Yeah absolutely. Every time I’ve been in my local Apple Store, I’ve basically been talked out of purchasing, or it becomes a huge hassle of upselling and extra worrying charges, and quite frankly, stupidity and lack of knowledge from the pseudo-smart staff. All they can do is toe the party line and what they’ve been trained to say and do, which kind of falls apart when faced with someone who has used Apple computers and products for some 25 years now. Most recently I walked in and basically said “I would just like to buy this phone right now” when I wanted an iPhone Pro Max in a rush, and the hassle that I got led to me walking out and going to John Lewis (uk department store) next door, where I said “I would like to buy an iPhone Pro Max” and had one in my hands 90 seconds later and was paying for it, at £60 cheaper than Apple.
Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
I’ve not had such a terrible experience but I’ve had the experience of being confused trying to work out how to buy something and the shop assistant being almost surprised that someone wanted to buy something instead of just looking at things. It was smooth enough after that but I would typically order online after that (which was mostly fine except for an annoying case where they would only deliver if I showed up in person)
People would probably like car dealerships a lot more if it was 'here's a bunch of cars you can look at, climb in and out of, and try out as much as you like as long as they don't leave the lot, and each has a specific listed price, take it or leave it'.
same here. i was able to skip a fitting for an apple watch when i told them i already measured. also with buying iphones outright i've never been hassled or up-sold. i've been going to my apple store in a medium sized american city for the past 10 years.
I've given up on simply walking into an Apple store to just buy something for the past few years. The closest you can get to this is by ordering online ahead of time, then walking into the store an hour later and picking it up.
I've walked into an Apple Store and told the person triaging people walking in, "I know EXACTLY what iPhone I want". They send me to the iPhone area where I have to wait in a queue behind 5 other people who need to be sold the damn iPhone. The customers I'm waiting for are either deliberating between a few different models or have no idea what they should get, so the people working in the store are busy talking to them for much longer than I care to wait.
I wish Apple would add a step to their triage to handle people who walk into the store and say, "I know EXACTLY what I want, _________"
Doesn't Apple have this step already? I'm talking about the online store with optional pickup in your Apple Store. I've ordered online whenever I exactly know what I want. No sales talk, no waiting. Pickup in store was fast and hassle free, but that might depend on store and time. Best of all: I know exactly that the item I want is available for me.
Meanwhile I had the opposite experience in a Google Store recently. I picked a phone case off the shelf in 10s, told the nearest employee I wanted to buy it, and he immediately whipped out a credit card scanner and I bought it right there in 30s. Didn't even need to go to the checkout counter or anything. It probably helps that that store is less crowded than the Apple store, but their training at least seems to involve making the purchasing flow as efficient as possible.
It’s a brave commenter who tries telling Apple they’re doing retail wrong.
I’d guess Apple wants to avoid their shops feeling like a supermarket, to avoid commoditisation. They want it to be like buying a work of art, where each one is unique and special. You need a knowledgable curator to guide you.
I know that for us on HN it’s all bullshit, but it’s a very, very successful strategy.
Its nothing new either, luxury brands (eyewear, purses, cars, whatever) have discovered this decades if not century ago, why do you think people actually buy say Versace suits?
And I disagree HN crowd 'looked through' this, the amount of tribalism and emotional irrationality that almost any Apple-related topic here brings is probably unparalleled.
I think the overall delayed and selective launch is attributed to the reasons you mentioned. They know they'll have to get this right 17 years after the initial iphone was released. I'd probably do the same thing if I were the head of commercialization/distribution. If they screwed this up (selling a few hundred Ks of units on a global release in the first few months), the stock will get hammered
Is that the lesson though? It seems people are falling over themselves to buy stuff at Apple stores despite these annoying and awful experiences, and Apple is the most valuable company in the world.
It seems the lesson is to treat knowledgable customers like morons using patronizing staff and try to upsell them as much as you can, even if it makes them leave the store in disgust.
Well, to be fair, they don’t know who’s knowledgable and who’s not?
I just order my stuff online, walk in, and pick it up. Not sure that it’s super frequent I have a “I need this hardware in 30 minutes or less” situation
Well, obviously not comparable. Price of case < salesman salary for the extra time << iPhone. So it does not make sense to invest extra time to get an upsell. If they can instead get you to spend an additional $100, then spending that extra time makes money.
TLDR: cheap stuff -> as quick as possible. Expensive stuff -> take time to ensure the sell and try for an upsell.
> Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
Their pricing structure on basically all of their product lines is absolutely perfect from a capitalism/business perspective. They are so good at getting people to buy more than they need. It's impressive.
Well, it's not exactly perfect because I was in the mood to simply buy a basic Air, until I was pretty well talked out of it by sales staff, so instead of an easy £1099 in the till, in their attempt to turn that into £2500, they got £0. That isn't good business.
Also, the tedium of nowadays knowing that all the products will be bumped in spec in 9-12 months means that instead of excitement, buyer's remorse has already kicked in before reaching the store, for the savvy consumer midway though the product cycle. Again, not the result effective capitalism should be going for.
I wonder how representative you are of the average consumer though?
I imagine their pricing structure works well to upsell people on average, which is why they have maintained it for long.
