I don't like it. Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity is a lot easier to deal with in many ways than an ethereal emulation of said object. For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in, even if I can only communicate through little more than pointing and grunting. Another example: I got a new phone recently, but since all my stuff was still on my old phone, after the new phone was activated I told the clerk to put the new SIM back into the old phone. It was painless and literally took a minute. I'm sure dicking around with eSIMs would have taken far longer, and I'd have spend even more time dicking around to transfer things back.
> Apple's former design chief Jony Ive once envisioned the iPhone as becoming a "single slab of glass," and the SIM card slot's removal would be another step towards a seamless design...
I really do hate purist visions like that.
> Taking out the slot would also free up some valuable internal space in the iPhone — every bit counts.
And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.
>> For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in
That is exactly what apple doesn't want you to do. They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices. And most users will be OK with this. They will probably appreciated not having to buy a local SIM cars. They will enjoy how easily their virtual SIM connected to the local ISP and hooked them into a the prearranged roaming deal for apple devices. They won't question the price because they will have no input into a negotiation that happened years before they arrived in the country. All that is left for them is to blindly pay the bills.
To me, there is nothing to indicate this is a power grab by Apple.
Google supports eSIM. Google can sell you cell service for your iPhone from the couch.
If any phone manufacturer is trying to compete with the carriers, it would look a lot like Google, which made a global MVNO.
Yes, there is usually a business motive behind every business decision. The GSMA makes it sound like the carriers want it, as well as the phone manufacturers:
“Simpler device setup without the need to insert or replace a SIM card;
Devices that can operate independently of a tethered smartphone, with their own subscriptions;
A range of new, enhanced mobile-connected devices.”
> When outside the United States, cellular phone calls cost $0.20 per minute, data costs the same $10 per gigabyte (i.e. there are no extra data charges outside of the US), and texting is free
In my international travel, where I used to (a) carry an unlocked phone, then (b) used to use the second (physical) SIM slot once that became available, I would buy SIMs from local carrier shops or kiosks (whichever costs less), and found that $10/GB is really not ludicrously expensive in first world markets.
It's difficult to get SIMs that work in local places around the world that do everything you need to do and cost much less than that. Plus the ones you buy locally have different numbers.
Eventually I switched this around, I put my US carrier in my SIM slot, and I use eSIM on the phone to get decent digital plans "in market". Some are digital via apps, some are QR codes from shops or kiosks.
eSIM seems to have better or at least competitive pricing for the last 4 years or so.
// Note I'm generally using a lot of data, so cost matters. The only thing I've found much cheaper is to get a local carrier who also offers free unlimited WiFi from local APs. Anywhere this works, that naturally beats any cell-only plan. You usually won't find this except by searching local language sites or going into local carrier stores and asking.
While iPhones are supported on Google Fi they don't support 5G. Other Google Fi phones support 5G without problems. But 5G on iPhones has been "coming" for years. I have no idea what's taking so long.
I imported my Pixel 5 to Switzerland which is technically not supported. Had to switch my esim to a physician because the esim didn't want to activate and also didn't get regonized by the phone.
That's more to do with the carrier than the eSIM standard or phone, though. My iPhone supports eSIM but my carrier (and the others, apparently) refuses to provision eSIMs for anything that isn't a smartwatch.
Like I said -- more to do with carrier restrictions. Your carrier doesn't have Pixel 5 on the "allowed devices" whitelist, so when it sends a registration request via that eSIM the network rejects it. (Your carrier knows which phone model is attempting to activate a SIM, even a physical one, and can reject it for whatever reason. It's just less common)
My Pixel 2 supported WiFi Calling but my carrier didn't acknowledge it as "supported" and the carrier's servers refused to send it a settings file.
iPhone is known bad to use non-authorized carrier because some features like tethering needs special carrier bundle that can't be installed by user. eSIM-only iPhone gives power to Apple to extend restrictions. I suspect that they want to sign with carriers to encourage careers to sell iPhone.
I don't understand. I can get an eSIM from my telecom provider and scan it with a QR Code to activate it in Android. I've done this with Telenor in Europe and Zain in the Middle East. It works great. I can even switch between them on the fly!
How does the phone manufacturer have anything to do with it? My only wish is to support multiple eSIMs, as now I only have one physical SIM slot and one eSIM.
This has not been my experience in the US. The eSIM QR code appears to be one time use with two major carriers I've used (AT&T/T-Mobile). I could not simply scan the previous QR code when I got a new phone I had to go into the store and request another.
A physical SIM in contrast always works. I was already questioning whether I'd ever need to upgrade from the 12 Pro but this type of needless regression makes it an easy decision.
You can get one today. Tomorrow, after a "security update", apple could just decide that it doesnt like certain ISPs and reject thier virtual sims. Rejecting hardware sims is much more difficult and is likely a violation in many jurisdictions.
They pretty much used to do that physical SIMs. For the longest time Apple wouldn’t accept network profiles many MVNO in the U.K. which mean the phone would completely ignore the config on SIM and stuff like internet wouldn’t work.
You could still get everything working by manually configuring the phone, and carriers like GiffGaff had support articles explaining how, but it was a total pain in the arse and stuff would occasionally break in subtle ways.
Additionally the eSIM is separate physical chip within the phone attached to baseband radio. Once configured with a profile, the host OS has as much access as it does to a normal SIM, I.e. not much. The entire standard is kinda a hack, which basically boils down to “what if we embedded a normal SIM card chip in the phone, and let the phone flash a new carrier profile every now and then?”. Remember these SIMs are fully fledged computers, like their normal removable counterparts, that can ignore host OS commands, and issue instructions directly to the baseband processor without the host OS knowledge.
Apples eSIM is not the same as that open eSIM standard. eSIMs that work with iPhones have to be supplied via a direct agreement with Apple as far as I understand.
I'm in the eSIM business and the same QR code you can scan on an iPhone will work on a Pixel, Samsung and a few other eSIM supporting devices. You might be thinking of the Apple SIM, where Apple to work directly with those carriers.
What are you basing that assertion on? All the eSIMs I’ve ever used have come direct from the carrier, and in some cases those carriers have very small presence and aren’t know for being at the front of Apple queue for services.
Then there’s the dozens of companies in the App Store like https://www.dentwireless.com/ who all provide eSIMs for international travel. I find it hard to believe they all have agreements with Apple, it normally costs far to much to deal with Apple for bottom dollar companies to make any money.
Of the threads you’ve listed, one deals with app entitlements to call the addPlan API, which is nice to have so a carrier app can directly provision an eSIM, but not needed for eSIM provisioning via QR code. For the other two threads, it’s the same person both times making the assertion Apple’s eSIM is proprietary, with all comments being 3 years olds and discussing a beta iOS version.
So would take all of those sources with a large pinch of salt. If Apples eSIMs we’re proprietary, I would expect to be easy to find articles discussing the fact, given they’ve been around for a few years now.
> They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users.
SIMs come from the phone company. How could it be otherwise as that's where the phone number comes from, and that's how the local physical network determines whether you're allowed to connect or not:
> A virtual SIM is a mobile phone number provided by a mobile network operator that does not require a SIM card to connect phone calls to a user's mobile phone.
This isn't about Apple becoming an MVNO, this is about Apple somehow controlling the process of configuring your phone because you no longer have the option to choose a SIM card and insert it yourself.
You're too focussed on the narrow technology implementation and not on the potential consumer experience.
Here's what a rational, profitable scenario would look like to me: in the not-too-distant-future, you land in country X and you get prompted if you would you like a local number by partner Mobile network. If you agree, Apple submits your electronic ID[1] to the Mobile Network for KYC purposes (with your opt-in), you pay with your Apple wallet, and you get a local number. The network gets paid, and Apple gets its cut (as well as a subsequent payments, if it's a PAYG plan) - and you haven't even picked up your baggage from the carousel. Apple can even play off networks against each other and pick the more profitable ones, and consumers get a sleek onboarding experience for a fee, or bundled with your Apple TV/iTunes/iServices subscription, so you can resume watching season 10 of Foundation while you wait for your Uber.
You are criticizing a weird strawman here. eSIMs already work on iPhones, it would be difficult for Apple to walk back on that.
Removing the SIM slot isn’t a step into that direction, removing standards compliant eSIM support would be.
Or maybe your comment isn’t meant as a criticism at all, I think that actually sounds pretty awesome. As long as we retain the ability to load our own eSIMs.
Please tell me you are serious about this. Tried looking into this earlier and found out that eSIM is extra proprietary, which means no hobby devices, like those 3G/4G/GSM connectivity Arduino modules.
Guess what. Apple can dent physical sims too though
Why do you think you a physical sim for different providers. Because they only work with that provider. Apple can turn the tap off on a class of Sims as it is
They can emulate the SIM card which gets provisioned on-the-fly with no user input according to the position of the device and whatever contract apple has for that area.
That's definitely going to be a step up in user comfort... The average apple user will definitely love it
From rumors I heard over a year ago, Apple are planning on satellite implementations of some sort to get off current cell tower configurations and SIM vulnerabilities. I don't have a current link to those rumors, but I'm sure you can find them. When I first saw this MacRumors article come through I assumed this is why they're removing SIM. We'll see, it's just rumors to me until it's brought to fruition anyway.
No, they are not. That 3 year old link did not come true. Today a eSIM QR code can be scanned by an iPhone, Pixel, Samsung or other esim supporting device. (source: I sell eSIMs)
I doubt this. Apple could charge an activation fee with a normal SIM already and yet they don’t. And any money gained from this would be insignificant to their other revenue streams. People don’t change SIMs that often
> They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users.
[ citation needed ]
eSIM is already a standard and as far as I can tell, Apple gets no kickbacks/etc for users using it. I can go to att.com right now and swap to an eSIM if I were so inclined, for free.
> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity
A SIM is not a embodiment of an iPhone’s identity. Maybe it was in the 90s, but today it’s so much more. The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. You can change SIMs, change your access token for one network, but you are making no bigger impact on your phone’s “identity” than if you were to change Wi-Fi networks.
List of Identity related things that change when you change your SIM
* Network Access Layer data associated with the cellular networks
* Phone Number
List of Identity relates things that do not change when changing your SIM
* All data stored on the phone (messages, photos, apps)
* Two Factor Authentication apps like Duo, PingID, Authy
* ICloud Accounts
* Stored passwords
* Login tokens for various apps like email, social media, etc
* Browser Cookies
* Applet Wallet Data
They were correct. They're saying your phone service identity (I am X number on Y network plan). Not your personal identity (pictures of your kids and passwords).
Today if your phone fails, you can pop a sim in another phone and regain your phone service identity within minutes. No SIM, it could take days or even weeks.
If I want to replace my phone now, I can pop the SIM card out of the slot, and slide it into the new device. Takes 3 minutes and importantly requires no contact with the carrier.
With an eSIM, I'd have to-- at the very least-- do some sort of migration process through a carrier-provided resource. Maybe it's a web-based thing where I can sign in to their site on the old phone and get a QR code to scan on the new one, but I'd be unsurprised if at least some carriers say "gotta come into a store" or put up some sketchy "for your protection" roadblocks. This could be technical incompetence or a dark pattern, but I'm sure they want to keep anything related to bring-your-own-device to be a bit arcane and scary, to encourage customers to buy through the carrier.
> Today if your phone fails, you can pop a sim in another phone and regain your phone service identity within minutes. No SIM, it could take days or even weeks.
This doesn’t make any sense. Anything that can be done using a physical sim, you can do faster with e-sim (input data into fields).
What if you don’t have another physical sim ready to go? It’s the middle of the night and stores are closed. Your car won’t start. You lost your wallet and don’t have currency. Traveling in a foreign nation and don’t know where the SIM store is. (Yes these are extreme situations, but that’s exactly when you need your phone to work)
You don't need a new SIM to which phones, that's the point. You only need a different phone.
Who can do it faster? Me? Or the dude I just waited on hold for for 45 minutes (on someone else's phone i borrowed because I'm lucky enough to be around someone who is there to let me use their phone for 45 minutes) sitting in a call center somewhere?
Yes, I don't understand how this could be welcomed by anyone else than Apple. It gives flashback from time when Verizon had CDMA network and their devices did not have SIM.
