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Cuba and the geopolitics of submarine cables (kentik.com)
70 points by oavioklein on Jan 13, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 76 comments


Some people here have bought into the cuba's dictatorship propaganda about free healthcare, LGBTQ rights, free education and all that lie: Get in a plane and walks its cities and towns. Doctors in Cuba earn around 40 dolars in cuban pesos a month while the government sell most of the goods at 3x-7x the price in U.S in dollars! The LGBTQ and Blacks are the people most imprisoned in Cuba for any reason. Freedom of speech? good luck, there are minors in jail for peacefully protesting in Cuba on July 11, 2021 sentenced to more than 10 years in jail.

Please inform yourself before spreading the dictatorship propaganda or you become a useful fool for its non elected government and support the misery of 11 million people.

https://www.heritage.org/trade/report/why-the-cuban-trade-em... https://cubitanow.com/


Nothing of what you say matters, whether true or false - Cuba is a sovereign nation, its non of your business to change the country in one way or another. Who do you think the USA is that it can decide for other countries what is best for them?


And there lies the rub right, because Cubans are deciding it either.


What if a country decides that they like a dictatorship? Well, maybe you could argue that they are still deciding that a dictator is what they want. But in general, no matter how a country is run, this does not really give you any ground to interfere with it, whether or not you like how the country is run. If [substantially] more than half of the population asks you to help because they want the country run differently but nobody in power listens, then you might have a basis for action.


that opinion is ridiculous. Based on your assumption then don't help Ukraine against Russia because both are sovereign nations, and the Nazis is Germany where a decision of germans so fighting them was 'wrong'. I'm Cuban and my family, friends and everyone I know have and are continuously suffering that regime. You are the one who cannot tell me that I'm wrong and you are siding with the dictator.


You realize that there is a difference between interfering in a country and fighting back an attacking country? The case of Ukraine is especially cynical, first the west brought them into this position, now they are using them to slowly wear down Russia. Send them enough weapons not to lose, but not enough to win. Eventually they will settle for Ukraine not joining NATO, with Russia heavily weakened and Ukraine destroyed, the winner will be USA.

And I am not siding with a dictator, I am opposing what the USA does. Do you think what they are doing is the best way to achieve change? If they really wanted the government to be gone, they would long have joined the fate of Hussain.


"During my participation in LACNIC 19 in Medellin, Colombia, a few months later, I was introduced to the Director of ETECSA, who confessed that his engineers fixed the asymmetric routing snafu after seeing my blog post. You never know who’s reading your stuff!"

Or, maybe, your HN comment.


The USA should really be embarrassed about how they treat Cuba, bullying at the lowest level for no good reason. And the rest of the world because it caves in and goes along with this bullshit.


At this point, the US Department keeps them as an example for other countries. If you don't fall in line, then you becomes like Cuba.

Likewise, the US is all about sovereignty of nations that border an enemy (Russia, China). But get within the hemisphere of the US and not be US aligned? You get the Cuba / Venezuela treatment.


ETECSA, the only ISP in the country which is an extension of its police arm and has no boundaries on privacy or anything there, fines its users 3000 cuban pesos (a full month's salary) for posting on Facebook, Twitter or anywhere anything against the government. A meme? you get a police citation and a fine, and that's just the first punishment.


Here is something about this kind of countries: They are very corrupt and people find their way around thanks to the corruption. Here is something else: Business finds its ways.

When I was on holiday in Cuba shortly before Castro's death, as with everything in the country, have seen that those with access to the government(public sector employees, military or students) have healthy access to the internet and the rest have ridiculously expensive and limited internet.

It's fascinating place really. The guy I rented a casa particular in Havana was in process of building his hostel empire on AirBnB from his office in a government building. His girlfriend was studying computer science and was well versed on the internet culture. In front of their house is Estadio Panamericano, and is a public place with ridiculously expensive ETECSA Wi-Fi which is the only way to connect to the internet if you are a tourist or not-privileged. People having video chat when crying and military dropping by occasionally to check if everything is alright. They also have some sort of network for sharing movies/music and gaming within the city.

I'm still confused on how to feel about Cuba.


Some members of society have special privileges? I'm glad we don't have that in the US. Cuba has a higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality rate, and a higher literacy rate than the US. They also have more guaranteed rights for women, LGBTQ, and minorities than the US. Cuba has stood pretty well on its own considering the decades of crushing sanctions. Compare it to any other Caribbean nation.


Russia said they are winning the war too. Must be true, right?


I wasn’t comparing with the US or any other country. Anyway, I still don’t know how to feel about Cuba because there were many things that I liked.


Owner of starbucks grew up in the projects. I doubt you see that level of mobility in your cuban utopia. And I'm glad that cuba isn't putting gay people into labor camps and forced re-education anymore. Nice.


