Additionally, Samsung have a habit of releasing forced updates that almost-but-not-entirely brick their TVs, slowing them down to molasses. They do this right before the next model becomes available for purchase.
Last but not least, a colleague worked there as a consultant, and his stories of their lax IT security were nearly unbelievable. Even though they spy on you like Google or Facebook, they are not like a FAANG when it comes to protecting your private info! They've been hacked for sure, probably by multiple nation state actors. Whatever you watch or do with their TVs is being relayed to the US, Russians, Chinese, or whomever. Assume that nothing you do with a Samsung device or Samsung software is remotely secure or safe.
They're a slimy company made up of unscrupulous people trying to squeeze every last drop out of every rock.
Don't give them your money. There are many other companies with much better track records.
What is really annoying though is that you are their customer. It's sort of understandable when Google or Facebook spy on you and monetise your data to profit from the services that they provide you free of monetary charge to you. With Samsung, you've already handed over a few hundred dollars at least for the product. Spying on you as well is like having their customer and eating it.
I've always used Samsung's flagship smartphones, since the Galaxy S4. However, as I've become a more conscious consumer in recent years, I've decided that my next phone won't be a Samsung.
> It's sort of understandable when Google or Facebook spy on you and monetise your data to profit from the services that they provide you free of monetary charge to you.
I personally don't like that line of reasoning. If you start to justify abusive behavior in the name of making money you're not giving someone for a "service", it's a small leap to reach the conclusion that abusive behavior (and profiting from it) is justified no matter what as long as you've been provided some kind of service.
Either it's a gift, or it's a paid service. In neither cases does abusive behavior ever become justified, whether it's from a friend, a neighbor, or a multi-billion dollar company. If your company wants to offer me free donuts, that's your company's choice and does not grant you the right to follow me home and steal my books. Why would it be any different with Silicon Valley companies?
But it is absurd to insist the only two valid transaction models are offer paid service (which I assume means for money) or gift. Even in your hypothetical, it would not be unreasonable for them to give me a donut in exchange for taking notes on which donut I like and handing me a coupon for my next donut.
To me, the issue is not the data collection. It is the lack of transparency.
> To me, the issue is not the data collection. It is the lack of transparency.
I don't exactly disagree, but it's hardly comparable. As a human being, i can grasp the notion of giving you 30 minutes of my time to try different cookie flavors and tell you what i think.
I could likewise understand the notion/consequences of filling a one-page questionnaire for Facebook's advertisement engine in exchange for free service. But i don't think implicit background data collection on anything they can (my phonebook, really?!) is a reasonable contract, because it's hard to comprehend what are the limits and consequences of that.
So it's not just "lack of transparency". I would consider it abusive behavior even if the sign up form read "I WILL FOLLOW AND WATCH YOU EVERYWHERE YOU GO AND TELL ALL MY FRIENDS ABOUT YOUR GREAT ADVENTURES"... especially considering they would probably make it look like a cute pet saying that. I would not consider it abusive behavior if their ad business was *not* collecting any information from the users (except maybe like i said a sign-up questionnaire) and was just doing advertisement.
I think that free services are a mistake. But for whatever reason people _really_ like it. Take Youtube. It offers a way to avoid all ads and yet people who spent hours upon hours every day either watching videos or listening to music with it refuses to spend a dime on it. And yet, they also complain that ads are ruining Youtube and so they installed adblocker specifically for it.
Since everyone refuses to _directly_ spend money, companies just move to taking money from us indirectly. To me "free services" is like a casinos, its easy to say that you should "just not do/use it lmao" but its extremely hard to think back and consider why Reddit/Hackernews/Youtube/Twitter/Facebook is free and what are the consequences/incentives of it being "free" will mean to our society. It is simply too enticing.
It's not like paying for YouTube prevents Google from hoovering up your data and using it for targeted advertising. Sure, you won't see the ads on YouTube, but you'll see them literally _everywhere_ else unless you use that adblocker.
I think tech people overestimate how much the common folk cares about privacy. I think they "superficially" cares about them but they will never, ever give up convenience for it. So that does not surprise me. But it is interesting why people refuse to spend money to avoid ads when it clearly annoyed them.
And paying for YouTube prevents Google from inserting ads -- but I find that the majority of content I see on YouTube has embedded ads from the creator as well. Ad-free isn't an option, unfortunately.
I'd love to pay to remove youtube ads. But... I refuse to surf the web logged into google. So I can't.
And beside that I'd very much not want to give google money either. So I don't.
(yes, watching the ads gives them money, and blocking the ads and use youtube reinforces their monopoly. But it still feels better than also giving them cash directly).
> Since everyone refuses to _directly_ spend money
Most of us don't. But we would like it to be:
- easy and anonymous: if i have cash i should be able to find a local reseller taking cash for a token of X€ (a token that's not specific to your platform would be even better)
- easy to decide where the money goes: i certainly don't want to give Google any money at all (and they don't need it), and i certainly don't want my money to be used against my will to finance a reptilian-aware neonazi whose video i clicked by accident (or because i had to debunk it)
But, to be fair, i would much rather prefer a system based on cooperation and free sharing. Is there a reason why we have to pay to live? The reason artists need money is the same reason bakers or FLOSS devs need money: because everyone else does and we're trapped in this nightmarish system. I feel that as a species we can do better.
And I hate it too, and for all the reasons given here. (Did not check them all, but it is a pretty safe bet.)
Hating it all means I am on board with activism, advocacy, law, whatever we need to do in order to establish / extend the Bill Of Rights into digital spaces.
Society, tech and the law have collided and that mess is ongoing and expanding. Imagine one of those cars smashing into a train with the dummy in it.
It crumples, folds, then pieces fly off, the dummy takes damage, and just down the track is a truck, and a bus with kids in it, and so on...
That train is heavy, well powered with spiffy tech, and it is powering right through the public!
Hate it, but I am quite sure I can't do much, even resisting, doing all the work to anonymize, is a total PITA. Drains the value right out of it all, out of me, my life, and I just do not have time for it, unless a lot of us have time together somehow.
And I think dollars are the only language our oppressors, abusers, and the like will both hear and act on because they must!
Lessig wrote about things that regulate our behavior:
Norms. They do not prevent anything, but do reward or punish.
Law. Like norms, but with real teeth well beyond praise and shunning.
Physics. The rules of the world will prevent actions. The more we understand, the more this world permits.
Money / markets. These also can prevent things. If we cannot afford an action...
It will take a lot of us setting norms, doing things that cost, and all of that rolling up into law more relevant than this current "wild west" is.
I really like it because I get to do things, have access to information that was the stuff of dreams not so long ago.
Yes, let's do this. Let's get together and create new, more humane standards. Get involved with an educational/cultural copyleft non-profit like Framasoft, a legal/lobbying organization like LQDN/EFF, a local hosting cooperative that provides GAFAM alternatives with a sustainable model (libreho.st/chatons.org networks), a local self-organized/DIY ISP (guifi.net/ffdn.org/freifunk.net networks), a self-organized FLOSS coop, etc.
That aside, yes! In my view, right now those of us able to do what just happened here need to continue. More will pick up on the, to us all too obvious dark patterns...
What to do in order to have this aspect of tech make better sense, augment, empower, add value, serve, rather than enslave, exploit, diminish, create dependence, is going to be the product of discussions we will not have, unless enough of us arrive at this all being an priority and understand the time is now, ish.
New law, and in that place where tech, law and society collide.
We are the ones, and we are because many remember times before all this, many may know nothing, this being all they have known.
It is the timing, mix of perspectives, newness of the tech and more which make this time special. We go too long and the inflection points may just evaporate...
A very similar thing happened with labor, resulting in the likes of the New Deal, by way of what I am trying (poorly, I feel) to get at here.
When we attempt solutions, those form a basis to build on and momentum to get it right, and have it work better for everyone. That matters.
The law is well behind, like we are leaving a "wild west" kind of time and that exit could have us see far worse before people move to address it. Or, it all could go better, sooner too.
I agree! Getting involved matters. Sharing it, particularly among "normies", who sense real trouble,,but do not understand well enough for that momentum to build matters too.
Great comment. Wish I had more and better answers. They will come as more of us seek them and amplify the good potential more than we currently amplify the growing bad.
> Even in your hypothetical, it would not be unreasonable for them to give me a donut in exchange for taking notes on which donut I like and handing me a coupon for my next donut.
I use both and am yet to find the "monetise your data" stuff abusive. It's mostly things like trying to show an ad for mortgages if they figure you need a mortgage. Honestly with the various forms of death and hunger and real bad stuff in the world I'd feel a bit of a snowflake freaking out over someone trying to show me an ad for something they figure I may need.
> Honestly with the various forms of death and hunger and real bad stuff in the world I'd feel a bit of a snowflake freaking out over someone trying to show me an ad
Fair point, but it's all related. The global wealth we have as a planet could provide everyone with decent housing, food and healthcare. Instead it's being owned by a minority who dedicated resources to making things worse for everyone else.
The IT industry in particular largely benefits from human rights abuses in mining operations and in the factories on the hardware side, and from big contracts with tyrannical regimes on the software side (Amazon + ICE? Google + China?).
The problem is we largely live in a globalized culture in which "exploit others before they exploit you" (the paradigm we're taught in schools/media) is the norm. We are enough technologically-advanced to have a world without war and hunger, but not as long as psychopaths are socially rewarded.
This is a difficult one because, like the other person that replied to you, I can't agree that cash payment is the only legitimate form of bargain that might be struck for services. I feel like it's an elitist take, because while I can thankfully afford to pay for these services with cash, a lot of people out there can't and that doesn't mean they should be shut out of basic internet services (like email, for example). And once you agree that non-cash payment is legitimate in principle, we're arguing over matters of degree and what is "reasonable".
Although I've become more privacy conscious in recent years, I'm not even sure I can agree that the bargain offered by the ad tech companies is objectively unreasonable. What I can conclude is that it is highly opaque, many people are sleepwalking into it without fully considering its ramifications, and I personally am not comfortable with it.
Samsung's practice of taking your money, offering you a product and then taking your data as well is a particularly dark pattern because it strays even more from the reasonable expectations of consumers.
> because while I can thankfully afford to pay for these services with cash, a lot of people out there can't
I don't know where you live, but here in France it's the other way around. You can pay with cash pretty much in any shop, but it's expensive on vendors to provide card payments. And the real problem is millions of people don't have a credit card due to being blacklisted (for debt) or undocumented immigrant. That's why for example Lycamobile/Lebara are the most popular phone service providers among the lower classes in France: you can find SIM cards and "tip-up" cards pretty much everywhere.
Of course, this raises the question on how to pay on the Internet with cash as i know a lot of people who can't buy stuff online. For people who want to pay online (and have a bank account), taler.net seems like the most promising R&D in the field of "digital cash". For the rest, i can't see why we couldn't have a tip-up card system like we have for phone providers, but as a generic means to pay for online services with cash.
I just saw the Samsung S22 and it looks kinda like an iPhone 13, very solid build, comparably compact, it would actually be a good device if it weren't for the fact that the moment you unlock it they trip an e-fuse to make sure you can't use certain things. Sony used to wipe the drm keys to brick the camera on their phones.
I had a samsung active2 watch. It advertised ECG, which didn't materialize until almost 2 years after the device was launched. When it finally got released you were only allowed to use that feature if the device was paired to a samsung phone.
For the longest time Samsung Pay was showing ads inside the app, like some random third party play store app.
Then, one day, I decided to go for a swim and the watch crashes, the speaker sucks water on boot and the device bricks. No button combination allows you to turn off the device without the touch screen. Even though it was an issue for the (IP68 rated) device samsung wanted to charge me $180 to repair it. Basically the price of a new watch 1.5 years ago.
Nowadays I look at Sony and Samsung devices and think, man such great looking devices, but wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
EDIT: some people say that in the EU they cannot lock you out of warranty for rooting the device, because non hardware modifications are not cause for warranty removal. But I haven't tried that, so I don't know.
> EDIT: some people say that in the EU they cannot lock you out of warranty for rooting the device, because non hardware modifications are not cause for warranty removal. But I haven't tried that, so I don't know.
Even if it’s not allowed in Europe, IIRC, unlocking and tripping the e-fuse comes with a new boot screen with a huge "unsecure device" that you can’t get rid of. And you are also definitely locked out of device encryption and Samsung Pay.
So even if warranty is not void, you are paying it by not being able to resell your phone (at least at a normal price).
Motorola has some newer models that seem pretty comparable and the battery actually lasts a day or two. I've been sticking with Motorola for my Android and I've been pretty happy.
I hear what you're saying but maybe we shouldn't be fostering an economy where giant hands scrape every last cent off the table, potentially damage the table and the prospects of others who'd just like to sit there a moment.
It is the sad state we've come to in modern-day business. From business savvy to business savagery. Cardinal sin if you don't bash someone's head in, if it makes you a dollar richer.
Good question. Anyone have an answer? I’ve just assumed (hoped?) they don’t rent/sell their customer info, but have absolutely no facts to back that up.
You have to consider the incentives. Apple gains a lot by talking about and pushing privacy because their competition can't do anything about that. If Google or FB were to start taking privacy seriously then it would undermine their whole business model. That isn't the case for Apple.
I stopped buying Samsung after two phones. About 18 months or so after I got them, some update would make things so slow I needed a new phone. Second time I figured it wasn't the phone being old, it was the update slowing it on purpose.
Other phones I've had don't seem to have this problem, updates seem to not change the speed of the UI at all. But I also don't appreciate the customised Android, there doesn't ever seem to be a benefit.
I haven't experienced updates making the phone unusably slow, but I do find that they don't hold up as well as you might expect a high-end phone to. The main problem is that the battery goes to shit; not sure if that's a hardware or a software problem. I also find I tend to have trouble with the charging port after a while.
I have had good luck with batteries by following the charge at 15 percent guideline Samsung moved to.
My Note 8 is going on a lot of cycles. Have had it for too long probably. Battery still holds up solid.
Older device, Note 5 had a 5 percent warning. Battery went to crap quickly.
Avoiding the fast charge helps too. I use it when I need to and just go normal otherwise when I am not time constrained.
No charging port trouble. Wireless charging just works.
Recently, I got a battery back. Doing it now before I really need it. So far, a year in and a lot more plug in charging and I cannot recommend one more highly.
I find I can often run the phone off the back and pretty much never have to allow a deeper discharge.
Battery time leveled off and is in a very, very slow decline.
> They're a slimy company made up of unscrupulous people trying to squeeze every last drop out of every rock.
Unfortunately, i find it hard in this day and age to find a hardware manufacturer that's not abusive. Do you know of a hardware manufacturer that has a reasonable warranty policy, makes it easy to repair the hardware (no screws or standard screws, definitely no glue), publishes datasheets (specs) and does not lock the bootloader?
I think when it comes to mobile phones, Fairphone Librem and Pinephone are the only three that get close, but none of them checks all the boxes. I'm all ears for suggestions, whether it's for phones, networking equipment, or whatever.
I like Lenovo, even more since they started native and firmware support for Ubuntu on some of the laptops. When it comes to phones, I think a Pixel running a non-Google Android version seems to be decent. At least my old Pixel 2 is. Not really looking forward to replacing it... But the screen is shot (again... the main reason why I never come to sell a used phone...).
- I've owned and/or used Thinkpad laptops for over 20 years. Occasional others, including MacBook Air and Dell. Old-school ThinkPad is damned hard to beat.
- In the phone space there's virtually nothing that appeals, with much of that being the technology, carriers, and practice. If I have to carry one ... I probably won't anyway.
- Android is a disaster on numerous fronts. The fact that it's also the best contender running (PinePhone / Librem, please up your game* is ... well, it just is. Based on over a decade of use and multiple devices.
You are placing a much higher bar than GP. Yes, by your standard almost all companies fail. But I think GP’s point is fair that Samsung goes well beyond Apple’s screws and glue by also collecting collecting a ton of data that you wouldn’t expect.
I'm placing a much higher bar yes, but don't you believe it's a very low bar that should be a legal requirement? It's not like i'm asking for the phone to have 10y warranty and available spare parts for 20 years... although wait i'm actually asking for that it sounds plenty reasonable to tackle the electronics waste problem which is uncomfortably related to climate change.
So yes relative to the current market, my expectations are high. But in absolute, and if you forget about all the crapware we've been fed in the past two decades, does that sound actually unreasonable?
>I'm placing a much higher bar yes, but don't you believe it's a very low bar that should be a legal requirement?
I don't. I want my phone to be reliable and receive updates for a long time. I have no intention of taking it apart and I think that is the case for most people.
If more glue makes the phone more resistant to water damage or breakage when I drop it then that is better for me.
> I want my phone to be reliable and receive updates for a long time.
The only way to ensure that if to publish the complete datasheets so that operating systems can maintain drivers. You cannot rely on a hardware manufacturer to provide updates, as it could go out of business any day.
