I'd like to add a bit of personal perspective to this op-ed.
I personally know the author, Jon Levine, in fact, I'm the guy that got him the "dead-end job" with my family's firm. He's a member of the "I have an Ivy League degree, I deserve a job" a set. Never mind his degree was in history and political science, he felt entitled to a prestigious, high paying job in the worse economy in 70 years.
After a 5 month job search without a callback, I stepped in, did a favor and got him an entry level position at a very small PR firm. This was not a "dead-end job", he was the first hire at a newly formed company, there was definitely an opportunity for him to grow his career in a highly lucrative field. But, being that he went to NYU and Columbia (notice the name dropping in the article), growth didn't come fast enough for him.
We accommodated him (time off, flexible hours) while he spent two months trying to find another job. When nothing stateside panned out, he gave us three days notice before leaving for China. It's been a very surreal day for me, I'm incredibly disappointed that he chose to criticize a job which he only gained through my action.
I don't know whether any of you should go to China, but hopefully I've given you a little perspective on why he did.
TL;DR: I know author, he couldn't hack it stateside, took China job as last restort, not as some enlightened life decision.
What you did to help seems very friendly and supportive, but it's apparent to me that you're taking out some unmentioned frustrations in this post. Truly, it sucks to give someone a shot and not get the thanks you deserve for that. This guy sounds like a flake.
I still think that it's possible that you did a nice, commendable thing to help him, AND it was a dead-end job to him. It sounds like changing things up was exactly what he needed. Also, moving to a (very) foreign country to make a living doesn't sound easy- I think it's easier for me to "hack it" here in Silicon Valley than to move overseas in search of happiness.
I'll admit that the base pay wasn't great, though most compensation was bonus based, and the work load was chaotic (very busy one day, nothing for four days), but here's a timeline and I'll let you judge:
He joined us in August...
We launched in November...
He started shopping for another job in January...
He quit in February...
He is my girlfriend's childhood friend's younger brother. After doing a year of postgrad at Columbia, he spent April to August looking for job, which did not pan out. I was putting together all of the tech for this firm, I knew they had an entry level position.
There was no interview process, no whiteboards, no nothing, I said "Hire this guy, he's hard working and smart, and look at those prestigious degrees!" They met him and then offered to hire him next day. So, this guy went from no call backs in a five month job search to being offered a job after a single interview.
Of course he felt that we were under utilizing his skills (he felt like a glorified secretary), but PR is a networking business, clients want to talk to the guy they've worked with for 20 years, not some dude who started a month ago.
I don't mean to drag all this out into the public, but, this op-ed is the definition of adding insult to injury. I like to make connections, if I know about an opportunity, I really enjoy putting people together. It's something I've always done and now I'm going to question myself every time because this blew up so badly.
> I'll admit that the base pay wasn't great, though most compensation was bonus based, and the work load was chaotic (very busy one day, nothing for four days), but here's a timeline and I'll let you judge:
What you're describing does kind of sound like some type of a dead-end job. Little pay, fucked up hours, chaotic environment.
> He joined us in August... We launched in November... He started shopping for another job in January... He quit in February...
Sounds like he stuck it out for as long as he could. Two months with no pay will do that.
> I don't mean to drag all this out into the public, but, this op-ed is the definition of adding insult to injury.
All this over one line that names no-one...?
"NOT long ago, I was stuck in a dead-end job near Greenwich, Conn."
I know exactly what you mean. I have also vouched for someone in the past and watched it flame out. I try not to let it cause me to be less generous in the future.
Not to mention he is experiencing China in the most boring way possible. Going to a country to teach English is great if you are looking to offset the cost of a vacation, but is hardly a long-term career path. Not only are you not learning anything new, but your job is to distance yourself from the culture you are living in. You're certainly not going to learn much Chinese, and the only culture you learn is the kind that needs to be 'corrected' to interact with your home country.
Not so true. Being teaching English means he will meet many interesting young Chinese. The danger is to eat burgers everyday and stick with a bunch of foreigners. Still, it is ok as a first step. Better go to inner cities.
Although I do think this guy is naive and should reserve judgement until he has had real time to reflect, I don't think there is a tremendous difference between managing people's perceptions vs. managing a career. As it has been since ancient times, much of your success will be based on family and social ties, which are themselves mostly built on perception. We as techies like to imagine the world as entirely merit based, but of course business remains an inherently human enterprise.
I don't know what kind of career you're talking about, but as a software dev, you just come to an interview, get a job and earn a living. No family or social ties are involved.
Even if you expect to be a software developer the rest of your working life, there are a lot of job opportunities that won't be available if you don't network - even if you're brilliant, there might be another guy just as good as you, but who got the referral instead of you (and that's being optimistic and a bit naïve and believing that it's all merit-based).
I got my first taste from this mindset two days ago: An undergrad from Wharton sends me a Facebook PM saying he loves my startup, wants to work for me.
We go on a Skype call where he keeps on boasting on how he is "special even among Wharton people" and how he can "help me get millions in funding".
