Pretty much every other major developed country operates like this. Here in South Korea for example filing taxes is as simple as logging into some government portal, verifying that the information they already have on you is correct, and making any corrections if necessary. 10 minutes, done.
The U.S is unique in forcing its citizens to waste countless hours and pay hundreds/thousands of dollars every year doing the useless unnecessary work of "filing taxes". Why is the system still this backwards? Either plain ignorance of there being a superior alternative, or a broken political system that can't get anything done. My guess is it's a combination of both.
For comparison, as an example of how other developed/developing countries do it:
I’m a South African citizen, I get an SMS that a pre-filled-in tax return is available online.
I can then log in to their online portal and accept it or amend it and submit it electronically.
Currently I can usually just accept and submit it.
Some years I might need to add or tweak income and expenses, but broadly speaking they are pretty correct.
They have all the income and benefit details from standard corporate employers, expense and contribution info from medical aids (something like medical insurance, but a bit more sane as far as I can tell), investment and banking contributions from financial service providers, etc.
You can opt for extra deductions which require extra paperwork from your side. And they don’t always have income info from side hustles or correct expense info from “unusual” arrangements between you and your spouse. Sometimes your $BIGCORP’s finance department can declare your benefits incorrectly which needs fixing.
But for most middle-class income earners I suspect they can just log in and click accept.
You can pay money and use a tax consultant to see if they can navigate the current rules for a better result, but unless you have a complicated setup you don’t need to.
Blaming "lobbyists" absolves the politicians of their responsibility. The fault lies with the politicians for creating and perpetuating this broken system.
Like anyone else, politicians respond to incentives. US crony capitalism is a large-scale systemic failure, and the tax filing system (and under-resourced IRS) is just one symptom.
If you want a narrow target, you can blame the GOP activists on the US Supreme Court, or if you want to go beyond that, blame the GOP senators/presidents who appointed them, the Federalist Society, the GOP donor base, GOP-aligned media organizations, etc.
Gutting campaign finance restrictions was a vast judicial overreach, performed for partisan advantage and the benefit of corrupt wealthy patrons.
I'd add one more in there for a tighter focus -- the lobby group "Americans for Tax Reform", which opposes all tax increases, and specifically opposes any effort from the federal or state governments to provide pre-filled tax returns.
The #1 most relevant goal for politicians is to get re-elected. (Personal enrichment is largely orthogonal.) Raising large campaign contributions is of obvious benefit to that effort, and is not directly a bribe per se. But it does have some of the same problems that bribery has.
It’s undoubtedly true that some US politicians have gotten bribes, defrauded partners or constituents, embezzled money from their campaigns or the government, used inside information to trade stocks, etc. But even if all of those were impossible, the nature of the US campaign finance system would create plenty of perverse incentives.
> Like anyone else, politicians respond to incentives.
Sure, but it's not like they don't have a choice. Regardless of any incentives, they're the only ones actually empowered to make these decisions. Lobbying, offers of bribes, campaign financing promises, etc. do not in any sense detract from their ability and responsibility to make the right choices.
Nearly everyone who takes any responsibility or even believes that there is such a thing as personal or professional ethics has been systematically purged from the GOP over the past few decades, and the GOP now has 6 votes on the Supreme Court and 50 Senators (=> effective veto of all legislation), and may well end up with congressional majorities after the next election.
You can’t un-screw a system by just telling the people inside who were selected for their mendacity and corruption to “make the right choices”.
> You can’t un-screw a system by just telling the people inside who were selected for their mendacity and corruption to “make the right choices”.
Of course not, but it's still the politicians (on both sides of the aisle) who are ultimately at fault for abusing their position and failing in their duty to their constituents, not the lobbyists for merely making suggestions or offering deals in their own self-interest. Restricting lobbying or campaign contributions wouldn't do anything to improve existing politicians' "mendacity and corruption". They'll just find other, less public, ways to serve themselves rather than their constituents.
In a democracy, it is the voters who are ultimately at fault.
But perhaps more to the point, it is the system that is at fault, and the system is very complex: institutions, physical infrastructure, social mores, common beliefs, canonical media and stories, traditions, language, ....