> If more glue makes the phone more resistant to water damage or breakage when I drop it then that is better for me.
There's plenty of hardware design techniques (disclaimer: not my field) you can use for structural integrity and you don't need glue. Even if you don't have intention to take it apart, if it's glued it probably means that it will be really hard to replace the battery when it dies after 2-5 years.
If you want durable hardware, you need hardware that you (or a skilled shopperson) can take apart and where you can replace individual parts. That's why cars can 100% be taken down and why electronics in cars (over 100 microprocessors in an average car?!) are a worrying development for maintainability/durability.
I'd love some examples of this. I'm about to buy a new phone and originally planned to get a s21/22. But now I'm questioning this. But I'd also like some more details on this
See parent’s links, Samsung is very proud of their automatic content recognition (ACR) and ad retargeting technologies. I also remember the tv scanning your network and hdmi devices to figure out what you own and add to your advertising profile.
Well if you're ready to spend a month's salary on a phone, you'll probably get better hardware/software from Fairphone or Librem. Pinephone is also an option (at a more accessible price point) but it's still in some kind of beta where random users who just want to take photos and have a long-lasting battery are not the target audience.
I know many people who use Fairphones and they've never been disappointed. You can still find the spare parts, remove the battery, and setup the OS you want. Be careful though the "setup your own OS" part may not be supported for a few months after a new model comes out so be sure to check the compatibility list on lineageos.org.
Unfortunately to my knowledge all other vendors are just scammers who will sell you half-functioning phone due to spyware bundled as part of the system (just try to remove Google Play Services :)) where you can't unlock the bootloader to setup your own system.
Strictly speaking about repairability, yes. But in terms of performance, specs, camera, etc. Samsung / iPhone of 5 years ago is still ahead of the Fairphone and co
That's correct but misleading. First because we don't need all this raw power, and as much power as we give our devices, all of it will be (ab)used according to Wirth's law [0].
Second, because this is primarily due to economies of scale and predatory behavior from economic giants: if consumer/environmental protections don't outlaw ethical abuses from the few corporations who capture the market (see also planned obsolescence [1]), the "ethical" alternatives are always going to be more expensive and less attractive.
Third, because there are simple ways to have a strong impact immediately. For example, by forcing all hardware manufacturers to publish the entirety of their data sheets / schematics / research, you'd find a much better OS support for older devices (and new devices too), which would bring a practical incentive (cost) to use older hardware which currently has to be thrown away (for example if the OS does not support newer TLS standards [2]).
The situation is only bad because we let it be. Going with big tech for short-sighted, individualized gains, fails to address the elephant in the room that we as humanity can do so much better and everyone would be better off.
I had to upgrade recently and went for a Nokia XR20. It might not have the latest and greatest hardware but I honestly don't notice. It's a phone that I sometimes browse the internet on. Also dual SIM and has a 3.5mm jack.
Honestly Pixel should be the only android you consider as its the only phone that doesn't come loaded with trash spyware (outside of niche phones like Fairphone)
I love Pixels, closets thing to be spyware free. If you ignore being spied upon by Google, that is. Also very easy to get other Android versions on them, and those other OSes offer great, long term compatibility.
Any Android phone will be spied on by Google so long as Play Services are installed with elevated privileges(aka 99.9% of phones being commerically sold). At least with Pixels you don't have OEM bloatware on top of that.
For those inclined for more privacy, Pixels are one of the only phones that allow you to install de-googled Custom Roms without compromising the Android security model.
My girlfriend in 2016 had a brand new Samsung that sometimes made a lot of noise, as if the shock-breakers were busted (it was standing on the floor correctly). She called the Samsung service, in the Netherlands they advertise with a really nice service where the mechanic will come to your house for service. They asked her a hundred questions, and after 15 minutes she was done with it and put the phone down. That situation made me angry and I called and answered diligently all the questions for about half an hour to make sure that a mechanic would show up. Apparently they play a game on the phone by putting up such a barrier for service, just to save some money. I told her to never buy a Samsung again and also tell her friends that.
In my experience, a Samsung badge is like a seal of guaranteed low quality. Bling bling and looks good but no substance. Like I said, I steer clear of Samsung for anything. Even semiconductors if I can help it, although I have no idea if their semis are as bad as their full products. But just in case. Companies usually share this kind of traits across divisions and groups, it’s in their dna.
I had a Samsung oven that self-destructed beyond repair on the first attempt of the pyrolytic cleaning program, less than a year after purchase. I know multiple people that got less than year of service from their other sort of Samsung appliances. So yes, it does apply.
The electronics industry has been anti-customer for a long time now.
I stopped buying Sony back in the late 90s when all the DVD copy protection started. Then they added Cinavia, and so on. I don't agree with piracy, but I certainly don't agree with being told how I can use something I've purchased.
And just yesterday there's the story about Dymo crippling their label printers if it does detect... RFID in their own paper.
Anti consumer in some ways but I'm kind of struck on a daily basis with how nice and thoughtfully designed my Apple stuff is. (M1 Air and old SE). I mean if they were really anti consumer then why do they dominate consumer spending? I'm not aware of anyone forcing me to buy this stuff.
Take the SE; Small phones like that that have decent hardware are very few, almost non-existent. (Especially the original SE; Even iPhone Mini is not that compact.)
The industry is heavily monopolized, and the regulations are outdated.
worked for a company doing apps for smartTVs. They all do it. Incessently. I made ad games that would pop up when the system recognized a certain ad was playing. you were supposed to be able to opt out of this but LG got busted in the UK for not listening to that option. This was back in 2013 era. It's worse by now I'm sure. They'd straight up send a screencap of whatever was on your screen every second for content recognition. Terrible shit.
Yep. I have a smart tv. (What other kind exists today?). The remote has a netflix button - which is super useful. But according to my router, the TV sends a trickle of data over WIFI constantly. Even when its "off".
So I've banned the TV from my WIFI network, and I just have a PC plugged into it. Its less convenient this way - we need to pull out a wireless keyboard & mouse to watch netflix. But I think its the right call for sure.
In some ways I think I win on all counts like this. Modern smart tvs are subsidized by creepy advertising. This way I get a cheap TV, and I don't give up any privacy in doing so.
But I worry about a time when TVs ship with cheap 4G modems, and start doing telemetry that way. It might just be a matter of time. I can't be the only one who doesn't connect my tv to wifi; and I bet samsung has run the numbers.
I run the same setup for the same reasons. I also think having the TV disable itself until given network access (but waiting until after you've thrown the box away) or having prepaid 5G will come soon. It's disgusting but here we are.
I've actually come to appreciate the wireless keyboard though, it is awkward and bulky (even though it's a lightweight slim model) but the kids constantly lose the actual remote whereas the keyboard's size make losing it very difficult.
I think the AirTag thing has kind of changed my subconscious mental model about losing things: reading the bit about losing the remote, I immediately thought to myself "why not have a beeper in the remote that you can ping via a button on the TV or a phone app?"
No comment about the 5G thing though. If that's where consumer is heading you'll find me shopping in the advertising/DOH display panel section and trying my hardest to ignore the irony :D
> need to pull out a wireless keyboard & mouse to watch netflix
I run Kodi on a Raspberry Pi for this exact reason. The Pi's HDMI has CEC support built-in, which means the TV's remote works seamlessly with Kodi's UI. This works great for my Netflix needs.
Unfortunately, most (all?) PC graphics don't do CEC out of the box. I've seen USB adapters that can add this functionality to PCs but I've never tried any of them.
The Pi mk4 can do up to 4k (HDR) with the most recent Kodi updates. Really nice. Mine unfortunately requires a smol fan because otherwise it would randomly reboot, luckily Noctua makes 40mm silent fans. Connected on the GPIO pins for 5V, it's more than enough.
I think there is a plugin for it. Pretty sure its probably just a wrapper around netflix over some browser. Netflix killed their 3rd party API awhile ago and killed support for all the platforms techies would use.
> Its less convenient this way - we need to pull out a wireless keyboard & mouse to watch netflix. But I think its the right call for sure.
There are some wireless keyboards that looks like a remote, but with qwerty keys on the back, a touchpad / air mouse, and IR blaster with programmable key so you can ditch the original tv remote.
There is also an IR module you can hook into homeassistant to act as universal remote, so you can ditch all remotes and use your phone to control everything via homeassistant.
I have a smart tv. (What other kind exists today?)
Monitors. I have a 40" monitor in my living room, connected to the cable company's STB. Not that that's regularly used, most of the time I use my HTPC instead, which runs Kodi.
I have my Samsung TV wired to my network only for remote control with Home Assistant (can turn it off if nothing is playing for example). But I force all of its DNS to use a pihole, blocking all Samsung domains. I think I also have firewall rules to also block all internet access on it except NTP, but I don't remember if I still have that enabled or not (there may have been an issue with it disabling something that I needed for Home Assistant to talk to it).
This is a part of the reason why I refuse to buy any of these televisions. I don't need to risk screenshots of my personal information being sent back to some manufacturer.
I would love to upgrade from the 10 year old dumb Sanyo to something with a better picture. But, a friend who's in AV install and TV resale did some digging and there aren't options out there to buy.
I'm hoping some larger monitors will come out and fill in this gap for somebody spec hungry like myself, but doubtful.
I have galaxy s7. I don't get why I cannot remove apps like "Samsung Health", "Samsung Internet", "Samsung Members", etc. I constantly pushed with updates on these, and all I can do is flaging the updates as inappropriate.
These applications are viruses. They eat all your resources, make connections to the network, and you can't get rid of them. I don't understand how some (most?) of humanity has accepted that it's acceptable for Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and Huawei to make it mandatory to use their spyware. If i as an individual sold phones that are tied to crappy malware i would be in prison very quickly.
They control your phone, you don't. On some older Galaxy phones, you could at least unlock the bootloader and install LineageOS (which is much faster due to not running all this malware) but apparently it's not supported on S7. Samsung is slowly becoming the new Apple where you can't remove your battery without a screwdriver and there's a "Knox" security where if you lose your password (or somebody donates a phone without donating the password) the hardware will go straight to the (non-)recycling bin.
Is buying a PinePhone the only option to get decent hardware without lock-in for under 300€?
Can you give examples of the Apple spyware you're mentioning? I'm familiar with the on-device scanning for iCloud-backups-using phones, but for me that's it. How wrong am I?
I don't have examples on iOS because i've never used an iPhone, but on MacOS Apple was caught red-handed asking their central server authorization to run 3rd party programs whenever you start an application. It was only discovered because their server failed and programs failed to start:
I think we can agree this perfectly fits the definition of "spyware"? There's probably countless other examples i'm unaware of, and to be fair Apple is certainly not the only actor engaging in such outrageous behavior (Microsoft is another, perhaps more famous one).
I can’t say for certain it literally spies on you, but the majority of pre installed apps on iPhone are still not removable (this has been gradually improving each year since like 2016).
You can go to your settings, to the list of apps, and tap Disable.
That will also stop the updates, and it gives you an option to uninstall all updates when you disable it.
Also, since those apps are usually on the system partition, if you did have a way of removing them that space still isn't as useful as the rest of the space on your phone (not read/write except when updating/installing).
An acquaintance who worked as a security consultant for Samsung can corroborate. They said Samsung's security practices were terrible to say the least.
According to what objective measures? A 12 year old literally "hacked" the iPhone to remotely and silently activate any microphone using only a phone number. Apple products are not secure.
“Why should I break up with my abusive boyfriend? Sure, I’ve been in the hospital a few times with broken bones, but I saw your boyfriend shout at you once. Men are all the same.”
I'm pretty sure just about every TV brand is doing this now. Roku and FireTV are well known - there's literal research papers out there about the tracking they do - and a ton of TVs come bundled with Roku or FireTV these days. AFAIK LG is also doing that but I don't have a quotable source on it.
In the US, the Video Privacy Protection Act has a pretty interesting history. If you aren't familiar with it, the Wikipedia page has a pretty good summary:
From my (non-exhaustive) looking with wireshark, toggling that menu item doesn't impact the number of domains contacted or amount of data transferred.
Which is a shame, I love the roku for how easy it is to use. I'll continue to use it, since there isn't a easy to operate OSS alternative, but it is disappointing.
I avoid all things Samsung for a different reason: I don't want to support the subversion of the South-Korean state. It's become clear over the years [0] that the relationship between SK's administration is deeply unhealthy and anti-democratic. Until the economic power of the corporation is lessened it doesn't seem like the country is able to take effective measures either.
Doesn't your linked article counter that argument? Both the head of Samsung and a former president of SK received prison time for bribery. That seems big. I'm not knowledgeable about the full scope of the corruption, but based on that article it sounds like "effective measures" are entirely possible.
He served 200 days in jail, and seems to have lost minimal social standing. This was also highly exceptional to see any consequences at all. You’re right that the public outrage at the time was not entirely ineffective but the punishment was extraordinarily small.
The only thing Samsung I’ll buy is their storage because really you don’t have much choice. If you buy from another company there’s a chance it’s using Samsung memory anyways.
I’ve tried giving them second chances after they turned me off after the first set of tv spying the did. They opening lied about it saying they don’t inject ads or tracking or monitor what you watch. This was back when they put ads into content people watched on Plex.
I don't like their phones, their TV screens are too blue-tinted for my eyes, and their appliances are packed full of fancy features that few appliance repair centers are competent at diagnosing and repairing, and every samsung appliance I have ever had has had a major fault within 3-5 years that ultimately led to the appliance being replaced.
I may be old school but I don't think its wrong of me to expect at least a decade out of an appliance, especially when you go mid-tier or higher. Samsung is priced at mid-tier or higher, where is the commensurate reliability?
They do make good SSDs though, I'll give them that.
I think, nowadays and given the trend, it is safe to assume that all closed and networked devices already do that: phones and tablets, closed software and hardware subsystems in computers, SmartTVs, personal assistants, cars, household appliances, etc.
My current TV is and prior two TVs were Samsungs. This one will probably be my last because this is the first one I've tried to use as an actual television and it sucks at that.
The prior ones, and this one up until about 18 months ago, were only used as displays for my cable TV box, DVD player, Blu-ray player, game consoles, and streaming boxes. I then cancelled cable and hooked up an antenna to watch actual TV broadcasts on it thus actually using it as a television instead of just a monitor.
It's terrible at that. First, it doesn't have a good way to quickly check the signal strength of multiple channels, so it is awkward and tedious to deal with setting up channels where you need careful antenna positioning to receive them.
Second, when you bring up the channel guide it continues to show the current channel you were watching in a picture-in-picture (PIP) inset. This is good so you can check the guide without interrupting what you are watching. However, if any of the channels listed in the visible part of the guide do not have a good signal the PIP inset freezes for 5-10 seconds while it apparently tries to get information about those channels. You only get the uninterrupted PIP is all the channels on the guide are giving good signals. I've got some that vary depending on weather and atmospheric conditions, and I've got some that I need to change antenna aim to get, and these are scattered throughout the guide so I tend to get the interruption on every page of the guide.
Third, there doesn't seem to be any way to delete a channel. Some of those weak channels causing some of the problems mentioned above were channels I don't care about, but happened to be strong enough when I did the channel setup scan that it added them. Nor is there a way to explicitly add a channel, although I think that if you manually direct it to a channel that it has not auto programmed and it finds a good signal, and you repeatedly do this, it might add it.
One specific thing that I have first-hand experience of is they have a culture of assigning blame instead of preventing access.
So for example, everyone has local admin access, or even network-wide admin access. Instead of Active Directory accounts, users are tracked by their client IP address. In effect, you are your IP address on the network.
Most activity is logged, and then correlated by IP address so that blame can be assigned after-the-fact.
So for example, if you're caught editing a production web page live on the server while 40K people are scratching their heads wondering why they can't log in that morning, you'll get blamed because the remote connection came from your desktop IP when that happened.
Nothing stops some random junior developer editing the production web site on the fly. He'll just be reprimanded or fired.
(NOTE: Some of the specifics above may be out of date now, but the security culture likely remains)
Seems ripe for an insider threat - Sure, they'll catch and fire all the people who slip up or stupidly overstep their authorization or do some vandalism. But a determined and skilled attacker could come in at a very low level and install all kinds of interesting stuff... wow.
Been very happy with our Panasonic OLED. It’s perfectly happy without an internet connection, turns on in 5 seconds flat (a feature these days if you can believe it, as most smart TVs boot a whole Linux or android and take for ever), the amount of options to adjust the image is incredible (they’re used as reference displays in movie studios for coloring movies apparently), and the picture is beautiful. Oh and not a single ad screen anywhere even if you connect it to the internet.
I have a Panasonic from a few years ago (cheapest 4K I could find; is "smart" so has Netflix and Amazon Prime Video and other UK streaming services like More4, ITV Player, Disney+) and it does rely on contacting Panasonic for them to work. Their server went down the other year and ALL of the services on the TV stopped working - Netflix wouldn't launch any more.