Today Cuba is the most socially progressive country in the western hemisphere. There was a time when they put gay people in jail but that was the same time. Alan Turing was castrated for being gay in the UK.

Sure, You won't become a billionaire in Cuba, but you also don't have to worry about health care, homelessness, food insecurity, education, etc.


Delete Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas. Are your claims still true?


I've visited Cuba and lived in Brazil. The desperation you see in Brazil for much of the population isn't there in Cuba. The people are very poor but they have access to food regardless of their income levels. Cubans are some of the most highly educated people in the world. It's a police state and there are awful things about the corruption. And things are much worse in many other Latin American countries that are pro-US. I would say the impacts of poverty are worse in the US even if you withdraw those states. In absolute terms Americans are richer but in terms of healthcare and general well being, what I saw 20 years ago was that Cubans have it better.


Still not a justification for blockade. Saudis give 16 year prison sentences to US citizens for mild government criticism in their tweets and the US does not sanction them: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/american-sentenced-16-yea...


should be thankful they’re being shielded from the evils of capitalism


The beatings will continue until morale improves. (You get to decide whether this refers to the US or Cuba or both.)


This article very nicely illustrates how much of politics is built on bullshit.

It completely destroys the argument that a Cuban cable is “a threat to national security”.

A recommended read, both for the rebuttal as the technical details.


Besides the Cuban community in the US, which I believe are mostly in Flordia, who still cares about cutting off Cuba?

They haven't changed due to the US embargo for decades. So what is the point?

This is another example of a small group of loud people that hold sway over a national policy.


Cuba is a modern day Masada. These rebels cannot be allowed in the shadow of the empire. The brutal sanctions ensure that they serve as an example of the suffering that will come to anybody who does not submit.


Masada was crushed in a brutal invasion. The 21st-century US Military is phenomenal at invading countries (look at the rapid falls of Iraq, Afghanistan, and ISIS, we are substantially worse at occupation but that’s besides the point). If we wanted to crush Cuba we would have done it the second communism fell.

The reason we still have an embargo on Cuba is because pro-embargo Cuban-American refugees are a huge minority of a swing state, and sending a child away from his abusive father to Cuba literally cost the Democrats the 2000 election (incidentally leading to at least 2 of those 3 invasions). Arguably, a stupid technicality like that is worse than if it was a Masada-type situation, but what can you do


The families on Masada killed themselves before the Romans broke in with their constructed ramp.


And those who do submit can look forward to being more like Haiti.


There is one other segment of the USA which likely loves the embargo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_sugar_economy


> They haven't changed due to the US embargo for decades. So what is the point?

Precedent, I assume. If you start an embargo or other sanctions, and then drop it when the entity shows that they're not going to back down, you're sending a signal to others: show that you're not going to back down and we'll drop the sanctions because what's the point? And that will dull the blade of the threat.

It's similar to negotiating with hostage takers and terrorists. Once you do it, you encourage everyone to take hostages in order to "negotiate" whatever they want done.


I think keeping an embargo and hurting a country for 60 years is enough to send a signal. In any case, the US government isn't doing it motivated by some intertemporal consistency (and thinking of the next 200 years of foreign policy), they do it for the cuban swing voters


> Besides the Cuban community in the US, which I believe are mostly in Flordia, who still cares about cutting off Cuba?

Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-only-country-at-un-to-j...


Seven years ago they voted no on a nonbinding resolution that was doomed to fail. I doubt they care.


what's your point supporting dictators? The people who dismiss the embargo knows nothing of history and they will repeat the same mistakes. EVERY cuban that manages to escape that prison island supports the embargo (except few loud lobbies of the cuban government).


> what's your point supporting dictators?

Where was the US embargo when Saudi dictatorship murdered and dismembered a journalist on foreign soil?

Sounds like you k ow nothing of history, US currently supports about 20 dictators around the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khash...


The US supports brutal dictators all around the world and has for decades. Cuba just didn't play nice with american business interests. Season 2 of the podcast Blowback covers our history with Cuba incredibly well.


> what's your point supporting dictators?

When we support most dictators in the world, but embargo Cuba, it sounds less like a moral stance, and more like hypocrisy.

The actual, reason for the embargo, of course, is not a moral stance, or a hypocritical one. It is simply courting Cuban voters[1] in Florida.

In Canada, this kind of phenomenon is called 'America sneezes, we catch a cold.'

[1] Now that Florida's fully fallen off the spectrum of reasonable politics, those voters may well become less relevant for both parties.


it stinks democrat here


Can you explain why, for those of us 8000km away?


The Cuban Americans in Florida are strongly opposed to opening up to Cuba. To get their support Republicans tend to be opposed to these changes.


Probably for the same reason that Germans escaping the Worker's Paradise that was the German Democratic Republic (aka East Germany) weren't big fans of the communist dictatorship that tried to murder them for wanting to emigrate and was extremely corrupt, extremely authoritarian and often looked like they missed the point of 1984 and read it as an instruction manual.