I tell him I don't need funding and that he can help me do biz dev and he'll get a generous commission, than he says he needs "co-founder" status for that. End of call.
Thanks for the personal perspective, it's very interesting considering how inflammatory the article is written. I've seen a lot of the Ivy League "I deserve a cushy 200k+ job" mindset, I'm just disappointed this guy didn't get a reality check before leaving
"I was in my early 20s, overeducated with a series of non-performing degrees from New York University and Columbia, and frustrated"
I think the author acknowledged that...
Everybody has their own side of story. While I respect your side of story, his side of story was that he's frustrated with the way of life in the USA and he went east to China.
Whether he can hack it in USA today, tomorrow, or in the future, who knows. But he made his mind up and move to China. That takes a lot of guts.
By reading the article I've got an impression of a successful escape from wage slavery. But the thing that struck me as odd is his new job in the promised land. How teaching English in China is not a dead-end job? I mean, one day you teach English to Chinese students, and suddenly you ... teach English to more Chinese students?
I didn't move to China, but Korea, working for a large conglomerate. I was there for two years. I wasn't particularly young, but in early 30's with two kids. There were several expat from the US.
IMHO, the move to the East is worse for Asian Americans than for Caucasians.
Why? Because they expect certain things from what they consider the same race than Caucasians. Over and over, I have seen Caucasians getting a lot of leeways and tolerance for their behaviors, as they look very different from Asian Americans. For Asian Americans, especially those Korean Americans who could speak the language in Korea, they expected the same behaviors as native Koreans. If you don't display what they expected socially, you get cold shoulders. It's even worse in business settings where everyone plays savvy office politics in ever subtle ways. If you can't read or play them, your career will not go anywhere. I've seen VP-level Korean American guys getting crushed, after moving to Korea to jumpstart their careers. I've heard the same from many Japanese Americans who moved back to Japan. I am not sure if it would be the same in China. But, I've also read about Chinese companies hiring Americans or Caucasians for nothing but to increase their credibility for being able to hire a Caucasian.
So if you are a Caucasian, yeah, it could be worth it. As a second or later generation Asian Americans, probably not so much.
Caucasian and male. Single female expats don't seem to stay very long. There are way more male expats, and even dorky ones tend to date pretty locals. The expat nightlife and social scene is not something that is appealing to most women.
+1 for this, it sucks being a westernized Asian precisely because you're getting squeezed in between 2 cultures when you try to work in Asia. China is worse than Korea or Japan, if you are ethnically Chinese then you can expect to be treated as a Chinese Citizen in China.
I haven't tried to work there but when I am in China I basically 'act local'. I wouldn't think about working there because as you said I would get crushed politically and socially in an office environment as my language skills wouldn't be up to par and my thought processes would be too Western when I would be expected to act Chinese.
Curious if you think there are any places somewhere globally where being a Westernized Asian is advantageous the way being a Caucasion is advantageous in Asia.
Also a Westernized Chinese here. It's hard to say that there are any solid "advantages" - there simply are too many Chinese people (especially in North America) who are over-achieving to stand out. Plus, it's pretty well documented that affirmative action / diversity programs are actually a detriment to ethnic Asians because of the competition.
I can't really think of a place where it would be a straightforward advantage. Of course there are other perks being from two cultures and speaking two languages, especially in formation of relations and bridging some cultural gaps.
Edit: I also want to point out that the view that being Caucasian is good for business in China is a bit naive. Sure, they want to attract foreign investment and present a good side to the world, but that doesn't stop the fact that many locals are still suspicious of the West and many of the smaller towns harbour racist tendencies.
In my experience, of all the places in the world I've been to, California (and specifically SF) is probably the most progressive and best place for Westernized Asians to be. It's the one place where the bad stereotypes have withered away leaving us with the good stereotypes (well educated, hard-working, low-crime, high achievement), the whole model minority thing.
Anecdotally speaking, sorry I don't research this, it's the place where I've seen the most Asians of all ethnicities in politics, as C-level executives in addition to the usual fields of achievement in Medicine and Finance. It's also the place where I've noticed the most AM/WF couples.
I'm from Sydney which probably has another 20 years, a full generation to catch up to Cali. I've only ever been to Canada for short holidays so I don't know what it's like up there but the vibe I got in the 2 big anglophone cities was good.
And then at the other end of the spectrum I've been to South America, Eastern Europe where they think 'slanty eyes, yellow skin, must be Japanese Businessman! Konichiwaa!!!' lol
I'm going to try really hard to make my kids bi-cultural as well as bi-lingual, I guess the only way to do that though is to make them live in China for large tracts of time in their formative years.
Oh at the end of all of this I forgot, Singapore is great place to be for Westernized Asians
>Many critics have rightly pointed out the shocking failures of the Chinese food safety system — the most famous being the tainted-baby-formula scandal of 2008. But what you may not know is that China meted out swift justice in that case to the perpetrators. That is more than can be said for the handling of many corporations in the United States that have harmed their consumers and remain unpunished.