It does contact Panasonic but I have blocked the domains with a Pihole and closed outgoing port 53 other than traffic from the Pihole so nothing can make DNS requests directly (eg. hardcoded to 8.8.8.8).
The TV itself is great though. It runs FirefoxOS I believe.
The TV is not as bad as the LG I had before it which sent a web request to LG every time you pressed a button on the remote control... volume up.... web request to LG. Volume down... TV sent a web request to LG.
> Their server went down the other year and ALL of the services on the TV stopped working - Netflix wouldn't launch any more.
> It does contact Panasonic but I have blocked the domains with a Pihole and closed outgoing port 53 other than traffic from the Pihole so nothing can make DNS requests directly (eg. hardcoded to 8.8.8.8).
I don't understand - you've blocked it from contacting Panasonic; does that mean that none of the services work any more? Or is there another domain that it has to keep in contact with that you've allowed? If so, why block the Panasonic domain when you allow it to chat to some other third party?
But it is allowed to access other domains such as:
nrdp.prod.ftl.netflix.com
api-global.netflix.com
vcs.vdspf.com
push.prod.netflix.com
uiboot.netflix.com
appboot.netflix.com
auth-ctv.digitaluk.co.uk
c09.api.freeviewplay.net
secure.netflix.com
Nothing on the network other than the Pi can get out of port 53 (DNS).
If you’re talking about an LCD Panasonic, I can’t say anything about them other then they’re a completely different series than the OLED. Almost like a separate brand.
My OLED has Netflix etc. I used the built in Netflix a few times but don’t anymore since because I don’t use Netflix altogether and not subscribed to them. I put it on a special VLAN that has no internet access but can still send and receive traffic to my home assistant instance so as far as the tv is concerned, it’s offline. But it’s never nagged me about it. And when it was fully online (when using the Netflix app), I never received any ad anywhere.
Yes yours is the posher model! Mine is a LCD - just dug out the model number and it's TX-49EX600B. I languish in LCD land. (And it's 49" - no idea why I thought it was 42").
Nothing wrong with it. If it does the job and you’re happy with it ,why change. I got an OLED because I didn’t mind paying the price as we use the screen a lot but that’s just me.
Panasonic JZ OLED series is amazing. They released an update which has full working support for 4K 120hz VRR (useful for Xbox / gaming) .
I had been looking at Sony before that and saw that they had promised their users for a couple years to release the same 4k 120hz VRR update for a number of bravia models. to date they either didn't release it, or released flawed implementation. There were so many complaints online it steered me clear of Sony.
I then went into the store thinking to buy LG but Panasonic looked very nice. I watched a ton of reviews from HDTVtest on YouTube and took a gamble with the Panasonic. The calibration of the set is very much better than my old Samsung. Night and day.
In the end it was cheaper and I've been very happy.
we have a samsung tv that is exclusively used with an apple tv and it’s seemed ok this far but i’m not sure how/if i can completely kill it trying to connect as we currently have no nearby open networks but if one pops up it’ll try and connect and i detest that
Setup an open wifi link w/ a separate router, search Amazon for travel router for devices under US$35. This may need to provide a response from an expected domain, just connect the TV and a PC to the open wifi (that isn't connected to the internet) and use Wireshark to see what domains the TV is trying to connect to. Setup the router dns to provide 400 responses to those queries, and problem solved.
Why yes, this is a ludicrous amount of technical work to expect the average consumer to do, and it is fucking disgusting that this is even a concern. I'll continue to use my 8 year old TV, I don't need 4k for something I'm watching from 8 feet away anyway.
I had to DMZ a friend's smart TV, since it was booting excessively slowly waiting for a response from the (Sony) servers, which is why I have a work around. Still, spending $35 and polluting the 2.5ghz band even more seems stupid. The TV in question had an ethernet port, but providing 400 responses on that didn't improve boot times, since it tried to find a wifi signal after that. Just stupid that a TV will be slow to turn in depending on what external servers it can contact.
Samsung's smart tag find network could now or in the future be used to exfiltrate data from their smart tvs that arent connected. Not high bandwidth, so it would have to be OCR or text to speech probably. Just like Amazon's Sidewalk network.
The problem is some TV related software ( like Chromecasts and i suppose Android TV / Google TV ) use hardcored DNS servers, so a DNS level filter doesn't help.
Source? On Android with Google Play Services, which almost always applies to Android TV as they’re essentially the same OS, there are no UI toggles to turn off the spying. You can check this using a DNS proxy, for instance, and viewing the log after blocking Google domains using such a proxy might prove quite alarming. Android devices even with location and search tracking disabled contact Google every several minutes.
If you turn these off, particularly "Web & app history", your TV (and all other Google devices) will obey the settings if it is logged into that Google account.
It will still be contacting Google's servers, but it won't be recording anything.
My cheap Hisense U6G works fine as a dumb TV. It’s not hooked up to my network. I use an AppleTV instead. Got it because it was the best 65” TV on rtings under $1K at the time I bought it.
I'm extremely happy with the LG C1. It's not connected to the internet (beyond initial setup so I could update the firmware). LG's setup process let me opt out of everything (including setting up broadcast TV reception, which my older Samsung 4K TV kept trying to harass me about). The only thing that initially annoyed me was the LG logo appeared at shutdown, but that can be disabled in a hidden menu.
I currently use an Apple TV 4K for all my apps, it integrates perfectly with the TV using HDMI CEC and has a clean content-focused UI that's not stuffed with ads (had been considering Android TV).
I will never use a Samsung TV again after my last experience of performance-crippling firmware, nagging, confusing/off-screen opt-out UIs for spyware features, attempting to bypass DNS if telemetry is blocked, and ad-stuffing (KS8000) - nor allow a TV to have a persistent network connection.
Got a Sony OLED (has all that Google TV stuff), connected the TV for a software update, then disable all network connections and plug in an Apple TV. I had a Samsung before that started showing me ads, which was from my point of view a huge violation of my private space and my home (it's a TV that I fully bought, and not a cheap one). Bought the Apple TV, before getting the new Sony and also disabled everything on the Samsung.
Unfortunately, many current TVs ship with advertised-but-missing features, which are added later via a software update. In the current gen, variable framerate input is a good example of this.
I've always heard people claim that TVs will do this, I've never seen one actually do it. I don't believe any TV will speculatively join open wifi without asking.
im using kodi myself. i used libreElec for a few years which is basically just kodi as an OS. i switched to a OSMC recently which is a bit more expensive than a raspberry pi but the hardware and then OSMC skin is a bit nicer
i mainly use it with the jellyfin plugin so all of my media is stored on a NAS and kodi just acts as the player
This is sad. I was looking at S22 and may be it is finally good enough I could switch away from Apple. Now I need to think again.
Doesn't seems like I have much choice.
I have been thinking for some time, what does it take for a third Mobile OS platform. While there are millions of Apps, The absolute essential Apps on smartphone seems to have concentrated to less than a hundred?
The parent comments are talking about phone operating systems not hardware. And Microsoft is failing in that front, the Surface Duo missed it's target date for the Android 11 update multiple times. It didn't receive a11 until 4 months after Android 12 released. If they can't even keep Android up to date, there's no chance of them developing a separate mobile operating system.
Fully agree about the televisions, which is really unfortunate - for video, I'm still using a 2003 DLP unit, Ironically from Samsung, which has great quality (hasn't even needed a new bulb yet). but I won't be touching anything new that requires an internet connection, so Samsung will be entirely off the list.
My question is about their phones - what info do we have on Samsung's spying vs Google or others? I won't touch anything Chinese made for the same reason, but worse. Fairphone doesn't seem to be usable in the US.
Does the same hold true of Samsung's smart appliances? I have some family that is thinking about getting some and the alerts on their smartphones is a selling feature for some reason.
I've been asked "what's the danger of having Samsung datamine my washing machine/dryer/dishwasher". And, unlike say internet viewing habits, it's difficult developing an appropriate threat model. Anything/any ideas I can use to explain to them
It’s not as bad as your tv or your phone but it normalizes the practice. It also opens your local network to all kinds of vulnerabilities because of the world class level of quality and safety whatever smartness in the dishwasher was programmed with. And if it’s a smart anything, it probably comes with the app to make it work, which opens the gateway to our phone and its treasure trove of data.
So yeah I agree with your friends that data mining your dishwasher in itself is rather innocuous, but why allow it to happen altogether and open yourself to all the above?
> why allow it to happen altogether and open yourself to all the above?
According to them, for laundry, they don't want clothes to sit there longer than necessary without being dried or folded. For the dishes, they want to make sure that they remembered to start the dishwasher without having to go check
I definitely wouldn’t call Samsung phones inferior clones. They seem to drive most of the feature development in Android in recent years, with Google catching up by mainlining them a few years later. It seems like only Samsung and Apple are competing to innovate in the smartphone space these days by pushing each other (and copying each other).
I used to work at an electronics store, and another reason I avoid samsung products is because, compared to everything else, they seemed to be engineered to look good for marketing material and spec sheets over actual use. They would look shiny and great and seem to have great features, but the real world UX was so annoying.
I'm skeptical Google - or even Facebook - are taking screenshots of what average users are looking at.
Sure, they're huge companies - somewhere, some one is probably doing this for some edge case.
Either way - even at FB - I would be highly surprised if this data didn't get auto-deleted within a few weeks (at the latest).
And if you're telling me that Samsung is really that much different - I'm surprised - because there's not any way for them to monetize this data. They're just wasting storage and in the process creating a massive liability for themselves...
I wonder if part of it is horribly cheap flash storage used in smart TVs, after a bunch of update cycles, telemetry upload/downloads, etc. etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the flash chips might be wearing out and take longer to read/write to.
That or the TV companies are intentionally making previous TVs slower with updates they know old TVs can't run with any modicum of speed.
> I wouldn't be surprised if the flash chips might be wearing out and take longer to read/write to.
This is what happened to the Nexus 7 tablets, I owned one and the experience, which was great at first, became terrible over time.
Smart TVs are a mistake, unfortunately most (maybe all current productions) are smart TVs nowadays. TVs are something that can last a long while - I kept my old dumb TV for 10 years before the backlight became too dark for my liking -, smart components on the other hand.. plus, it's not like it's a huge inconvenience or extra expense to add something like a chromecast or fire tv to get literally the same experience the smart components provide, except that this time, if the stick dies, you don't have to replace the whole tv.
What they are doing is illegal in many parts of the world, even when it's on the ToS. They also deploy dark patterns to work around laws that protect users.
When you write "this doesn't bother me" when people complain, what should they think?
"Selling your data" is marketing nonsense created for disinformation. Companies like Facebook, Google or even Samsung don't sell data. They collect data and get advertisers to pay them to target ads on their behalf. The user data never leaves their system (unless hacked, but that's a different topic).
No, it doesn't bother me that they show me ads about products I'm actually interested in based on what they know about me. Not only it means that I don't get bothered with things I would most likely not be interested in, it also means that advertising costs go down significantly allowing the market to produce very niche products which would otherwise not be viable. Targeted ads is the best thing that has happened to the economy in the last decades.
This isn't true. Facebook/Google may not be selling your data, but companies like them absolutely are. Data aggregators exist, and they're all about buying your data, creating data products from them and then selling them on to marketing organisations.
Whichever companies are selling data, they are not like Facebook or Google then. I'd say that they're completely different if they literally collect data and sell copies to third parties. This would be illegal in some parts of the world but sure, maybe some do it.
What I'm saying is that Facebook, Google and Samsung companies are not in the business of selling data like the common disinformation messaging would have you believe.
If ad brokers (the Googles of this digital world) ever wanted me to pay attention to them (and their ads), they would give me a toggle to switch ads on and off as I please. As long as a simple choice like this isn't made available to me, then it's uBlock all the way. Or zero interaction from my end with the ad broker's platforms.
I recon from an individual perspective, ads are not a game changer to consumer behavior. They only burden the individual with more decisions to make when choosing a product to buy. Infact, in today's standards they only serve as a way to guess-timate person X bought toothpaste B because of ad campaign Z. Therefore, give us (ad broker Y) some of that kickback. When I still would have bought the toothpaste anyway.
> they would give me a toggle to switch ads on and off as I please
Why would they let you disable ads on their ad-supported platform? There are plans like YouTube premium if you want no ads in there, which I think is worth it and I do pay for it because it is a much better YouTube experience.
By using ad blockers, you are merely taking away from everyone else using the platform. I wish these companies did more to stop ad blockers.
>I recon from an individual perspective, ads are not a game changer to consumer behavior.
That's because from what you wrote, you don't seem to understand how these ad platforms work.
> Why would they let you disable ads on their ad-supported platform?
Because they stand to gain (immensely) from building my trust about their model of advertising if I choose to participate in it. Or maybe am being too optimistic and everyone would disable ads 100% of the time given such an option? Would be an awesome experiment for Google :)
The problem with these platforms you call ad-supported, is even when you pay a subscription for premium the content creators are allowed to slot in sponsored segments which isn't exactly my definition of an ad-free experience.
> By using ad blockers, you are merely taking away from everyone else using the platform. I wish these companies did more to stop ad blockers.
Taking away what exactly? If you could be a bit more specific. Also, you are free to dream in your utopia where ad blockers don't serve a need, just don't expect everyone to follow you there.
> That's because from what you wrote, you don't seem to understand how these ad platforms work
Would be happy if you could explain where I got it wrong.
> Because they stand to gain (immensely) from building my trust about their model of advertising if I choose to participate in it.
They're not gaining out of thin air. They're making a commission on how much they are saving for the advertisers (and hence the advertisees). They're creating immense value, of which, they are taking a small commission. If they were not creating immense value, the advertisers would have no need to use them. They would continue to make their businesses big enough to buy Superbowl ads (or equivalent).
> Taking away what exactly?
By blocking the ads, other people are paying for YOUR use of these services. It's the moral equivalent of not paying taxes, although it is not illegal... yet.
> Would be happy if you could explain where I got it wrong.
For example, you think this is how ad targeting by Facebook and Google works:
> in today's standards they only serve as a way to guess-timate person X bought toothpaste B because of ad campaign Z
And you think this is true:
> ads are not a game changer to consumer behavior.
It's a complete waste of time for me to debate with someone who thinks ads don't affect consumer behavior.
> They're creating immense value, of which, they are taking a small commission. If they were not creating immense value, the advertisers would have no need to use them.
You fail to prove why my logic is wrong and answer your own questions instead, then on top of that make sure to sprinkle vague insults at me! I won't bother providing rebuttals to the rest of your arguments. You make sure you have a good day, moron!
They're selling access to the data, your data all the while you have little to no idea.
The issue you raised about getting targtted ads is fine, I don't think many will dissagree with you, but its about having the option to turn it off. Theres the disconnect. When you're forced into an ecosystem that you cant tailor, it leaves a bad taste.
Facebook, Samsung and Google let you turn this functionality off. They're legally required to do so in parts of the world but they give this option to everyone.
Me either. I have 0 problem with letting a machine seeing that data. Even if a human actually saw it I'm not sure if I would be bothered.
Edit: From the links you sent it doesn't explicitly say it sends screenshots. It sounds more like the ACR is run on device and then the result of that is sent to Samsung.
They are not saying they are okay with it because they have nothing to hide; they are just saying that they don't mind. It just doesn't bother them. And they also aren't arguing that it shouldn't bother you if you don't watch anything wrong or that every TV should spy on their owner.
I am truly, deeply, unsurprised that foldable phones fail along the seam.
I know that's not the point of the post, and I'm not blaming the author. It just seems like such a ridiculous concept in the first place. My old flip phone had its own problems, and there wasn't even a display along the seam.
I don't get the point of this design either, unless it's to show off deliberate planned obolescence. Two regular screens with ultra-narrow bezels on the butt edge would achieve the same effect, without the constantly stressed folding bit. I have some old (almost 10 years old now) smartphone LCDs and the pixels go right up to the edge of the glass itself.
The point is that it has a smaller footprint. While I think the flip is slightly dubious in utility the fold has undeniable utility in being able to fold. You gain a tablet sized screen that fits inside most pockets. I personally find that extremely compelling. Two screens doesn't achieve the same effect because it's two screens. Unless there's no bezel or physical gap (that you are going to feel any time you're using the device) then you can't utilize the size of the screen to its fullest potential. Microsoft's Duo phone does use two screens but it defeats the point of having one massive screen.
Some, possibly many of the people who bought these phones were totally willing beta-testers. Some people are just excited about a new piece of technology and have the means to drop upwards of $1500 on it just for kicks.
What happens if one tiny piece of grit gets in-between the two screens at the visually seamless butt edge? It then gets leveled as they click into place and cracks one doesn't it?
Apple has developed it's own silicon and the chips powering iPhones, iPads and Macs are now the same. They come up with new and interesting manufacturing processes, or supply chain management. Their phones have lidar now. But you know what I've hear for years even from developer friends? "Apple can no longer innovate."