CDMA phones (early 2000's) had to be manually configured to attach to a network, I did support for Verizon at the time and I talked many people through the steps of reprogramming their phones onto the network. If you wanted to use your CDMA phone on another network you had to program it and re-program back when you were done. The steps were not public nor easy to navigate as it was not intended to be a user serviceable feature.
Compared to AT&T's "take the card out and put it in the new phone" reprogramming it was night and day.
You can say that eSIM is easier than the old CDMA days but it still isn't as easy as SIM swapping.
Technically, I do not see why eSIM cannot be even easier than SIM swapping.
I go to a conference or hotel, and they can figure out how to have me login to the wifi and pay them. Or not pay them if I am a certain level member of their rewards program or part of a certain group of people attending the conference.
Other than legacy business contracts or lack of will by mobile networks to allow easy switching, it seems it should be just as easy to change which mobile network you are using.
As a side note, I love the cash grab by ATT/Verizon/Tmobile right now where changing your device entitles them to collect an extra $30 "activation" fee from you. Zero labor cost, almost zero compute cost other than changing IMEI in their database, and you still have to part with $30.
>> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity
> The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network.
That's what I meant. Anyone with any familiarity with SIM cards knows it's no personality chip that brings everything over with it, and if it were such a thing it would probably be pretty annoying.
Actually, the SIM card use to be a “personality chip” in the 1990s. It stored your phone number and your contacts. There’s a scene in The Wire where a drug dealer confuses the police by changing the sim card of his phone when talking about criminal activity, which evades electronic surveillance (changing the phone’s ID on the network) and physical surveillance (sims are very small and concealable). I was specifically calling out how the use of a cell has grown in the last 30 years specifically as it related to identity.
I’ve spent a lot of time engineering login pages and thinking about questions of user identity.
I don't know the story, but I'm wondering if IMEI wasn't introduced because of that. If SIM offered an identity in the network, why would phone need to have an unique number?
IMEI identifies the device, SIM identifies the subscriber. IMEI is used to block stolen phones, but it's also how phones are locked into specific carriers (which used to be a much bigger part of the business model, "$0 phones" and all).
Imei can be changed on some phones, and are not secure. The sim card needs to be logged to from the phone (usin PIN for uset-level login), contains non readable secrets and provides a completely separate execution environment with its own memory and cpu.
What I was saying is that it doesn't look like IMEI is essential part of the protocol and perhaps was added because of that and similar cases? Without any identifiable ID of the phone, you wouldn't need a burner phone, just a burner SIM.
SIM stands for "Subscriber Identity Module". IMEI stands for "International Mobile Equipment Identity". One identifies the account/person connecting (your plan, usage, etc.) while the other identifies the phone (and its capabilities on the network).
> they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.
It's funny this commenter accuses Apple of mindlessness when they did not look up that the iPhone 13 and 13 Pro are thicker than their respective counterparts from last year.
Other features like battery life are clearly more important to people than thinness and that seems to be catching on with manufacturers (although weight still matters).
I would speculate that removal of the physical SIM card is more likely to be about one (or a combination) of:
* Apple taking even more control over the device
* Making it marginally more difficult to switch to another brand's ecosystem
Phones already were water proof when they had sim cards and phone jack.
While I never owned an iPhone, those changes annoy me immensely. The reason for it is that Android manufacturers are copying all of that. I'm currently want to update phone, and want one with sd card and phone jack. Those two things make my selection much smaller. And looking at trends looks like very soon it will be similarly gone as physical keyboard is.
> Phones already were water proof when they had sim cards and phone jack.
As an individual, I agree with you. The industry consensus (initiated by Apple) that the headphone jack ought to go is a great shame for a few reasons and I would happily trade-off some water resistance for its inclusion.
However, when you want to use phones to pull customers into the lucrative world of subscriptions (and the big corps, especially Apple, seem to be heading this way), having a device that is more reliable and less likely to break is very helpful. The longer you can make the device last, the less reason you give the customer to try another, competing brand, and the more you increase the chance that they get pulled into your ecosystem.
We could talk about the ethics and attitude that leads them to locking down the device more and more to increase one-shot longevity instead of making devices repairable. But this is outside of the scope of my original comment.
The original argument I was making was that SIM card removal does seem plausible to me. It fits into a number of trends in Apple devices over the last couple of years, and arbitrarily increasing thinness isn't one of them.
This hasn't been my experience. I use only eSIMs now on an iPhone 13. I buy eSIMs via Airalo's iOS app (not affiliated, not an ad but love it).
It takes me 30 seconds from buying an eSIM in any country worldwide from their app, paying with Apple Pay, to having it active and working with data and voice line.
I travel a lot and before it'd take 15 minutes to sometimes an hour of driving to a phone shop or finding it at the airport, getting your passport copied (fraud risk), getting foreign money in cash out to pay, and handing a stranger your phone.
Big improvement for me. And I can run 2x eSIMs at the same time!
Airalo sounds interesting. I'm a bit suspicious of the offering though after studying their website. No business address, no mention where it's based, privacy policy is not GDRP compliant. Not sure if this is a serious business.
The problem with services like Airalo is that they almost never give you a local phone number. In many countries getting a phone number involves showing a physical id.
I imagine a world where you just a bring a phone anywhere and it you open your network settings, go to your cellular data menu, and then automatically it detects the mobile network providers that support the towers it can see.
Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected.
All without having an existing Wi-Fi or Cellular data plan.
There needs to be some basic/back-end service that allows for this type of communication to people not already subscribed to a mobile network.
> Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected.
And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash? I'd have to fork over my credit card (assuming that's even an acceptable form of payment) and may end up with a recurring charge for a cell plan in a country I'll visit for a week.
Visions like yours are nice, but my money is what we'll actually get is a far crappier, buggier version.
One impossible-to-replace benefit of physical objects is that you can use physical control to place limits on them. Pay with cash, no recurring changes, move the card, move the service. Theoretically you could do that in software, but practically you won't because those are expensive features that almost always get cut.
>And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash?
The menus will be in whatever language your phone is set to. You can use contactless payment like Apple Pay or Google Pay and there's no recurring charge unless you want there to be one.
My point was that the payment was contactless. You don't have to give any paper or anything to another person. It's handled by Apple Pay using whatever payment method you want and the vendor/provider never gets your info.
My point was that paper letter was wireless too. Wireless, same as contactless, is a name we use for particular technology.
I totally agree that it could have been Apple Pay, Paypal Pay or whatever else Bingus Pay, but it definitely was not contactless, because there was no NFC radio communication involved.
And my point was that "contactless" has more than one definition depending on context. I'm not going to respond anymore as I've been warned about arguing semantics on here.
That was exactly my experience traveling from USA to Europe. My iPhone didn't support global bands and wouldn't work with a local SIM. My iPad, however, came with the Apple SIM and let me purchase a local data plan in 2 different countries through a convenient menu that came up automatically. I'm sure there's a telecom company requirement for why this capability doesn't seem to work in a regular phone.
You can do all of that with SIM already. The only restriction placed is by cell providers. You either use roaming feature, or if you use SIM that supposed to use multiple providers (like Google Fi) then it can use multiple networks.
This change is bad for the customer no matter what. It's similar to me to what Verizon had during CDMA days.
My ideal goes further than that. All I want is a reasonable data plan with non extortionate roaming rates from my existing provider (phone service is not important to me these days due to FaceTime/WhatsApp/etc). Some providers were starting to offer decent roaming to a large selection of countries that came out of your existing allowance with no additional charge but they seem to have started rolling back on that now as margins are getting squeezed. There is no reason for roaming charges for 1 week to be higher than the cost of a 1 month pre-paid local sim.
Come to Canada, where our plans are shit and their international roaming rates are even more shit. The second I'm across a border the SIM card comes out...
(For iPhones to work on your network you would HAVE to sell bandwidth to Apple who then uses it for international roaming. The user really is connecting to and using Apple's Network, the local ISP only has the priviledge of serving packets to Apple devices.)
That is exactly how it does (or did?) work with the Apple SIM card in an cellular iPad. You unlock the iPad it asks which network you want to connect to, and you pay with your credit card for the duration you choose
> If I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in
I don't understand this comment.
Pre-COVID I used to travel a lot for business, with an iPhone.
iPhone has physical SIM + virtual SIM.
My "home" SIM would stay in my iPhone.
Meanwhile I would have one of the many eSIM apps (Truephone, GigSky etc.) on my phone, which I would activate for international data for X days which would enable me to continue doing VoIP and messaging apps as normal.
I don't see the need to go buy local SIMs (and indeed, in some countries, buying SIMs as a foreigner is difficult for legal not language barrier reasons).
The difference is the price. Any international eSim plan is many times more expensive per GB than a local sim card. Especially if you need a lot of GBs.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the country/region. And as I said, sometimes you can't even buy SIMs as a foreigner anyway due to legal restrictions.
Plus, in reality who needs "lots of GBs" these days when travelling ? You need "enough" GBs to tide you over between WiFi hotspots which, let's face it, in 2021 are everywhere and free in many places (hotels, conference venues, offices, shopping centres, coffee shops etc.).
You cannot accuse me of being a shill because I named multiple eSIM providers (alongside an "etc." suffix at the end of the list) so you have no right whatsoever to accuse me of marketing for any specific eSIM provider.
I don't understand the comments here at all. Advocating for a far less convenient physical solution over a digital solution - on HN? Has anyone here actually dealt with eSIMs vs regular SIMs? I've been using phones since SIM cards were the size of a credit card, and eSIMs are amazing in every way compared to physical SIMs. What am I missing?
When I helped my dad get a new iPhone at an Apple store without my mom (who is the primary holder of the phone account), my dad had to give all sorts of information to the employee and had to jump through a bunch of hoops that involved my mom being on the phone to give to the employee (things like giving my mom's SSN to the employee, sending a text to my mom's phone, and some other things I cannot remember now).
After about 30 minutes of frustration, I saw that there was a physical SIM slot. We restarted the whole process to buy an unlocked iPhone and swapped the SIM card. That process took 3 minutes.
I also have no problems swapping my SIM between an Android, Pinephone, Pinepine Pro, and Librem 5 to test out various things. Or buying a used/new phone and not having to visit my carrier's store to switch the eSIM. Or permentantly swapping my SIM to a Pinephone. Every time I have had to visit my carrier's store, I have to dedicate an hour to it. I also REALLY don't want Best Buy or some other thir party handling my PII to swap an eSIM.
That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers.
Which can, and should change to something better than providing the SSN and passcode of the mobile network primary account holder who “owns” that phone number.
If anything, your experience should lead you to advocate to a quicker change to eSIM, so that your dad can control his phone number without needing someone else’s SSN.
> That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers.
Given that so many things are tied to a phone number (they shouldn't, but are), there should be strong authentication measures to transfer phone numbers.
That’s down to your network. I was able to buy an e-sim over the internet in a few minutes from Vodafone UK, while not even being in the UK, and set it up by scanning a QR code that got emailed to me.
Your problem isn’t the e-sim, it’s a shitty network.
Totally agreed. But networks in many (most?) countries have been shitty for a long time, and show no signs of improving. And they're so entrenched that we don't have much hope of replacing them even if something better suddenly showed up. This is the case in USA, Canada, Australia, the UK, and I'm sure a lot of other countries.
So no, I'm not going to applaud giving the networks even more power over my ability to switch phones and SIMs. Physical SIMs are nice because I can 99% cut the network out of my decision to switch phones -- all I have to do is pop the SIM into my new phone. I do not want to go through Verizon's, AT&T's, or any other archaic provider's process when dealing with my (or a family member's) phone upgrade.
It's a lot like the headphone jack removal: replace something that works great with a solution that works OK 90% of the time. But 10% of the time you're stuck in an edge case that isn't covered at all by the new, shinier solution.
I wasn't trying to buy a new number, I was trying to transfer an existing one. It doesn't surprise me that they make it as easy as possible to get a new one.
Either way, it's the behaviour of a crappy network rather than an issue with e-sims as a technology.