You can’t just point fingers at individual people in a large imperfect system and pretend that swapping them would fix it. Troubleshooting and improving large complex systems is really hard and improvements are usually incremental, except sometimes in extraordinary crises.
Intuit isn’t the problem. Politicians are. See Milton Friedman on this subject. A complicated tax code is used to reward and punish people. The tax code was complex long before Intuit came around.
That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. All tax codes are complicated, and you can always spend days minmaxing your taxes (or hire someone to do that for you).
But the US is unique in the developed world as making filing taxes hell even if you don’t try to minmax them, and that is primarily due to tax filing companies lobbying against the IRS doing what everybody else does (and secondarily due to the GOP very much wanting filing taxes to be as painful and error prone as possible, and for it to be as expensive as possible for the IRS).
But the US tax code is an order of magnitude larger than the Swedish one. Which probably means that it is several orders of magnitude more complex (however that might be defined).
In the UK it's so streamlined some of my coworkers were genuienly surprised when I told them it's the end of the tax year - as in, that's something they have never ever think about in their entire careers. Taxes are paid automatically by your employer, if you only work one regular full time job then "filling taxes" is just not a thing you'd ever have to do in your life.
For many who don't have an automated tax return it could be easily. It amazes me the systems like bizum and bank transfers don't have a checkbox for "this ought to be taxed".
If you are not getting a VAT refund then you are paying VAT and it is in your interest that everyone does, so most consumers would select the box. The transfer is recorded, consumers would be complicit in the fraud if they didn't tick the box and that's enough excuse for both sides to want to play ball.
Most employees don't need to even submit a tax return as with PAYG your taxes are already collected by your employer.
If you do end up filing your taxes, you can access the prefilled tax statements. Software to do that is free and easy. If you want software advising you on how to get a bigger refund, you'll have to pay maybe $10-20, though the $5 software from Aldi works fine for me.
It can work ok if you're a single person with no children. However, you'll potentially have to pay a lot more tax if you're married where your spouse earns more or less than you. There several other reasons where legally you'll have to complete a tax return (e.g foreign income).
German taxes are really horrible, in general. They expect you to pay in advance for expected untaxed income (based on the previous year's return). Working out the taxes on the income from some ETF is a nightmare, unless your platform does it for you. Unless you really understand the system and can file your own taxes, then low-wage freelance work just doesn't make sense as the cost of doing the taxes can be higher than your income. This means people are trapped into not working.
The fun part about advances is that in the first year they don't have data to set your advances so you have to back pay the taxes for the first year in full after filing the first year's taxes in the second year in addition to now having to pay the advances on that year so even if you saved all the money you expected to have to pay in taxes during the first year you also need to have saved up enough to pay the advances but the more money you made (allowing you to set more money aside), the higher the advances will be.
You can negotiate to have your advances reduced but the government really doesn't like it when businesses (including freelancers and solo entrepreneurs) have a high difference between their advances and the actual taxes. This also goes for declaring your VAT (which depending on how much you make you'll have to do monthly or quarterly as an advance and then alongside your income tax) and while in that case you basically set the advance yourself you'll get in trouble if it doesn't match your actual VAT (difference between charged and paid).
You can file your own taxes and if you're a regular employee there are tons of non-commercial orgs you can go to that will assist you in doing that but if you're a "business" (even if it's just you and you haven't incorporated) they'll often not help you.
BTW the reason you can just forego filing your own taxes as an employee if you just want to be taxed on your wages (and don't have anything else to declare, e.g. interest on savings) is that your employer already had to do the taxes on your wages and benefits for you. So it's not like the government just does them themselves, it's just done by payroll instead of you.
This was semi-true until this year (if you didn't care about the often massive deductions you would have just for living somewhere other than your office desk, and only for as long as the tax office would not demand you to file taxes, which they could do for any reason, and often).
Now, with the 300 Euros of fuel relief, every employee will have to file taxes on said 300 Euros.
This thread was not about deductions, but about the government pre-filling your tax-returns with data it already has about you. Parent was implying that does not exist in Germany, which isn't true. Or are you actually saying that the government will deliberately fill in wrong values, so that you have to pay higher taxes, even though the prefilled values are visible to you and discrepancies would be obvious (and a huge scandal).