Wow, what a naive fool. Does he really think justice was meted out through these hurried executions? Quick justice is often a symptom of scapegoating.
Exactly. If you like this kind of "swift justice" you're going to love China, I guess.
The comparison between Fox News and CCTV is ridiculous as well - Fox might suck, but it's not a government channel and is only one voice in a wide spectrum of US media.
It's one thing when you read this naive BS, from entitled middle class Westerners who never even met anyone who actually dealt with the harsh side of an authoritarian regime, in Reddit or HN. To see this in the NY Times is truly disappointing.
I agree, this guy really hasn't seen the ugly side of China if he's writing like this. It's a scary goddamn place, and as much as everyone on Reddit/HN complains about the US, we're still lightyears ahead of China horror stories.
No, horror stories like infants dying of tainted baby formula because farmers tried to increase the protein count of their milk (by lacing it with a known poison). Like a child dying from being run over twice by cars because nobody thought to pick him out of the street. Like parents abandoning or killing newborn girls because they wanted a boy. Like criminals enslaving young men to work at brick kilns. Every once in the while, there might be some lunatic gunman in the US (as there are in every other country). In China, there is a pervasive sense that human life is cheap.
(See what I did there? Stop being so blindly nationalistic--admit that China has some pretty heinous issues re: food safety and consumer safety/confidence [fair or not])
Instead, I'd say come to Taiwan. All the same good food (or rather even more!), friendly people, great nature, multicultural society, technology everywhere, foreigners are treated well, entrepreneurial spirit, more customer protection (and people stand up for themselves) - and don't have to fight the Great Firewall and political decrees at every step.
(Been here for more than three years and counting:)
Been there. Done that (twice). My two three-year stays in Taiwan were some of the happiest days of my life, and both times led to new career opportunities when I returned to the United States. Taiwan is wonderful for immersion in an entrepreneurial, forward-looking culture of people who are happy to live free.
I did the same thing -- two three-year stints in Taiwan (separated by six months in China and SE Asia). I arrived in 1993 with a duffel bag and about $1000, and proceeded to make a life there. The learning curve was steep, but it was wonderful. I learned Mandarin, got my career off the ground, made tons of expat and local friends, traveled all over, and generally had a fantastic, eye-opening adventure.
Come, look around. You can stay for a couple of months (I think visitor visa is 2 months and renewable with a quick trip abroad and back).
It's very quick to connect to people in the tech field, there are a lot of networking events where you can meet very interesting people and everyone's looking out for new opportunities.
Startup Weekend, Mobile Monday, Geek Dinner (this last one organized by me), and many other. You can also check Startup Digest http://startupdigest.com/taipei/
It's really a tech filled country, with many interesting but also weird characteristics, that definitely make it both tough and full of opportunities. :)
If you ever come, just give me a shout (same username at gmail) :)
In general, multinational high tech companies (like Acer, Asus, HTC) supposed to be always hiring, but there are a lot more opportunities, I think. Probably the best is to come for a while, immerse in the environment and see whether you like it, whether you like the people and connections here.
It's really quick to make new local and foreign friends here.
Can you only do the usual teaching-English gig or can you actually get decent and well-paying IT or managing jobs? How open are people to foreigners? Are you actually considered about "equivalent"? What about health care, social insurance, safety? What about finding a partner there? I know a lot of Chinese girls, especially here in EU, have to obey their families telling them to NOT be with a local European.
Article's espousal of moving "East" here seems a little misguided to me. I've been working in Beijing for the better part of 2yrs and from what I've seen, basically wouldn't suggest moving out here unless you're in it for the long-haul.
The "white-hot" job prospects the author talks about are mainly for English teachers. If you take a look at the job sites he listed, 90%+ of the positions are English teaching.
That is all well and good as most Eng teachers here DO make easy money, enjoy a good lifestyle, and get to explore Asia, but all the while they are really just killing time... most leave after not too long and very few are able to succesfully use it as a channel to career advancement/development.
The people who should really think about moving East are those who have developed some real skills & experience other than just being a "Native English speaker", and know there will be some kind of deep-relationship with Asia throughout their careers. I would think that these people are likely to learn the language, stay longer, and do a lot better.
For CS grads or people in tech, if you make the move to one of the larger int'l companies you can make up to 3/4 of the salary back home and live a better lifestyle, AND end up saving more.
Again, like other's have said, it's not for everyone, but for some it can be a great move.
Levine takes an approach to China very much in contrast to my own. From the article, it seems he spends most of his time travelling, relaxing with other expats, and teaching students that are excited about English. As for myself, most of my time is consumed by studying Chinese (a Mercer-like feat), work, and meals with friends (the cheap food costs make dinners out an everyday occurrence, not a once a week treat).
Despite the differences, we both seem to possess the same feeling that life in China possesses a relaxed quality that is hard to find. Even though banks, train tickets, and anything requiring an ID (for instance, internet cafes) can be a complete bureaucratic nightmare, day to day life has a certain peacefulness to it. Perhaps that peacefulness stems from the acceptance that the world around you is hectic and chaotic in a way that is at least somewhat hidden in the U.S.