Not that that's unusual, most of the networks are crappy - vodafone was the only UK network I could find that didn't require you to go to one of their stores to get the QR code. Artificial barriers are erected at every turn.
Every time I've transferred my eSIM to a different phone, I had to get a QR code regenerated.
Physical SIMs can be swapped in seconds.
Was your experience of transfer simpler?
Have you ever switched SIMs continuously, in an ad-hoc way, because you had more SIMs than phones? This isn't that unusual if you're on a road trip or, especially, if you're relocating.
When I wanted to get new phone service, I could so instantly without getting the physical SIM, i.e. waiting for it to be shipped to me, or going to a store.
I switched to using an eSIM with the iPhone 11. I was frequently traveling internationally and wanted the convenience of quickly purchasing a local SIM at my destination for easy cheap data, while retaining my US eSIM for important communication back home.
It took [large US mobile operator] THREE days and multiple conversations to get the eSIM working. Multiple support techs either told me eSIM's did not exist or were not compatible with [large US mobile operator]. I sure hope this has improved in the US since my experience.
>Advocating for a far less convenient physical solution over a digital solution - on HN?
Maybe HN readers don't applaud knee-jerkλυ something just because it's digital.
As for which is "more convenient" that is what should be proved, not taken for granted. And this includes a lot of cases (travelling, using 2 phones, and so on).
Maybe once the carriers are forced to adapt, but in Canada they don't support them on most eSIM capable devices. Swapping an eSIM requires an app, entering values, waiting for the swapping process. Whereas a physical SIM I can just pop out and pop into another phone.
To me it is more loss of control of our devices; No headphone jack, Bluetooth doesn't actually turn off, no SD card slot, locking batteries and screens, powering off the phone but it is still awake, now no SIM card.
[yes I know some deeply buried settings can override the above]
I on the other hand have been on Verizon's no-SIM CDMA network. Didn't like it, and don't want to get back but this time giving the power to phone manufacturer's. SIM is giving power to the customer, and I actually don't understand those sheepish comments on HN.
Virtual sims are incredibly convenient for traveling. The first time I used one in Thailand it was magical: no need to buy and pop a physical SIM into your phone, and no need to take care and not lose your original SIM.
Thailand carriers are also competitive on the global stage due to the data arbitrage they get from so much inbound tourist data demand. The AIS SIM2Fly eSIM 130 country roaming SIM is 30% cheaper than Google Fi in about 90 countries and 60% cheaper in 30 Asian countries.
I recently had an iPhone repaired and apple wiped the device including the eSIM. I took it to the Verizon store and even they couldn’t get the eSIM working again and I walked out with a new physical SIM. They need to plan a lot more of the experience out before removing the SIM in my opinion as well.
Or Apple will just do it and the rest of the world will get on board. If Apple removes the SIM and people have a bad experience at Verizon, they will blame Verizon, not Apple.
Apple have a long history of not being afraid of getting ahead of the curve. Sometimes it works out (removal of floppy drive), sometimes it doesn't (lack of ports on the previous gen MBP).
For a lot of less technically inclined folks I think eSIMs would introduce a lot of complexity. Swapping a SIM card is rather straight forward, and I know that for example my mother could easily do it by herself and has done so in the past. I don't think she would be able to swap an eSIM using the customer portal of her operator if it was necessary. I could see this causing a lot of headache for customer support or nearby relatives ;)
Personally, I would also prefer to have the SIM-tray as a backup and for travel. Most prepaid plans in Europe still don't support eSIMs.
This is typical of Apple to force a technology change. That said, eSIM technology is ready and eSIM swapping is quite easy, and could become easier with some interface improvements. The issues with eSIM re-issuance are the biggest hurdle, but those fall on the carriers.
Switching between eSIMs on the same phone is very easy. But migrating the profile to another phone is somewhat complicated in my experience. Nothing you would want to do regularily in my opinion. Essentially you have to disable your old eSIM and create and then provision a new one. Some plans allow you to have multiple SIMs activated at the same time. But usually you have to pay extra for that.
As I remember, they just gave me a piece of paper with a QR code, I scanned it with my phone and here I have an esim. Are you saying eSim is now locked to my phone and if I scan the same paper with another phone it won't work?
The QR code contains a one time use code, used to authenticate with the LPA server and lets you to download the SIM profile from your carrier. Once scanned and eSIM installed, the QR code is no longer valid. The carrier must re-issue a new QR code for that SIM to allow you to load it on a different device.
That is how it works with my operator. Once the eSIM is activated, it's tied to the phone. But I'm not ruling out it's possible to make the QR code "reusable".
Getting a new eSIM is not terribly complicated. But you have to log in, click through some menues, wait for an SMS code and an email to arrive, wait a couple of minutes.
Agree switching devices is still a pain point with eSIM, but solvable by the telecoms and a push by Apple to eSIM only devices will speed this improvement.
There’s already an app called Airalo that lets you buy eSIMs in different countries. You don’t have to visit a shop to get a SIM which is better because in many countries the SIM shops will rip tourists off and/or there will be a language barrier issue.
Newest iPhones already come without SIM cards. They use ESIM modules. My phone has a sim slot that is empty. That space can be utilized to put in another useful chip, sensor or shrink the device dimensions.
Edit: you can still enroll in a different carrier when traveling with an ESIM because they’re often dual ESIM modules and the way to do it through GUI is trivial.
> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.
Thinner is absolutely better. The ergonomics and lightness of the iPhones 6 through 8 are far superior to the thick and heavy iPhones Pro of today. Without Jony Ive at the design helm to push the "single slab of glass" vision, the thickness and weight has been gradually creeping upward for years now to cram in more batteries and hardware. A return to thin iPhones would be a good thing.
> if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in
If you're traveling you sometimes need to show your passport and fill out forms in a foreign language (looking at you, Germany). Adding eSIM is a lot easier, and will let you keep your regular phone connected when someone rings you (which is not happening a lot lately) or sends you a code via SMS.
There are many reasons to keep SIM cards but traveling is not one of them.
It's not a major problem for many people visiting Germany since roaming charges no longer apply within EU and you can carry your operator's plan to other EU countries, which IMO eliminates the need to buy a new SIM card altogether for many people.
It only sucks if you come from somewhere else not in EU. Even then operators (iirc at least Vodafone) offer remote verification of documents over a video call, so it's not as painful as it might seem to be. I don't see how eSIM would make this easier, since the main pain point of verifying your identity will remain.
I don't think eSIM has a number, and so no verification is needed. I bought a German eSIM a month ago and it worked without any need to register. I never had to do any video call in a language I don't understand. eSIM just worked.
I just did this in Germany last week, it has gotten a lot more painful. They now want an official document showing your German address (Personalausweis or Meldebescheinigung) making it impossible for foreign visitors to get a German SIM. Two years ago it still worked with only my passport.
Next time I'll just do roaming on a prepaid card from my home country, unfortunately my current provider doesn't support roaming in Germany.
Traveling is absolutely one of them! You're making getting a local SIM sound much more difficult than it is; even in places like Germany the process is pretty quick and most places aren't anything more than give-currency-get-card. It's also very convenient to have a local phone number as many people are not excited about making an international call to tell you your table is ready (the alternative here is being forced into the panopticon of WhatsApp). It also encapsulates the trip nicely, nobody I give my number to while I'm there can call me when I get home unless I give them my real number.
I was traveling to Germany a month ago and read that "By law, all SIM cards in Germany now need to be registered on your name verified by your ID document (and an address) to be activated"[0] and "many more places sell SIM cards, than are allowed to register" and "newly purchased SIM card... doesn't work as you still need to register."
I then installed Airalo app and bought an eSim in five minutes, still at home. Once I landed, I had 4G service for a week.
On my trip, I was never asked for my (German?) phone number but had received multiple SMS verification codes to my regular line.
Plenty of countries don't allow no-locals to buy a sim or don't allow them to by a "good" sim so you get a local to buy a sim and then they give you the sim. Not going to work for eSim.
I also used to keep an extra sim for friends visiting. Can't do that with an eSim
> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.
For some reason this is what the phone manufacturers seem to think that people want and I don't know why. I don't think getting thinner and smaller phones has given me any extra value in the past decade. I would rather have a thicker phone with bigger battery.
eSIMs can be bad or good. I hope eSIMs eventually reduce carriers to a network you can choose to connect to, like your wifi. Choose it, choose a plan set, enter payment, switch plans, done. Hell you could have multi-plans simultaneously.
Travel to a new country? Same thing. No apps should even be required, it should be a native OS functionality.
TBH the entire concept of a SIM isn't needed anymore, cellular networks should become like wifi networks, and should be as easy to switch between too, complete with phone number portability.
People remember the bad old days of CDMA where a phone was bound to a network and there was no way to change it's internal esim. It doesn't have to be that way and most of the world doesn't do phone locking that much or at all anymore, much like your phone's wifi.
When cell networks become like wifi, the government excuses for KYC to buy fucking cell service would be reduced even further.
eSIMs would make it incredibly easy to switch between mobile phone providers. Startups like airalo.com exist already that magically enroll you with the foreign country's local carrier even before your train/flight's taken off. Roaming around would be so seamless, and there's no dicking around acquiring SIMs by handing handover your IDs to different vendors with questionable document security measures all over the world.
I don't have an iphone but I side with apple this time.
Using credentials(esim) for accessing phone networks looks much easier and practical than physical tokens. No need to wait 2 weeks to switch companies. No need to check if your phone supports dual sims, and which slot is the one with 4G/5G. Security won't be worse, remeber that sim swapping already exist.
It's a win for consumers. Would anyone use a physical token to access a wifi network? Even corporate wifi networks use credentials or digital certificates.
So use an Android. You have hundreds of manufacturers to choose from. People love Apple precisely because of their purist vision, and that's what made them the most valuable public company on earth.
While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required.
Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account with one of those behemoths in order to use just about any app. But still. The physical SIM is (was?) one of the last remnants of the freedom we had to switch phones.
I share your concerns but at the same time I think, why would we even need a SIM? Isn't it simply a device for accessing account on someones system?
We don't have SIMs for ADSL or Fiber internet? We don't have SIMs for Reddit ot Twitter? Why would we have SIMs accessing GSM networks? There's no fundamental reason why we simply don't sign in into these networks like signing in to HN.
Surely, it adds a layer of anonymity and freedom where you simply use the system by paying it however there's an ongoing trend all over the world of de-anonymisation. In many places they are asking for ID and other documents in order to provide you with a SIM.
Physical SIM now means, it's yet another obsolete tech that costs money and takes space inside the devices only to sustain anonymity that is no longer desired.
SIM is just another causality on the way towards the tightly controlled world.
IMHO, it needs to happen at some point but we also need to rethink our rights in a world that is run by these huge networks.
Wouldn't be nice if our phones could have simply scanned for the networks, receive the offers from the available networks, pay and start using it?
Because SIMs require the physical card. You cannot forge a SIM without the SIM itself. There's a physical second factor. Usernames and passwords get leaked all the time, and since Reddit et al are meant to be accessed by multiple devices, device-locking them would be antithetical and anti-consumer.
A phone service is implicitly device-locked (well, doesn't have to be, but it doesn't make sense to allow multiple devices per number anyway). Just using device credentials could allow anyone to log in with that information and use your subscription or pose as you.
As for ADSL or other forms of internet, there is already a second factor - ISPs generally know from which vicinity you are connecting from, and when you log in with your account information in your modem, they can match what's on your account to your physical "drop" and assert that it is at least within the same neighborhood - again, creating a physical second factor. This is also why your internet service generally needs to be "moved" whenever you change your residence.
A SIM card allows the freedom as the GP mentioned, without requiring someone from the centralized authority to process the request somehow.
There is a huge difference if you think about it for a bit.
SIM cards are famously the weak link in the 2FA. They have all kind of security issues as they are computers themselves.
The way forward is to get rid of the SIM and access those carrier networks through credentials, ideally I would love to see it as a cryptographic receipt that you get from your payment provider and pass it to the the carrier as a proof of right for account and usage of their networks.
SMS-based 2FA's weakness is not due to SIM cards. It's due to carriers being shit.
SMS-based 2FA is not exploited by breaking any cryptography or exploiting some software vulnerability. It's by "asking nicely" the carrier's customer support idiots to associate a new SIM to the target account & number.