Samsung comes up with a folding screen of dubious quality or changes the shape of the phone and people love it. Internally it's just another Qualcomm or Exynos or whatever. But then what isn't besides Apple? Seems reasonable to try and carve out their segment of the Android market and I think they are largely successful. I know people who will specifically buy Samsung even when you can get similar specced phones for cheaper.
>even from developer friends? "Apple can no longer innovate."
You could consider getting new friends who are more intelligent. Some people are being fooled by the fact that a rectangle shape is staying consistent year after year, a very surface attribute. Apple does deep work. People who think only the surface matters are missing the story.
Sure, parasitism works pretty well in fact. I just couldn’t stomach promoting it by using one of their gimmick-festooned phones. But plenty of people don’t give a shit.
I love the idea of explaining a company's process as "deep work"! To me it resonates re Apple and I'm now intrigued on who else falls into that category.
For some reason Google does not seem to fit, possibly because of Xoogler anecdotes I've read here. GitHub seems close but maybe too scattered in many directions (for example, they seem to have some new huge feature in beta every other week). Airbnb does deep work from what I've seen (I attended an internal hackathon once). I wonder if that's not one of the strengths of YC and YC-picks, inherently...
Like, a lot of people? I don't know anyone who's even been intrigued enough to buy it, and an overwhelming majority of feedback I hear online is negative.
This reasoning implies that it's the continuity of a single screen which makes that device capable of being folded inwards.
This is in fact completely backward: a continuous deformable surface has all the problems of two exactly adjacent but discontinuous surfaces, with the additional problem of providing relief for the fold.
Yeah but that's not nearly as bad as a fully disconnected seam between two separate screens, unless you also imagine using the same plastic surface across them or something.
But really, we should just look at Microsoft's Duo and see the reality of a two screen device.
I would be more excited about the idea if both the folded and unfolded modes actually had desirable aspect ratios. The current fold's "front" screen in closed mode is this weird super narrow display that will be yet another nightmare for web and app developers to adjust for, and the full unfolded screen has a close to 4:3 ratio which doesn't suit any media other than possibly GameCube games
The only way a foldable phone would makes any sense to me is if it's actually two fully functional perforated phones that you can tear apart and use independently, in case one of them fails, or you need to lend a phone to somebody else.
Maybe they could sell big roles of perforated phones, so you can just tear a new phone off the end each time you need one, like toilet paper.
If they made the screen as easy to replace as possible, treat them as consumable like removable battery, and sell the replacement at reasonable cost, it might actually works. Swapping a foldable screen once a year at $50 on a >$1000 phone is reasonable expense IMO.
those screens are the most expensive part, on top of that replacing them is hard due to technology that makes them good(good enough?), you make them easily replaceable and it will make them less desirable by the customer.
It is the most expensive part, yes, but even so, the BoM price for that flexible screen might still be cheap enough to be passed on to customer. They'll need to be creative on how to make that part as easy to replace as possible with as few material and complexity as possible, maybe like applying a piece of screen protector and slotting the edge into a slot like those thin flex wires.
So the author had a folding phone that failed and couldn't get it repaired/replaced. The narrow take is that you're kinda crazy to buy a folding phone but Samsung was selling them so is really on the hook for the inevitable issues.
The story of getting it fixed is really why people love Apple and even Amazon.
I've had the Wifi go unreliable on an iPad. I got a Genius appointment for later that day. They confirmed the Wifi module was shot and just gave me a new device on the spot. They even offered to do the transfer for me. This sort of convenience is what gives people confidence in buying Apple products.
Even something as simple as accessory access matters. If my Macbook charger dies, I can walk into any number of stores and buy another. Dell charger? Not so much.
Amazon has pretty accurate shipping estimates. This matters. So does Apple for the record. Just last week I got sent the wrong product. I didn't have to talk to anyone on the phone. I simply went to my order on my phone and clicked "return item" -> "wrong product" and the entire matter was dealt with.
I don't want to deal with support that is deliberately hard to contact that is monetarily motivated to not do anything for you.
> The story of getting it fixed is really why people love Apple and even Amazon.
> I've had the Wifi go unreliable on an iPad. I got a Genius appointment for later that day. They confirmed the Wifi module was shot and just gave me a new device on the spot. They even offered to do the transfer for me. This sort of convenience is what gives people confidence in buying Apple products.
I'm still using Apple hardware myself, but I daresay that if Apple corporate decides not to admit fault and fix something, users will be SOL too.
Apple has never admitted fault for their shoddy MagSafe charger cable insulation, which always end up disintegrating and spewing blue stuff all over my furniture.
I've had multiple cables flake over the years, and every time I bring the the charger to a Genius bar (so far: Australia, Japan, and Singapore), they've always fallen back to "policy" and blamed it on me for not taking care of it properly.
Apple cables really are terrible. I've had teh cladding come off multiple Lightning cables to the point I never use the Apple cable anymore. I just buy Anker cables without thinking about it.
I honestly don't know how Apple cables can be this bad. More to the point, I don't understand how Apple leadership can tolerate this from a PR perspective.
Allegedly, one major reason is that Apple has been successfully pressured by Greenpeace to remove PVC from their cables, causing them to be more brittle and fail sooner. https://fee.org/articles/this-is-the-real-reason-your-iphone... is one source, but Apple and Greenpeace themselves tout this "achievement". It seems to me to be just like replacing nuclear power with coal and natural gas power: another casualty of ideological extremism at the expense of the actual environment.
I've heard this before and am still puzzled by it. I've been using Apple devices for over a decade, and only ever had one or two phone charger cables fray, but they were really heavily used and looked like they were used in a farm for months. The vast majority still looks perfectly fine. I guess there must be small habits that have a great effect on degradation. Like stowing away the charger after every use vs keeping it in place at a desk, for example.
that might be a thing, but chargers are supposed to be portable unless I'm buying a power supply for a computer. Apple's cables aren't good design, and planned obsolescence
same here. I had numerous technical problems with my rMacbook Pro, but having to pay Apple tax every year for the Magsafe 2 design/material defect was most infuriating. Having owned several Dell and Apple laptops over past two decades, I never had to call Dell for support, but Apple on the other hand...
And no, I didn't get a new Magsafe 2 charger or MacBook Pro on the spot.
> The story of getting it fixed is really why people love Apple and even Amazon.
It's really one of those anecdotal experiences.
I used Samsung devices exclusively because they have RMA offices all around SEA region. On the other hand Apple's iCare in my current town has 2.2 stars on google reviews which I didn't know was even possible. When my work iPhone's battery died I decided to drop 70$ from my own pocket rather than deal with iCare - that's how bad it was.
All I'm saying that warranty service anecdotes are just that - anecdotes, and your milage might vary.
> I used Samsung devices exclusively because they have RMA offices all around SEA region.
And how long does that take? Do you need to speak to Samsung support on the phone to get an RMA number? How easy is that? That seems to be the process according to Google. What have you had to get repaired this way? What was the process?
> On the other hand Apple's iCare in my current town has 2.2 stars on google reviews
First, what is iCare? Do you mean an Apple Store? Are you referring to AppleCare? Or something third party? I'm genuinely curious: which store? Can you point to it specifically?
> When my work iPhone's battery died I decided to drop 70$ from my own pocket rather than deal with iCare - that's how bad it was.
This story doesn't really pass the smell test to me. Who is dropping money to fix a work phone rather than having work deal with it? Was this out of pocket or expensed?
AFAIK Apple doesn't have first party stores on most SEA countries, so the stores/service centers are probably owned by 3rd party authorized distributors.
My own experience with android manufacturers' service center in SEA is you simply come in to their store, hand over the device, and get a quote later via email (if the damage is not covered by warranty). Direct device replacement on the spot is very rare, never even see it happening myself.
Not to nerd snipe anyone (I'm having to stop myself as I write this) but couldn't you gather the star ratings of all of these sorts of repair centers/stores and get the overall average? It could be used as a sort of proximate net promoter score and we would be able to more objectively talk about the differences in quality...
> The narrow take is that you're kinda crazy to buy a folding phone but Samsung was selling them so is really on the hook for the inevitable issues.
It's not up to a customer to decide whether a product is "technically" feasible. Lots of things that "seem" impossible or unreasonable are usable and practical, e.g. compact high wattage laptop chargers compared to the absolute _units_ we used to get and still get on cheaper laptop models. The blame here is squarely on samsung; They decided that this product was fit for sale and as a result need to support it, whether or not people who buy it are "kinda crazy"
Apple isn't immune from this sort of thing. A long time back I had an iPhone < 6 months old that bricked on me. I thought it would be a simple replacement but the Genius tech told me the moisture sensor had triggered and they couldn't do a warranty replacement. My phone had never been close to a drop of water, and it was going around the news at the time that this issue with false positives on the moisture sensor were common, but Apple wouldn't make good on it.
I quit Apple then & there-- previously I had used apple laptops, iPods, iPhones, iPads since they had first been released, but decided I wouldn't pay their premium anymore if I wasn't going to get premium service.
About two years later I got a small settlement from a class action brought against Apple over their use of faulty moisture sensors. Not enough to cover repair cost, though I didn't get it repaired, I switched to Android.
I find it funny that your definition of "getting it fixed" is throwing the whole thing to the garbage can and giving you a brand new one. It fixes your problem, but I wouldn't exactly call that fixing the phone.
I find it funny that you make the assumption that it goes into the trash instead of going for refurbishment so it can be sold again. Even if it did go into the "trash" there are plenty of videos out there on apple's device recycling tech.
Who says that device isn't fixed and sold as refurbished? Or used for parts for other repairs? Or simply recycled?
> It fixes your problem, but I wouldn't exactly call that fixing the phone.
What kind of copium is this? Devices break. Even the most reliable devices just break less. What matters to the customer is how that is resolved. The customer wants a working device. Period.
Would this be somehow better if Apple sent the device off for fixing and I'd get it back in 3 weeks (maybe)?
They clearly mean "fixed" from the perspective of having a useable device, which is inline with the original article.
Yes, the (lack of) repairability is a problem, but it's separate.
What's more, we can expect Apple at least attempts to refurbish some devices. Even if it's just for parts. That's more than what Samsung did in the original article.
A corollary to this take is that I don’t think folks appreciate how much Apple and Amazon have moved expectations. We’ve definitely adapted to this new normal that is insanely consumer friendly. But as soon as we get a taste of the way things used to be, it’s eye opening how far we’ve come.
I think Google might be more of the same, but I just don’t have enough experience with the company.
I’ve heard horror stories from Microsoft when it comes to hardware.
I will hand it to Apple and Amazon. I've had a few lost packages with Amazon and in every case it was a no questions asked exchange or return, like I'm pissed that the package got lost but it's hard to stay mad when Amazon responds that way.
Not sure how Genius Bar support has evolved but I remember my little brother got an original iPad when it came out. Well kid took it to school, and someone kicked his backpack with the iPad inside and the screen got smashed. We took it to Apple and I remember the rep saying something along the lines of "we understand this was your fault, but we'll replace it anyways". Apple clearly is thinking about the long game, the price to replace an iPad pales in comparison to what that customer will spend on your products if you treat them right.
Dell still has models with barrel chargers. Some of them do support USB-C charging as well but only have one USB-C port. I own one of those, regrettably.
I remember fondly when I had an iPod, the one time I had an issue with it (can’t remember what, honestly), I just walked into an apple store and probably 5-10 minutes later walked out with a new device, free of charge, no questions asked (after they tried resetting it once)
I’m sure someone in these companies has made a spreadsheet that shows permissive repair and replacement policies cost $X million a year, but it probably doesn’t take into account that the experience with the iPod directly led to me purchasing multiple iPhones and Macs.
Gosh. I hate Apple’s right to repair BS, but to this day Apple remains the only consumer electronics company that has provided a consistently positive technical support experience for me.
It’s so hard to step out the Apple ecosystem when these other manufacturers have consistently screwed me over with repairs.
I’m specifically calling out Dell, Samsung and LG here. All were utterly terrible experiences.
Dell was the absolute worst though. They sold me a $1,700+ XPS notebook that months later had a non-functional trackpad, and they refused to do anything to rectify the situation. With an investment that large I need certainty that I can get support, and thus far Apple is the only PC OEM that has provided that.
If anyone can suggest non-Apple OEMs that at least provide a competitive support experience, I’m all ears.
An alternative to have a company fix your expensive gadget is to do it yourself. I think about the Framework laptop. In your situation even if the company declined payment (then I wold be disappointed), I would have sucked it up and ordered a new trackpad and installed it myself. It's not the same but at least the consequences would not be so distastrous.
Im a software engineer, the last thing I want to do is take days waiting for X part to arrive, then spend hours figuring out how to remove/install X part without breaking my machine worse.
If I wanted to tinker, I'd buy a Raspbery PI. I want to get work done while giving as little thought as possible to the hardware I'm using to facilitate the work.
Lenovo. With whatever level of support you want to pay for.
If speed and downtime and hands-off are the most important features that trump all others, then this whole post about the cost of a bad warranty policy wasn't for you in the first place.
You don't have time for warrantys!
You just pull out the spare laptop you got at the same time as the one that broke, or your old one wich is only 1 year old and still more than good enough to work on while the new one is down. Or you just immediately go down to Staples or BestBuy or Microcenter and buy a new one.
Apple is not a magic better option where you can have your cake and eat it too. They routinely deny warranty or even reasonable paid repair for things they shipped defective. I have several unfortunate friends with laptops and all-in-ones over the years with dead video cards that Apple refused to repair, and they are not self repairable because even for the desktop model the video card is non-standard so you can't just replace it, and thanks to Apple's unique actions wrt getting the government to seize things at the border, no one else is even allowed to make a replacement either. And those keyboards...they stopped making them, yet did they ever make good on all those people they sold those models to? Apple routinely, routinely, absolutely screws over people who believed the marketing about how great the support is. That high premium you pay for the device goes to sending high paid lawyers to every small town to make sure they win in court against petty warranty suits from ordinary individuals.
They spend $10k just make sure that a warranty for a $50 part does not win in court. That is not better than the article's terrible Samsung experience.
Eh. The reason I buy Apple is I just know the thing will work, and if it doesn't, I can take it down the street to the Apple store and have it replaced.
It's not that I don't like to tinker, I love tinkering with things. But things like my primary phone or primary computer I need to "just work", and I need them to work all the time with minimal downtime.
At least for me, Apple's selling point of "just let us take care of it" is very appealing, I'm already dealing with a ton of things every day, I don't need to add "fixing my phone" to that list.
How does the battery life compare to my M1 MacBook Air? How does the performance compare to my Air? How bad is the fan noise compared to my fanless Air?
Framework shipped their first product in 2021. Let's give them a bit before comparing them to an extremely matured product from one of the richest companies ever. If they survive long enough to make a version 5.0, it'll probably still be worse than the MacBook due to the lower level of integration, but modularity is a definite perk.
It’ll still be a worse computer in every way but it will have modularity.
Or
“Other than that, how was the play Ms. Lincoln”
Have you ever thought Apple got to be the richest company in the world from almost being bankrupt a little over 20 years ago by not shipping sub par hardware?
Personally I don't care what it sounds like, so long as it can work under load, and my Macbook Pro can't. It throttles when ambient temperature is over 25 degrees C, and
I haven't unplugged my Macbook Pro more than a couple times in the last 2 years.
In short, I'd take a two inch thick Clevo that sounds like a 747 and only lasts for 2 hours if it meant not having to worry about turning my HVAC on when I want to do a screenshare.
And for me Dell is the OEM I trust the most as if something goes wrong with my XPS laptop Dell will happily spend the cost of the laptop just to get someone here by tomorrow to fix it.
Nobody else I know of stands behind their laptops like that. If a company by default bets money on their own products then that's reassuring. Is the product any good? Prove it, like Dell.
Not that XPS laptops don't fail, cause they do, but at least it's rare enough that Dell is willing to spend large amounts on on-site next business day repair.
But to be honest I agree with people having mixed experiences, like for me Apple has been awful, a macbook of just few months was not fixed because I allegedly caused the issue (I had horizontal lines on the display, that happened by itself just while I was watching a 4k movie), so I kinda have adopted the policy that I don't buy anything unless it's extremely needed, so like I have had a oneplus for few years now (since it came out?) and have some bluetooth issues, every now and then I just go on some ecommerce website to try to scroll around for smartphones but to be honest after a while I just leave because I start thinking about customer service specifically, if I have to spend money but then I have to factor in the price the time to solve issues, to be ignored by customer service, to see like all the hidden and minuscule written points in the terms of service that are there just to make you regret buying something, I just get demotivated and think that it's probably better to think about keeping the bluetooth issue rather than be frustrated after having spent a sum of money to have new issues, I am not sure vendors care, but sometimes I feel like that they as a whole are just alienating customers
> months later had a non-functional trackpad, and they refused to do anything to rectify the situation
How is that not covered by the standard, mandated 1-year warranty? Did they pull the same BS described in the article?
