> best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia
why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people?
I don't understand this reasoning and have even heard it among some of my ultra-religious friends or extended family members. None of them has any skin in the game other than steep gas prices and lot of fear, so they just parrot "war is bad please stap!". But none of them contributes how that would impact the people. If you force them to comment it always turns out to be a trolley-problem that they have pulled the lever on for others: with silly arguments like we must do it because "claiming 100K dead people is still better than 10MM".
And this is where this hypothesis gets hairy because that decision is easier to make for others but a lot harder to say: "I and my partner with 2 toddlers will volunteer to be in the pool of those who die."
I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring. Luckily this is only a hypothetical scenario. Sure I'd never recover from it emotionally or psychologically but it is what I would do. This is obviously flippant and hypothetical but no better way to illustrate the hypocrisy at play here.
> why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people?
First, the people of Ukraine are free to decide to do what they think is best and "we", as in the West, are free to decide to do what we think is best. Those things do not need to coincide.
Secondly, two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight. All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees. So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish.
>two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight.
Mostly women, children, and the elderly. All Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving the country.
>All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees
2 million is far from a majority of Ukrainians. I don't know if this includes the number of people held up at border crossings, and doubt it includes those waiting for transportation. But it's still unlikely the majority, even if counting those groups.
>So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish.
They tell us. Right before the invasion, very few Ukrainians wanted to join Russia[0]. Another poll[1] conducted last week showed:
>>Only 11 per cent of Ukrainians agreed “if I could leave Ukraine safely tomorrow for another country I would.” Nearly seven in 10 (69 per cent) strongly disagreed. Only one in 20 (five per cent) of those aged 65 or over said they would leave if they could.
And:
>>Indeed, 67 per cent said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further seven per cent saying they were already doing so. 85 per cent of men and 63 per cent of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.
How many of those two million are children and mothers, who want to take care of their children? That doesn't necessarily mean those mothers want Ukraine to surrender (on the terms disallowing Ukraine to join NATO or EU).
Aside from that, while 2 million refugees is a lot, it's still very far from a majority in a country of 45 million people.
There is a dead (why?!) sibling comment: most of the refugees are women and children. Male Ukrainian nationals between 18 and 60 years old aren’t allowed to leave the country.
> I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring.
The Russian army has no interest in harming your family. It wants to achieve a set of political aims using violence, and to achieve those aims they are perfectly willing to harm your family. So it's those aims you need to make up your mind about, while considering the possible harm to your family that you will likely be unable to stop.
The Russian army has interest in harming their families in order to achieve their political goals, that include harming their families further.
I also need to remind you, that even Ukraine's combatants that would be deemed non-civilians were forced to fight by the invasion, and are therefore also innocent, and are also "families".
why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people?
I don't understand this reasoning and have even heard it among some of my ultra-religious friends or extended family members. None of them has any skin in the game other than steep gas prices and lot of fear, so they just parrot "war is bad please stap!". But none of them contributes how that would impact the people. If you force them to comment it always turns out to be a trolley-problem that they have pulled the lever on for others: with silly arguments like we must do it because "claiming 100K dead people is still better than 10MM".
And this is where this hypothesis gets hairy because that decision is easier to make for others but a lot harder to say: "I and my partner with 2 toddlers will volunteer to be in the pool of those who die."
I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring. Luckily this is only a hypothetical scenario. Sure I'd never recover from it emotionally or psychologically but it is what I would do. This is obviously flippant and hypothetical but no better way to illustrate the hypocrisy at play here.
Edit: The only part I agree is the rest of the world will be massively hurt by it too. Egypt, Tunesia, Yemen, etc are totally screwed as it's the biggest consumer of UA/RU grain https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/w...