Replacing the SIM with username/password wouldn't do anything - instead of the attackers having to associate a new physical SIM they'll just associate a new set of credentials.
Yes - carriers managed to find a company even more incompetent than themselves and outsourced sensitive data to them. It doesn't make SIMs insecure. No amount of authentication will help if the party you're authenticating to then decides to send your data to a compromised third-party.
By the way, CDR processing (aka parsing CSV files and figuring out how much to charge - rocket science I know) is also routinely outsourced to the lowest bidders with no doubt terrible security practices: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/
Those SIM engineers should build other unhackable systems too!
Anyway, it's not only social engineering but even if it was it simply means that it's useless for security.
Just yesterday, a friend of mine got a fringe hacking incident or a bug. We are not still sure if it was hack but somehow the SIM card in her phone identified as another number from another carrier. Who knows what happened, her SIM wasn't swapped it simply think that it's another number as she found out when started receiving notifications about her new number. Maybe it was Apple's bug or something but who cares, the physical SIM did not change anything.
> Those SIM engineers should build other unhackable systems too!
They did - see EMV payment cards for example.
> it simply means that it's useless for security.
It's not - SIMs close one attack vector where credentials can't be stolen by malware/bruteforced. Current SIM-swap attacks don't scale well; imagine how worse the problem would be if any Android malware could silently take over your number even after you've wiped the device clean.
The solution is to close the social-engineering attack vector by making carriers liable for any losses, not to remove a different layer of security because it's currently being bypassed by a different flaw.
> Who knows what happened
I doubt it was nefarious, I'll place my bets on misconfiguration somewhere. The telephone network is a massive mess and it could very well be that some carrier/equipment in the path rewrote the caller ID as something else.
Again, if you're skeptical of the government itself and allowing them to tap your communication lines, then I understand your hesitation here (although 2FA won't protect you against warrants), but outside of that it's actually simple incompetence of the carriers - SIM swap fraud attacks are common in North America but surprisingly fewer outside despite having the exact porting capabilities, probably because there's a waiting period (usually 48 hours) enforced where the current holder of the SIM card gets warnings about the impeding deactivation in other countries. Annoying if you lost your SIM card, sure, but is much better than having an unauthorised person getting a shiny new SIM card without warning.
> probably because there's a waiting period (usually 48 hours) enforced where the current holder of the SIM card gets warnings about the impeding deactivation in other countries
Not sure what's going on in other countries, but back when I was a phone store monkey in the UK this was not the case. A SIM swap could be done immediately and the previous SIM doesn't get any notification. If I remember right we needed to check ID, but we had no way nor proper training to tell a potential fake ID, nor what counts as an acceptable ID (the UK doesn't have mandatory ID cards, so a lot of people don't have ID) - I would defer to my manager in this case but I'm pretty sure the whole process was really at their discretion and whether the whole thing "feels" legit. Making it look like we'd get a sale is an easy way to sway the odds in your favour (we'd need to access the account anyway to make the sale, so you can play along and buy a new plan, and once we pulled up the account you can mention "oh BTW I need a new SIM" and we would oblige).
Fun fact: to access someone's account in-store we had to either text them a code and enter it in the web UI (good!) or provide knowledge-based answers such as amount of last bill, some digits of the ID/driver's license number or a security question answer. There was bruteforce protection, but here's the fun part - it was presumably implemented on the frontend only because you could reload the page on the last attempt and reset the counter of attempts! There were no consequences that I know of (neither from the company nor a notification/follow-up with the customer) to locking out an account either.
At least part of the system was Java-based (it blew up occasionally displaying a full stack trace full of PII) and was available over the Internet (there was a site-to-site VPN for the store, but the URL nevertheless loaded on a standard internet connection when I tried it probably due to misconfiguration, so it's very likely all of that was exposed during the Apache Struts or Log4J vulnerabilities).
I think the reason SIM Swap fraud isn't as common in the UK is either because getting the money out is more difficult or because other scams (authorized push payment fraud, scammers pretending to be tech support or tax authorities, etc) are just more profitable.
> There was bruteforce protection, but here's the fun part - it was presumably implemented on the frontend only because you could reload the page on the last attempt and reset the counter of attempts! There were no consequences that I know of (neither from the company nor a notification/follow-up with the customer) to locking out an account either.
Back when I had to use AllScripts EHR software, if I messed up my password three times, I'd just restart the client application. Bam, three more attempts, no need to wait ten minutes.
(I don't know if this is still the case, but I sure hope it's not.)
If you are skeptical of government, live off grid.
Sure are a lot of rugged individuals who can do it all (they claim) yet seem to not notice they hardly accomplish any more than anyone else without the help.
I’m skeptical of other humans period. You’re regurgitating the most reinforced rhetoric in your experience. You’re decoupled from the actual work implementing solutions to these problems, and the ease at which theft and fraud occur without technology.
There’s no such thing as a 100% secure system. Physics doesn’t allow it. Accept it. Lean into your biology to self soothe.
I may mistrust the government but like everything else it’s just people, not a black box.
Come on internet geniuses; open source and hardware are right there for you to make this happen. Get funding. Prove you can do better. Show you’re more than syntactic and semantic drivel.
The collective of people making your phone work are incompetent, says the person whose probably never tried. What a joke.
> but it doesn't make sense to allow multiple devices per number anyway
Why not? This is a useful behavior that is currently emulated by forwarding calls to laptops and tablets with the same account when the devices are on the same Wi-Fi. You could get rid of the Wi-Fi requirement if those devices all simply had an eSIM with the same number.
Number assignment is handled at the network level. I have the exact functionality you speak of (single number to multiple devices) on my company's good old physical SIMs.
Phones & SIMs don't even know nor care about their own number. The SIM has a field for that but in fact it's often left empty (iOS devices discover their own number by texting a known Apple number and getting the response via the Internet, they'll then populate this field out of courtesy but it's not necessary for functionality).
When a call comes in, the carrier decides which SIM it should be routed to. When a SIM makes an outbound call, the carrier decides which number to set as caller ID.
The functionality you speak of has nothing to do with SIM vs eSIM, it's about carriers having to actually innovate and do some engineering. Their current oligopoly means there's no commercial pressure for them to do so, and there's no reason why they would suddenly do this with the switch to eSIMs.
> iOS devices discover their own number by texting a known Apple number and getting the response via the Internet, they'll then populate this field out of courtesy but it's not necessary for functionality
TIL! Is that why in some countries and some SIM cards my iPhone can automatically report its own phone number (when I look at my own profile under 'Contacts') and in some countries it doesn't do that?
Carriers who assign numbers to SIMs in advance could set that field directly. Others, either because they don't assign a number at the time of the SIM manufacture/personalization or just because they can't be bothered as it's not functionally necessary will leave it blank - in that case from my experience iPhones will populate the field with the number they get back from the iMessage & FaceTime provisioning step but again that's not actually necessary for functionality. The field is also user-editable in Settings -> Phone if you wish.
The SIM card is even less secure than a username and password because someone just calls the carrier, reads out some sob story and gets your sim credentials transferred over to them.
The sim is nothing more than an auth token which can easily be duplicated.
I didn't say either of those things weren't true. Perhaps I should have used "cloned" instead of "forged" to be clearer. You can't remotely clone a SIM unless you use an OTA exploit or something. It's not the 'normal' case.
SIM is the second factor when it comes to proving that this device with this physical SIM is indeed accessing the network.
Fraudulent SIM swaps are attacking a different layer of the system, they are social-engineering underpaid idiots to associate a new SIM with a given account & number.
You could in theory social-engineer a bank to reissue someone's payment card and somehow intercept it in the post or steal it from their mailbox. That doesn't mean chip & PIN is insecure.
And from my understanding, these social engineering and sim swap problems are mostly ( if not all ) US specific. I have never heard anything near the order of magnitude of US sim swap from any other country. Most countries have Personal ID that are required and issued by government as verification. But even places like UK will require address and Driving License / Passport proof along with security questions.
I can only assume it's not more common because other scams are more profitable and/or not enough targets (banks, etc) use SMS 2FA as their only method of authentication so a SIM swap wouldn't give you much.
> I share your concerns but at the same time I think, why would we even need a SIM?
In the Before Times: handy for travel. Having a (e)SIM for your personal number (but perhaps disable data), and when you arrive at your destination just pop in a new physical SIM for local data (and calling).
> We don't have SIMs for ADSL or Fiber internet?
I wish we did. At least for ADSL you can use PPPoE to login into a network with whatever hardware you wish to use instead of the telco's often janky, underpowered stuff. With fibre (GPON) they often lock in the MAC of the optic, so good luck using something else besides whatever is provided. If you're lucky you can remove the SFP module and put it into whatever you want.
This may not be useful for 99% of the population, but given this is HN we're on, I think a lot of folks can appreciate being 'hardware agnostic'.
Otherwise we're back to the 1960s when only Officially Approved™ equipment can be connected:
AFAIK PON based system needs encryption/decryption by ONU because it separates single fiber passively so downlink can be tapped. Encryption key is burned to each ONU.
(All? Most? Many?) ONTs support 802.1X for authenticating network access, which supports EAP. And EAP-SIM is one available mechanism, though usually used on the wireless side of networking.
In Canada, Bell had their "Home Hub 3000" and plenty of folks took out the optic and put it in their own hardware; this possibility was 'discontinued' with the Home Hub 4000, which no longer has a removable optic. There is nothing inherent on the ONT that limits connectivity except the arbitrary telco design choices.
Fiber is actually quite complex. Most residential fiber going in today is GPON, and those systems are authenticated by the ONT, which is somewhat analogous to a hardwired SIM. Theoretically, you could reverse engineer the ONT and create your own, but you can expect to get your account closed if they catch you.
Then you have companies like AT&T who also force you to use their godawful routers and actively work to close off methods that allow using your own router.
And if you have metro-E, chances are the ISP provides their own media converter. Doesn't matter that they charge a $12k install fee and $1200/mo (for 500/500 - actual Comcast bill in Nashville, TN), they still won't hand you an SFP+ module.
The reason for it is because they are physically provided to your house so it would be redundant, but if that wasn't a case, imagine if we did have SIM for ADSL or Fiber. Getting access to your Internet service wherever you go without extra charges.
> We don't have SIMs for Reddit ot Twitter?
> Why would we have SIMs accessing GSM networks? There's no fundamental reason why we simply don't sign in into these networks like signing in to HN.
We have login and password, which are like SIM, but you can memorize them.
Imagine if your access to Reddit, Twitter, HN was tied to your computer, because that's essentially what you're advocating for.
> Imagine if your access to Reddit, Twitter, HN was tied to your computer, because that's essentially what you're advocating for.
You have missed the point. OP is talking about how ridiculous having a physical bit of plastic to log in to the cell towers is. The physical sim provides next to no value.
And it comes at a heavy cost in space inside the phone as well as annoyance waiting for a new sim to ship in the mail. While esim providers email you a QR code and you are good to go immediately.
> Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point
I’m far more worried about the SIM cards than Apple or Google.
Did you know that SIM cards run Java? Or that they can send text messages from your phone directly to the baseband without going through the phone itself? Your SIM is probably sending data to your carrier without you knowing. ( https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at-t-doing-at-1111... )
Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband.
> Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband.
Here a different perceptive on this.
SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I saved my older phone! That is so perfect because I can take the SIM from my primary phone and put it in the older phone. viola it works! all of that take within 5 mins.
Without SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I still have my older phone... oh wait, they don't have a SIM. So I am stuck without my phone for a week and need to have access to my phone now! Wait let me see if I can open my older phone and see what I can do. turns on yay it still works... no cellular signal? Oh right right, I forgot this phone don't have SIM. Oh ok I guess I have to go through the internal app to get it over to this phone. Why this app kept failing?! C'mon I just need my phone to work because I am expecting calls for potential future job that I might get it! two weeks later with new phone at the door Great... I didn't get the job because the mobile company and insurance been dragging this long as possible. All of this might take two weeks.
This is why people favors SIM because it can be taken out and put in other phone within minutes. In other side, people will be stuck without phone for a while because of this stupidity.