Of course, other posters are correct in their assertion that you pay for that life in a number of ways. Pollution, reduced wages, poor internet, drinking water from jugs, hospitals operating while still under construction...But I for one feel it is worth it.
For those who have not, I strongly urge you to visit the country. I think you may be surprised by how much it differs from your expectations.
As an aside, I find it humorous that the OWS movement inspired him to move to China. The income inequality here is arguably worse than in his own area. You can buy a scarf on the street for 3 USD, walk a few kilometers and buy one for 100 USD inside a glitzy shopping center. Those at the top live lives of princely luxury compared to those at the bottom selling roasted sweet potatoes from their bikes.
"Even though banks, train tickets, and anything requiring an ID (for instance, internet cafes) can be a complete bureaucratic nightmare, day to day life has a certain peacefulness to it. Perhaps that peacefulness stems from the acceptance that the world around you is hectic and chaotic"
Yes! That's my experience as well. I lived in Hong Kong as well, where you can experience Chinese culture in an international city, eat whatever cuisine you want, and enjoy a very convenient lifestyle. High-class shopping centres, fun nightlife, and the MTR runs like a Swiss watch.
Still, I didn't like it as much as Chengdu, which is sprawling, polluted and a nightmare to get around. But living there was strangely relaxed and adventurous - anything can happen, so you don't try to fight it.
"Pollution is horrible, the country is governed by a strict authoritarian regime, and I can't guarantee you won't be poisoned, but come! There are jobs!"
I am 100% sure China is as socially diverse as the United States, and there are lovely people and places. Really though, this is about as tepid a "come hither" piece as I've ever seen.
Also, the government does totally not fake numbers, does not actively buy cars and other products to create temporary, fake demand spikes to attract western companies to produce in China but only under license in a Chinese owned and -run factory oh and personally I am totally not convinced that they just downright play with the global economy and bend our own Western capitalism to their advantage in very questionable ways.
I have worked in Beijing for more than 4 years as a researcher for a big American company (Microsoft). Its not that bad here but you definitely have to fight the traffic, pollution, and the great firewall. The political situation is mostly transparent to us, except via web blocking and some weird archaic events (military parades anyone?). Other places in China are a bit better in terms of environment but then those cities are not as comfortable in western niceties (e.g., coffee shops).
If you are experienced in tech, you can always get a job here that pays fairly well; maybe 80% of what you could make back home if you are just a good developer, more if you are very experienced or in management. The talent market in China is very skewed toward junior workers, and so experience is very much desired. The tech scene here is not very deep, although their are some entrepreneurs who do startups (most of them that I know of are in mobile gaming).
I was working out of Dalian and Beijing for a number of years straight after my postgrad as a software engineer / project manager. Great experience, learned the language, was given a lot of responsibility and it was either sink or swim.
Lots of 16+ hour days, they worked me hard but I learned an awful lot. It's a great way to see the world, travel and get exposed to a completely different work culture / ethic.
It's not for everyone but it is definitely an experience that you won't forget!
Surprised no-one here is talking about programming/startup jobs in China. I know there is a small Chinese-based hacker set on HN, so maybe they'll show up later to chime in with more expert opinions.
Basically I've been planning for a few years to make China the focus of my 20s, thinking that being at the convergence of technology and a rising superpower would be pretty powerful. Taught English there in 2007, travelled there again in 2009, studied in HK in 2010 and interned for a games startup in Chengdu last year.
Still, my current plan for the next few years is to stay in the UK - the main reason is that salaries for programmers in China just aren't that attractive. Also, if you want a serious career in China (in whatever sector - counting entrepreneurship as a career here) - a lot of people have advised me that it helps to gain a track record in the West before making a serious move out there.
Note: the following is a mix of experience, second-hand reports and conjecture, I'd really appreciate someone in the know telling me where I'm wrong.
As a graduate programmer competing with Chinese graduates, it looks like salaries are between 5000 and 10000 RMB/mo, depending on location. If you can somehow leverage your foreignerness, you can get more, though I can't think of many ways to do that in the tech industry. Experienced technical management is in high demand, but not really an option straight out of university. Joining a big tech company (Tencent, Baidu, Shanda etc) and hoping to work your way up isn't that great an option, since there's no reason you'll be able to outcompete your hungrier Chinese colleagues. Joining a startup, maybe, but you'll still have to find a way to contribute beyond programming to make a better salary than the next FOB laowai teaching English or pretending to be a DJ. Starting a startup is of course an option, but even riskier out there (I'd feel able to start a tech startup in the West right now, wouldn't think of doing it in China without a few more years real-world experience).
Anyone actually working in China's tech industry with alternative views? Would love to hear them.
I make much more than 10K a month in Beijing without leveraging my foreign-ness, most of my Chinese colleagues pull similar salaries. A new graduate from a decent school could expect to make 18 or 20K a month, a newly minted PhD probably more. Laowai startups here often don't pay well and look for low-end talent accordingly, its nice to access low-end talent but you get what you pay for. For my friends who run startups in the 'jing, it works for them but just barely.
