I mostly agree with everything you're saying. And share your goals. I also absolutely don't think my place in the totem pole is special, I worked hard to get here, but I'm absolutely replaceable.
I'm more pessimistic though on outcomes. I don't think UBI solves anything, just kicks the can down the road a little bit longer.
Money exists because of scarcity, there isn't enough for everyone. Money helps us decide who gets what, prices are relative and fluctuate as supply and demand change, that's a very good thing. If I think I can get a better deal elsewhere, I'll take my ball and go home. If I want it bad enough, I'll work harder (or sacrifice elsewhere) so I can afford to get it.
Baristas aren't paid well because anyone can grind and brew their own coffee. Or just buy a Keurig which costs less overall. Contrast that to say, a surgeon who is paid well precisely because most people don't want to operate on themselves.
The issue I have with UBI is that you still have the same number of people chasing the same number of scarce resources/houses/products. So prices will rise accordingly. Pretty soon it becomes "UBI doesn't let me be a musician and live the lifestyle I want/deserve". Complaints that UBI doesn't pay well enough, big business, etc.
I'm 100% for a better social net to catch those who have stumbled/fallen. But the arguments elsewhere in this thread conflate that with being able to pursue the life of your dreams free of consequence. That's the heart of the distinction I'm making here.
To me, you can't chase your dream without asking yourself "How hard am I willing to work to get what I really want?" Achievement is more satisfying when it's earned then when it's handed to you. A well lived life is about playing the hand you were dealt well, rather than complaining that you weren't dealt a better hand. I think that's the difference between having the "right to pursue happiness" versus the "right to happiness".
A lot of the stuff UBI would pay for is (imo) not that scarce or shouldn't be. Food, water, most medicine, etc. we can absolutely just provide to everyone. We have the resources to give everyone a decent life (ie. not struggling to stay alive, not made artificially awful etc.).
I am quite sure of this for America given the current level of offshore exploitation not changing. I think but am not entirely convinced this is possible globally. Certainly there is some amount of population that is simply too much for the earth to sustainably handle but I have no real idea what exactly that number is.
Stuff that is inherently not scalable then .. yea .. ubi cant fix that. Not everyone can get a mansion, or 1918 wines, or even maybe suburban houses really. Not sure exactly where the lines are but there ARE unique things and it's wrong to discount that.
But the current system is set up so that you have to grind hours doing miserable things largely unrelated to survival to get enough money to _not die_. I feel like UBI is just the simplest most reasonable safety net for that. Certainly there are other options but they add bureaucracy and complications that don't seem worth it to me. It's like everyone has a house they can crash at indefinitely if they need or want to.
But it's not the only option ofc. Just seems to me like a decent combination of simple + politically viable + solves many problems of exploitative work. Healthcare-for-all would be huge step forwards even without UBI so it's not the only goal either.
& as for "right to happiness" - I really believe that most people will still want to be useful and make cool things people like, even if given the option to not. Open Source software etc. is already run this way on weekends. Making something useful for other people will still be an achievement people strive for, and would be rewarded on top of UBI.
> you have to grind hours doing miserable things largely unrelated to survival to get enough money to _not die_.
Working to not die, isn't that the definition of survival? Or, as Rick Sanchez might say, grinding at your job is just surviving with extra steps.
> I really believe that most people will still want to be useful and make cool things people like
I really want to believe this, and it's true there are a lot of us that will do just that.
The issue is that there are a lot of traps and vices people can fall into. Alcoholism, drug use, even seemingly benign stuff like chasing digital approval are very ugly when taken to extremes. What snaps most people out of this stuff and keeps us in check is the fear of hitting rock bottom -- that is, you know that if you don't change you're likely going to lose everything / die / etc.
I've seen it in numerous lives, its only when they hit rock bottom that they decide something needs to change (that something being them). I know a former heroin user that destroyed every relationship in his life (including family) to get his hands on the stuff, and only changed when he decided that being homeless and waking up naked in a crack house was enough.
UBI takes away rock bottom. What's to stop a drug addict when there is no downside to staying high all the time?