Sure, but the sim doesn't have access to the main CPU, main memory, storage, or sensors (without help from an app which can just as easily leak data without help from the sim) I fail to see how it compromises security any more than an eSIM.
The full portability won't be the same across multiple regions, especially internationally. Also, there is a good chance it gets tied to the device/contract you are on, similar to how the phone contracts in the US were a few years ago.
To transfer an eSIM to your new iPhone, you can scan the QR code your network provider gave you, use your network provider's iPhone app or install an assigned mobile data plan. When your mobile data plan is activated on your new iPhone, the plan on your previous iPhone will deactivate.
There’s also https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655: Find out how to transfer an eSIM or physical SIM from your previous iPhone to an eSIM on your new iPhone. You can also convert your physical SIM to an eSIM on your iPhone.
I think phones still can be SIM-locked, but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs.
I just got a new iPhone and transferring a prepaid T-Mobile (US) eSIM from my old iPhone was not supported. T-Mobile say it themselves on their website.
> but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs.
For all the advantages of eSIM, this is absolutely not true.
> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required.
This is not really true:
1. SIM-lock is a thing, where providers prevent you from using the phone with another SIM (because they sold you the phone below cost and you're paying it back through your subscription cost)
2. IMEI lock is a thing too, unfortunately. The situation might be different now but in 2011/2012 it was near impossible to use a local SIM in your phone in Japan because phone providers wanted to sell you a phone with a SIM so you can't use your desired phone.
> If you have purchased a recent smartphone directly from AT&T or T-Mobile, then you very likely have nothing to worry about here. However, if you’re using an unlocked device or a device on a custom ROM, then you’ll want to pay attention to what’s coming. Since AT&T whitelists devices for VoLTE compatibility, you won’t be able to BYOD to the carrier starting February 2022 unless the carrier changes its practices or whitelists a lot more devices.
This was my thoughts as well. It seems like we just drove around in a circle and ended up back where we have to contact the provider when we change phones.
I'm actually more worried about a different problem - I don't care about removing the physical SIM slot but I'm really concerned about halving the amount of numbers someone can have on a single device.
Phone numbers are an utterly terrible system. Having to give a single number out to everyone is a stupid beyond belief design that we just tolerate year after year. That SIM-based 2FA exists makes this even worse.
Apple has already shone a light on this and basically shown their customers that having a single primary-key-for-contact circulate to everyone is insane - which is why they now have the private relay for e-mail. I have my own reservations about the relay, but we really should move to single-number-per-contact and make that the norm.
And yes, I realise this wouldn't be supported by the current phone networks, which is why Apple/Google need to be the people to introduce a vendor-agnostic system as a layer above the current phone networks (akin to a private relay for phones).
This is not unprecedented - they've collaborated on a lot of standards before (matter is a recent example that comes to mind).
Multiple numbers is already technically possible and does not require eSIM. It does require the carrier to innovate and actually do some engineering though, and there's no market pressure for them to do so.
Vodafone UK still associates your contract with a phone number. That is, if you wanted to keep the contract and re-associate your phone number with a new contract that is not possible without paying for the remaining months on the contract.
Potentially, but my point is that it's a commercial decision or incompetence (maybe the number is used as the primary key for the contract record?) - technically there is no reason for this.
It’s incompetence driven by the market conditions: nobody on the market can do that and therefore no one is motivated to do that. I can understand that maybe not many customers ever need this too. AFAIK the engineer on the other side of the call said nobody provides such a service in the UK.
FYI, iPhone 13 generation devices already have 2 eSIMs, as in you can have dual standby without a physical SIM. I'm not a fan of this direction but I don't think we're going to lose dual SIM support.
I haven't thought about this too deeply, but I was thinking if you can have every phone come with "free" global network access - just data. i.e. get rid of the current tech for voice calls, so that all phone calls will be over a VOIP type service. And you can't use the phone without an active account with one of the providers that participate in this global access program. Each provider can bill other providers on the backend when a roaming subscriber uses their network.
This is exactly how I imagine it would work, albeit with a standard provision being made by Apple and Google as a starting point, something like a universal federated VOIP (they'll come up with a decent brand name for it obvs). If you're on Android you can get UFVOIP in your Google One subscription, or with Apple I'd assume it would be an iCloud+ feature. And then obviously slick contacts integration at the O/S level so that it's seamless to add a new contact - something like when you want to add someone you click "Add Contact" and it gives you a QR code for them to scan on their device to add you.
This could even generate a new relay e-mail for them in the same process so that a single QR code gives them the name and both a unique-to-them phone number and e-mail address to contact you, and adds it to their contacts automatically.
Sharing of contact details could be done by a side-channel:
1) Someone I already know and trust asks to share my contact details to a third party.
2) I get a prompt on my device asking to confirm I want to connect with this new person.
3) A diffie/hellman exchange sets up a secure channel between myself and this new third party.
4) We both confirm we want to add each other.
5) A unique e-mail address and phone number is generated on each device and sent across the channel to the other party.
6) Both parties have now established a new contact for the other party with contact details completely unique to them.
This would entirely resolve a whole class of issues around data protection/harassment/privacy.
If anyone at any time wishes to rescind contact permission they can just burn that contact link. Sure, you could be contacted via someone else that also knows both of you but there's a massive disincentive to pass along your details without your consent - you'll know who passed along your details because they'll be the same unique details you issued to someone else, and you can freely burn their contact link too.
> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required.
In virtually all countries sans a couple of dictatorships and other authoritarian regimes, you have many network providers to choose to buy an eSIM from - the US alone has 109 MVNOs plus the five network providers per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_v.... You also have the right to have your phone number ported.
When you want to switch your phone and your provider does not allow you to request a new eSIM profile, you can switch both the phone and the provider.
There are many things to criticize about modern phone markets - the lack of a right to root your phone and the lack of portability between app stores (not just purchases, but also stuff like game progress!) are the most important ones - but the switch to eSIM is not a problem at all.
Where I live (Germany) this is completely unfeasible and untrustworthy for yet another reason: telcos and ISPs (the big telcos here are ISPs as well). There are not many industries where contract agreements are handled by electronic and manual processes so unreliably, erroneous and intransparently as they are at ISPs and telcos. I wouldn't trust them with managing an eSIM for me ever. Given how important a phone number is these days, again, never. When the simplest processes don't work (point in case: wanted to change a prepaid plan online (should be possible) -- it was not possible, buttons simply greyed out for no reason and/or missing, customer rep totally clueless).
There’s still IMEI locks. A lot of prepaid carriers in Europe won’t or can’t sell you a SIM card for a US phone (one man claimed it was due to carriers trying to reduce phone theft). Note, my phone was fully paid for, and therefor unlocked.
With my Samsung Android phone I had to call my carrier's customer support and obtain the unlock code from them. So it wasn't unlocked automatically after it was fully paid for. When I traveled to Europe I just bought a local carrier SIM from a vending machine at the airport.
Automatic unlocks is mostly an iPhone thing. iOS manages SIM locks differently (in fact on modern devices the modem itself isn't even locked, instead it's all done at the OS-level; Apple has a mapping of serial number to authorized carrier(s), to which the carriers can request changes remotely without having to provide an unlock code or requiring any user action).
You don't need a google account to use an android phone, there are fantastic open source apps on f-droid, and you can even access the play store without a google account using aurora store. If you have root you can fully degoogle (PITA but gratifying), even without it's a big privacy upgrade to just disable the google apps and log out of google.
But it's so easy to move an eSIM to a different phone - if this suddenly stopped you'd get a lot of public backlash, much like if moving a physical SIM stopped working. In the meantime, this works just fine switching eSIMs between devices, so your concern is just hypothetical, or have I missed something?
In EU, an eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM.
The biggest difference is that a physical SIM gives you a slightly higher level of security, at least in theory (then, phone carriers do a lot to screw this up anyway).
> eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM.
What does this mean in practice though? Some carriers already charge to reissue an eSIM.
With a physical SIM you can use the same one until you break it. An eSIM is "consumed" when it is provisioned into a phone and you need the carrier's cooperation to get a new one which gives them the option to charge or just be assholes in general.
Get a Huawei !! It's actually liberating: nothing Google made works on those, so you're forcefully put on a Google diet, it's not Apple, Huawei stuff are only really good if you'in China: you're stuck with F-Droid and the Aurora Store, surviving as you can without ANY integrated ecosystem.
It seems silly but I never felt so free, esp after I turned on an all-blocking firewall that only whitelist the apps I want, when I want.
Last time I was in SE Asia it wasn't uncommon to see people carrying multiple SIM cards. They were sold cheap and providers were constantly undercutting each other on mobile data. This was almost a decade ago now, but given how Asian variants of phones still have dual SIM slots I'm guessing it's still common.
Asian eSIMs are common now. For example the Thai travel sim you would get at the BKK airport can be purchased online as an eSIM - so you can skip that local queuing and currency exchange experience.
I have 4 SIM cards from 4 different countries that I need to keep. Mostly because I have bank accounts in those countries and banks either dislike foreign mobile phone numbers or accept them but then are unable to send any 2fa tokens quickly enough to those foreign phone numbers for the 2fa tokens to still be valid.
So, I actually wish I had a quadruple sim phone, as it is I have two dual sim phones to handle this (with one that mostly stays at home).
The viewpoint of never needing to change sim cards is very US centric (or better said, affluent people in a lot of other countries tend to need multiple SIM cards).
Out of the 4 sim cards I have, only one provider supports eSIM. And yes, I'm aware that some iphones can use dual sim with an eSIM but the HK model which is better is dual SIM (with no eSIM).
You can't do quadruple esim, but arguably the experience with 4 esims on a single device is much better than carrying 4 sims.
"You can store more than one eSIM in your iPhone, but you can use only one at a time. To switch eSIMs, tap Settings, tap either Cellular or Mobile Data, and then tap the plan you want to use. Then tap Turn On This Line." [1]
On the iPhone 13, you can actually use two esims at the same time.
Presumably this will be an inflection point for eSIM availability and you'll be able to add all 4 plans to your phone and switch to any 2 of them on the fly.
Need to send my phone to repair soon, if they say it will take more than a day then I will rent a phone from them. I can put my current sim in their replacement phone in a few seconds. Can't imagine how long it would take with the eSim.
"You don't do it so often" is not an argument for eSims
Oh you think the cookie bs right now is bad for your privacy, can't wait for this eSIM shit show to come to light in a few year, it will be absolute privacy nightmare.
The e-SIM provisioning process is under the control of the carrier. They give you a QR code (or SM-DP string) which you scan/enter, your phone then contacts the carrier and after some back and forth acquires cryptographic keys which are stored in the eSIM chip.
There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason.
I can see them taking advantage of this to prevent travellers using local SIMs for example - sure you can delete your eSIM and get a local one, but getting your own eSIM back will be difficult or outright impossible if you're still travelling (they may require physical ID verification, etc).
> There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason.
Even worse, in many real cases. Let me give you an example, happened to me this October:
I get a new phone. I browse my carrier's website to find out how to transfer the eSim to the new one, but find nothing. I call them, they tell me it's impossible. I ask them to double check because this doesn't seem realistic - after one day of internal checks, they contact me saying they found a way! I just have to request to be migrated back to a physical SIM (costing me 15 EUR and 1 week of waiting), and when it will arrive I'll be able to migrate it to an eSIM again!
Isn't technology amazing?
This was in Germany, the operator is Congstar, an MVNO using Deutsche Telekom's network.
In all fairness, this is Congstar being shit, a low-cost MVNO. They could also be shit by locking your SIM to the first IMEI they see on their network, so the only difference is that they need to establish a porting process for eSIM but haven't done so.
That’s literally how it works… You can have as many eSIMs as you’d like, I currently have 8 on my phone and can choose which two I want to have active at any time.
I’m not sure why nextgrid is constructing this weird technological strawman.
Apologies - I was not aware you can have multiple eSIMs stored. If that's the case it lessens the impact, though switching between phones is still a problem.
True - my point was that the carrier can't prevent you from physically switching SIMs and locking them at the network-level to an IMEI would cause backlash as it would break long-established conventions.