One of my American friends just did a stint at a big Chinese tech company. He was willing to immerse himself, but the cultural differences were just too great. They had time cards for software developers for crying out loud (and no, it wasn't a consulting company)! Suffice it to say he's decided to do a startup.
I've been working in tech in Beijing for 9 years. Many multinational companies will give you a bit of a bump (perhaps in the form of a higher working grade) since you're from overseas, but it's not huge. To earn that, the company might expect you to help with communication/project management.
One tactic I've seen work in professional services (lawyers, accounts I've met here) is to just take whatever job you can find when you show up, and then, after a year, once you've built a bit of a network and have proven you can hack it in China, to move on to something that pays more.
Another option is to do something entrepreneurial. I know folks who source products from China that they then sell online via their own e-commerce sites.
I had your gameplan, but in the late 1990s. Spent a couple years in China, struggled with a number of issues, including significant cultural and language barriers with the local programming team.
My advice: only go to China as a expatriate hire with an established multinational firm.
As far as economic disparity between rich and poor, social liberties, and corruption: China is far, far worse than the US. Maybe some people can find jobs in China teaching English, but you throw away a lot of other things. This article is optimistic at best.
> As far as economic disparity between rich and poor, social liberties, and corruption: China is far, far worse than the US
Citation? The only data I can find, shows they are on par with disparity between rich and poor. What data are you sourcing that conclusion from?
Social liberties, very difficult to measure. But I am interested to why you think China is far worse? If you mean they have less "Rights" (from the US Bill of Rights)... then that is probably true of most countries. But in terms of Social mobility, I'd intuitively say that china probably compares favourably to the US
Corruption is certainly an issue, China (75th) ranking far worse than the US (25th) on the Corruption Perception Index[1]. But keeping in mind it is a perception index, and doesn't adjust for bias.
I don't think the article is optimistic, I think it's realistic, China is a booming economy with a lot of job opportunities for "Westerners", compared to the US, with it's shrinking (or shrunken) economy...
I'm seeing the same data you are; China and the U.S. look about the same in terms of wealth and income distribution within their respective populations. Wikipedia provides a handy reference:
Sure, it's optimistic, but he admits it's not for everybody. I think when people have been unemployed for a long time, they become more willing to take risks.
as a new us immigrant who is originally from mainland china and lives in the us for 1.5 years, I have a totally different opinion with this article. the advice I always give my friends who still live in china is 'leave china as soon as possible, for yourself and your family'.
Saying cctv gave fair news just make me laugh. and food was great? he didn't know the extracted oil from drain or dead animal? the freedom you have in china is to download pirated softwares/videos and make your free speech when facing the wall. well, those were just my complaints, but what I didn't agree with this guy was he didn't see the big picture. china is now facing a dead end, and I don't see a way to turn around. the big conflict between gov and citizens, the huge gap between rich and poor, the aging population....
I worked in Shanghai, 2001-2005, at an established multi-national. Most of my Chinese colleagues at the time have either already emigrated, or would like to. Yes, there are opportunities in China, and but even for these rather well-advantaged folks, life looks better elsewhere.
And it's more about education, housing, health and lifestyle than pure earning potential. Not having to game the system by having your second child in HK, for example. That would be nice. Or not worrying so much about food quality. Not having to bribe teachers for equitable treatment at school. Not having to prepare for a monolithic college entrance exam. Actually owning your own property outright, at less spectacularly inflated prices. etc & so on.
As someone who's recently made the move to China (Hong Kong, and not teaching English), I can say it's a great way for native English speakers to jump start their careers and get responsibilities much faster than at home.
Hong Kong is a bit easier getting used to due to a free internet, less pollution, and stricter food safety laws. But I guess there are more opportunities on the mainland.
How does your salary in Hong Kong compare to your previous jobs? Is it at least on the same binary order of magnitude?
Grad jobs in Australia offer at least the minimum wage of $40k per year. Note that I haven't seen a single job offering only $40k. The very very low end of what I've saw is $45k+. I've heard of offers of over 100k for really talented graduates.
I asked around in Hong Kong, and graduates there are only offered around HKD$15000 a month. That is only $25k per year.
I haven't mentioned the long working hours, expensive rent, and relatively expensive cost of living compared to the salary.
Top paying jobs are with international banks. You'll make pretty much the same here as you will working for them in London or NY (so, 100K+ yr, for example). From there, salaries slide to ridiculously low levels. (EDIT: it's my understanding that, due to the current economic climate in Europe, most of these banks aren't hiring).
It's a pretty bad place for any passionate programmer to end up. There's an overall lack of passion, risk is avoided at all costs, and creativity doesn't exist. It isn't just in the banks either...there's something culturally different.
I've never worked in a factory..but in my mind, it's inbetween working for a real startup and working on a factory floor. Which explains the long hours you mention...when you work 10hours every day, it's hard to be super passionate and creative.