As much as I would like to believe in UBI helping people, I would wager that there is a positive correlation between the people that UBI could help the most and people most susceptible to addiction. Maybe that's my pessimism leaking through, but I don't think UBI is a solution for them.
Again, I'm ALL for having better social safety nets etc. It's just hard to define what better is. You can meet a man's physical needs and still starve his soul.
yeah, its the unrelated to survival that gets me
i'd be fine working equally hard on something meaningful to not die. im not happy with shuffling paperwork for the same thing. maybe this is a personal problem
For me personally at least, why I really want UBI is for soul-starving needs specifically. My job I fully believe is either net-neutral or hurting the world, and after some amount of looking have not been able to find one that's both clearly positive and not exploited. If I was given UBI I would quit, maybe volunteer to teach one class a day in a high school, or help run a boardgame cafe or makerspace. There would be no worry of putting people out a job since they'd be getting UBI too.
Right now I feel souless. I'm living well but through some glitch in the system that rewards people for writing useless code on a project that I'm expecting will get canned (the last two were thrown away) and spending time on hackernews. I want to be doing the useful things that currently don't pay well enough to be live without anxiety.
I think a lot of people working exploited jobs would also benefit, for the reasons you already know if you want a general safety net. Being able to quit without fear is a lot of leverage and would make things a lot more equal between employer / employee. Current unemployment benefits don't give anything if you quit (instead of fired) and a UBI style no-questions-asked solves this.
Addictions / vices are certainly a problem, and could definitely be worse with UBI perpetually enabling. I don't really have a great answer to this. The current system does not seem very kind to addicts without external support either, so I'm not sure how much worse this would be either way but definitely something to think about. Hadn't really considered that angle before.
Either way, I'm not 100% convinced UBI is the best way to add a safety net. I do think it would have some pretty profound effects on what work people would be wiling to do, most of which would be positive. It's a pretty simple / meme-able demand the same way 'fight for 15' or 'healthcare for all' is, that's really all the pitch i have for it tbh
What sort of changes are you hoping for?
(edit: is there a comment reply limit? if this is the end im happy to give an email or phone # to continue somewhere else. legit this is the only pleasant hackernews comment thread i've been a part of on this or my alt so thank you very much <3)
Feel free to reach out to me, my email can be found on manfreda.org
In the meantime I understand the struggle. I'm on the other side of it now. My answers work for me, that's enough.
Gotta accept the world the way it is, you can't change it, but you can change you. I've found that stoicism helps a lot. [1] Absurdism helps me a lot as well. [2]
A few books I found helpful along the way
Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl [3]
Ride the Tiger by Julius Evola [4]
Finally, if you can get through all of it, I found this book extremely profound when looked at from a 10,000 ft. view. This combined with Absurdism largely explains my worldview.
I'm more pessimistic though on outcomes. I don't think UBI solves anything, just kicks the can down the road a little bit longer.
Money exists because of scarcity, there isn't enough for everyone. Money helps us decide who gets what, prices are relative and fluctuate as supply and demand change, that's a very good thing. If I think I can get a better deal elsewhere, I'll take my ball and go home. If I want it bad enough, I'll work harder (or sacrifice elsewhere) so I can afford to get it.
Baristas aren't paid well because anyone can grind and brew their own coffee. Or just buy a Keurig which costs less overall. Contrast that to say, a surgeon who is paid well precisely because most people don't want to operate on themselves.
The issue I have with UBI is that you still have the same number of people chasing the same number of scarce resources/houses/products. So prices will rise accordingly. Pretty soon it becomes "UBI doesn't let me be a musician and live the lifestyle I want/deserve". Complaints that UBI doesn't pay well enough, big business, etc.
I'm 100% for a better social net to catch those who have stumbled/fallen. But the arguments elsewhere in this thread conflate that with being able to pursue the life of your dreams free of consequence. That's the heart of the distinction I'm making here.
To me, you can't chase your dream without asking yourself "How hard am I willing to work to get what I really want?" Achievement is more satisfying when it's earned then when it's handed to you. A well lived life is about playing the hand you were dealt well, rather than complaining that you weren't dealt a better hand. I think that's the difference between having the "right to pursue happiness" versus the "right to happiness".