With eSIM, not only are they in control of switching eSIMs between devices but it also gives them a clean slate to introduce the aforementioned network-level restriction under excuses such as security (though again since they're in control of switching eSIMs they can just block it there or be annoying in other ways - some carriers already charge for reissuing eSIMs despite it being a completely automated process).
eSIMs significantly reduce the friction of switching between carriers and will inevitably force carriers to suck less. Especially in a world where people increasingly only care about data.
Exactly. I did not wanted to respond anymore, as the downvotes discouraged me to continue the discussion. I believe the “they are taking our freedoms!” do gather more attention.
When I wanted to move to a new phone, I simply deleted the data profile from my old phone and scanned the QR code on the new one, as the provider suggested. It just worked.
This assumes the provider wants to be nice and make it that way - yours does in this case. eSIM however gives them the option to make the QR codes single-use and require payment or additional verification before giving out another one.
Some commenters here are correctly saying that the carrier could technically prevent physical SIMs from being moved between phones by restricting which IMEIs are connecting to the network, but that's not usually done and there's an established convention that SIM cards can be moved around. eSIM gives them a blank slate to start over and break that convention without much backlash.
It exist, yes. But isn't used much in practice (where I live at least). I think it is illegal to charge to unlock them so the incentive for them to exist disappeared entirely.
Which kind of highlighted that it was a dark-pattern that only served to trick customers.
Kind of reinforces the notion that we should be worried...
This is absolutely not true, there are a ton of phones with better DAC/amp combos than the one on the Apple dongle (and even when the dongle is better, it's frequently not better by enough to be audibly different). Unfortunately some of the best analog audio came on phones that were made by LG who threw in the towel last year.
It's very good indeed, but last I recall it measured slightly worse than the built-in 3.5mm Jack in previous iPhones. But it still likely exceeds transparency especially for the form-factor and use case.
I don't understand this sentiment, instead of pleading with a phone manufacturer to implement certain features why not put your money where your mouth is and, you know, buy any of the pleothra of phones out there that do have a headphone jack.
It's just tongue-in-cheek banter, don't take it too literally. Besides, Apple devices make a sizeable portion of the market and have 'ecosystem' buy-in features that many other phones (w or w/o h jacks) don't have.
Yes, because the ONLY feature I take into account when buying a new device that I carry in my pocket literally every day of my life is how good the headphone jack is.
Because it's not possible. I need a ~5.5" Android phone, with SD Card, OLED, 2 SIM, headphone jack and 3 years of software updates. Not sure there is a phone like that, so I don't know what I will be doing when my current phone dies.
The Sony Xperia line up has SD card slots, headphone back, and dual SIM capability. I don't think they have OLED, but the screens get good reviews. Looks like you can expect only 2 years of updates though.
Maybe check out last gen phones that are supported by LineageOS?
That's what I'll do once my OnePlus 3 (still getting updates with LOS) dies or is too slow.
I have more or less the same requirements and the Fairphone 3+ did it for me. Only downside is that spare parts take a long time (3+ months) to be back in stock.
I can't understand why anyone would want this. Being able to physically swap sims so I don't ever have to deal with carrier customer service is a /good/ thing, especially when it's in the carrier's interest to make this as difficult as possible.
I tried to activate an iPhone on an existing Google Fi plan using eSIM, and it was a nightmare. The frontline support is responsive, but can't do anything about it. The specialists I was escalated to were useless, and only reachable by email every day or two.
After a week of this nonsense, it occurred to me that maybe I could start over with a physical SIM card. I chatted with frontline support again, and he said he was positive that would work. (So why didn't anyone suggest that?!) I couldn't use the old card, because it was clearly beyond their capabilities to reactivate a perfectly good SIM card, but I was able to buy a new one at Best Buy and complete the process in about five minutes.
I would have swapped the card in the first place and been blissfully ignorant of the eSIM fiasco, but I somehow had it in my head that the iPhone used a smaller card than the five-year old phone it was replacing. It may not be eSIM's fault, per se, but if the design is dependent on carrier competence, it's fatally flawed, as far as I'm concerned.
You are aware you can have 10 or more eSIMs plans on an iPhone, right?
You are free to swap between them as you wish? You are only locked into a single carrier if you purchase the iPhone thru that carrier. Always purchasing and unlocked phone is what solves this.
All of this depends on the good graces of the company that wrote the software, and I don't see how they can be trusted over good ol' physically removing a card and putting a different one in. Especially when they have a track record of being abusive to customers.
I mean, cars are a great example of a technological advancement that absolutely ruined lots of places around the world:
- city centers, rendered noisy, rotted out of businesses, and replaced with parking lots
- rural areas rendered completely car-dependent since roads are no longer walking-friendly
- small towns who lost their entire downtown strip because people would rather drive their car to wal-mart
- millions of pedestrian deaths worldwide per year because cars make it very easy to "accidentally" kill people
So... I guess the lesson is that it is exactly that kind of debate, and that there are pros and cons on both sides?
The long term SIM cards (Virgin UAE, Three HK, Lifecell Ukraine) with phone numbers I can easily transfer by going on the carrier apps or websites.
But we’re rapidly headed towards a data-only world where the SIMs are essentially disposable, there’s nothing you’d care about transferring except perhaps some prepaid data you have left.
SIM Swapping attacks are not performed by physically stealing a SIM from someone’s phone. They usually involve having someone who works at the carrier making changes in the system to route calls/data to a different IMEI. Physical or eSIM would be irrelevant in that case.
SIM swapping has nothing to do with a physical SIM. It's convincing the carrier to reissue a new SIM and associate it to the previous account. It can be done just as well with e-SIMs - in that case the carrier will give you an SM-DP code instead of a physical SIM.
I, for one, would ditch telecoms in a heartbeat if this were a thing.
Why?
> VZ Msg: Introducing Verizon Custom Experience. VZ content & offers are more relevant using web browsing & app usage info. For info or to opt-out: m.vzw.com/CE
Received this earlier this month. Verizon and others can go fuck themselves.
This is most definitely part of it. Google dipped its toes into the ISP world with Google Fiber and made a big splash. Now Apple is starting to feel confident they can deploy their own phone service. They can just deploy their service using current infrastructure (already happens a lot in Europe with low-cost ISPs). And they have such weight that they will eventually force ISPs to do their bidding, lest Apple leaves them. You wouldn't want to be the network where iPhones are not supported.
You're misinterpreting what eSIMs are if you think they provide a new way to connect to the network, they don't. They are simply a new sim form factor, so step two in your analysis is unrealistic as the mobile equipment is still owned by mobile operators. There's literally no difference with current sim other than the sim being embedded in the device and the users being allowed to install multiple profiles on it.
I don’t think they were assuming eSIMs provide a new type of connectivity. I think they were referring to the fact that these embedded SIMs are more integrated into the device and therefore physically agnostic to the mobile operator of choice. This would make switching from e.g. Verizon to Apple like switching from from Netflix to Disney+ – much easier since it’s fully software-based. For Apple that would be easy to bundle with the rest of their services. Yet another thing that will retain customers in their ecosystem.
Disclaimer: I've been working in the eSIM ecosystem for the past 3 years.
The integration in the device doesn't really mean the device manufacturer has more control on the sim, far from it. The integration is limited to the interface needed to download/enable/disable profiles, what's referred to as an LPA (local profile assistant). Still OP is misinterpreting that this somehow gives the ability to device manufacturer, which are not network providers, to somehow be able to now step into the telco space. The reality is far from it and Apple cannot provide such service. What they do on the field though, is market devices are easier to use and follow up with mobile operators so that the integration is seamless.
No headphone jack. No SD slot. Soon no charging port (wireless). Now no sim car. How soon before there are no plugs whatsoever? Once everything is wireless then apple, through software, can finally take absolute control over how and what is connected to their phones. Want to communicate with or even charge an iPhone? You better be running approved and licensed software. Then the phone can be physically locked like a seamless vault, defeating any potential for repair: the ideal consumer product.
It’s not like that kind of control isn’t possible with the ports installed today.
The Bluetooth can ask what devices it’s connected to, the SIM card reader can read which SIM card is inserted and the lightning port can ask what’s at the other end of the cable.
My android phone still has a USB port on it that comports with USB standards. Google cannot limit which devices can charge my phone, which USB cables I use to tether my devices.
Actually, they can, and do. The Pixel 6 will not charge with cables and chargers Google deems "low quality", which seems to be anything that doesn't meet the USB-C spec.
The phone rejects non-spec cables, cables that might actually harm the phone. It doesnt reject cables based on manufacturer. Google doesnt own the spec.
I'm curious how this is different from the terrible dystopia you described in your root comment. Google is telling you which cables you can and cannot use.
IMO, this is on manufacturers. If they stop messing around with the USB standard and stop the hybrid approach with USB and propriety crap along with it, then we would have this issue minimized as possible. Nintendo did with their USB-C propriety thing and it blew up on their face. Because they changed the internal (which is not in compliance with USB standard) and ended up multiple consumers have their Switch bricked.
One of the reasons USB-PD has active power negotiation is because of all the terrible $1-to-make chargers that flood phone stores and degrade your battery capacity over time. The kind that either: (A) charges your battery in pulses, (B) tries to force-send more current than the phone can handle for "faster charging", or (C) improperly protects the connected device from power grid spikes.
USB-PD then makes power negotiation a protocol rather than a dance of resistors, forces the device to have a dedicated charging circuit (regulate current), and allows for a device to say "please send less power now" or shut off charging if it overheats.
Manufacturers change the ports and occasionally you have a Nintendo that wants to reuse a port with their own mini-spec, but most of the blame lies with those outright malicious chargers.
Famously Apple used to prevent iPhones from being charged with “non-lienced” lighting cables.
They seemed to have slackened of since then, but for a while there was a 50/50 odds of a cheap 3rd party cable causing iOS to throw up an error message and refuse to charge.
2023. Apple's been telegraphing the move to portless non-"pro" devices for years now.
> Want to communicate with or even charge an iPhone? You better be running approved and licensed software.
In fact, charging options will finally be standard across their product line — Qi for non-pro devices, USB-C for pro devices. Communication will happen via Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and UWB.
This explains why Apple's been dragging its feet on switching from Lightning to USB-C. No sense switching if you're killing it in a few years, and it can only anger customers.
I think we'll see a big rise in phishing attacks if this comes to pass. Unlike physical SIMs where you can move them about yourself, you often have to call support to change an eSIM. So, mobile companies are going to have to make it even easier to change eSIMs. And it's not like mobile providers are known for security. T-Mobile gave up my personal details to the world along with 50 million others a few months back.
Depending on the country they cannot, in mine there are regulations, where they cant/wont move my number without my fingerprint verification and otp verification from an existing device
People are saying this is bad because you won't be able to swap phones without relying on the carrier to provision a new eSIM for you. I have the same gut reaction, but with my current physical SIM, I have to install the carrier's app, and there are many phones which don't work with my carrier, despite being unlocked phones and unlocked SIMs. And let's not forget that locking phones and SIMs has been common practice for awhile. So, while I don't have a good feeling about this, I'm not sure that the freedom of choice argument really holds water.
Your mobile network provider demands you to install an app? Thats… unique in my UK based experience.
Over here any provider apps are entirely optional and just a convenience AFAIK; and phones you’ve bought outright (or reached the end of the contract period on) are unlocked (or you have the right to have them unlock it).
Thats why this is a big change and potnetially bad news for many smaller UK operators who don’t currently have eSIM support baked into phones
I have literally never had to worry about my phone not taking the SIM out of the box. Put the SIM in, maybe reboot, and I'm off to the races. Is this a USA carrier thing??
I (before COVID…) travel somewhat regularly and have a collection of SIM cards from my most frequently travelled destinations making just arriving and going about my life a nice straightforward process. I haven’t seen anything to indicate eSIMs have anything close to this experience and I feel like losing the option to do so for some perceived modernness is a bit disappointing.
I'm not sure about all your use cases, but I had great success with Airalo when traveling. It was data only, but my normal Verizon number was routed through that data connection. The biggest negative was not really being able to make local calls. There's a few other companies that do the same thing (GigSky and a few others that I can't remember).