Cuban government has a huge network of spies in the US and is ALWAYS targeting U.S Is a torpedo of the Russians, North Koreans, Venezuela and Iran. On top of that more internet cables will not improve access for the cuban people, will only empower that dictatorship to do more evil. The dictators know internet is its doom and they do all they can to restrict the access to its own people and cut it completely. The article ingenuity on why internet development in Cuba was so slow for years despite the cable being active is evidence on how intellectuals living in democracy are disconnected from the brutalism of the most ancient dictatorship in the America's.


These sentences seem incongruous.

> On top of that more internet cables will not improve access for the cuban people, will only empower that dictatorship to do more evil.

> The dictators know internet is its doom and they do all they can to restrict the access to its own people and cut it completely.


> is ALWAYS targeting U.S Is a torpedo of the Russians, North Koreans, Venezuela and Iran.

Where is the proof for these preposterous claims that North Korea and Russia are in bed together?



okay - so lets develop the question - what is the damage all of them have managed to inflict on USA through Cuban targeting, whatever that means?


This is some serious cold war propaganda. Consider some alternate history sources.


the Cold War never ended for the cuban dictators. Consider living there.


Castro and Che were very clear early on they welcomed the embargo.

They wanted to create an alternate society, and saw capitalist trade as corrupting.

It’s ironic Cuban leaders are whining about things aren’t working well because capitalists won’t trade with them.

Edit: Che even cited America’s early protectionist trade policy as something to emulate.


I’m pretty sure there’s a high speed internet connection to the US base at Guantanamo Bay - which is a part of Cuba.


Here's a question posed recently for which I did not have a good answer, maybe someone here can take a shot at it.

If the US has an embargo against Cuba because it is a communist country. Why does the US trade with China, and up until recently Russia?

I gave the whole Nixon tried another approach with China (which also didn't work), but it fell flat as many things show that the US is still very actively pursuing this embargo hurting the Cuban people.


It's for two main reasons:

- We have a ton of Cuban exiles (very opposed to the regime) who are in a very geographically important location in Florida voting-wise

- The cost of an embargo against Cuba is minimal since Cuba doesn't have that much industry of interest


There is a very interesting monograph about the geopolitics of the United Sates put out by StratFor.

You can find a copy here:

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/163960/The%20Geopolitics%20of%...

Based on this analysis, it turns out that New Orleans is the most strategically located city in North America because it controls the mouth of the Mississippi River. This has been recognized for a long time which is why Thomas Jefferson did the Louisiana Purchase, the British attacked New Orleans at the end of the War of 1812 and why the US wanted Texas so much (to defend New Orleans.

It turns out if you look at a map that the island of Cuba can potentially controls the path of any shipments leaving New Orleans and headed to the rest of the world.

Thus the US either needs to have a friendly regime in Cuba or if unfriendly, one that is weak enough not to be a threat.

There is no such calculus with China and Russia. A strong China or Russia is not a direct threat to the US homeland.

So the embargo is more about great power realpolitik and geopolitics more so than about communism.


So I think you and the military think tank are saying that if this little country could become powerful enough, it could attack US ships transiting the Mississippi. Going to war with US by attacking its merchant vessels seems an insane thing to do for even a larger and closer country such as Mexico. I struggle to follow this justification for the sanctions.


Yeah, it's preposterous. It's not 1812 and the US has effectively no threats in its hemisphere.


Thus the US either needs to have a friendly regime in Cuba or if unfriendly, one that is weak enough not to be a threat.

I vaguely remember the USA saying something last year about Russia not having any rights to impose its interest on the sovereign Ukraine...


Calling power hypocritical shows a deep misunderstanding of speech. When someone in power speaks, their purpose is strategic. It is not possible to be hypocritical because the beliefs were never held in the first place.


This is a misunderstanding of hypocrisy - not believing what you say, does not absolve you from being hypocritical [1][2], it just makes you untrustworthy and maybe a liar in addition.

If you were correct, things would be even worse - congratulation USA for consciously having the blood of all Ukrainian and Russian soldiers and civilians on your hands.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_hypocrisy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy


From the “Political Hypocrisy” Wikipedia article, which although itself is not really accurate for common usage in the present time, says: “ Political hypocrisy or hypocrisy in policy refers to any discrepancy between what a political party claims and the practices the party is trying to hide. “ There’s nothing that’s attempted to be hidden in strategic speech, because the purpose is not to communicate facts (whether true or false). It’s purpose is to acquire support from the public. That’s not a secret!

Yes your description of the situation in Eastern Europe is accurate, although I would remove the emotive language and note that there are multiple parties responsible besides USG, and USG’s purposes are more aligned with the welfare of Ukrainian citizens excluding Russian ethnic minorities than the administrators of the Russian federation.


