I'm in favour of nationalisation for UK rail simply because privatisation of UK rail has been a mess. This article highlights the lack of detail in the plans though, particularly concerns about fares which have not been addressed.

Can nationalisation work? Back in 2009, a privatised rail service (East Coast Line) was nationalised when the private operators failed their financial commitments. The state-run line was run for 5 years and returned £1bn in premiums, as well as several million in profits to government coffers. A successful example of nationalisation - but simply not acceptable for the Conservative government who promptly returned the line to private hands in 2015. [1]

The UK already has some of the most expensive rail tickets in Europe. Yes, you can book in advance for cheaper tickets, but often there is limited availability, and you have to book at least a month or longer in advance. In short, the conditions which make cheaper tickets available are simply impractical for most passengers, especially regular commuters.

I've posted this before: a monthly season ticket comparison from 2017 for UK and Continental Europe. The price differences between UK and other countries is eye-watering:

- UK: Luton to London St. Pancras (35 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £387 (approx $547/€448)

- UK: Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly (32 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £292 (approx $412 /€344)

- Germany: Dusseldorf to Cologne (28 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £85 (approx $120 /€98)

- France: Mantes-la-Jolie to Paris (34 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £61 (approx $86 /€71)

- Italy: Anzione to Rome (31 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £61 (approx $86 /€71)

- Spain: Aranjuez to Madrid (31 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £75 (approx $106 /€87)

Source: https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/uk-commuters-spend-6-times-much-...

[1] "East Coast rail line returns to private hands": https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/01/east-coast-r...

>I'm in favour of nationalisation for UK rail simply because privatisation of UK rail has been a mess.

It was a mess before it was privatised. For all the criticism there has been a lot of investment in UK railways and passenger numbers have skyrocketed since privatisation.

The pricing is fine, if it wasn't then the trains wouldn't be running at capacity (putting aside covid effects). Personally I would be pretty pissed if I had to subsidise my neighbours transport costs just so they can commute to a higher paying job in London.

You do subsidise it, whether the roads (which are massively subsidied) or the railway.

The privatised railway is a massively inneficient way of running a railway.

>You do subsidise it

Not much, as you can see by @cirrus-cloud's price comparisons.

>The privatised railway is a massively inneficient way of running a railway.

It wasn't a picture of efficiency when the state ran it.

> It wasn't a picture of efficiency when the state ran it.

Privatisation didn't deliver what it promised.

Customer satisfaction is the second highest in Europe.

The number of journeys has increased by 128%.

The average real-terms increase in fares has been lower than under British Rail.

We now have the safest railways in Europe [1].

The amount of investment has gone up nine-fold. [2]

What hasn't happened is stopping politicians meddling with it, this was a problem before and continues to be.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jul/25/how-sa...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of...

The question is, do you see rail as a cost or profit center? Do you use it as a tool for achieving other goals?

In the matter of public transport, the idea that it needs to pay for itself or be profitable is very much a matter of where you draw the line of which costs you in- and externalise.

People need to go places, space and climate impact are limited, public transport the only sane option. It therefore should be priced such. It /is/ is cheaper than all other options, evidently.

I just checked where I live, and a monthly pass covering Wasserburg-Munich costs €63.10 for a slightly longer distance. £387 sounds weirdly expensive.

Do the UK bus companies provide an effective alternative to rail? I can't imagine paying these prices on a regular basis.

It depends on a lot of different factors.

Locally and even regionally buses go routes trains aren't going but they get caught in traffic and are a lot slower than trains even if it's a clear run. Buses also tend to be less pleasant but cheaper. You can always force more people into a crowded train but buses get to full capacity and have to drive past people waiting for them.

Northern Ireland has a pretty effective coach system that mirrors what would be expected of a train system, but you don't usually get that sort of thing elsewhere. But then Northern Ireland (and the north of Ireland) has some insane gaps without train coverage. https://maps-ireland-ie.com/ireland-train-map

In England getting a coach is basically often what you do because you can't afford a train so they often run maybe once a day, or maybe a few times a day on some of the bigger routes. They often opperate at really odd hours and for travel to neighbouring countries coaches are better than train because they coordinate the ferry for you.

There are much cheaper bus/coach options for city-to-city travel. But they are not always suitable for commuting daily to work. Expect longer travelling time than rail and be prepared for slow traffic and road works at times.