>"march 11" which is how we say dates in English anyway

I think every time this topic comes up I come across someone with this misconception - usually from a country that celebrates the 4th of July.

So I agree with your point that the way dates are said varies. But your example isn't very good. That's just the name of the holiday, and should not be used to infer anything else.

I think you're missing the point. In the UK, for example, 2/2 is "the second of February", not "February second".

I understand the point entirely. I said I agree with it.

But at the same time, "Fourth of July" should not be used to infer anything about how Americans say dates. It doesn't help prove that both orders are used for dates.

In the real world, some people say day-month and some say month-day, and the holiday is called "Fourth of July". In a counterfactual world where everyone switched to month-day, the holiday would still be called "Fourth of July". So you can't use "Fourth of July" to demonstrate what people actually use for dates.

I'm not saying Americans say dates like that, I'm saying it's a reason they might consider that other people, or Americans once-upon-a-time, say dates like that.

> I'm saying it's a reason they might consider that other people, or Americans once-upon-a-time, say dates like that.

Once upon a time yes.

So that makes it sort of a reason to think those are still possible, but equally validly it acts as a reason to say nobody does that anymore.

So overall it's entirely reasonable to ignore such ambivalent evidence/"evidence".

Nth of month (with month sometimes elided) is most definitely standard English.

It was a facetious way to refer to the USA, I believe. No other country, AFAIK, uses MM-DD-YYYY (except (former) US possessions).

"The 4th of July" is the name of a holiday that happens on July 4th, a day after July 3rd and a day before July 5th.

Or on the 4th of July, to me.