I think you should not get hung up on the term of political speech. Is their a discrepancy between what standards the USA tries to hold others to and its own actions? If yes, that is something I am happy to label hypocrisy. If, for example, you insist that international law must be followed but ignore it yourself if it is inconvenient or against your interests, that is - in my book - hypocrisy and there is no political speech involved.


The standard that USG holds others to is not complex- it’s “might makes right”. The areas where USG backs down from its interest are fully in line with this ideology- cases where local authorities, political groups, or competitor nation states are able to pose a credible threat to military supremacy. That’s not to say USG is morally in the wrong, all successful states operate along this principle.


The standard that USG holds others to is not complex- it’s “might makes right”.

Which is, at a fundamental level, correct - every law can be broken but the laws of physics. But nobody forces you to use your power to achieve immoral goals, so while you need power, you are still free to decide how to use it.

That’s not to say USG is morally in the wrong, all successful states operate along this principle.

That is wrong, success does not imply morality.

But we started at hypocrisy and if your premise is might make right but you deny other countries this premise, then you are hypocritical. North Korea building nuclear weapons is just them following this premise, so instead of saying North Korea is bad, they should say we understand, they just want some of this might makes right, too. You could still oppose them, because it is in conflict with your might, but then you would at least no longer be hypocritical. And I fully understand why they don't do it, they have a much better image if they maintain the we are good, they are bad narrative, but this exactly what makes them hypocritical, hypocritical in what they do and say, not necessarily in what they actually belief.


No accusation of communism is ever about communism.


the fact that U.S and many governments do immoral businesses with other dictatorships does not justify dealing with dictators. Is bad it does business with china, period. It says nothing about Cuba embargo, which btw does not involves medicine and food.


> Why does the US trade with China, and up until recently Russia?

As long as the profit kerps flowing, i see no issue here. /s


> If the US has an embargo against Cuba because it is a communist country. Why doesn't it trade with China, and up until recently Russia?

The US's foreign policy (like most foreign policies) is defined by expediency, and doing business with China is definitely more expedient both in the abstract and in a historical context than business with Cuba.

(Besides, the US didn't do very much business with Russia when it was communist. Business picked up after Russia ceased to be communist, under a doctrine of rapid economic liberalization that the US encouraged and helped enact.)


Russia has not been Communist in name or practice for decades. What are you talking about?


The people saying what's the point of the embargo has literally no idea what they are talking about. The current dictators in Cuba are the SAME dictators who confiscated U.S citizen business, houses, industries and properties in Cuba in the 60's WITHOUT COMPENSATION and has constantly over the years treated Americans and the capitalism as the root of all evil. The cuban government is actively spying and making deals with Russia (btw the cuban government sided with Russia in the ucranian invasion) with China during Tiananmen's plaza massacre, with North Korea and a long etc. You simply do not do business with thieves. They are not a normal government, they are a mafia in control of an island and its citizens kidnaped. Lifting the embargo would be empowering them much more.


It is important to not forget the historical context of what the US was doing in Cuba from 1933-1959. In short we supported a military coup and then propped up a dictator as american organized crime effectively took over administration of the island and transformed it into "America's playground" where middle aged businessmen would travel for underage sex tourism etc. Cubans were being robbed blind under the oppressive thumb of a foreign adversary and were rightly pissed off. I'm not claiming the current state of things is "good," but make no mistake it's vastly better than where the US once sought to keep them.


> The cuban government is actively ... making deals with Russia, China

After you embargoed them, who are they suppose to make deals with, tooth fairy?

> confiscated U.S citizen business in Cuba in the 60's WITHOUT COMPENSATION

"On July 26, 1941, President Franklin Roosevelt seizes all Japanese assets in the United States in retaliation for the Japanese occupation of French Indo-China. "

I am glad we finally got to the root of the issue - all about money.


How did those US citizens acquire their property?


the same way you acquired yours...by trading, business, working, family. Or are you implying they simply stole it? I don't see you protesting in the White House asking for all Americans to return the land to the natives or do you?


Oh no, people lost their slave plantations and mob casinos? Once you learn about the business that were lost, it's hard to say anything other than good riddance.


Yes we know. And thanks to that we have the political freak show that is Florida.

Ending the embargo would let the American wheels of commerce grind the Cuban communists into the ground. New rich people can buy the old sugar mills and build resorts and setup medical tourism businesses.

Giving the descendants of Cuban emigres back old sugar farms or whatever is one of the more insane policy provisions possible. Cuban power in Florida will wane as the state political balance continues its shift right and maybe we’ll do something intelligent.


Just like the wheels of commerce ground China's CCP to the ground?


Nixon’s rapprochement of China certainly progressed in a more positive way from the nightmare of the great cultural revolution.

Especially compared to a isolated state like North Korea.


Not a comparable situation. At all.




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