There are several ways in which a software can fill data "wrongly".
If you are legally able to claim deductions, pre-filled tax forms that do not contain those deductions are by definition wrong, even though you may agree with individual form items. While this can be related to innocent mistakes and the sheer inability of the state to know the necessary information, sometimes it appears to be deliberate: The classic example is the Pendlerpauschale, which does not appear in Elster pre-filled tax forms even though the state does have all necessary information (address of your flat / address of your employer) to fill it.
If you accept these faulty forms, you will almost always pay more taxes than you have to.
> The U.S is unique in forcing its citizens to waste countless hours
It may be unusual, but it's certainly not unique; I have to fill in a tax-return every year, because I receive rental income. Anyone in the UK that receives income that isn't taxed at source by their employer has to complete one.
The last one I completed was 21 pages long, with notes for each page; a lot of the time I spent was scrabbling through my filing cabinet searching for my evidence.
That rental income plus my state pension and bank interest are the only taxable income I receive.
At one time I was a company director, and had to fill in personal tax returns. I folded the company, and returned to salaried employment, taxed at source; it took me a decade to get the tax authorities to stop sending me tax return forms that I was required by law to complete.
The various allowances are certainly helpful but £1,000 doesn’t really factor in when you’re dealing with rental income. Almost every landlord will cross that threshold and should expect to fill a return in.
Hearing about how taxes work in other countries makes me grateful for the system we have here.
Most people never have to file a return. The people that do have a more complicated arrangement and probably need to summarise expenses, etc.
There is another reason: a group of Republican lobbyists (Americans for Tax Reform) deliberately want to make taxes more difficult. The idea is that 1) if taxes are difficult, you will spend as much as your time trying to get every deduction and 2) a prefilled tax form from the government would look too much like a bill, so people will pay it without contesting.
Of course, TurboTax/Intuit also lobbies to keep taxes more difficult to protect their profits.
I dunno. Most people I know are 1099 / contract workers, and a lot of them get paid cash off the books. The government might have a rough idea of what they make, but it definitely doesn't know down to the penny. I keep very good books, but I have foreign bank accounts, crypto trades, subcontractors I paid over Paypal, people who paid me over Paypal, and there's no one system I'm aware of that could figure out what I actually owe in taxes. It still costs me about $800 a year through an accountant to file my taxes. (Luckily, you can write it off).
Until or unless everything is centralized and cash ceases to exist, I don't know how they'd really do it. In South Korea do waiters live on tips? Because in the US, almost all money made in the restaurant service industry comes from unrecorded cash tips; the actual wages are extremely low. The restaurant will attempt to estimate their workers tips and cover the taxes out of the fixed wages, but... this doesn't even get into all the other cash industries like stripping or moonlighting as a dominatrix. The US's tax attitude seems to be: You're on your honor, and most of the time we won't catch you, but not even Jesus can help if we do.
We should keep a broken tax system because many of your peers are paid illegally? Or because edge cases exist?
I should be a pretty typical middle-class example. Two salaries (me + spouse), a mortgage, limited other deductions. Yet every year I have to wait for various forms that the government already has, enter the values on paper or pay for tax software, hope I don’t fat finger a value, and wait 7-10 years for an audit. Heck, since Trump increased the standard deduction, I’ll probably be taking that soon (mortgage interest is near that threshold now), but still can’t just click a button at irs.gov that says “yup, that’s right, here’s my bank info for refund/payment”
Oh no. I'm just explaining why it's more efficient for the IRS to do it this way. I'd personally like to abolish income tax and only tax sales, with up to 100% tax on luxury goods and no tax on food, etc.
The IRS could generate online forms (or snail mail) with what they know and let us add deductions and other income. They should know salary/wages, they could know investment income (not sure if broker report to the IRS, or just send forms to filers).
Even if the filer has to manually enter deductions, credits, etc, doing it on an IRS site has several benefits... no $50+ fee for H&R/TaxCut/etc, no $500+ for a CPA (for fairly typical tax situations), no worrying about whether online submission processed correctly (because you'd be submitting directly to the IRS instead of relying on a 3rd party to submit for you). Multiply that time/money/stress savings across the population and it's a MASSIVE benefit to society.