Apple is no saint for this kind of stuff either though, I still remember the red humidity marker in the headphone jack that denied repairs to many people because of “water damage” (which was actually just sweat, probably)
> If anyone can suggest non-Apple OEMs that at least provide a competitive support experience, I’m all ears.
Here in Norway it used to be (at least with HP) that if you bought the professional line you'd get professional service.
I had a personal nc6320 bought some 17 years ago and they would literally come to my desk and replace the monitor free of charge. (No, I didn't have a paid support plan, this was included in the purchase price and I had bought it myself, not through a company.)
Around the same time, trying to get a consumer grade HP repaired was just painful.
Good observation, but then wouldn't they also want to broadcast this?
I was totally surprised when I called them and they asked me to call business support and business support just asked where they could find me and when I wanted them to be there. I can't remember a single clue pointing in this direction before I called customer support for home computers.
(Then again: I should stop getting surprised by companies that waste fantastic marketing opportunities.)
> I hate Apple’s right to repair BS
It seems they've concluded it's unavoidable and announced their program for selling parts, tools and providing repair manuals to anyone interested.
Lenovo delivered a replacement charger for my entry-level ThinkPad really fast (it was the next day I believe). And for free, after a couple of questions on the phone.
Similar experience with the airpods. They stopped pairing right. Walked in to the store, they ran through some basic tests, plugged their diagnostics tool in, then handed over a new pair and it was done all on the same day.
After several years of use, I wanted a battery replacement for my 1st-gen Retina Macbook Pro, so I brought it to the Apple Store. The device was old, but still supported, though far outside even the Apple Care window.
I was told they they should normally be able to do this replacement, but they didn't have replacement batteries available. After mentioning I could just leave the device with them until the stock became available, they went off into the back for a few minutes.
When they returned, they said they would accept my years old Macbook as a return for its original purchase price and I walked out with a brand new Macbook Pro essentially for the cost of the tax.
I cannot imagine getting this service from any other computer vendor.
I used to abuse new iPhones, and before the warranty ran out claim that the battery life was not up to scratch. They always replaced my phone. Once I got a new phone when the damage was clearly my fault but I played dumb anyway.
I've been on the other side: Dealing with returns and warranty claims at scale, albeit at a much larger company.
You're not alone. A lot of people will invest a lot of time into lying, playing dumb, making threats (think people with a lot of Twitter followers threatening to broadcast how terrible your company is unless you give them exactly what they want) and other manipulative tactics to abuse warranty claims.
Ultimately this is why we had to become more strict about warranty claims. When half of your warranty claims are coming from people angling for free upgrades or demanding full-price refunds after many years of service (some of whom tried to demand to keep the hardware and get a refund), you quickly become numb to it. I guess companies like Apple can absorb the lies for a while, but eventually you have to make a choice between padding your margins to cater to the warranty abusers or becoming more strict on warranty claims.
Apple understands something many retailers have lost. The way you deal with the customer when they’re not happy turns you into a lifetime customer. And if it doesn’t it’s a small price to pay.
Costco, Nordstrom, Marine Layer, etc.
To me this is a winning strategy. Even if it’s 1 in 5 or less.
If that one warranty-abusing user convinces 2-3 others to buy the same product and they don't abuse the warranty, the company is still making more money.
It comes down to margin. In a commodity business like Android phones or TVs the margins are razor thin. With a 10% profit margin you’d need to convince 10 other buyers just to break even on one fraudulent replacement. The real difference is Apple has some of the best profit margins in the industry.
The author's point is that he was careful and the request for warranty repair was not some abuse attempt. Of course deceitful demands for warranty should be declined.
Even Apple will not honor warranties in cases of obvious abuse and lies.
Yeah I remember one customer with multiple destroyed tv's (spilled beer or other moisture damage, panels had rust) getting them repaired on samsungs dime because they ware "the voice of the customer".
It was annoying, but we did bill samsung for all the work. :)
The blogs author might also like the fact that samsung owns their warranty repair infrastructure, they don't contract it out.
So less repairs means more profit. While contractors repair everything that is not obviously deliberate.
...and that's why companies that don't have Apple's generous profit margins have to be extra careful with their return policies. Or, more generally: this is why we can't have nice things.
I’d imagine someone decides either based on the results of the tests not aligning with expectations (in which case —- cool), or because they’d rather not come out to a customer with a hard ‘no’ on a replacement, and essentially comp it as a courtesy. I wonder if in your case it’s simply been the latter.
Retail is hard. Perhaps less hard for Apple, but I wonder to what extent the retail store employees end up paying for stuff like this.
In a previous life I worked at a Sears. Back when that was a thing.
I was in lawn and garden during springtime. People would come in and buy a fully loaded top of the line lawn tractor. A week later it would be back, covered in mud and grass clippings, clearly having been through hell. Inevitably they were not happy with it. Probably because their pasture was now mowed.
I moved to electronics in the winter. Same story around the Super Bowl but this time big screen TVs.
It was easy to tell. Customers who just went straight to the big ticket item without any questions were obviously not interested in a long term purchase. But we just ate it.
The shitty thing was I got paid commission. Those returns got clawed back in my next paycheck.
I think Apple at least has the decency to pay their retail employees hourly.
Over time, Apple got strict about replacing their Lightning charging cable and wired EarPods (headphones). They would regularly wear out for me.
In earlier iPhone generations, they would replace your EarPod headphones without a hassle (or wait). Later on (as Apple got more popular and Apple store genius bar lines grew longer), you had to make a reservation and they would only consider replacing it after checking the cable's (discrete) serial number.
Sounds like another reason why they pushed to get rid of cables and ports, risk of damage and warranty claims. I mean it's a win-win for them because Apple devices get a reputation for being reliable then (which is counteracted by things like butterfly keyboards). I mean wireless charging is a solution for a problem many people run into, dust / lint buildup in the charging port.
I took my unbootable mac mini under warranty , they repaired it without any charge. 2 months later same issue but warranty was finished. Repair estimate was half of the device price!(In India). This was not the first device whose repair cost so much. Really Apple devices are very good as long as you have warranty. If not for iOS development, i would not be buying it.
I'd be curious to see if they voluntarily bootstrap brand love through these wonderful (really) tactics only to gradually remove the rate of free swaps. I have heard a few stories of "we can't fix nor replace that device, but you can buy a new one for 10$ less than market price".
The math here depends on the retail presence and the margins that Apple already has. You don't want to be without your phone or laptop for even one day if you can avoid it. This customer experience doesn't happen without you being able to get to an apple store.
What a ridiculous notion. The device costs over a thousand fucking euros! Samsung doesn't sell it with a warning that says "this device is for early adopters and won't be repaired should it fail due to a manufacturing defect." Any decent company would fix it, full stop.
Well yeah. Buying something early is the most expensive time to buy it. The inefficiencies haven't been worked out of the manufacturing process yet, and there's not an established wide customer base to spread the R&D over yet.
Radios in the 1920s cost over 100 hours of wages for a lot of people. TVs in the 50s were stupid expensive. Computers in the early 60s were literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. And all of these things were pretty garbage compared to what you think of today. Hell, the computer from the early 60s could probably lose a math race to a seasoned abacus veteran.
In exchange for the high risk and high payment, you get to play with something that might be cool, and you get bragging rights (depending on your personality type, one of these might excite you more than the other).
> Any decent company would fix it, full stop.
Well, probably. I'm not going to defend samsung here. They're acting pretty garbage.
But the point about new tech being risky, is entirely fair. If something's still exciting, it's probably a good idea for the risk-averse to avoid it.
It's the true in everything, gen 1 version of cars, fridges, you name it.
I try to get gen 2 or later after a new revision.
I made an exception with my current car because all the electronics are new which to be frank are probably the biggest risk, but Isuzu engines, drive trains and gear boxes have barely changed in 10+ years. And they're the parts I'm more worried about and the 6 year warranty covers everything else.
But as you said, the same reliability can never be expected in consumables like computers, phones and the like.
> But the point about new tech being risky, is entirely fair. If something's still exciting, it's probably a good idea for the risk-averse to avoid it.
Seems like you're saying a person who bought a thousand euro phone and couldn't get it repaired under warranty after a month of mild use is "risk-averse" if they dislike that experience.
Would a truly non-risk-averse person be overjoyed by this experience or see no problem with it? Would they accept it as the price they pay for being an early adopter and see no reason to complain? I'm confused.
> Seems like you're saying a person who bought a thousand euro phone and couldn't get it repaired under warranty after a month of mild use is "risk-averse" if they dislike that experience.
I'm saying that a person who is risk-averse should probably avoid this. There aren't very many third party repair places yet, so you're completely at the mercy of a single company.
There's also an increased risk if said company is based outside your country (or supra-national political union, should you live in one). It's harder for a country to force a company in another jurisdiction into compliance.
The point wasn't that it was expensive. The author happily paid the expense. They claim to even be happy to suffer the annoyance of downtime and repair even though they didn't abuse the device. Those are the only 2 things an early adopter is obligated to asorb.
The point was that it was all 4 together of: expensive, immature, unsupported, and not sold as unsupported.
It was sold with a standard warranty like any product, yet in reality they just deny the claim no matter how valid.
The expense only means that's why you care, that they take your money which did not break on them a few weeks later, and don't honor their promises.
There's plenty of times in Apples history where looking cool has won out over practical concerns. People have more money than sense and will happily ignore that they could buy a rock solid (literally) feature phone for <50 dollars, if in doing the opposite they can look trendy.
> There's plenty of times in Apples history where looking cool has won out over practical concerns.
I'm not even sure "looking cool" was a factor in some of the worst ones. "Winning industrial design awards for being thinner than possible" stands out to me. In pursuit of that, they had four years worth of laptop keyboards that didn't work long term, and got rid of the most amazing feature ever for laptop charging (MagSafe), to thin things out further with USB-C. Not a bad connector, but definitely a bad charging connector compared to MagSafe for people with kids, pets, etc.
I'm glad they've gone back to a laptop that seems to work, but... I've lost interest.
Eh yes and no. I’m a firm member of the function over form camp.
I’ve had Androïd for a decade after Apple forced an update to the iPhone 3G that made it so slow you couldn’t even dial a number anymore.
But a couple years ago, I bought a used iPhone 6s because I got tired of the Androïd flakiness and lack of quality in general. All my trust in google also eroded over time.
I don’t regret jumping ships again. The iPhone works well, I can still block all ads (except in the YouTube app) using nextdns.io, my 6 years old iPhone still gets updates and runs well. The only thing I miss is newpipe but the trade off was worth it.
The 50$ China androids you mention are riddled with spyware and provide few or no updates once the phone has been released. Then you have to deal with alternative roms if they exist which means you’re spending more time making your phone work that actually being able to use it normally.
Not saying it can appeal to some but it’s not for everyone if you want something that just works and is affordable.
I paid 200$ for my used iPhone 2 years ago and I’m keeping it until they stop proving iOS updates AND then new features in the new iOS would actually be useful to me.
I replaced the battery myself last year (cost 10$ + the ifixit tool set for 70$ which I’ve used many times to fix other things). It’s not quite 50$ but it’s not 1000$ either.
Edit: not talking about MacBooks. This is a completely different story with brain dead decisions to look good even if it fails constantly (their shitty keyboards of the last 4–5 years) or refusing to even acknowledge let alone fix serious issues (like that MacBook with the gpu desoldering itself and failing in groves while apple was saying lalalalala and ignoring the problem for YEARS. I won’t ever buy a MacBook, they’re not good value and I don’t trust Apple to make good decisions about them or own up their mistakes with them. Plus they cost multiples more than a decent used laptop or workstation on which you can run Linux and upgrade components whenever needed so it can last you 5–10 years.
Assuming you want a feature phone because you want something small that isn’t going to monopolize your attention, the Nokia 6300 4G probably fits the bill.
Samsung can not just opt out of German warranty law by printing stuff on the box. They are required to prove the customer is at fault if a fault occurs within the fist six months after purchase, but I see no proof of wrong usage by the customer here.
I believe that is a cross EU thing, since the UK got it while still a member.
i.e. the reversed burden of proof during the first 6 months, where it is assumed the device is at fault, and they supplier has to prove it is not.
So in this case I'd agree, I see little proof just an assertion, and would suggest they institute the process for their equivalent of a Small Claims Court case.
If you're going to make this critique, you should grapple with this passage from the article:
> As with any new technology it takes time to iron out early problems. Things break, need to be fixed, improved etc. That’s all fine! I wasn’t angry when the phone broke, I was angry when it wasn’t repaired.
I think the critique and the passage go hand in hand: if Samsung repaired the break for free, they would be the ones bearing the risk of the new technology. Because they didn't, they're making the customer bear the risk.
That the phone might break is inherent in the fact that it's a new technology. The question is who pays for it when it does, the customer or the manufacturer.
I was an early adopter of a Chumby (damn I loved that thing). The risk I took was that they would go out of business and no longer support the eco system - that risk proved real.
I can accept taking a risk and it not working out, this is taking one risk and having the company try and pin other risks on you.
Blaming the customer for your weak ass product is not the early-adopter risk, its the caveat emptor / screw you risk. I reject the idea that early adopter means accepting bad quality.
I recently had an issue with my car (A volvo for what it matters) with some painted plastic pealing. It was the first model year, I wasn't surprised, things need to get worked out...the early adopter risk is from them working things out. I took it in and they initially rejected the warranty claim and blamed me. I offered to have a paint chemist friend look at it and do an analysis - that changed their tune quickly. The early adopter risk I took was to my time that there might be some manufacturing quirks...not to them being sleazy about standing by their products.
No, being an early adopter is dealing with issues like the seam being noticeable, or the lifetime of the hinge mechanism maybe being underspecified, not a manufacturer shirking a warranty repair 3 months after the device was purchased.
There you go. Never buy the first edition of a new product innovation or technology. It is guaranteed to end in disappointment and they are essentially beta testing.
Better to wait for it to mature first in newer versions than to jump into the hype squad and leave disappointed.
>There you go. Never buy the first edition of a new product innovation or technology.
But the model number mentioned in the post resolves to "Samsung Galaxy Z Flip3 5G" which sounds not "first edition"? According to wikipedia samsung's first foldable phone came out in 2019.
We had some installation issues with a samsung washer. The runaround was ridiculous. To see what I mean, try to order a replacement part. Here’s a link to their official US parts distributor. I spent over a half hour on hold with Samsung to get this URL. Rest assured the actual parts distributor doesn’t pick up the phone at all:
This site truly has to be experienced to be fully appreciated. Try to find a part for one of their appliances (like a latch or hose or something). Here’s a list of some of their model numbers:
You may be wondering why I needed to order replacement parts for one of their appliances during initial installation. Let’s just say I’m not buying any of their crap again either.
If that’s not bad enough to scare you off, their fridges have cameras that use deep learning to translate video into marketing info, then phone it home (joining it with information from local samsung tvs if possible).
I posted my full rant about my terrible experience with Samsung at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30424010 if you want the full story, but in a nutshell, we had two Samsung Dishwashers and a Samsung Stove and a Galaxy Note9 all go out at an unrepairable level within a two-year period. And as for the Refrigerator and Microwave, they are still standing after two years but have major design flaws.
They can't design a dishwasher that doesn't die within a year. At least Best Buy honored the warranties on them - twice.
This might not work in your case for various reasons but, if you live in California:
“ LPT: If you live in California, manufacturers of most household electronic goods that sell for more than $100 have to provide spare parts for up to seven years, regardless of warranty status. If they can't make the parts available to you, they have to buy the product back from you.”
I briefly had a Samsung fridge. Total garbage. Impossible to clean without breaking stuff. Made weird noises.
I have two theories.
1) Ignorance.
Samsung's fridge team had never seen a fridge before. Certainly had never used or owned their own fridges.
2) Spite.
Samsung's fridge team harbored a deep visceral hatred of all things fridge related. They despise each and everyone of their customers on a personal basis. They hate their occupation, their employer, each other, and themselves and work overtime to covertly sabotage all work products.
This is the correct reason. Every single large chain has their own specific model number for an appliance. Then they can loudly advertise how their "KJVADSF123AAFBB" washer is the cheapest ever and they'll price match if someone sells it for cheaper.
...but they're the only ones selling that exact model.
I think it’s because they have so many variants for an appliance that it would be impossible to come up with English names (see ikea and their ridiculous names you can’t remember or infer anything from)
At least the number of bits of info you can encore with the appliance VIN like scheme is meaningful.
I'm willing to bet that General Motors has no fewer variants of the Chevrolet Camaro that you can buy: with three different engine choices, two or three different transmission choices, with or without A/C, power steering, seat material, exteriour colour, stripes and badging package, interior colour, radio options, suspension packages, etc etc etc.
It's still all sold as a Chevrolet Camaro and the vast majority of parts are shared - they all use e.g. the same glass, ventilation plastic, ignition switch, etc. When you do need something option specific, such as spark plugs, you do identify your vehicle by VIN.