It was my first time traveling internationally that I felt like it was a great solution.
The problem with those roaming SIM packages is that they're usually dramatically more expensive than just buying a local SIM. It's fine if you only travel sporadically, but if you travel often it really adds up.
Example: I have a SIM from Free (French carrier) that gives me 150GB data in France and 25GB of roaming data throughout the EU and a few other countries for €20/month. It would cost more than double that to match the allotment with the travel carriers you find on e.g. Airalo.
I think the problem is less eSim vs Sim, and more market forces. I think the hope would be that if eSims are the only option for iPhones, it'll force more and more carriers to support eSim.
I’m still traveling and find swappable sims to be a fantastic advantage. I have yet to find a country that offers eSims for prepaid. European phones commonly have dual sim slots..
I don't think it's a niche hobby (though I could be wrong as I have no data on it, just some thoughts). Any person that travels frequently has at least entertained the thought of buying a local SIM. Many people have actually done so.
For example, I went to Sweden for a month, and in those days calling in the EU wasn't a thing. I bought a Swedish SIM for if I'd meet people there (and I did). 10 years later, I traveled in Thailand for a month and I wanted internet. I bought a Thai SIM got internet for like, 10 euro's? And that was that. The fact that Apple disallows me this freedom means I will have to switch once the Covid issues start to become less of a thing.
Also (I don't know anything about Thailand, just just some quick searching), it seems at least the largest provider in Thailand has essentially the same service: https://www.ais.th/esim/en/ where you can buy the eSim either online or in a shop.
Thailand travel SIMs, like the DTAC Tourist SIM, are usually purchased in the airport after you get luggage and pass immigration. Now that this same SIM is sold online as an eSIM, you can buy it before you arrive. Skipping that extra step seems to be a plus over physical SIMs.
In order to effectively do business in these countries, being able to make phone calls and have a predictable phone number while in country is incredibly useful, this is what I’m referring to. I guess the result is a collection of sorts, but these things get used regularly, and the ability to swap and go on my own schedule is what I’d like to see from eSIMs before I lose the ability otherwise.
How does this work for you with eSims now? On a recent trip I had eSims from 3 countries where I did just this (data only, because I didn't need a phone number). I just turned them off and on at will.
China seems to be the the curious technology laggard here, and I've not yet seen the reason why. Till now, China still requires that Apple omit the eSIM technology and forces iPhones sold in HK and China to have 2 physical SIM card slots. Chinese handset makers are mostly omitting eSIM support as well, with only a couple high eSIM models between Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo and others. Then even more interesting is that there are a few Chinese sellers of eSIMs data plans. Very interested to know the reason why China has held back support for eSIM...
Can anyone discuss the privacy implications here please? I assume to use eSim you'll be required to have a working internet connection - there are still many dark spots in the world. What data does eSim need? Can anyone outline the data structures being sent from my device?
It's still possible to access the network pesudo-anonomously with a physical sim, I can only assume a "selfie to activate eSim" is going to happen sooner rather than later.
You'll need to have a connection once when you provision the eSIM. There may be some way in the spec for the device to use the network itself for that connection, similarly to how you can make emergency calls without a SIM card.
But even if you don't have a connection now and try to provision it, I'd assume the phone would just cache the SM-DP code for later provisioning in the background when a connection is available.
Privacy-wise, there is no difference. It gives the carriers more opportunities to be assholes and justify some new hostile requirements due to the switch to eSIM, but once an eSIM is provisioned it behaves just like a physical SIM.
You only need an internet connection the moment you're activating the eSIM for the cryptographic keys to be downloaded. From that moment forward it acts just like a regular SIM card.
Owning a device that can connect to the internet doesn't mean it can at that moment.
We need to stop assuming humans can connect to an endpoint over a network 24/7 365. There are times when you may not be able to, for all sorts of reasons, make a HTTP request at a given moment.
Networks fall over, riots happen, dictators just shut it off. Dangerous precedent to set.
Yea and many authoritarian government can simply block websites and if it happens to be apple asn? I think there should be fallback otherwise its going to be debacle.
> What can go wrong when everybody can program your SIM remotely?
That's bollocks. An eSIM module is exactly the same chip as in a normal SIM card - right down to the electric specifications and communication protocols, so you can hook up a provisioned eSIM module to a phone or a SIM card to a device using an eSIM chip and it will Just Work (tm).
The only difference is that the eSIM module is allowing the baseband chip to flash a new set of cryptographic keys, a process that will (usually) require the cooperation of the main SoC to get and transmit said keys.
The only scenarios where an attacker could reprogram your SIM remotely is either a malicious actor in the provider network (at which point there is the question why an attacker would want to reprogram your SIM at that point, given all they can do is give your SIM card access keys to another network) or a malicious actor with an IMSI catcher.
In both scenarios the attacker would require an exploit in your specific baseband and the correct cryptographic keys (or yet another exploit) for the eSIM to accept the new profile... and at the degree of knowledge, hardware and the actual exploits required to get to the point a successful attack requires, your attacker will be a government or an NSO-scale enterprise. And seriously, at that point you already have lost anyway because they have exploits for the OS you're running on whatever device you use, they don't need to deal with taking over your SIM card.
A lot of phones already support eSIM. Apple will claim they invented it and some will copy the no Sim slot but there are still carriers that don't support eSIM so I don't see this taking off like removing the headphone jack.
> If I can move my eSIM to a new phone, so can an attacker.
No, they can't - there is (at least for modern SIM cards and eSIM modules, see [1]) no way short of decapping the chip to extract the secret keys once they are on the chip, and even de-capping is something that the chip industry has gotten pretty good on defending against.
An attacker would have to request a new eSIM profile (aka, new keys) from your provider to hijack your number, which is an entirely different threat model.
I don’t know how you can say they can’t. The eSIM is just a number. An attacker can install it exactly the same way I did: I copy-pasted some numbers from an eSIM provider’s app.
I’m not talking about getting the number from the phone, but directly from the operator.
This is already a problem with regular SIM cards and people social-engineering customer support reps into getting their SIMs provisioned with other people's numbers.
Carrier incompetence will exist regardless of if the SIM is physical or virtual.
The current and last several iphones have been dual sim, one physical and one eSim.
I'm wondering if they keep an eSIM-only model as having two eSIMs.
The dual sim implementation is very weird, like its clear they only imagine that someone is popping in a different SIM for travel, as opposed to just having two numbers they use all the time like I do. Even most of the support is catered to travellers with a temporary second physical sim.
The OS implementation is odd, but has gotten better. Only FaceTime can't differentiate.
But I really wish Apple would do more contact management, even with permissions. Should be a way to silo certain contacts. Not every app I share contacts with should know every contact.
iPhone and Pixel had/have a serious bug that can't do emergency call on specific dual SIM setup (dual (e)SIM installed but one SIM is data-only) in Japan. Apple takes over 2 months to fix this, Google still not fixed after 1 month. I wonder how they miss.
eSIMs are good but it doesn't eliminate the bureaucracy/paper work involved with acquiring an actual network connection, esp for those traveling across countries. Unless ofcourse you are willing to pay those listed roaming charges(some of which appear as hidden charges). Not sure what eSims or even Apple as a company can do about that?
Here in Switzerland eSIMs are actually massively worse - you can't swap them around on most operators without calling (!) their support line to manually release and regenerate the eSIM token.
Meaning that swapping between phones now requires calling, possibly expensive, support lines and you better hope your phone issue didn't happen during holidays. And that you have a working backup phone. And you're not in a foreign country trying to put your SIM back.
It's a massive regression of convenience against simply swapping a small chip.
As per telecom regulation, you cannot get a new eSIM online. The only way is visiting telecom service center in person, verify your ID, pay the fee (about 10 USD), finally got a printed eSIM QR code.
It implies you must pay $10 when you switch to a new phone every time. worse than Physical SIM card.
My carrier in Canada has one-time use eSIM tokens that you can only buy in-store and only from select stores and it costs four times as much as an actual SIM card (20$ for an eSIM token QR code vs $5 for SIM card). If you need to use the eSIM on another phone, you need to buy another 20$ QR code.
I believe it depends on the provider - in Italy there are three that currently support esims. A couple (Tim, Vodafone) let you rescan the qr-code multiple times with different phones. The third (Wind) provides a one time use qr-code, you need to show up at the shop and buy a new code (no idea if the serial is the same or not).
In every case you still need to wait for the qr-code to be posted at your mailbox (even if you can sign the contract online).
I noticed this is a bone of contention among the HN community. It is clear why: both wired and wireless headphones have their advantages and inherent problems that had been discussed ad nauseam. In general, there is no problem as we are free people able to choose what we want and need. The problem appears when a company with a dominant position in the market declares one of these technologies dead and pushes their users towards the other one.
It's not just wireless audio. The same happened with the Ethernet: while most people use WiFi, Ethernet (especially Gigabit and faster) also has its advantages. Removing an Ethernet port is not an improvement: it is a statement.
I think this battle is long over and done with, but the Ethernet jack is not that big. A Thinkpad T470s/T480s has it and it is plenty thin. There are even some laptops with a collapsible RJ-45 port which allows it to be even thinner.
A USB port is also not that thick yet it has been dropped on many recent laptops, although a Thinkpad X1 Carbon shows it is possible to have USB, HDMI etc on a 2lb / 1kg machine.
A serious question: what is the advantage of thinness for you, personally? I have several laptops and I'm on the move all the time. The only disadvantage of thicker ones for me is weight - but it's negligible, even when I'm cycling and my laptop is in my backpack (or, sometimes, laptop bag). Weight aside, the thinness itself has zero advantage for me. I'd much rather have all the functionality removed at the cost of it (not just Ethernet - I care much more about user-replaceable SSDs and RAM).
It's aesthetics/psychological. Weight is also important to me because I travel and the thinness affects my perception of the weight. It's a bit strange that the new Pro feels thicker than my old laptop, the 2015 Macbook Pro, despite actually being thinner. It's because it doesn't have the taper that the old laptop has. Take a look:
The parent doesn't mention the T480, but the X1 Carbon which comes with a full range of USB and HDMI ports. The Macbook Pro is 1.55cm thick, the X1 Carbon is 1.49 cm thick.
Lenovo also sells the T480s, those are not substantially thicker (1.6 cm high) and beefier and come with a built-in ethernet (!) port.
I mentioned the T480s. The T480 is much more user-serviceable than a Macbook Pro, with upgradeable RAM, SSD, Battery etc, and much cheaper, so not a valid comparison.
yes iff you would need to contact a support hotline everytime you switvh the audio source or the headphones itself.
if you are mocking the notion that it was courage to get rid of the headphone. Then you are correct But then again I got a phone with headphone jack but still prefer Bluetooth. Especially now when wearing masks,... no cables that get in the way of.taking off and putting on a mask.
If a sim is digital, couldn't Apple put the eSim into your 'wallet' for example?
I appreciate that it's not currently designed like that, but given we are just talking bits, just because it's not a fully baked system yet, it can't be?
You get it. And this IS how it works now. You can have 10+ eSIM profiles on your iPhone with one of them active at a time. Just active the eSIM based on the country you are in. No more tracking plastic bits.
Fantastic. Now I will have no easy way to transfer my number from one phone to another.
Currently I carry on my trips a spare phone that I can use to transfer my SIM card to and keep being able to receive various SMS messages needed for me to function at all.
Many commenters have rightly pointed out limited availability of eSIM offers comparing to physical cards. However, it should be noted that Apple has immense weight in carrier world. They may 'ask' carriers to provide SIM /eSIM parity for the next iPhone model. If they do, the rest will follow. Technically, there are no barriers to migrate SIM tariffs to eSIM.
One of the nice things about the internet is that IP addresses can't be (legally) tied to the person using it.
Smartphones are personal devices, and without SIM cards a network connection can be tied to the person using it. This is a fundamental change and we should think hard if we want that to happen.
I'm sure it's not all the evidence they had. You can definitely use an IP to aid an investigation but there's too much plausible deniability for "beyond a reasonable doubt" if all you have is a computer or an IP associated with a crime.
According to eSIM.net, eSIMs cannot be moved between phones. This is a pretty big step back IMO.