No, I mean, the efficiency is partly amplified by keeping people in constant fear. It costs them less and it increases compliance. Like, those fuckers just put a question about crypto on the front page this year and I just decided not to lie on a sworn document, and basically spent 2 months figuring out what the fuck ridiculous chain of events led to me selling some bitcoin in 2021, to be on the right side of 'em. And they probably never would have known. But it's the fear that they might've known, you see, that makes them so efficient.
Well, really it's progressive if it only taxes stuff you don't need to buy. Here's what I think:
Fuel and food, no tax.
School supplies, shoes, clothing, any item under $100, no tax. Over $100, ramp it up.
Diamond rings, 100% tax.
Alcohol and cigarettes, 20-30%.
Used cars, no tax.
New cars, 10% up to 100%. Credits if they're electric or extremely fuel-efficient.
Playstations, high end sneakers, Smart TVs, iPhones, rims, jewelry, expensive furnishings, rugs, anything better than your basic washer/drier: 100% tax.
Books: Free and subsidized by the government, as many as you want, any book ever written.
Healthcare: Free.
College: Free.
Basically under my plan, as long as you get stuff you need for your family, you pay no tax. If you get stuff you want for your pleasure, you pay tax on it.
How's that regressive?
The only real downside I see is the potential for a massive black market in luxury goods, tobacco and alcohol. But legalizing and taxing pot and prostitution should take some of the sting out of that.
Well, that's a very glass-half-empty way of looking at it. I'm saying that high earners have to help subsidize lower earners the more luxuries they accrue in their life. It's not the earning after all that makes the difference between rich and poor; that's why the wealthiest people in America pay no income tax. They're not earning anything, officially. But boy do they spend.
So maybe, I don't know, if you're really concerned about people getting that one luxury in life then there could be an exemption, like if you make under $50k a year you get refunded the VAT on $2k of luxury purchases. Ok? But it has to be small enough to prevent the ultra-wealthy from using it as a loophole.
> Why is the system still this backwards? Either plain ignorance of there being a superior alternative, or a broken political system that can't get anything done.
Neither. There is awareness of the alternatives, and the political system can get things done for it's real constituents. The problem is a malevolent political system that primarily serves a class whose interests are opposed to the mass of the citizenry, to wit, a narrow capitalist elite.
(People will point to the tax prep industry, it's lobbying, etc., and that is part of the problem; an bigger part, however, is the political faction favoring lower taxes in general for the elites that likes to maximize the perceived pain of taxes for the masses to generate support for elite-favoring tax cuts; they are adamantly opposed to procedural simplification that minimizes the pain they leverage.)
Yes. So see my “methodology” above. It is the systematic way for you to do the part that is missing. With various weird-ass forms, this is STILL a lot of work. But it will be substantially correct, where substantially means that the IRS will correct any errors without considering you a miscreant.
“Capitalism” does not mean “every use of money that I disagree with”.
It also does not mean “greedy immoral bastards who sell political influence to the highest bidder”.
There are lots of corrupt things about the US government. That’s not capitalism; it’s corruption. It can happen in any form of government; in the US it just happens to be much more visible.
However, Capitalism inherently rewards corruption. If you are a corrupt politician and earn $10 million through corruption you can invest your money and the capital gains alone will exceed any politician's salary and this is ignoring that you will earn more every single year due to compounding.
You can burn the amazon down and then invest the earned or saved money and economists will tell you, you are doing well and that you have a god given right to that wealth.
Communism doesn't even try to address the root cause, it's actually making the problem worse by concentrating everything at the top.
Almost like all the "isms" are total garbage. The best route forward would be to examine all the "isms", find the parts of each that can be brought together to make a new path forward. Unabashed capitalism is a scourge, just like any other "ism" if left unchecked.
The U.S is unique in forcing its citizens to waste countless hours and pay hundreds/thousands of dollars every year doing the useless unnecessary work of "filing taxes". Why is the system still this backwards? Either plain ignorance of there being a superior alternative, or a broken political system that can't get anything done. My guess is it's a combination of both.