As for cost of living. Rent is expensive. If you want to eat at a fancy $300-a-plate restaurant every night, you can (and probably a different one for many months). You can buy fancy clothes and expensive jewelry. But, if you are willing to, Hong Kong lets you live cheaply (rent aside). Remember that taxes are ~16%, with no sales tax and no capital gains taxes. If you make $150K, your take home is ~125K.
Right, sorry, I knew that. I'm Canadian and things are a bit different. Canada and Hong Kong don't have a tax treaty, which could be horrible for me. However unlike the US which requires that you pay taxes for 7 (??) years after leaving, Canada lets you declare yourself as a non-resident and forgo paying any Canadian taxes going forward.
You need to be very careful (hire a good accountant) because you don't want to owe back taxes + interest + penalties if you ever come back, but it's doable.
I've heard of people leaving Canada for 10 years, not paying any Canadian taxes...grossing millions..coming back and having the Canadian Revenue Agency (CRA) say that, in their eyes, they were always residents and having to pay 500K+ in taxes/interest/penalties. (a big part of it is how many ties you keep in Canada, if you own a house, or your wife/kids stay in Canada, those are "primary" ties, and make you a Canadian-resident for tax-purposes).
> However unlike the US which requires that you pay taxes for 7
Not 7, "infinite". You can be a US citizen by birth, leave when you are a week old never to return, and owe tax on everything you earn in your lifetime above the ~$93K/yr limit.
The only way to completely avoid the US claiming taxes is to renounce your citizenship... although if you do that for economic reasons they can legally prevent you from ever visiting again (although I understand that's rarely if ever actually applied)
It's a mess if you're a US profesional with any aspirations of working abroad. On the other hand, our billionaires tend to stay put rather than fleeing to Switzerland so the policy does have its desired effect I guess.
The issues with the CRA are pretty much the same all over the world: people try to game the system by claiming they moved away while "really" living in their home country. If you make enough money away from your home tax authority expect to show some documentation. Even in the US this happens with people who claim to have moved to a low-tax state while still maintaining a residence in a different state; you need to prove you weren't within the state's borders for more than X days or the tax man will want their take. Nothing unusual about Canada in that regard.
Once upon a time if you stayed out of Canada for 2 years, you were pretty much guaranteed to be exempt. Now it's more subjective.
Nevertheless, I agree it isn't bizarre or unique. The lack of a tax treaty with Hong Kong is unfortunate though. It's not even on the table from what I understand.
I work in marketing and get the same salary as in my home country Sweden, but with accommodation and food paid. I wasn't hired as a local. It really depends on what you do though; my banker friends make waaaay more.
After having lived in Asia for about 5 years now, I can relate with that post, at least in terms of optimism. Back in Europe I felt that everything was slow and stuck in time, but in Asia you get a feeling that things are actively moving forward, that there is life in the streets. Societies in Asia (I generalize on purpose) feel more dynamic overall, there is a clear sense of freedom flowing in the air.
I do not know what you mean exactly. Of course in China individual liberties are restricted, but at the same time government power is not unlimited and do not reach every corners of society. In many ways, the streets feel like a free market place: you can bargain prices, people sell what they want and there is a lot of exchange taking place that you would probably never seen in the US or Europe.
Therefore I mean "Freedom" in that sense. I am not talking about Freedom on paper/in terms of rights. How much you feel free and how much you really are, are very different things.
Disclaimer: I am CS engineer and have been working in China for the past 7 years (always in tech).
I am not sure that representing China/Asia as the next Eldorado for Westerners is that smart; yes it can be a land of opportunities, but I fail to see the real future you would have in "teaching English" in Beijing, Shanghai or anywhere else down here. It is a precarious position (schools are notorious for screwing around with visa, salary and basically anything you should be entitled to), competition is fierce (many disillusioned foreigners who could not find a job and settle for it), with a steady input of fresh candidates.
Now, if you are indeed an English teacher and are trying to build a career abroad, why not? If you are a history graduate settling for an easy to land position, well... One of the commenters (stupandaus) mentioned that Chinese locals usually refer to them as "Losers Back Home"; foreigners do too.
I think however that the excitement of the poster is genuine; China does indeed exhale that energy that you may find hard to find in Western countries (especially Europe). It is a very challenging environment, one that does not necessarily care much if you fail or succeed, but it can be very rewarding if you are up to the task; you can be put very quickly in front of responsibilities and opportunities that would demand a fair amount of experience, connection and luck in the Western world. However, you are still expected to work your ass off if you want to build a serious/successful career, maybe even more fiercely in some aspects than in Northern America or Europe.
> The effects of the Great Recession of 2008 may be felt in the United States for years, but they barely scratched China.
It barely scratched China in metropolitan areas, maybe, but certainly had a large effect in manufacturing hubs like GuangZhou (see documentaries like "The Last Train Home").
As an aside: my parents recently made this move after seeing their two sons live in Taiwan on Rotary Exchange (mid-50s, caucasian, from a podunk town in upstate New York) and are having the time of their lives, but the wealth disparity in mainland China is certainly stunning if not somewhat depressing.