If you want to keep the same phone number, the only way is to buy another eSIM for the new phone, and then use the PUK to transfer the old number to it.
You'll need the carrier's help to switch devices, for now. This will be solved if the eSIM technology issue is forced, but for now it's the major pain with eSIMs.
Frankly, I am happy to hear about this upcoming change. It is true that it’s easy to pop in/out a physical SIM. But I am hoping/projecting that eSIM will become equally easy to plop in the future soon after this change. In return, purely from an engineering perspective I am glad to have one less part. Sort of like the gigapress eliminating a bunch of parts in the car manufacturing
Is there a way to send a strong signal that we don't want this? Companies seem to think that they can make infinite money by denying customers what they want. But in this case, the only thing propping up the iPhone is the dominant market position of Apple and whatever intellectual property protections and lobbying allow Apple to keep bundling their hardware and software. Maybe it's time to remind them of their legal vulnerabilities if they insist on pursuing these anticompetitive tactics.
My fear isn't actually Apple, it's the loss of Apple. I've watched as they've lost just about every last noble aspect that inspired me growing up. Somehow they went from an art and education platform to just another corporate behemoth. I find myself questioning more and more whether they are even innovating anymore, or if they're just using their dominant position to vacuum up all of the capital. Same with all of the other tech companies.
I guess what I'm saying is that I feel that Apple is already gone whenever I read that they're even considering things like this. If they do it, then I would feel a tremendous sense of shame as an engineer if I worked at Apple. That's really what it comes down to. Can we continue to silently endorse abusive behaviors by working for these companies, or is it time to withdraw our support and form new companies that do actual research and innovate again?
Big can of worms there, but, I find myself considering the idea more and more in these times.
> But in this case, the only thing propping up the iPhone is the dominant market position of Apple and whatever intellectual property protections and lobbying allow Apple to keep bundling their hardware and software.
I think it might have something to do with selling a product that customers prefer over the alternatives.
So you're really saying that if you wanted to sell a phone that could have iOS installed on it for customers to run, there's nothing stopping you from doing that?
I am not saying that. I am saying iPhones are “propped up” by people walking into a store (or browsing online), looking at the selection, and choosing an iPhone.
> But in this case, the only thing propping up the iPhone is the dominant market position of Apple
Surely, Apple selling lots of phones has nothing to do with people buying a product that appeals to them, and only to do their evil lobbying and manipulation.
Too bad this evil company Apple has replaced the Apple of your youth, that was cool, and not a for-profit company.
Homie, they’re removing the SIM card because they have the data no one uses it. You’re reaching into IDK-WHAT just to put words on the page. It’ll be OKAY.
Vendor lock-in gradually erodes our freedom. I want to be able to use my own flash storage for expansion, I want to be able to replace my own battery without tools, I want a headphone jack. Times countless other questionable design decisions across their product lines, and those of companies which copied them, that make me sad for what could have been.
Several of my android phones have come with a slot that can take either a microSD or a second SIM, so they wouldn't have to remove it if that's what they were going for.
Well there are many countries that have yet to roll out e-SIM, China being one with no definite timetable. Which means there will still be iPhone with Sim Slot in the foreseeable future.
I assume they want to go "portless", which means they will have to wait for Full e-SIM support first? ( They could well be a wrong assumption )
I am skeptical about this. There are hundreds of mobile operators worldwide and many of them do not support eSIM. Admittedly Apple are no stranger to pulling stunts that upset users but removing something core to the very critical feature of the device (that is, a phone working as a phone) is surely unlikely?
Waterproofing is a spectrum (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207043), and seals fail over time. The fewer holes from the outside of the device to the inside, the fewer points of failure for the waterproofing. It was an openly stated reason for the move, and the first Apple phones to ditch the jack were the first to hit IP67 as a result.
Sure, and those standards are immersion "up to 30 minutes" sort of scenarios. Do it day in and day out and the seals will fail over time.
Fewer seals, fewer seal failures. (Salt water can be fun on the metal contacts, too.) I expect Apple to go induction-only charging at some point, for similar reasons.
Thanks to Apple, this industry won't make any progress otherwise. You can watch all 3 service providers finally waking up and provide eSIM. You can even watch all the Android manufacturer follow the suit. I am tired of using u-pins to change sim cards. Buying physical circuit to put in the phone just to communicate some numbers is barbaric.
Is anyone else aware of just how minority the complaints are here? Apple has the data for people that replace sims, it’s going to be far less minority than 3.5mm, and that’s never coming back either.
Do whatever makes you happy, but a lot of this seems like yelling at clouds to me.
There’s a decent enough chance this will happen. The iPhone 13’s are actually thicker than the 12 and have a bigger better. Battery life is pretty bonkers good on the 13s (not that the 12’s were bad or anything).
SIM cards are the key to the surveillance state so of course they would make it part of the phone. Good luck trying to buy unregistered SIM cards to use that are not in some way tied to an ID or bank account transaction.
This was discussed in the specs of the latest version (v3), and actually Apple and other GSMA members stood in the way of this. AT&T and Verizon wanted to include lock as part of the specs but it didn't pass and they were accused of collusion: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/20/apple-verizon-att-switc...
So in summary, it's the opposite of a carrier lock.
J2ME was so bad that it once made me throw my Sony Ericsson soap bar shaped cell phone down on the floor so hard in furious anger and frustration that I smashed it, and it felt so wonderful, and was well worth it.
I threw my phone to the wall with full force when I was a kid due an argument over the phone. The screen got wrecked as a result. Had to tell my parents I dropped it accidentally because I can't explain what happened.
In one of my pubescent year, the same incident happened again; But this time, threw it to the ground and glass screen protector ate all the damage except the home button. Remember cutting my finger pressing it.
The final one is back in 2018. Threw my phone and it ended up breaking the wall instead.
Back in the day it was called iPod idk if Apple still makes them. I always wondered why phone numbers still exist when majority of people use IM apps over the internet. Obstacles can be not all people(friends and family) having the internet or not all people having the internet access atm so you need phone number to reach someone.
That'd be great for some specific countries or markets. One gateway to a network being removed isn't bad news. More traffic and bandwidth is used by Wi-Fi nowadays.
Just in case that future phone will be connected to a headset or IOT devices, it makes sense to give less priority to GSM functionality.
I use an eSIM through Google Fi and it’s a mess. There is a precise ceremony that has to be followed, isn’t well documented, and every time I have had to restart the process fresh multiple times.
> With iPhone 13 Pro Max, iPhone 13 Pro, iPhone 13, and iPhone 13 mini, you can use Dual SIM with either two active eSIMs or a nano-SIM and an eSIM. iPhone 12 models, iPhone 11 models, iPhone XS, iPhone XS Max, and iPhone XR, feature Dual SIM with a nano-SIM and an eSIM.
They are correct, and you are not. The 12 is as you say. With 13, you can have either 1 nano and 1 esim or two esim simultaneously. You can also have other esim plans stored and not in use.
Not everywhere, as others in this thread have mentioned. As a frequent traveler I'll be probably holding onto the last physical sim iPhone for many years until everywhere I travel to has it all ironed out.
As a frequent traveler I can’t imagine going back to physical SIMs, now I can carry all my data plans on my phone and don’t have to waste time looking for a place to buy a prepaid plan.
There are a ton of websites where you can immediately get esims for almost every country, why bother with physical sims?
In some places the e-sim plans are inflated and poorer value compared to the deals on physical sim cards sold. For example the unlimited data plans might be only available by sim rather than purchasing data packs
As a traveler you can have 10 or more eSIM profiles. That means you can have a great 130 multi-country eSIM like the AIS eSIM2Fly or if you go to a single country you could get their local travel eSIM ( for example the Thailand DTAC Tourist eSIM ). Just switch between your active eSIM as needed. iPhones have more than enough eSIM slots to accommodate your travels, with no more need for plastic chip fiddling.
so, anything one can do if one wants to work with this technology on their own. I suppose an Asterisk extension or something, I tried searching for eSim on github but seems it's a pretty generic acronym for people to pick.
Because despite both being privacy invasive and full of ads, the smart phones fill a need of having a mobile digital connection, whereas the smart TVs do not actually fill a need for the people who dislike them? Replacing my smart phone with a dumb phone would limit my use of it severely. Replacing my smart TV with a dumb TV would be welcome, if I could find one.
While The name is Smartphones, but it actually acts like a computer. It is a multi function, multi paradigm devices. There is nothing "phone" about it other than the name.
Smart TV is an appliance with software applied on top. No one wants all that smartness interactivity. You are fundamentally still just viewing content on it. But those smart features often did nothing "smart" other than complicated the hell out of the process.
Because when you buy a display you want it to display what you want without sharing that info with the world. Would you be happy with a smart monitor that took screen shots of what you were working on sending them back to who knows where for a cheaper price?
Question: will the new AWS offerings eventually allow us to escape from mobile providers altogether? (I haven’t looked into it and even if I do I won’t understand the details well enough)
Progress for the sake of progress... SIM cards have plenty of advantages, all of which relate to control of your hardware. With a physical SIM card you retain control of the number and can swap it easily. As other comments have shown, with an eSIM, you rely on the provider to provision it for you.
I hated having to call the provider when I was with Sprint and Verizon Wireless in the US, when I wanted to change the phone I was using. And that was mostly free and they had 24-hour hotlines. If you have to pay and can only call during business hours, it is a huge regression.
Unfortunately they are the only eSIM supporting carrier in the country. Maybe this will help, but looking at the other comments here mine is not the only carrier that does so.
Why do you think it is horrific? Haven’t had the chance to look into it so all I know about it is that it uses Java ME which is a very limited subset of Java SE.
I would much rather a defined protocol rather than arbitrary code. It also means you can require multiple distinct applets on your phone for each card provider.
There was one really good talk about from black hat or defcon [1] but there's also this [2] which seems more thorough so I'm gonna watch it too later. I happen to have a friend who writes software for simcards so that's what really was my main source.
many advantages, If your phone dies, you just move sim card and the new phone works has your old phone number.
You buy a new phone, say you have an android and buy an iphone or reverse... you can easily move the sim card as you want. I'm not even sure how you would do that with eSIM.
> iPhone 13 models already support multiple eSIM profiles, allowing users to subscribe to several cellular plans digitally and switch between them, […]
Couple of years ago I went to Africa, bought two local SIM cards from children on the road while sitting in a car, they had to take a picture of my passport with their mobile phone and activate the cards, but it worked. Having esim being sold like that would probably not be possible.
Android here. Not much of a sim hacker here - but I once suffered an over the air sim hack. Phone ceased to work, gmail accessed, PW changed and phone was changed to another number. Freedom advised there was no human engineering involved - they reverted the phone reverted to my control and I selected a 7 digit PIN and my file was locked so it needs me in person as well as that new PIN. gmail was recovered and a USB dongle was added at home to secure that. No problems since. Police and Federal(RCMP) police investigated. I could not figure why me? - apparently it was a hack aimed at the Australian ambassador to Canada, whose gmail ID was the same as mine with a 1 digit numeric suffix on his. Was this - Chinese?? They got nothing from me or him as he had a secure embassy hardware secured and encrypted message system he used for all embassy business. Gmail was just for online shopping, friends etc. He has since retired and I often get, in error, emails intended for him, which I dutifully forward and erase and we occasionally chat.
Presumably Apple executives, by virtue of working for a global company, are more likely than average to use dual-SIM or swap between SIMs when travelling. Don't they see that for a large segment of their existing market not having this feature might make it a deal-breaker when upgrading?
> Presumably Apple executives, by virtue of working for a global company, are more likely than average to use dual-SIM or swap between SIMs when travelling.
I’d imagine it’s the opposite. Presumably the company pays for their roaming charges so swapping SIMs is a foreign concept for them.
It's most profitable to get people on a weekly/monthly plan and every industry is trying to do this. In the future you will rent everything (phone included), and own nothing.
> Apple's former design chief Jony Ive once envisioned the iPhone as becoming a "single slab of glass," and the SIM card slot's removal would be another step towards a seamless design...
I really do hate purist visions like that.
> Taking out the slot would also free up some valuable internal space in the iPhone — every bit counts.
And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.