging.
> Apple fans who would be saying that the Intel MBPs were the best thing since sliced bread and that the users were doing something wrong
Maybe if you only mean the 2015 models, sure. But models between 2015 and the M1s were trounced by everyone, even Apple fans, for their keyboard issues and throttling the i9.
I had a 2017 i7, and it was the worst Mac I ever owned.
Hmm. I find the interesting part of this thread is all the deny at any cost comments. Apple has created a power/performance tradeoff that is way off the charts from the performance path that Intel was on. The deniers keep saying there must be lint in the Intel machine, Apple's thermal design wasn't good, etc. There is plenty of hard data out there with respect to numerous Intel based machines. Intel cannot come close to the power/performance point that Apple is now occupying.
Here is a different sort of data point. I have two Windows programs I need to run on my M1 Pro MB 16. One is an Intel binary and one has been recompiled to ARM. I am running them both under Win11 ARM on a Parallels virtual machine. I am getting better and more responsive performance than I ever did on dedicated Intel hardware. No noticeable fan noise or heat. It is really just a different beast than I have ever used before. Of course, native Mac apps are also much quicker.
Here is another data point from my own machines. 2019 i9 MB Pro Geekbench single core score is 1024. x86 Geekbench single core on M1 MB Pro 16" (x86 emulation) is 1347. Native ARM Geekbench on Win 10 virtual machine running on M1 Pro is 1560. Native single core Geekbench on M1 Pro is 1734. Multi core is 12400.
Look, Intel performance gains over the past decade have been incremental at best. It makes sense to be skeptical that Apple could change the rules like this. I suggest folks just get one of these machines and run their own benchmarks. Apple will give you a full refund, no questions asked for 14 days from the date you receive it. Don't just throw stones, try it yourself.
The last few years have been Apple fans pissed off about the terrible keyboard they threw in, the touchbar, and the notebooks getting too slim at the expense of performance and cost. I don't remember anyone hyping up the last-gen laptops.
I have a 2018 MBP with i9. The fans drive me crazy. I remember once I was in a meeting with my PhD student who was sitting across from me. The MBP was on my desk in clamshell mode placed in between us. Suddenly its fans started and my student jumped from the chair because the fan noise was so intense. It's been more than 3 years and the fans are still noisy. Just to be sure, there is no lint inside it. I cleaned it just the last week.
There is now doubt the M1 is very much cooler, but they also made the laptop much thicker to allow sufficient airflow without hitting the fans. I am pretty confident that this is the main reason to make it so much thicker than the Intel one
I also downgraded from the top 16” intel mac but to the 13 inch pro. I’m thinking I might keep it as it’s almost as powerful as the new M1 with much much longer battery (new 14 inch battery is comparable with older intel macbooks).
