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They are an exchange that allows future trading and margin trading which require borrowing money/assets/coins. The FTT tokens were probably put up as collateral for loans. The drop of the FTT value probably triggers calls on those loans. Thus the liquidity crisis.



It shouldn't work this way. Customer funds should be segregated from whatever prop trading the rest of the business is doing.

The only way this happens is if the prop trading business is over-leveraged somehow and the exchange bailed it out with FTT.

Customer deposits should meet liabilities 1:1. If they don't, somebody is lying.


> Customer deposits should meet liabilities 1:1. If they don't, somebody is lying.

That’s not how banking works. You hold illiquid assets. Sometimes they move in price. If they move enough in price you’re insolvent. Limiting bank runs is a genuinely hard problem.


Exchanges aren't banks, and crypto exchanges especially shouldn't be banks. Crypto is liquid and can be redeemed in its own denomination instantly if you hold it in a simple wallet. That's what exchanges should be doing. They shouldn't be doing fractional reserve banking, and a run shouldn't be possible. Preventing runs on a crypto exchange is exceedingly easy if the operators aren't taking risks with client funds.


Well, it seems the word 'exchange' in this case is used with a different meaning when applied to FTX than the meaning you have in mind.


Which is exactly the problem.

This should be illegal, and people who do this should go to jail.

Customer funds should be 1 to 1 backed with assets.


As long as noone is being lied to, I don't see any problems.

Case A, tell your customers that their funds have asset backing, and have asset backing: fine.

Case B: tell your customers that their funds have no asset backing, and have no asset backing: fine. (Those customers deserve what they get.)

Case C: tell your customers nothing, and do whatever you feel like: fine. (Those customers deserve what they get.)

Case D: tell your customers that their funds have asset back, and have no asset backing: bad.


B and C are perfectly fair game for a government to attempt to prevent, regulate, and prosecute in my book.

I don't think anyone has an inherent right to take advantage of people's ignorance solely for their own profit even if those people "deserve what they get." We make plenty of other ways of abusing people illegal, why allow that one?


I agree that if voters want to outlaw B and C, that's their prerogative. I don't see any moral imperative for that action, though.

My formulation of 'deserve what they get' was perhaps a bit snarky.

There are good reasons for people to invest in risky ventures. Eg when you invest in a startup, you might be able to get your money back, if you ask nicely, but there's no guarantee, and there's not necessarily any liquid assets backing your funds.

I think investing in risky assets should be legal.

I also think that it should be legal for people to invest in assets that have no official classification into whether they are risky or not. Ie when the company taking your funds makes no claims (as in C), in practice the customers should assume the worst.

If you want to forbid C, alas, that leads to a lot of bureaucracy. Because you have to define what an adequate level of disclosure looks like. And then there will be lots of paperwork.


As a taxpayer I don't want to see any government resources wasted on protecting greedy, stupid cryptocurrency "investors" from their own bad decisions. They deserve what they get and their losses will serve as a useful example to others.


Case D is what we are seeing over and over again, including this circumstance


No argument from me there. I was just narrowly addressing the point in stale2002's comment.


> As long as noone is being lied to

That is exactly what is happening. There is lots of lies being told, with no transparency, and then people's money disappears.

Instead of that, if people money disappears, we should arrest the people who made it disappear.


No argument from me there. I was just narrowly addressing the point in stale2002's comment.

Though to be honest, it is well known that the long term fate of any crypto exchange is to go bust. So no one could really claim that they didn't know it was coming.

Crypto is glorified gambling. (At least so far. In principle, crypto can mature over time into something more serious.)


I don't think it can, because all those serious things already exist and require the kinds of governance that the crypto promise rails against.


In theory the eventual steady state of crypto is a fully debugged and tested perfect software system that is not exploitable.


Except none of these 4 cases happened with FTX.

SBF claimed that assets WERE backed, while it appears that they were not.


That would be case D, wouldn't it be?


Assets backed with lies and cryptobullshit. At least someone has had a learning opportunity.


Are you saying that fractional reserve banking should be illegal, or that insolvent banks should be illegal? I think the second one already basically is. Or at least with a real bank, they get shut down and the FDIC bails the depositors out.

Educated rumor is suggesting FTX may be insolvent, not only the victim of a bank run type scenario.


You are referring to liquidity providers and market maker; they provide the liquidity (in the form of loans for margin trading, among other things), take risk in exchange for market making fee.

An exchange on the other hand is facilitating trades by matching buyers with sellers. At least that's how it works in stock markets. Even if NASDAQ were to become a market maker they would have to spin a separate entity, bring their own funds to provide liquidity. Even then I don't know if it's allowed by regulation.


> Even then I don’t know if it’s allowed by regulation

It isn’t, precisely for this reason. The US Equity and Equity Derivative markets have tried a few times to get approval for initiatives using their already existing BDs (to facilitate inter-market order routing), and in every case it’s been blocked by the regulators as too risky to the underlying business.

The issue here has more to do with the lack of a centralized C&S clearing house in crypto, and is one of the reasons counterparty risk remains such a massive issue there. Having to maintain an account at each exchange, much like you would a BD, and praying things don’t suddenly go pear shaped, strikes me as insane (and is one of the primary reasons I’ve avoided getting involved in the crypto space)


that makes FTX a "shadow bank", not merely an exchange.


It's worse than "shadow bank". It's bank who is allowed to print money at its whims and create any arbitrary leverage it wants.


Well, that's what the 'shadow' in 'shadow bank' means: less/different regulation than a normal bank.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, btw.


Where's the "bank" in this "shadow bank"? You're describing a casino with a money printer.


"Shadow banks" aren't necessarily "banks". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banking_system

> The shadow banking system is a term for the collection of non-bank financial intermediaries (NBFIs) that provide services similar to traditional commercial banks but outside normal banking regulations.[1] Examples of NBFIs include insurance firms, pawn shops, cashier's check issuers, check cashing locations, payday lending, currency exchanges, and microloan organizations.[2][3] The phrase "shadow banking" is regarded by some as pejorative, and the term "market-based finance" has been proposed as an alternative.[4]


You're moving the goalposts a bit there


The phrase already existed. If there was no more to it than you could immediately guess from the words, then it would be a useless term.


What would you say a non shadow bank is? "Money printing" is "just" a reserve ratio near or less than 0.


It makes them a brokerage, doesn’t it? Not a shadow bank.


Ok. To settle once for all whether FTX is an exchange or not. Below are the services they offer.

Futures: ... with margins of up to 101x.

Leveraged Tokens: ... up to three times the leverage. ... the leveraged coins offered by FTX don’t require any margin.

Options: (standardish).

MOVE: ... wager on the price movement ... a play on volatility.

Spot Markets: ... more than 100 different spot trading pairs.


It's fine for a trading venue to list all these derivatives, the problem in this case is that the venue and issuer are the same entity. In the trad finance world this is strictly separated.


Your margin account should be immediately liquidated and your positions closed if the value of your collateral drops below your outstanding obligations.


That's called picking up pennies in front of a steam roller.




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