Yeah, as with many of the commenters here, I'm not convinced about this article (I live in HK)
As for this masterpiece of bad science: "For my money, CCTV News English, a channel offered by China’s major state television broadcaster, is more fair and balanced than Fox News."
I put it to you. Can you think of any major news channel less fair and balanced than Fox News?
It's a non-starter for a comparison, unless he's trying to make the (mostly valid) point that American news is a complete joke.
The market rate for (caucasian)private school English teachers in urban China is between 100-150 yuan/hour ($15.80-$23.75). The cost of living is higher than you would imagine, but you can live quite inexpensively once you get used to the city.
That being said, I do not personally find such teaching jobs enjoyable. And the author, it seems, is not well acquainted with the drawbacks (or advantages) of living in China. (Read Peter Hessler for an accurate account.)
State schools pay maybe 7000 RMB per month for 20 hours of classroom teaching per week. Private schools double that for nearly double the workload.
I'd guess most teachers are probably pulling 15k USD per year between their main job and a couple of tutoring or corporate gigs on the side. It's better money than sitting in the basement, but it helps to keep things in perspective: a minimum wage job in California makes close to 24k these days and you can drink the milk.
excellent, i went east back in 2006 (japan, then china), it has been one of the best decisions of my life, living in shanghai now. i work in software development and the market and talent is red hot!
i disagree with the author in regards to the food scandals, this is a really crappy part of society here and i can't think of any scandal against citizens worse in modern day history.
Chinese people often refer to those like the author as "Losers Back Home." It is exceedingly common to run into Westerners who couldn't hack it in the West that think they are minor gods in Asia because of their native English speaking ability and sudden attractiveness to large throngs of females.
This may actually be one of the worst times to move to China if you're looking for a fresh start. They've been on a lending binge that's created a massive fixed asset bubble (mainly real estate), and it looks like the correction has recently begun. It's a lot like what happened in the U.S. and Dubai, although on a much larger scale and without the fancy derivatives (at least not yet).
Local governments have actually been forcing developers to borrow more money and buy land from them because they depend on those sales to meet their financial obligations. Real estate agents are offering luxury cars and bars of gold when you purchase an apartment, not to mention buy one get one free deals (the gold and luxury cars allow them to mask declines in the prices of apartments because list prices are still high).
I would stay far, far away... at least for the next 6-12 months so we can see how hard the landing will be. A lot of wealth is potentially going up in smoke and that could wreak havoc on their domestic demand, which is what they were planning to rely on in order to continue their rapid GDP growth (which we now know has been largely artificial).
I have been living in China for 9 years now, and ever since (and certainly before) there's been fears and rumors about real estate bubbles, pollution, war, social crash, etc.
I can understand that China raises fears and disbelief: how could dare a self-proclaimed communist country build the biggest capitalist market in the world? And, moreover, doing it using the exact opposite way as proposed by European social democracies (China has economic freedom without political openness, while France, for instance, has the opposite)
But for anyone coming here in China, from Westerners to Indians to Africans, there is this stone-hard fact: it works, it is happening and it works. In China, they actually have highways all over, they build new factories everyday, they grab millions of peasants out of poverty every year. This process has a lot of difficulties, yes, but who would hope it wouldn't?
So the real estate bubble fear: I can only talk about what I know, and what I have seen. I was in Chengdu for 3 years. An enormous percentage of the city center is actually owned by the local government. Same thing in Beijing, where I have lived for 6 years: in my street the local government did order renovation for all places it is owning during the post-olympic little depression (just a "post coitum anima triste"), so it was very clear: they own half of the hutong street. In Kunming, nearly half of the city is a University. What I mean is that, contrary to many Western govs, Chinese gov still has a strong leverage on real estate. They are already reacting in real time to stabilize the market.
So, sorry to tell you that, but your eruption feels a bit ill-grounded.
Since I arrived here at Bob's Turkey Farm, I have been treated with nothing but the finest standards of hospitality a bird could hope for. Gourmet food is literally shoved down my throat - portions seemingly increasing by the day! - and I scarcely need to do anything, which is just as well as by now I've become rather plump.
[I don't really know much about China's economy. This is just about the notion that things will be great since they've been great for a while, and doubters are simply jealous]
> But for anyone coming here in China, from Westerners to Indians to Africans, there is this stone-hard fact: it works, it is happening and it works.
I don't think that communism is responsible for China's success.
Yes, the Chinese that I know are not representative, but unless they're 2+ sigmas different, the relevant question is "why has China done so poorly?" After all the people are top-notch, and that's not something new.
The truth is closer to "the Chinese govt is not keeping the Chinese people from succeeding as much as it used to", but that's not much to be proud of.
I wish it weren't true, since any economic collapse has global implications, but they've dug themselves into a serious hole and haven't made any drastic moves to pull themselves out.
Numerous sources (and much better explanations of China's precarious financial situation) are in this post http://chovanec.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/china-data-part-1a-... It's a blog by an American economist who teaches at Tsinghua University, the top ranking school in China.
