This mind virus is even capturing science. Here's a job opening for a Research Chair in Experimental Physics.
"Candidates must be from one or more of the following equity-seeking groups to apply: women, persons with disabilities, Indigenous peoples, and racialized groups"
Apart from all the things at the top that have no sources and that honestly sound like propaganda:
> Back before all of this, LGBQT people were happy to just be seen as normal and like everyone else
Since when, sorry? When were we *ever* seen as normal people. Slurs flying around. People getting beat up. Suicide rates for trans youth are through the roof. Constant hate and bullying offline and online, and all of this is just for the countries that have it good.
In some places, being yourself is a literal death sentence.
Just the fact that you say that LGBTQ+ people were "happy" to be seen as "normal" shows how out of touch you are with the things queer people experience on a daily basis. And not only that.. what the hell does "normal" mean. What, you expect us to conform just enough that the straights don't see us as an eyesore?
I shouldn't be angry about a random comment on the internet, but I am. And you know why? Because right now, at this point in time, there's many people in my country and others that say the exact same bullshit that you're saying, and they weaponize it to:
- deny my right to marry my partner
- deny my right to adopt kids
- deny my friends' right to start HRT, so that she can stop feeling gender dysphoria every single day
- stop laws that would protect me from being publicly berated in public for my sexuality
- push homophobic and transphobic rethoric on their children, so that LGBTQ+ teens go through hell
I'd wager that "marriage", "family", "not feeling like shit", "being respected" are pretty basic rights... aren't they?
> Since when, sorry? When were we ever seen as normal people.
I said LGBQT people were happy to be seen as normal people (as their goal/ultimate achievement), and nothing more than that. Which is somewhat different than to what's happening now where it seems like special status and attention is demanded.
> with the things queer people experience on a daily basis.
I'm not denying these things happen.
> - deny my right to marry my partner - deny my right to adopt kids - deny my friends' right to start HRT, so that she can stop feeling gender dysphoria every single day - stop laws that would protect me from being publicly berated in public for my sexuality - push homophobic and transphobic rethoric on their children, so that LGBTQ+ teens go through hell
Well, shit, gays have had these worries for a long time, but on a bigger timeframe everything is shifting more and more towards acceptance and integration. Just look at how much the LGBQT movement has achieved the last few years. Absolutely unthinkable 20 years ago. Getting HRT is as easy as never before, marriage equality has been fully achieved with the Supreme Court decision in Obergefell v. Hodges in 2015.
Sure, you have concerns because of the recent abortion issues, I understand and as would I if I lived in the US, but these are initially concerns, and nothing else.
> I'd wager that "marriage", "family", "not feeling like shit", "being respected" are pretty basic rights... aren't they?
They are, and aside of feeling like shit, which unfortunately is largely based on your own psychological issues and markup, everything of this is readily available and achievable.
You know what I'm pissed about? Pushing it further and further and hurting your own cause. I can only reiterate again, I am not transphobic or anything else, I am myself bisexual, and I have no tolerance for actual hate rhetoric and propaganda in these directions. But raising valid concerns isn't any of that. I have literally been attacked for stating that I am bisexual and don't have neopronouns. The (radicalized) LGBQT movement is discriminating against races and their own peers, spreading hate, and using violent methodology to force their own political beliefs. And when you start calling people that simply raise concerns transphobic..
You lament people becoming extreme in their views above and then go full moral panic in this post.
Maybe try to remember previous gay panics (or pick an alternate target group) that society has gone through in the past, remember what that ended up amounting to, and maybe reevaluate your media sources if you've suddenly been convinced groomers make up a large portion of the population.
Small children do not take hormones or have gender related surgery. Adolescents under medical oversight can. These treatments have very low regret rates and reduce suicides.
Ehm... Sorry to break it to you, but people who think they were born the wrong sex are increasingly treated with hormones before the onset of puberty (with puberty-delaying treatments it's kind of the point). Not arguing whether it's good or bad, but by definition they are children at that point in time.
I'm not saying what you can do or not, I just see evidence (a quick google away) that people are given meds to delay puberty, meaning before its start (= onset), meaning they are not yet adolescents by definition.
Edit to everyone pointing out a technicality: yes, puberty blockers != hormone replacement therapy. However, puberty blockers ⊆ hormone replacement therapy.
No. Puberty blockers have been prescribed for early onset puberty for over 30 years. Puberty proceeds the same basically unless they take cross sex hormones.
Thars a very different usage than the one I am talking about. I am talking about using it on transgemder individuals to block normal puberty, until after it wouldve been over normally.
About people taking puberty blockers to block normal puberty as part of hormone replacement therapy? The information is readily available, are you joking?
The other uses of these meds, ones that you are suggesting, is not what this discussion is about at all. You are being willfully ignorant of the context.
About how old is too old. And what would be not proper. You willfully ignored the context. And cross sex hormones block natural puberty on their own.