From my experience fixing appliances, the things that break (button mounting plates, the plastic door frame, that horrible hose coming down from the pump on otherwise excellent Bosch models) is very very commonly shared across models that look the same on the outside.
Maybe it’s like the mattress industry: a scam so that you can’t compare or price match the same model at different retails because “it’s not the same model number”.
Not sure that is a good analogy. Sure, the VIN lets you deduce the general make and model of the car, but there should be zero information about any optional things encoded - but of course they have a different list of "oh, it's a Camaro, so the entertainment system can only be a A, B, or C"
reding the entire thread here, i think you guys have a real issue with customer protection laws.
here, we have an EU law that says that anything bought online can be returned in 14 days no questions asked. also, the warranty is for 2 years minimum.
yeah, i know it’s a socialist law, but you can bet anything on the fact that corporations will get out of their way to increase their profit. maybe caring for people should be more important.
Same in Australia, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission don't fuck around. We were the first country in the world to force Steam to refund games too.
This is why I always go with Apple. I've always just walked in, yeeted my phone at them and gotten a new one. I've had four warranty issues since my original 3GS and every time the experience has been pleasant. I've also had an AirPod replaced when it no longer kept charge and was within the warranty period. The same has also applied to other family members who have had failing devices and Apple always replaces them instantly.
I recommend Apple phones to everyone in my family for the specific reason that if you have a broken Apple device, you can walk into an Apple store and get it fixed.
Here's something I noticed: the fans of Apple hardware know they can do this, because they... have to do this. I've had 9 or so different laptops in my life over the last 2 decades, from bargain bin models to latest high-spec Lenovo. The only times I've had to fix a laptop was twice in the last 3 years on work-assigned MBP (once the motherboard failed, another time the keyboard fell apart), then had to replace a failing HDMI adapter, then the charger for it.
Maybe I'm lucky and have a terribly weird experience with hardware. But every person I personally know who uses Apple hardware has been to their store to fix/replace it at some point. Apple is definitely doing a good job with servicing, because those people are also happy this is a possibility, but... having to do it at all feels weird to me. (anecdata of course)
I went through 3 lenovos in the past 17 years. I had 3 failures:
1. HDD failed.
2. SSD failed.
3. I dropped it from kitchen countertop. Backlight had to be replaced, but otherwise fine.
There was zero failure associated with ports, keyboard, trackpad, or board. Mind you, each machine went through thousands of dock / undock cycle. Even batteries were holding strong charge after 5 years.
These were work laptops and I didn't baby them at all.
With that said, I wouldn't a buy cheapo Lenovo ($500) because it did fail on me completely. Dead.
With a cheap Lenovo the design and manufacturing quality is very low and failures much more common than in their professional models. As a Repair Cafe volunteer I've seen people bring in low-end Lenovos only 1-2 years old, that are literally falling apart, through normal use. The reality is there's really two Lenovo brands - the enterprise-grade one, making products designed for serviceability and durability. And there's the consumer-grade Lenovo, with products engineered to a very low price point. Other brands have this duality too. Caveat emptor.
x230 - replacement battery, screen died (easy replacement), handrest cracked, still usable
T460p - 5 years of light use, nothing
T470p - 3 years, nothing
Legion Y520 - keyboard stopped working partly, bought a replacement and noticed it's basically impossible to replace, then bought a second one, this time a complete top case - replacement was a chore, but fine
Dead Lenovo are very easy to fix, weirdly. I've had to fix both of mine. Imagine air quotes. You have to pull the battery cable and push the power button.
We have about 70 employees and giving them anything else than Apple laptops would probably be a disaster. Our support footprint is tiny in comparison with earlier years. The machines are built so well that we hardly have any failures.
I suppose some people have been unlucky with Apple hardware but it's maybe also due to the perceptions and that seemingly everyone (at least in IT and development) is using a Mac these days.
My MBPs usually have battery issues after 3 years of use, by then well beyond warranty period. They always charge for insane amount of money for replacing a battery, when I always turn to a third party repair shop for about 10% of the amount given by Apple geniuses.
If you have the butterfly keyboard MBP, complain about the keyboard being broken, and you may well get it replaced under the "extended repair programme" - since the battery is glued to the topcase you also get a new battery.
Sorry, that doesn’t pass the sniff test. I recently replaced the battery on my 2015 MBP. The local shop quoted around $250; Apple, $180 IIRC. It was a full top-case replacement due to Apple’s poor battery design, heavily discounted because it was a battery replacement. The local shop couldn’t compete with the discount.
Your local shop would be out of business here. The insane amount Apple asked for, ~$500, is indeed for a full top-case replacement, and they didn't mention any discount to me.
I mean, I have a mid-2015 MBP at home that only required a battery replacement, but otherwise works well. My iPhone 7 served me 5 years and was abandoned due to failing battery. We all have anecdotes.
You are lucky. I had problems with samsung, motorola and with the new "nokia" android phones, All probably solvable, but support is not their priority.
Apple was for a long time known here in Norway to refuse to follow the consumer protection laws, so they were the worst of the bunch. So bad that lots of big retailers stopped selling Apple products for years, because the retailers had to take the costs when Apple refused.
It's better now, but not better than others or even worth mentioning. If anything, I feel people now are familiar with Apples help because their stuff keep breaking. Like the prev gen MBP I had was a mess, only computer I've ever had to repair. And even multiple times.
In Norway (and most of EU I guess?) there's laws that goes beyond warranty. So for the first half year, they really have to prove you did something out of the ordinary to break your product. Apple is notorious for saying some sensor is triggered and therefore you misused the phone. But those sensors can triggered from using the phone in normal winter conditions..
(And then for the next 4.5 years the burden of proof isn't that strong, but they still have to fix or replace broken devices, not however long a producer's warranty claims)
My mom is starting some kind of personal vendetta because her 13 month Ipad just stopped functioning. The Apple store told her it's 'fried' and she needs to just buy a new one.
Sounds like it's out of the one-year warranty period. I think warranty periods for electronics should be longer, but I would also not expect replacement or repair for out of warranty devices, unless defective.
Indeed it is. I once bought a Sony phone for which Sony only offered 1 year warranty, but the store had to offer two (as per EU regulation).
The touchscreen started losing sensitivity on the edges (curved glass) after 13 months. The store made a bad decision carrying that phone model. They fixed/replaced it.
The UK has 6 (or 5 depending on part) years statutory consumer protection, and so didn't have to change anything when the EU brought in the 2 year period. I believe Ireland was in a similar position at the time.
We did end up changing stuff for the initial 6 month 'reversed burden of proof' protection
In New Zealand, you could claim that since the manufacturer will sell a 3 year warranty that the item should last for at least that long. The Consumer Guarantees Act overrules whatever the manufacturer says and states that a device should last for a reasonable amount of time. If it is more expensive, then it should last longer. If they won't repair or replace it, you can take them to the Disputes Tribunal where they aren't allowed to send a lawyer. It generally works quite well.
> Also, a bad USB charger should not kill a device.
Then you've not seen bad USB chargers. Of course a device that by design is pumping voltage could ruin whatever it is connected to - especially if the connected device is sensitive equipment.
I've seen a USB charger pumping -1 to 11 volts AC out the USB connector - it was fluctuating 6 volts in either direction. Of course, you need an oscolliscope to detect that as it's at 50 hertz (C plug) - on a regular voltmeter it looked like 5 v steady.
My $1500 Vizio TV just died 13 months into a 12 month warranty. They don't sell parts for TVs anymore, Vizio support just told me to trash it and buy a new one. Never again Vizio.
Assuming it's dead dead, it's probably a power supply or fuse issue. Pop it open and get the P/N on the P/S board and it should be findable. They're often conserved between models and across model years (and sometimes manufacturers).
Maybe not available through "Them", but "their" prices are usually atrocious.
Switched to an LG OLED TV. My brother has had the same one for 3+ years so hopefully it'll last me a while.
I've honestly never had a TV just randomly die on me before, which is why I never buy the extended warranties. But Vizio not selling parts for expensive TVs just doesn't sit well with me, hence the "never again".
If it's any consolation, I highly recommend LG due to my experience. Bought a 65 inch unit 3 years ago, threw away the box, and have since moved long distance 3 times without it. 3 times on a semi wrapped in a blanket, and the thing still works like day 1. I'm a fan.
I still remember when I bought it, I was choosing between it and a TCL. When I asked what the difference was, the guy banged on the back really hard of each. The TCL showed big white splotches when hit, the LG had no effect. He called it 'shielding', but I'm not versed enough to know if that's a thing.
Who remembers Macbook's 'Staingate'[1]. I had that and was refused service multiple times. I managed to get it repaired only after it became a big issue - there were many (thousands or more) affected customers who started making noise online - then Apple grudgingly announced free repairs of the screen. I was living with damaged screen for many months.
I remember it - but Apple did, thankfully, turn around and say it was an issue, and refunded anyone who paid for repairs before the announcement.
My Samsung Galaxy Note9 literally had a firmware update go out that, looking on Samsung's forums, caused calls to drop like flies completely at random. Once you updated to that firmware, there's no going back and no hardware replacement will fix the issue. There is absolutely no fix months later, no acknowledgement there is an issue, and no fix of any kind. We had to get an iPhone because you can't run a business when you are apologizing over email daily for a missed call.
Not saying Apple is great - but Samsung has objectively worse problems.
Counterpoint: I've spent less on my 4 phones over the last ten years than a single new iPhone would cost today, including replacing a couple screens and batteries myself. I'm coming up on time for a new phone, but the iPhone prices have been keeping pace with my cumulative device total price so far.
Multiple hours' drive to the nearest apple store, so they offer no timeline advantage for me
Didn't know about that model - wasn't on the telecom websites, but it is apparently available in Canada for $576, which is much better (only the price of my last ~2 phones). The cheapest phone I saw and compared with above was an iPhone 13 mini, at $976.
Doesn't Apple pull the exact same scam, except that instead of scratches and paint chips, they say "water damage" is why they're denying your warranty claim?
Had a 12.5 month old iPhone 12 mini die recently and used Apple's mail in repair service ($400.) Getting technician's notes out of them (needed for a credit card extended warranty claim) has been nigh impossible after spending hours trying to get that artifact. About 2 months in at this point and they've sent plenty of stuff; none of what I've asked for. It's equivalent to dealing with the USPS on a lost package claim.
But make sure you have your 2fa backup codes! I replaced two phones in a short period of time, and overlooked the 2fa backups the second time. It’s easy to do if you’re not expecting a replacement.
Not sure if others noticed this, but Google Authenticator now offers a bulk export of all the codes in your app, so that you can clone them in a single step on another device. This is welcome for me at least because I was saving backup copies of the original 2FA QR codes separately, and each time a new device I would have to scan them all in one by one.
That's why I've copied all of the 2FA codes from my phone to my iPad. You REALLY need some sort of redundancy to avoid a single-point-failure catastrophe.
I remember when I had my first-generation iPhone and it started to feel kind of hot during usage. I took it in to the Apple Store and the genius was a bit wobbly about it and he asked another genius and he said, "just replace it" and that was it.
Do they even do anything in store anymore? When I bring it in they usually scratch their head, wipe the device, and try and charge me $450 to have the laptop mailed to a facility where it will have its logic board swapped out.
Just $450? Pfft. 10 years back I had an issue with an overheating MacBook Pro (within warranty) and because they couldn't reproduce it with their tests they offered a replacement board for about 850€ (parts only). Turns out changing the thermal paste (by myself) solved the issue completely.
I can feel my blood boiling for you. In fact I'm in the market for a new phone and stories like this make me actively want to avoid Samsung. As companies get larger and larger they will tend to make choices that are suboptimal to consumers.
Cynical me says that Samsung is seeing above average warranty claims on these foldable phones. Thus they need to get them down so some manager somewhere decides that they will enforce the policies more strictly with small scratches and dents outright disqualifying claims. Lo and behold this reduces the warranty claims paid out but in the grand scheme of things completely demolishes any customer loyalty.
I wonder if author reached out via twitter or some other social media channel to have Samsung comment.
Also I have to think what Apple or Google would do. I'm pretty sure Apple would just straight up repair the phone with very few questions (that has been my experience). Google you'd have to go through a longer warranty process but my guess is they'd be more lenient and eventually you'd get a new or repaired phone.
As companies get larger, they tend to make choices that benefit individuals within the company, at the expense of the company at large.
Somebody was told to invent a new type of phone, something that will "wow" people. That's the flip phone.
Somebody was told that the warranty claims were coming in too fast, and need to be reduced.
Same reason people at Google keep launching new products. It doesn't make Google look good, it doesn't achieve Google's goals, it makes L5s promotable to L6s.
>I'm pretty sure Apple would just straight up repair the phone with very few questions
You were lucky, the reality is that sometimes Apple pretens an issue does not exist and only after a big action lawsuit is started they suddenly they become generous and offer to fix the problem. So the first people that had a bad experience before the lawsuits are in much smaller number and their experience is crushed by the rest that praise Apple for the generosity of fixing their mistakes after they are forced by external stuff.
You can't quantify customer loyalty like you can quantify warranty claims so you can burn the former to improve the latter, maybe even get a promotion for doing so, then move on and let someone else deal with the long term consequences.
It's sad but I've accepted that this is how most companies are today.
One way to avoid getting burned is to only buy what you actually need when you actually need it.
Youtubers and tech sites get devices for free, play with them for a week and give rave reviews. The rest of us have to live with the device for years worth of wear and tear. What could possibly go wrong with bendy screens?
They are an indirect promotional arm. YT phone "reviews" are as useful as a video game "review". They are well-timed promotional content, and they generally can't say anything truly bad or else they jeopardize early access to demo units.
It seems like he lives in Europe, so he should simply contest the rejection. Within the first 6 month (1 year?) the manufacturer has to prove that the failure was due to the customer. They can not simply say there is some scratches so we reject the claim. Also the ct magazine is a good place to contact as they have a column about these sort of cases.
Yeah, check your local law's implementation of 1999/44/EC and bring it back to the seller. The seller might urge you to try the manufacturer warranty because it makes their life easier, but ultimately they are responsible under EU law. If Samsung _is_ the seller, you can bring them to small claims.
I think the main thing, is that this is a device that you bought in the EU that failed within the first 6 months.
This is legally guaranteed, that within the first 6 months any defects are assumed to have existed at the time of delivery [0]. If samsung don't respect the warranty, issue a chargeback. Your bank will back you up and Samsung have no leg to stand on.
(Also, samsung really shouldn't be playing silly-buggers here, but I guess enough people capitulate, that it makes sense for them to do this.)
My concern with that these days is what if Samsung blocks his account? Now I’m not a Samsung customer but if I handed Google $1k and they gave me a dud I wouldn’t dare do a chargeback no matter what because the risk of loosing my Gmail and other services is too high. Same for Apple.
Consumers need more rights when it comes to termination of services that are borderline essential.
Dont do that. You have to speak to the merchant, as they are your legal contract partner and you can demand they fix it.
Not Samsung or your bank.
This is a horrible advice
You must not be a Google phone user, or if you are: you got lucky. I owned 4 Google phones and only the original metal-case-with-trackball Nexus 1 lasted over 18 months. It’s the only phone that I replaced due to obsolescence.
The one I managed to get repaired under warranty (Nexus 5 bootlooping death) lasted 1 week before dying the exact same way again. It look 2 weeks just to get it repaired.
I switched to iPhone. I can’t remember what number even though I’m typing on it because it doesn’t matter. It works as well today as the day I bought it. (Although I do miss Google’s keyboard)
I was just about to comment and say I was wondering the same thing because I am daily driving a Pixel 2 still, but may look to buy soon because of the flagging battery life and the lack of security updates. I was not aware Google Phone's had a reputation for aging off quickly since my brother is also in the same boat as me with his Pixel, is there someone who tracks phone reliability?
I also have a Pixel 2, which is still running fine except for battery life. I really like the dedicated fingerprint sensor on the back. It's been such a great feature that I'm shocked it's been dropped or replaced with in-display sensors in the newer models. IMHO, it beats Face ID which requires you to look at the device from the right angle.
I have a Samsung galaxy S4 mini from 2014. I am going to need to replace it only because 1) 3G is disappearing, 2) youtube decided my phone was too old. There's nothing actually wrong with the phone.
I was using Nexus 6 from 2014 in 2019. And honestly I would continue using it if its battery wasn't in abysmal state leading to throttling. Considered buying new old stock or trying to replace a battery in this one. N6 is a 32-bit only device, that's the primary (the only?) reason I switched to something else, it would limit software choice going forward.
It is not as good as it is on Android. I still have an iPhone, but this is the top thing that makes me consider switching back to Android. I will still probably buy another iPhone because of all the other good things about it. Still, I miss the Android keyboard choices.