Also, why would someone like you even go to the store; I had no issues whatsoever buying a macbook from their website. No reps, no nothing, I set my specs and clicked buy and a few days later had my product. I think most people with your profile probably buy online, and most people with the profile that fits store-goers are successfully upsold by the reps.
It is often that I see people on hackernews post as if the world was designed for them. When, in reality, they are most definitely the odd-man out.
"Also, why would someone like you even go to the store;"
Errrr, because I'm out shopping? And the store is located in a shopping centre amongst other stores where I'm buying things. I fully realise I can buy online, but I can buy vinyl records, sofas, groceries and shoes online, yet I'm often in the mood to walk in somewhere where they have those things available for sale and buy one. It can actually be quicker and easier.
I think you upset a lot of people on HN who maybe don't like the idea that some small part of how homeless people are excluded from society could be applied to them.
> wonder how representative you are of the average consumer though?
But Apple's target demograhic isn't the average person. Apple is particularly dependent on image, and one would think that they would want every customer to leave their store with a story about how awesome they are, to ensure that they keep their image polished.
Except pretty much every American has an iphone? How many americans have macbooks? Ipads? So it's most definitely for the average american. I mean, believe it or not, that's what the average american wants.
Their image is one of exclusivity, but products such as the iphone, macbooks, ipads are actually mass-market products. It's quite a remarkable thing, that the most luxurious phone you can get from Apple is what... 1500 dollars? That's affordable when you think of other luxuries, how expensive can a watch get?
I think saying apple doesn't make products for the average american consumer is really falling for their marketing. They make products that are on the upper-end of what average people can afford but they put a lot of care into presenting these as clean as possible so that people feel like they are buying into luxury. They're not in most cases.
In terms of the phone market, foldables are probably the most luxurious products right now. A foldable will run you 1800-2000 dollars for a product that you know is not designed to last more than 2 or maybe 3 years. In terms of laptops, how many people really spec out their macbooks? I would say people probably buy in the 1000-1500 range and laptops are long-lasting products. A gaming laptop can easily cost 2500+ dollars and will depreciate much faster.
So, I respectfully think you're misreading Apple's demographic. Their demographic is pretty much every adult in America and they tap onto that aspirational mindset to achieve it; which is why people who can kinda see through the bullshit might come out with the sensations that are being described in these comments.
I'm not even talking about salespeople upselling you in the store. I am just talking about how their product lines are priced.
For example, a maxed out MBA is just a few hundred short of a MBP. So you say to yourself, well why not just get the pro? That quickly turns into "well I can't get the base model macbook pro" and more. It's all designed so that the consumer instinctively upsells themselves before anyone in the store even tries to do so.
From a business perspective it’s hard to argue that their approach isn’t working even if they don’t sell to you that’s irrelevant the only thing the bottom line cares about is the totals not individual slaws.
A 50/50 chance to make close to 3x the profit is a huge net win for Apple. It’s also why they don’t cater to the low end of the market.
> A 50/50 chance to make close to 3x the profit is a huge net win for Apple.
Revenue, not profit.
And you're going to have to convince me that it's 50/50 that a consumer who came in looking to buy a $1,000 MBA is going to be convinced to walk out with a $3,000 MBP. Because I think that number is closer to 1 in 20 (and I think I'm still being generous there).
The MBP is both more expensive and has a higher profit margin, so when I say 3x the profit I do mean 3x profit.
Anyway, most people who walk in wanting a 1,000 MBA end up buying something even if it’s a 1,000$ MBA that’s just breakeven. So no they don’t upsell 50% on a 2.5k laptop with much higher margins, but that or no sale is not the only possibility.
Some people buy nothing or what the intended walking in, other people buy an 1k laptop with extended care, others by 2.5k laptops etc. So looking holistically if they lose 200 million in profit from lost sales but make it up with profit of 100 million in 3 different categories that’s a win.
PS: Something that’s not obvious is sales people don’t use the same pitch for everyone who walks in the door nor do they all execute every sale perfectly.
>in their attempt to turn that into £2500, they got £0. That isn't good business.
It IS good business. It's proven by the company's stock price and financial results. For every customer like you that leaves in disgust, there's 100 more that are happy to be upsold like this and empty their bank accounts. Consequently, Apple is the most valuable company in the world.
>Also, the tedium of nowadays knowing that all the products will be bumped in spec in 9-12 months means that instead of excitement, buyer's remorse has already kicked in before reaching the store, for the savvy consumer midway though the product cycle. Again, not the result effective capitalism should be going for.
Yes, it IS. Again, the company's financial results speak for themselves. Customers are happy to buy new Apple stuff every year, and the company is profiting enormously.
If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at all the idiots that buy into this.
Not necessarily. I already have a MBP but I wanted something lighter to bring to coffee shops or use in taxis, so I bought a nicely specced MBA. Yes I could have gotten a MBP for the same price but they’re literally different form factors and bigger isn’t always better.
Back in 2009, buying a MBP, the salesman questioned why a CS student would want a mac over a pc. Luckily for him I wasn't considering his thoughts. I definitely didn't need that powerful of a computer and glad I switched to an air a few years later.
I think part of my comment was broadly about their softly-softly approach to hard selling not actually working at all when someone simply walks in and says "I'd like to buy this right now"
Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
Ballache.