This discussion is not about trans people? It's rare for someone taking puberty blockers for gender dysphoria to be undecided still when puberty would be over. They decide earlier. Deciding to transition means blocking natural puberty forever. Deciding not to transition means no reason to keep taking puberty blockers.
Would starting hormonal replacement therapy (by way of puberty blockers) on its own already influence one's decision on what their preferred sex should be?
That is, assuming our consciousness is influenced by chemistry in our bodies.
Puberty blockers don't change gender identity in early onset puberty. Even removing sex organs doesn't change gender identity. David Reimer was castrated very young and raised as a girl. It didn't work. Similar treatments have been forced on intersex children.
Some people say so many gender dysphoria patients taking puberty blockers choosing to transition proves puberty blockers make them want to transition. Maybe it proves diagnostic criteria, professional advice, social factors, or other things keep people who wouldn't transition off puberty blockers.
> Some people say so many gender dysphoria patients taking puberty blockers choosing to transition proves puberty blockers make them want to transition
These people do not address that:
- People with gender dysphoria are disproportionately likely (though somewhat less than those who do take puberty blockers) to choose to transition without having taken puberty blockers, too, and
- People with gender dysphoria who take puberty blockers have a reduced incidence of suicidality.
The best explanation is that:
(1) Gender dysphoria, not puberty blockers, predicts future likelihood of choosing transition, and
(2) Within the group with dysphoria, future likelihood of choosing transition is also correlated with risk of suicidality without puberty blockers, such that withholding puberty blockers reduces the future transition rate by disproportionately killing those most likely to transition later.
Fair enough. I still don't rule out the rise in xenoestrogens and such as playing a role, but I'm aware of reduced suicidality and that's obviously a good thing.
> People with gender dysphoria are disproportionately likely [to transition]
Adolescents can take hormones. Near adolescents can take puberty blockers. Not small children.
You wrote teenagers later.
> That's the case until now, since only a few years ago there were 4000% less instances.
Did you mean the claimed 4000% increase in a survey of American college students between 2006 and 2021? The category changed from transgendered to transgender or gender non conforming.[1][2] Gender non conforming and trans are different. Trans and willing to say trans in 2006 are different. Students at self selected colleges don't represent the population.
Did you mean the claimed 4000% increase in under 18s referred to the NHS gender service between 2009 and 2017? The articles saying it was 4000% or more said the numbers were 97 and 2,510. 2,510 isn't 4000% of 97. The official adjusted numbers were 77 and 2,444.[3] 2,444 was between 0.30% and 0.37% of their birth years.[4] Near the low end of estimates for trans people. What is the right number? How do you know?
> If only 10% of the 4000% end up regretting their decision or god forbid even committing suicide the non-regrets will be a minority.
10% regret is 90% non regret.
> just go on Youtube and watch the doctors speaking out now. Or any other source. There is no real oversight any more, and they cannot voice their medical opinion freely. Suggesting that it would be indicated to wait and assess other psychological factors first apparently directly leads to them being terrorized and publicly shamed as transphobic.
Did you check those claims more carefully than 4000%?
> I have a hard time seeing how any of this helps anyone. It doesn't even help transgender folks.
Since when have LGBTQ people been seen as normal and like everyone else?
We've only had marriage for less than a decade and scotus could take that away; in many states it's still illegal i believe some constitutionally.
Not even going to try and touch on what most in here are up in arms about (gender, trans rights, race).
What children at age 6 are getting hormone blockers/therapy?
Just a quick search shows that standard treatment is not until puberty.
For a 'smart' forum that just seems like some basic common sense thrown out the window...
Why block or alter puberty that won't happen for years.
And even if some kids are getting their treatment at a younger age why are you making that your business?
Why are people angry about that?!
nd worse why are states passing laws to investigate doctors & parents for 'child abuse'? Do people really think some doctor or mad parent is just giving their kid hormones because they wanted a boy not a girl?
Trans kids have some of the (might be the highest) suicide rates of any group. Gender affirming and supportive care is widely established best practice. But so is abortion..
Why do people here feel like they should have the final say over the health of a child and families' medical decisions.
The answer seems obvious to me... And it's a sad one.
Plus who is forcing you to change 'core language concepts'?
Is it really a bridge too far to ask that we all be kind to one another?
Blatantly rejecting someone's identity to their face is minimally rude, sometimes malicious, and far too often violent at worst.
Why are SO many people on this thread so upset about this.
Comment er below makes a very good point about the violent consequences of these escalations.
Labeling people 'groomers' is not even trying to hide its intent. Sex predators are the one class of people most are ok with extrajudicial violence against. That's not an accident.
This is so frustrating, I just can't wrap my head around it.
The last few comments i've made on HN are just being disappointed with what should be an intelligent community.
So many comments here are just debased from reality and rejecting basic facts.
I've mostly stopped engaging on HN because these threads come up every other time i visit and it's just so maddening & frustrating to read.
I'll just end by saying I'm pretty young. Things were feeling optimistic.
But not anymore. I'm terrified for my future. I am thinking through self defense options & scenarios because there is a decent (and growing) possibility of violence against me and my community.