Very similar to me, I went nexus 5 > 5x > pixel > pixel 2 after the 5/5x/p1 broke in different ways, but the Pixel 2 I used until it ran out of support and I was annoyed at having to replace a phone so quickly because it was fine for me, so I switched to a second hand iphone XS and it still works fine even though it's only 1 year older.
I doubt I'll ever buy an iPhone brand new (I go out of my way not to support the CCP) but until Pinephone and linux becomes a usable mobile OS I'll stick with the XS until it either dies or Apple stop supporting it in:
Which phone are you buying that lasts more? After two years the battery life nose dives, flash memory becomes slower, software updates become scarce. And by that time I usually have a broken screen.
Good thing I only spend 200€ every two years on the latest trustworthy moto g. Clean google experience, no bloatware, nice gesture actions.
A 1k€ phone would have to last 10 years to give comparable value, and I doubt it exists since battery and flash memory tech is the same no matter the price.
I've had a Samsung S8 for 4.5 years now, and it is still okay.
Yeah it shows that it is old. The battery and performance is worse than before, but it still lasts the day as I am not using it that hard. I have no legitimate _need_ to upgrade as it stands today.
I guess the frequency of upgrades quite heavily on usage, but I find upgrading every 2 years to be very often.
I believe the more you spend on a phone the more you're inclined to endure the performance degradation. With a cheap phone it's easier to let it go and buy a new one, so you always have a new, fast and updated device
I’m on an iPhone 8 here, works just as well as when it was new ~4.5 years ago. Battery may be at around 80% capacity (as experienced by me), received an iOS update a couple of days ago.
Edit to add: replaced a slim silicone cover once or twice, hardened glass screen protector 3 or 4 times.
FWIW my Pixel 4 is still going strong, haven't even thought of getting a replacement. My partner is on the previous Pixel 3 (released October 2018) and no complaints there either.
I started boycotting Samsung forever when I woke up one morning to the NFL app on my home screen on a Galaxy S6. Able to be disabled, but the fact that they'll install spam apps long after you've bought a device is really malicious.
+ the shitshow called Galaxy Store that you mandatory have to visit if you care about security updates always greets me with a dialog that suggests to install some game _and_ I have to opt-out for _every_ game.
I don't know any real world example were you can be forced to watch an ad before something broken gets fixed. That only works in the (virt.) environment of a quasi monopoly.
Absolutely agree, this was a red line for me as well. Coming with pre-installed crapware is one thing, but installing it during a security update is just malicious. I switched to a Google Pixel 4a with Calyx OS around a year ago and never regretted it even once. I mean -- what are they thinking about their userbase? They didn't just lose a customer they've gained an enemy.
And avoid their SSD's too with the the 980 Pro, Samsung has just changed the components but kept the same model number.
Samsung have removed the Elpis controller from the 980 PRO SSD and replaced it with an unknown one, and also removed any speed reference from the spec sheet.
Come on, seriously? That phone is at most 2 years old. It's not like the specs of that phone are in any way deficient; I guarantee you there is no app that you needed to run that couldn't run on that phone. Phones are resource intensive to manufacture - we should be aiming to keep them for 1/2 a dozen years or more. This mindset of replace with new and shiny "just because" [you're addicted to spending money] is bad for the planet.
Pardon my scepticism but how did the paint get chipped that badly without dropping the phone and why did the author of this article buy a case after owning it for one month?
I think it’s silly that they are using these chips and scratches as a reason to refuse replacing a faulty screen though.
Also, in case anyone did not hear the news, Samsung's earbuds have been recently causing severe ear infections in some people from brief exposure - only 15-20 minutes with them was enough to give an Android Central reviewer an ear infection.
Apparently Samsung was using Nickel directly on the skin, and an acrylic alternative called acrylate that also has been known to cause irritation. 2 irritating substances, directly on the skin, in one pair of earbuds. Madness.
Where was it bought? Sending it back to Samsung may mean that you wanted them to cover it with their own warranty, unless you bought it directly from them and explicitly told them you want to have them fix the issue in accordance to the "Gewährleistungsrecht".
Having the seller (instead of the manufacturer) deal with this issue explicitly under the two-year "Gewährleistungsrecht", where the first six months it is up to the seller to prove that you are responsible for the damage (since 2022 it's now 1 year, if bought in 2022), may yield a better result.
I can't imagine having the phone in the pocket together with a grain of sand would qualify as neglectful behavior? My phone has very tiny scratches probably because of sand in the pocket, but this is to be expected and not a problem to the phone, it can handle this without problems. So having phones in the pockets together with a grain of sand should be no issue. Is there such a warning in the manual?
I've reviewed this and many other foldable phones in the last three years.
I will be extremely surprised if foldable phones will succeed in the next 5 years.
They all give me very strong 3D TV vibes, in terms of how much companies want them to succeed, and how much they're actually not solving any problem in a way that doesn't require heavy consumer-side compromises.
Another good question to ask to assess the potential success of consumer products trends is "has Apple produced any of these yet?"
Folding LCDs have been a solution in search of a problem for years. Maybe they looked cool in some ID rendering or model, but I’ve never understood why anyone would want one other than the novelty factor. And as has already been pointed out, they’re destined for failure at the fold.
Yes, twice the screen, but also double the thickness, at least for the LCD and some supporting components. Figure on at least a few mm extra (LCD+touchscreen+case). I don't know of any material which can fold 180 degrees over and over, and not eventually succumb to fatigue. Maybe within the expected lifetime of a phone it will work under test conditions, but unless there is serious margin in the robustness, I would expect some to die at the fold in the real world, and that will never be good publicity.
IMO foldable phones are a throwback to planned obsolescence. The mechanical wear of the folding and unfolding is going to win and you are going to find yourself with a new phone in a relatively short time.
Every iPhone I’ve had has succumbed to either the home button failing (which requires a completely new main board to fix) or the lithium battery swelling to the point the case bursts open. My current model has no home button and has lasted the longest, and is a few months away from its third battery - I have no intention of replacing it until Apple brings back Touch ID or eliminates the notch.
My wife has had the same Samsung phone for almost fifteen years, but it fails consistently every year and she has it replaced under warranty (how many of those things did they make that there is a two decade supply of replacements?) She gets a fresh unit with a fresh battery every year and runs it until it fails, then she spends about four hours on the phone with clueless support techs from Samsung and Tmobile, they point fingers at each other for a while, then finally agree to replace the unit. Usually it is the screen that fails but once she lost a bunch of irreplaceable photos when the encryption key corrupted, leaving her with nothing but a memory card full of encrypted blobs. Otherwise she has become really good at migrating to new phones when they arrive.
Ironic that you find that the frequently actuated button is the prime source of failure but refuse to adopt the newer models that require no button actuation, no?
The home button wasn’t removed until iPhone X, prior to that your only option was to replace the phone with another or subsequent model with the same button.
I assume the whole reason Apple removed the button was because the economics of replacing the main board over a two cent button didn’t work out - even when the people bought warranties. (Applecare)
It was successful, I’ve not had a unit failed because I kept pressing on the same part of the screen all day for years. Knock on wood.
Apple removed the "button" with the iPhone 6 in 2014. The "button" became capacitive and I haven't heard of any those failing. So they haven't had failure-prone button for 8 years now.
Also in your previous comment you stated it required a completely new main board to fix but that is false. It did require complete disassembly, but the button was replaceable.
What 15 year old phone could your wife possibly still be using? Is it her main phone? I can’t even imagine rocking. 10 year old phone like the iPhone 5
Good enough I suppose. The camera on my iPhone takes better pictures by every metric but she swears they don’t look right to her, and she insists on taking photos either either her camera or with both. I am not sure what will happen when she can no longer get that model. I guess none of her pictures will look right.
That's why, at this point, I only buy mobile devices that meet milspec or are otherwise ruggedized. A mobile device that doesn't look like it would be right at home on a battlefield or a construction site is just not for me.
Why is "shininess" an attribute at all that people are willing to trade off for the hassle of dealing with mechanical failure? Probably because, at the time when they make their purchasing decision, they are too willing to take it on faith that a manufacturer makes sane choices around tradeoffs between looks and likeliness of mechanical failure.
Well: They don't. Stories like the above just show how easy it is for manufacturers to extricate themselves from liability. I had that experience some 15 years ago, when I was dealing with a phone that came down with a bad case of cracked-screen after two weeks of normal use. They just made a blanket statement that a cracked screen is always the customer's fault. And when I say they, I don't even mean a repair technician tasked with making those sorts of determinations all day long, but the process seemingly was just a pimply-faced kid in a retail outlet just saying that to any customer who came in with a cracked screen.
I had a horrible experience with Samsung plasma TV about 7 years ago. TV cracked in front of my eyes - it went from completely fine to having a huge 'spider web' crack right in the middle.
Samsung support claimed it was physical damage; After extensive research i found multiple other people who had the same problem. These TVs were extremely fragile, a slight impact could cause a tiny non-visible breakage; And then due to the heat generated during normal operation this tiny breakage could progressively turn into a cracked screen.
At the time, Samsung's determination seemed like an extreme injustice... i filed multiple complaints with consumer protection services. Samsung people reached out and after a few weeks of 'passionate' phone conversations they agreed to refund the cost of repairs provided that i sign off that it was 'indeed' physical damage (obviously i did that).
I never bought a Samsung product after that; But that TV still works :).
As for phones, i am still using iphone SE 1st gen. Simplicity, beauty, and absolutely perfect one handed operation on this phone has not been matched still. Which tells you everything you need to know about phone 'innovation'.
Few years ago I stopped trying to buy most advanced bleeding edge top to the line phones and go instead with more basic, cheaper model. Makes my life much less stressful. I know if it broke I can quickly replace it for few hundred bucks.
A folding phone broke, and Samsung wouldn't fix it.
"What they’re doing currently is forcing their early-adopter customers to bear the risks of the new technology. With a device like this the policy should be leaning much more towards the customer’s side. A foldable warranty repair should be rejected only when it is extremely obvious that there was damage caused by the user."
Not surprised. My main beef with Samsung is poor software quality. The malware/adware etc on the Samsung phone I bought was buggy, slow, and even simple actions like hitting the home button was painfully slow.
I "upgraded" to a google pixel, with less ram, and a slower CPU. Felt WAY faster, more responsive, the home button was MUCH faster, and generally much nicer to use. No extra ads, no notifications of streaming NFL games, no partnerships with cell phone companies with value added services, etc.
The pixels by contrast are clean, simple, and don't show ads other than using various apps/browsers (by choice) that show ads. I pay for youtube red/premium/music, so no ads there. Netflix is also excellent at showing what you want, when you want, with no extra trailers, ads, etc.
My Samsung "TV" draws almost 40W of power when it's turned "off" - I have to physically cut the power to it. There's also no way to disable Bluetooth. Spyware seems to be the fait accompli for Samsung.
I've had similar experience with a few manufacturers before including Apple, Dell and Samsung. The repair technicians are trained to spot even the tiniest scratch on your phone and then void your warranty (in Dell's case the technician himself probably forgot to screw one of the screws back in probably as it was missing a screw the second time I sent it back for repair...
Its ironic that scratches can void the warranty of a product even if the damage has no relation to said scratch. I guess its just big corps milking every dollar out.
Agreed. Samsung’s customer service is awful. I dealt with them years back for an RMA; don’t remember why. Worst experience ever. They also have no issues with holding your device for weeks at a time, even if it’s your only device.
It’s not just Samsung. Basically everyone has craptacular customer service. CS is like tech: extremely useful towards keeping people around, and the first thing to get gutted by corporate budget.
For anything not Apple, I can’t recommend third-party warranty enough. Shit breaks? Insurer pays up if OEM doesn’t play ball. Not your problem.
We're not buying Samsung devices again for a completely different reason.
We got a home remodel, with Samsung appliances because they looked decent and were priced reasonably enough for what we wanted. Mainly, a Samsung Refrigerator, Microwave, Stove and Dishwasher. Around the same time we also bought a Galaxy Note9 smartphone.
2 years later, only the Refrigerator and Microwave have survived. The Dishwasher broke after a year, and was replaced with a new Samsung which also broke in a year, and we replaced it with Bosch. The Stove's burners just stopped working and couldn't be fixed by the repairman, so that was replaced (with a non-Samsung one).
As for the surviving appliances, Samsung had the ingenuity to build the Microwave's control electronics inside the microwave door, the thing most likely to get slammed, so we're babying the microwave or otherwise that would have almost certainly died from that idiotic decision. Even though the refrigerator is still standing, the "stainless steel" is apparently so thin it's covered in dents from when children left drawers open next to it, something stainless steel should be resistant to.
Lastly, the Note9 after a year became slower than a snail crawling up a rock (crashed constantly opening even basic apps like Outlook) and no battery replacement or factory reset could revive it. Also began dropping calls randomly and constantly, and apparently it was a botched firmware update that randomly affected people with absolutely no fix. Replaced with iPhone 13 Pro.
We have a Samsung fridge and the ice maker has a major unfixable design flaw (gets jammed with ice). One of the cables in the fridge also has a known design flaw.
I guess we should be lucky our stuff isn’t catching on fire like most Samsung products do (at least when they are not supposed to be).
It's not just Samsung though, you can run into problems with anybody. When we built our house my wife's company was doing a cross promotion with GE, so we were able to get a good discount on GE appliances and we loaded up. The dishwasher, microwave, washer, dryer, garbage disposal, and water softener are long gone. The stove has been a constant source of frustration, and the refrigerator has parts that haven't worked in years. I can assure you we will never own another GE appliance.
That makes me wonder if the Koreans living in Korea itself have the same experience with Samsung, or if its "KDM" products are built to a different standard than export ones.
I have never had a good experience with a Samsung product. From TVs to appliances they all seem to have something go wrong within the first 1-2 years. Sometimes it is minor and I can live with it, but it is everything Samsung I have ever owned. When I Google whatever the problem is it is common and there appears to be a near 100 percent faliure rate of the particular component.
As a company I can only conclude they have poor quality control or do not do rigorous long term testing.
Honestly I'm pretty sure I won't ever buy another Samsung phone too, after my last experience. I bought an S20 Ultra after a price drop, it was still a very pricey phone. The camera was one of the best at the time and that sold it to me. I also bought the official Samsung hardened leather case.
The phone was a large glass-sandwich (AFAICT all their flagships still are), and within a week the glass on the side and a little on the back had cracked, just through being carried around in my pocket, in its official case the whole time.
I had a hell of time getting a refund out of Amazon ("We'll see what the manufacturer's warranty says" "no, this is your issue, you are the retailer and you'll give me a full refund because you sold me something that's clearly not fit for purpose")
Why are they selling things which are so expensive and so fragile?
I've gone over to the dark side now (iPhone 12 pro) for the first time, and while the software stack is not markedly superior on either side (IMHO), the hardware is far better designed and much more robust.
I stopped buying Samsung stuff years ago. I have never encountered a brand who products have consistently given me problems like theirs do.
It's not just phones. I've had their TVs (old CRT and flat panels) fail within a year of purchase. A camera with a zoom lens that didn't work out of the box. A microwave which only displayed 99:99 on the display and wouldn't turn on. A washing machine where the hoses to the outflow pump came loose and flooded our kitchen. Luckily I didn't have to deal with Samsung directly and sent all that stuff back to the retailer to sort out, but I did learn a lesson.
As for their phones, they just seem to be a little bit more delicate than other brands. Things like the glass seemingly being easier to break, charging ports getting loose and not allowing for a good connection and physical buttons that just fail.
I know other peoples experiences will be different, but for me I have decided to never again buy Samsung.
To lower smartphone prices in India, Samsung fills it phone with samsung + non-samsung app bloatware, installs 4-5 shitty social media and game apps after every minor update(they call it security update). Has ads allover the place, in the lockscreen in the settings.
The phone feels like how cancer would look like if it was made into a phone.
I'm considering a "rugged phone" as my next one. They seem great. A bit chunky, sure, but more battery, better value & more durable. I don't need a paper-thin or foldable-screen phone. I'm a bit surprised how little attention this category of phones gets.
Really? The entire category? Just because they're too niche for the manufacturers to bother with issuing updates for? Surely they have to release security updates for some period of time, though?
It's an ugly, over-engineered device. Not surprising that a device with so many moving parts is prone to failure. The whole point of smartphones was to reduce visible complexity as much as possible. Steve Jobs' innovation was consistently about removing unnecessary things; keyboards, padding around the edges, ports, hole grid for speakers... On the other hand, this foldable trend appears to be about adding back complexity which yields no benefits... What is the benefit of this foldable screen? There are none! If anything, it will make it easier to drop the phone and the fold looks horrible and it's fragile.
WTF is going on with tech/engineering sector? Everything seems to be getting worse. No common sense.
I'm going to buy the Samsung A33 phone when it's released. I've had the Samsung A5 for several years, and the build quality has been good for the price, and it has retained its battery with daily use. The only issue is that is doesn't receive security updates any more, so I will install Lineage OS on it when I receive the new device.