This sort of news is particularly distressing to hear as the bubble is only beginning to burst:
"A source at a state-owned property firm in one provincial capital told Caixin that local agencies don't have enough money to cover basic healthcare costs or pay teachers."
http://english.caixin.com/2011-12-19/100339928.html
rkon is basically right. My landlord isn't selling his apartment because the prices are too high and so no one is buying, WTF? The real estate market here is incredibly bizarre and opaque.
Its not entirely clear how China will dig itself out of its current situation. On the one hand, perhaps they can grow out of these problems, but their are severe structural problems that need to be reformed sooner or later. A crash would bring those changes but it would be painful for all of us.
I naively have most of my savings in a Chinese bank. This year I'm thinking about diversifying since a banking collapse is always possible and its not clear how we would be insurancd.
So, your landlord is waiting for the market to crash rather than find someone to buy the place and still walk away with a possibly decent profit? Or did he purchase the home at an inflated price to begin with?
It's been hard in China. The realestate prices are heavily inflated and nobody wants to buy at the moment. Prices are already dropping. Selling is really hard.
When you bought a property in the last few years, selling it now means taking a loss.
It's not just that. The real estate companies collude to keep prices high, and won't let landlords consider lowering their prices (they won't market the house, and you can't really market it yourself for some reason). A lot of craziness in this sector, something has to give.
I remember someone from Iceland here posting about how they worked as a web developer, and got paid in US dollars by the clients, which was deposited in an account.
When Iceland had its crisis, the government seized all accounts with foreign currency, as it was the only currency worth anything.
They of course paid the money back after converting it to the native currency.
I'm sure they did the same thing with all precious metal (gold, silver) accounts too.
So really think about how you want your money stored. Maybe it's best to stockpile gold. Or to get foreign equity or property. Something that can't be taken away from you with a mouse click.
There isn't a lot of consensus about what the real situation with Chinese real estate is, and even less about what it means.
One thing to bear in mind is that China is still a developing economy, which means that it doesn't behave the same way as the US economy does.
Economic growth is high, inflation is 5% and population movement from the countryside into the cities is a huge factor.
There is a school of thought that a real estate bubble in China is not a significant problem - the driver of economic growth in China is the manufacturing sector, not real estate and a crash in property prices would just raise the standard of living for those involved in the manufacturing industry (ie, they could buy houses).
If the data I have read is to be believed, the biggest driver of the growth of China's GDP is real estate investment. I have read this in many places, including here:
Your linked article doesn't even mention real estate investment(?)
(The title here is Nominal vs. Real GDP Growth Of China. "Real" - in this context - means "adjusted for inflation". Beyond that it is an interesting article but doesn't seem relevant to the real estate discussion at all)
Residential real estate construction now accounts for nearly ten percent of the country's total GDP -- four percentage points higher than it did at the peak of the U.S. housing bubble in 2005. Bullish analysts have long argued that large-scale urbanization and rapidly rising incomes warrant such an extraordinary boom.
10% of total GDP is significant, but when the economy is growing at 10% a year[1] it can afford to drop quite a lot without necessarily causing an economic meltdown.
To be clear - I'm not claiming that a drop in real estate prices won't cause problems for the entities involved in the Chinese real estate sector. What I am claiming is that it might not be as catastrophic as people expect based on the US experience.
At least Chinese economists are working in the interests of China, unlike the USA. For every dire economic indicator in China there are 100 in the USA and most of them are caused by the government/media/universit economics departments.
I am glad Jonathan enjoys seeing and living in another place and it has always been a dream of mine to live/study/work in Asia but one question: is it not a HUGE trade-off to move to a place where the ONLY thing you can actually do is teach English and English culture? Because for all the other jobs, they will rather take a local and for any leading positions they will definitely not take you and unless you actually have money to invest, they could not care less about you.
Considering how I am European, it would also mean a HUGE trade-off in social security and insurance, health care and other things.
I personally know the author, Jon Levine, in fact, I'm the guy that got him the "dead-end job" with my family's firm. He's a member of the "I have an Ivy League degree, I deserve a job" a set. Never mind his degree was in history and political science, he felt entitled to a prestigious, high paying job in the worse economy in 70 years.
After a 5 month job search without a callback, I stepped in, did a favor and got him an entry level position at a very small PR firm. This was not a "dead-end job", he was the first hire at a newly formed company, there was definitely an opportunity for him to grow his career in a highly lucrative field. But, being that he went to NYU and Columbia (notice the name dropping in the article), growth didn't come fast enough for him.
We accommodated him (time off, flexible hours) while he spent two months trying to find another job. When nothing stateside panned out, he gave us three days notice before leaving for China. It's been a very surreal day for me, I'm incredibly disappointed that he chose to criticize a job which he only gained through my action.
I don't know whether any of you should go to China, but hopefully I've given you a little perspective on why he did.
TL;DR: I know author, he couldn't hack it stateside, took China job as last restort, not as some enlightened life decision.