I'm lucky to live in a state which is very unlikely to pass laws revoking my rights. For now.. Won't stop SCOTUS though.
This whole comment section is pretty frustrating. I don't even live in America and I'm scared. An enormous wave of hate is starting to show recently - even in the comparatively few places where queer people are relatively ok.
I still don't get to marry in my country - only civil unions, and even that was hard fought. No adoption, no real protection from hate crime. Elections are happening soon, and the projection of who's likely to win is... bleak, to say the least.
And I'm the lucky one: I'm a cis gay man, and out of the whole LGBTQ+ community, I'm in one of the least bad spots to be in. My trans brothers and sisters have it way, way worse - especially when surgery and/or hormones are not nearly as easy to come by as these people on the internet would like to think.
Me and my boyfriend are careful about any public display of affection, out of fear. I have trans and non-binary friends who have to either hide who they are, or fear stepping outside their homes - or even their own bedrooms. And one day - if lawmakers would be so kind as to let me - I would love to raise one or more children. To be a father. But as it is, even if I would... this is not the world I would want to raise a child in.
It's often the ones restricting adoptions that also want more of them.
Why stop someone from giving love. Hate is just too strong.
In the US adoption is heavily tied up in religious institutions. States will pay / contract it out to church affiliated orgs.
And it's plain as day that the R appointed judges & justices up and down the bench are wanting to put 'religious freedom' over common curtesy, dignity, and human rights.
Another one pissing me off:
The guy who helped write the Texas abortion bounty bill is suing to get rid of rules that insurance has to provide birth control and prep. Plenty of scholars think they will win.
Insane that their extreme religious beliefs get to override our health and safety.
Even if we can get an angry political movement we can't quickly fix lifetime appointments on courts from local level all the way up to scotus.
> This whole comment section is pretty frustrating.
I agree. The amount of misinformation and/or active disinformation in this comment section is horrifying and disheartening.
> My trans brothers and sisters have it way, way worse - especially when surgery and/or hormones are not nearly as easy to come by as these people on the internet would like to think.
It really is wild to me how many people think, like, school nurses are handing out hormone medication like candy or something, or you can just go get them OTC at the corner drug store. My kid's school nurse won't even give her Tylenol without calling me, these people really think they're secretly sending kids home with hormone medication?
It is not and easy or fast process. Often, in the case of gender questioning youth, puberty blockers are used to buy time for them while they assess their feelings and the process plays out, because they are entirely reversible - just stop taking them. The whole initial transition process can often take a year or more from first appointment to hormone therapy starting and there are lots of gatekeepers along the way to safeguard you.
In most places if you are under 18 you have to be under the care of an LGBT-affirming physician (which can be very hard to find, even in cities, and often have months of wait time), have had at least some therapy under your belt, and an official gender dysphoria diagnosis to get hormone treatment started.
Surgical approaches are very rarely considered for young people. Like I am sure there have been some, I can't fully rule it out, but I run in LGBT+ circles a lot and have for decades, and I personally have not met a single person who had any kind of gender-affirming surgery done before 18. Most have them done in their 20s or 30s if they can afford it. The wait times can stretch into years, and the surgeries themselves are often considered cosmetic procedures and are often not covered the same as a medically-required surgery. Even among adult trans people, surgeries are often considered a far off goal that many never be reached, and quite a few will find that they don't want or need it once other transitioning processes have happened and they no longer feel crippling levels of dysphoria.
And all of that assumes you have a supportive parent or guarding and, as one stroll through various transgender hangouts on the web will tell you, that is not as common as one would hope. All it takes is one parent to say "no" and you're not doing anything until you're an adult. Once you are 18 things are a bit more open and you have more options to speed the process up, but it is hard being a transgender youth.
There are a lot of misconceptions in these comments about what being transgender is, what the process for getting HRT is, and all of the various steps needed to reach each person's individual goals. And all of this is easily researchable using Google in 10 minutes, it just takes an open mind and a willingness to see others' viewpoints. It's extremely frustrating.
The disinformation has a purpose sadly. And it's clearly working.
I'm not sure how to fix it though.
More doctors speaking out? seeing some parents & their young trans kids feels helps.
The fact that the word 'humanizing' is used just shows how gross this is; that these kids and queer people are somehow not human already.
Just as a thought experiment type rabbit hole, I've spent some time thinking about the net benefit of our increasing representation and being more integrated into society at large.
It feels that on the whole the #s look more accepting. Gay marriage has majority support (so does abortion..)
But seeing trans people and queer people on TV has triggered an insane backlash.
See it on HN threads all the time.
"netflix is all propaganda."
When the representation numbers are just barely catching up the real general population (of which is probably still low given closeting).
Our existence isn't propaganda.
It's not indoctrination to live our truth.
But a lot of people feel threatened and backed into a corner which is dangerous.
And some politicians pick up on this and whip it up into an very dangerous frenzy of disinformation and hate.
Is it? To me it feels like it's getting worse and worse, but that might be my bubble.