I've owned a few Android phones and Samsung seem to be the best build quality. Although I believe this went down after the A5, as they stopped releasing IP68/IP67 (dust and waterproof rating) rated midrange phones, until I believe the A33, which will be the next one.
I would never consider buying a flip phone with a single screen, as that just looks like asking for trouble to me.
I bought a Samsung TV in 2008, my friend liked my TV and bought the exact same one several months later. 7 years later, my TV died. Screen only showed the red channel of any picture. Like clockwork several months later my friend had the exact same issue.
My Samsung refrigerator has been the biggest disappointment I’ve ever had from a major appliance. It constantly freezes up. I had it repaired multiple times under warranty, and it just kept doing it.
My Samsung washing machine lasted several weeks past the warranty.
My early experiences with Samsung were so positive, my camera circa 2003 was great, as well as all the dumb-phones, and my first smart phone, a Galaxy S, but something changed. They’re not the quality they once were.
I find the Note's stylus terrific - and I find the iEcosystem does not fit me. Are there any non-Samsung devices with a stylus? Are there any good third-party stylii? I need something for dragging across the screen smoothly primarily, but also used for tapping.
I once bought an "active stylus" from ebay for about $20 that was terrific, but it failed within a year and I've been unable to repair it. It's not available anymore, but I've tried other active stylii and been disappointed. Also, that fact that the Note stylus is built into the phone means that it is always available - that is not the case with any other stylus.
My Samsung TV is not connected to the internet, but every night about 2am it turns the panel on. Its black, but glowing. I have to turn it off at the wall if I want it to stay off. I'm convinced its trying to shorten its own lifespan.
Latest pixel phones are even worse. Every update is a nightmare. With one update, Bluetooth wont work, next update I wont get signal etc. I don't want to be in the Apple ecosystem but I am forced to. At least it works all the time.
Google is becoming incompetent. It's not only their phones.
Currently they fail to fix their speech services for over a month. Doesn't update the language over mobile networks and drowns batteries while waiting/trying -- no matter the settings, restarts, Cache cleans. While other apps on those phones update properly over the same network.
Dropped from a 4* rating to 1.5 (s. Play Store)
Major changes were "changed name", "new icon", which were a clear warning sign to me -- now they can add "botched network handling"
For some reason S10+ is the best phone I've ever owned. It's still updating - got Android 12. First thing I've done - disabled bixby entirely. No issues at all. Replaced broken screen once, not a Samsung fault.
I am very happy with my S10 Lite as well, also received Android 12 recently. With some PC software it's possible to uninstall Bixby and the other bloatware even without rooting.
Years ago I worked in customer support for samsung for a bit. Yeah, sounds about right, I'm not gonna buy customer electronics or household appliances from them either. Don't get me started on planned obscolescence.
(Components like SSDs or the LEDs (different part of conglomerate) are fine probably, can't say about the submarines)
Since OPs pictures had German notes:
Just ask the merchant, he has to fix your stuff, (even if foldable phones are stupid), Samsung sends you away because their warranty is voluntary in the first place and - I believe - just there to confuse people.
Its the whole GD tech industry. Its been a race to the bottom on many fronts combined with constantly seeking ways to drive margins higher. Gone are the quality product for a fair price mindset.
PS, I thought everyone knew the foldable devices weren't ready for primetime?
I swore off LG products about 15 years ago, after a similar experience with some of the monitors, but ended up with a LG fridge (which failed) and a TV, and various monitors full of LG parts. These big tech conglomerates are hard to get away from. Its part of the reason I cheer on any competition in some of these spaces, no matter where it comes from.
OP simply bought into new technology (even if this is a 2nd gen device), and pays the price. A such often used device with moving parts is in constant danger, and I'd wager any major manufacturer would react similarly.
You could call out Samsung on this issue, but outright trumpet "never buy any device again" based on your edge case is just sour clickbait. Samsung - despite myriads of issues with bloatware, OSS-hostility, half-assed and then abandoned features - is still a major innovator, has a solid product line, and currently the only company that can globally compete with Apple.
Samsung is straight laying in they products, just look at this range hood: NK36N9804VB/UR
on Samsung page you'll find that it have wifi build in, and this is just a lie.
unfortunately I found out that after purchase, but you might check instructions, and you'll find that it contains Bluetooth client, and you supposed to have their wifi enabled cooktop to with it would connect and get connectivity from there.
For me it's the same as claiming that your eg. computer comes with 128gb of ram because you can buy some sticks and put them there
Adding onto this; Their 360 cameras are rendered useless after an upgrade last year. They havent fixed them ever since. I am talking about a camera from 2017, that is basically completely useless now.
Samsung probably won't care, no matter how popular this story gets. Samsung is the de facto "Not Apple" device. They will have customers flocking to them. They don't need to do anything. They just need to stay a step ahead of LG (lol) and Motorola (double lol). It's hard to overemphasize how big their moat is. If you look at a list of "Top Android Phones" Samsung is always in spot 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, etc. (they lose a few positions to Google sometimes).
I don’t know; some companies are forgiving with repairs; my experiences; Apple (anything I sent them the past 20 years was fixed or replaced without any questions asked) and Fujitsu (I used to swear by Lifebooks as the customer service was brilliant). Worst I had were MS (blaming me for dropping on a factory faulty Surface; not once but twice in a row) and Samsung (also blaming me). Guess some train their staff to be customer friendly and the other to prevent repairs?
If you make a warranty claim, it's no answer to say there are small scratches or dents. Small scratches and dents are normal and phones should be built to withstand them.
I guess the very definition of Early-Adopter is that you bear the brunt of the product development costs :-D So it is not so much Samsung's fault, but you wanting to be an Early Adopter without having to bear any of the risks that come with that.
I mean, foldable screen, of course that will break quickly. It's actually astonishing that it survived for 3 months, that's pretty cool tech.
If you want safety, get an iPhone and Apple Care. They should be foldable in a few years time.
I bought a Samsung Flip 5G, it is 1.5 years old now, and no issues with the display. The close sensor failed, which mean that my call kept going after I hung up, but Samsung repaired it under warranty.
I was actually surprised someone would never buy Samsung again for their hardware as they are reasonably good quality and design. Their software on the other hand is pretty awful and the main reason I will look at other brands when this phone needs to be replaced.
Same happened to my cousin. Her screen broke from the fold. Samsung says no warranty, since "it's caused by a 2mm scratch in the hinge". That scratch was caused by a bump into metal while she was carrying it by hand, it wasn't hard.
In fact, the phone I'm writing from has had much stronger hits, all to the corners and my aluminum is more marked than hers, but my screen is intact. (Mine is an LG G7, for the record).
>That scratch was caused by a bump into metal while she was carrying it by hand
Not to defend samsung, because foldable phones are a flimsy bad idea, but it's to be expected that bumps that wouldn't damage other phones (including phones that Samsung makes like the galaxy series) might damage the folders : the folders are made with a plastic screen, and on the recent models, a very thin, fragile layer of glass underneath the plastic. If you buy one, you really should have the expectation that it is going to fail at the slightest mishandling. You can even feel the fold when you touch the area, it doesn't take a major shock to cause damage there.
I will buy another device from them, like a phone or a watch, if they guarantee in writing that it will leak all over my floor daily like their damned fridge.
Samsung support is atrocious. Had a similar issue with my S9 phone where the power button suddenly got jammed and couldn't be released. They sent it back with the exact same reasoning: "Caused by physical damage". Well yeah, I physically press the button to turn the phone on and off, what do you expect. I don't understand how they are still so popular when they never help you with anything.
I won't ever buy Samsung products as well, but not because of their phones. I've had several Samsung TVs, a Samsung Washer / Dryer and a Samsung Fridge Freezer. All of those have had issues and Samsung went to great pains to avoid their responsibilities under NZ law to fix those issues.
They're an innovative company but their customer service sucks and I will never give them another cent.
I've been through similar experience, but with LG. By similar I mean no repair in service for a phone under warranty. This has happened 15 years ago or more, but since then I'm avoiding all LG products. My stance hasn't changed in years; in fact now I'm more convinced in my position after hearing anecdotes from people I know about their service troubles with LG.
I bought a 49" monitor from them in January. A week later, I had two lines of dead pixels. I'm still trying to get them to repair it and customer service has been the worst. Moreover, the warranty online was incorrect. They said they would fix it but they haven't yet. It's been weeks. A nice $1k spent on a very frustrating experience.
Samsung is one crap of a company. Phones are full of bloatware- my wife had a couple and I would never buy one. We also have a Samsung TV,which is kind of decent on its own,but I had to enable special menu on it, so I could disable 'samsung only Bluetooth devices' on it, as it was essentially telling me I need Samsung headphones to connect to it.
All this is just making me more and more worried - after swearing off Samsung (many years ago due to my Note 3 motherboard dying and them quoting a crazy repair cost), I gave in and recently bought a bunch of Samsung devices - S21 FE phone, Galaxy 4 watch and an A-series tablet - all have been working very well. Let us see how things go with this batch.
Foldable tablet (Fold3) is great. I can't have 8inch tablet on my pocket without folding technology. I'll never back to normal phones/tablets even if it's fragile. I don't know foldable phone (Flip3) worth to trade off durability, weight, and battery. Anyway foldable screen is early technology so insurance is mandatory IMO.
Samsung TVs are worse. Their OS is something app makers are not willing to support anymore. Twitch just stopped working. This is something I don't expect from a $1k TV bought just 20 months ago.
I wish someone makes just TV panel with ton on inputs and outputs. I am happy to plug in Sonos soundbar and Apple TV to make it work and make it "smart".
I posted a comment that goes some way to explaining this elsewhere[0].
The short answer is that tizenOS is crap, and the samsung engineers I worked with to build smart TV applications were crap. The only way that anything gets built on that quagmire is the herculean effort of a lot of developers (NOTE: my info is 5.5 years old, so that may have changed)
Twitch is a bad example, they are owned by Amazon who sells their own TVs and they dropped their Roku app after Amazon bought them presumably to try to get people to buy their Fire sticks instead.
As far as I know you won't see Twitch on any built in TV os other than android and amazon's version of android. That's hardly Samsungs fault.
> I wish someone makes just TV panel with ton on inputs and outputs.
Search for „digital signage display“, you might find something that fits your need. Have to leave consumer space and the pricing that comes with it though.
One person had one issue issue with a single repair ticket. And then amongst a site of hundreds of thousands of users, some also put their single issues in the comments. So what? We could do this with any major tech company. And we do. It's not enough to change my behavior. I want to see the data.
This is why sometimes it's worth it to get the protection plan/insurance. Sometimes tech just fails, and if it's out of the manufacturers warranty often if it can't be repaired for any reason they send you a replacement or the money for a replacement. Amazon offers such plans.
That cannot be stressed enough: no stock Android is a pain (at least if coming from there)
E.g. more or less bound to their camera app, my automatic sync with Google photos isn't working because they want me to use _their_ gallery. Only when I start Google's photo app does a sync start.
Repeating explicitly: that's preventing that pictures are automatically backuped to the cloud! -- too me, that's preventing the main selling point of paying a lot of money for a phone with a decent camera
And: why would I switch every service to the crappy Samsung equivalent?
I was shopping for a new monitor recently, and I considered 3 different models from Samsung, and all 3 had so many complaints from users indicative of serious QA issues in at least their monitor division. I hope they sort their issues out, their products on paper at least, are compelling.
My regular samsung cell phone has a button to mark as spam, but only for text messages which are regular billing statements, never for real spam.
My google phone before it was awesome at marking spam; samsung just fails. No more samsung phones if they don't figure that out.
My 65” curved Samsung TV started showing purple clouds on the LCD backlight a couple months after the warrenty expired. Never again, I don’t associate Samsung with high quality products anymore.
Other family members with Samsung appliances like fridge, drier and washer have had similar issues.
I have a 65" flat Samsung TV that I'm mostly happy with. But every once in a while, maybe after a couple of months, the video will start flaking out. Knowing it has a computer inside, I just do the classic thing to fix a computer - reboot it. I unplug it for a minute then plug it back in again, and it's good for another couple of months. Simply turning it off doesn't work.
Install https://calyxos.org/ on that Pixel 4 and purchase a moment case + lens and you have a much upgraded phone for free that is a lot more secure and private and much better at portraits.
It is unfortunate (and much more) that this purchaser is not being treated well.
I am mostly an early adopter (sometimes joking that I refuse to use software past the alpha stage)... But a foldable screen? I am deeply skeptical that this will be reliable anytime in the next two decades.
samsung TVs have the worst behavior when connected to a computer. Every once in a while, you get a screen that appears as if there's no signal, but instead it's asking you to "configure". But there's nothing to "configure", except to select that the HDMI is connected to a "PC". If you don't do that, there's no way to have a stable, full picture. If you do it, it deliberately limits you to two picture settings presets. The settings details menu often doesn't come up - you have to perform about 12 navigational actions to be able to control brightness etc. And this kind of crap goes on and on and on and on and on
I would double check with your credit card company to see if there is any recourse. For example, a lot of American Express cards give you an additional 1 year warranty. You can wait until the Samsung warranty ends and file a claim.
I achieved the same conclusion on 2010 after buying Samsung Galaxy S. It was a terrible device with awful support. This was specially bad since it was supposed to be a premium device.
Since then, the only thing I will buy from Samsung are TV's
As a consumer samsung TVs seem fine. Having looked under the hood, and having worked building apps for smart TVs (and collaborating with samsung engineers), samsung were some of the worst people that we worked with, and it's a miracle that any engineers can be bothered to build anything for tizen OS.
Among all of our partners samsung were easily the worst. LG had fantastic devs, I never worked with the android TV folks, but the OS was solid and easy to develop for. All the mediatek chipsets were all straightforward, just "here's the sdk" and go, it's only samsung that was a madenning morasses of kludgey code and arcane build systems.
Samsung won't admit their garbagephones are irrepairable. The repair cost on foldables is ridiculously high. If you want something compact and fancy, buy yourself a flip-phone. There were a few 4G ones, even from samsung :)
Avoid keeping it at your desk.. it will keep on reminding you the negative things happened with you.. and it will bring further unwanted mental fustration.. if you want, post pic of it on their social media handles..
This is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek answer, but if you want a foldable phone with a modicum of control over its software, get a Nokia 2720 Flip instead (running KaiOS, based on Mozilla's failed Boot2Gecko).
I'm plenty happy with my Samsung phones, but truth be told, the first thing is that I slap LineageOS on them. Also I'm definitely not an early adopter, my latest purchase is an S9.
I got the iPhone 13 mini at launch. Literally has no scratches even after several drops of 3-4 feet with no case. Has the best build quality of any device I've ever owned.
The paint chips themselves are small and are not very damaging to the phone, but getting the paint chipped like that probably means he dropped the phone.
According to the article, it wasn't in a case for the first month, but more importantly, the magnitude of the damage is what makes the Samsung assessment remarkably suspect. Certainly seems like a really bad experience with Samsung.
yea... when thinking about buying this foldable model the rejection was always caused by an intrinsic fear of having to rely on Samsung's customer attention and technical fixing once again... Their terrible service makes u rely on external, non-official technicians every. single. time.
"’ll not give a single penny to that company, ever again. To make sure I don’t change my mind, I framed the phone, including the warranty repair rejection email to have on my desk to remind me of this forever"
That's some serious dedication to keep yourself feeling that unhappy, hateful feeling for a very long time.
i am with you. that's ridiculous and inexcusable on samsung's part. thank you for documenting and posting this. i am following suit. no more samsung for me. their reputation has been declining anyway.
I banned Samsung product from my house for a decade (2004-2014). Samsung product is always giving me the crap quality feel. I now unbanned it to twst drive some of thei innovations. Their S21+ is quite good. S22 Ultra is so complicated, I am not sure it will last 1-2 years. I give their folds easy pass as I know their screen won't last daily usage. Just google it. I missed Nokia. I will never forgive that Elop guy who stopped Nokia going Android. We all would have incredible phone by now, instead of crap quality with feeble experimental tech.
For example, they take screenshots of what you watch on your Samsung Televisions!
Don't believe me? Take it from them: https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-... and https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/insights/
You're not their customer, you're the product.
Additionally, Samsung have a habit of releasing forced updates that almost-but-not-entirely brick their TVs, slowing them down to molasses. They do this right before the next model becomes available for purchase.
Last but not least, a colleague worked there as a consultant, and his stories of their lax IT security were nearly unbelievable. Even though they spy on you like Google or Facebook, they are not like a FAANG when it comes to protecting your private info! They've been hacked for sure, probably by multiple nation state actors. Whatever you watch or do with their TVs is being relayed to the US, Russians, Chinese, or whomever. Assume that nothing you do with a Samsung device or Samsung software is remotely secure or safe.
They're a slimy company made up of unscrupulous people trying to squeeze every last drop out of every rock.
Don't give them your money. There are many other companies with much better track records.