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One problem of which I was unaware is that the Sackler family has largely fled the United States.

Pursuing their assets introduces vast complexities of international law.

"In a brief filed on behalf of the relatives of Mortimer Sackler, most of whom are based overseas, lawyers warned of “significant litigation costs and risks” in seeking to enforce any foreign court judgments against the family if the settlement were thrown out."




> "In a brief filed on behalf of the relatives of Mortimer Sackler, most of whom are based overseas, lawyers warned of “significant litigation costs and risks” in seeking to enforce any foreign court judgments against the family if the settlement were thrown out."

I understand your point, but basically they are saying: "We hid all our assets to evade the law. Give us immunity from criminal money laundering evasion and we will only pay part of what we likely would have owed."

Can you imagine a member of Congress or the President saying this? Forgoing immunity is a scorched earth tactic, but it is also one that will dissuade future abusers. We have those overseas money reporting laws that make it difficult for Americans to get bank accounts overseas. Let's use them!


> "We hid all our assets to evade the law. Give us immunity from criminal money laundering evasion and we will only pay part of what we likely would have owed."

> Can you imagine a member of Congress or the President saying this?

Yes.


Well, we haven't gotten to that part just yet. Right now, we're still in the stage of deny deny deny even in the face of evidence and convictions. They are still in the deny stage.


Consider a few issues:

- the foremost among the perpetrators are dead

- the rest of the family is culpable, but less so

- the settlement money will now be entirely repurposed for legal defense

- meanwhile the victims get nothing

Does justice demand punishment or compensation?


> Does justice demand punishment or compensation?

Which outcome provides the greatest disincentive against anyone else even contemplating doing something like this ever again?


It generally demands deterrence. Helping the victims out is great, and the proceedings should do that as best they can, but the largest benefit that can be brought to society as a whole is showing that doing these kinds of things will be bad for you.


That's basically the argument made in the dissenting opinion. I find the split among the justices here very interesting as it is not along party lines, as such splits usually are.


> Can you imagine a member of Congress or the President saying this?

definitely. The 2012 STOCK Act is routinely violated by members of congress who insider trade on information from congressional committees before laws are enacted. that money the openly argued about the legitimacy of in congress and Pelosi, for one, and Tommy Tuberville, for another argued that it should be allowed. Pelosi later changed her stance, but continues insider trading. you can find datasets for all this at (no relation...just interesting data) https://quiverquant.com


> "We hid all our assets to evade the law. Give us immunity from criminal money laundering evasion and we will only pay part of what we likely would have owed."

> We have those overseas money reporting laws that make it difficult for Americans to get bank accounts overseas. Let's use them!

This is conflating two things.

It is not criminal to move money offshore, and nothing suggested any money laundering occurred, because it is not necessary to launder money to move it offshore. And it is also not money laundering to obfuscate money's origin or destination. Money laundering requires a criminal origin and then obfuscation.

Despite how much the US has convinced its entire culture to stigmatize the concept of moving money, the US is operating in its own bubble of hubris to suggest money has to stay within its ecosystem. It doesn't make any sense at all when you say it out loud does it?

To your second point, the US has reporting laws on money held offshore legally, for US citizens. For banks, this is merely an additional compliance burden that disincentivizes them from dealing with small accounts because its not worth it. But at Sackler money, it is worth it. It is not hard to find someone to bank you as an American. And at Sackler levels of money you don't have to remain a US citizen, hence absolving the reporting requirements if they went that direction.

Or when you have a second citizenship, you can just not tell the US about it, and you can just not tell the foreign bank about your US citizenship. Prosecute that on its own, if you find out.

and finally, there are gaps in this reporting framework. FATCA treaty was a broad expansion of a country's power, to the limit of our global society in the continuum of history. And its not completely as omnipresent as the American psyche imagined. Just like the global sanctions attempt on Russia showed, its a nice try but now everyone can see how much is hubris in plain sight.


> And at Sackler levels of money you don't have to remain a US citizen, hence absolving the reporting requirements if they went that direction.

Renouncing your citizenship because you owe the US government money is generally not seen as a valid reason by the US government to renounce your citizenship.


Nor should it be. These people are leeches whose very existence is antithetical to a healthy and just society. They've done immeasurable damage and then hide behind the courts to avoid any repercussions. Disgusting, the lot of them.


That’s not the reason you would say in your renunciation ceremony


Even if they let you go through with the ceremony, it doesn't actually stop them coming after you.


> and you can just not tell the foreign bank about your US citizenship

Holding foreign assets that you did not report on an FBAR is a crime. Lying about it to the bank that asks if you are a US citizen wod be obfuscation to support a crime. I'm not sure why you are trying to argue that nothing criminal is being done in these scenarios.


Considering the patience the US has with getting justice against other individuals who have fled our jurisdiction, we could do the same here. We also have an enormous amount of influence in the financial sector in other western nations, so we could at least make their lives less lavish and comfortable.

Throwing up our hands and declaring it an unsolvable issue just encourages others to misbehave and then escape the same way.


Hey, it's not like they shared copyrighted movies on a server or something.


If we can seize Russian oligarch's money, why could the US Gov't not seize assets of a US citizen even if living abroad?


Because US citizens have rights that are not granted to non-US citizens.


Nit: the assets were frozen, not seized. There was recently hand wringing in the EU over using the principle or interest to fund Ukraine, and they settled on interest because seizing assets scares any foreign investors who might someday disagree with a government.


The question is whether to allow a smaller settlement immediately, or pursue a less-likely and possibly larger set of judgements in the future. It's not clear that it is possible to get more money out of them.


The EPA values one human life at $10M. A conservative estimate of the number of people killed by the Sackler family's companies (testified in court) was ~~245,000~~ Edit: probably at least 100,000, see below. So if opiates were environmental pollutants, the Sacklers would be on the hook for $1T in damages. Their immediate settlement was $6B.

Roughly three orders of magnitude too small.


Attributing every single opioid overdose to solely the Sackler family is so laughably ludicrous it's hard to take this comment seriously.


The number of opioid overdoses between 1999 and 2021 was 645,000, according to CDC. Purdue Pharma brought in $35B in OxyContin revenue from 1995 to 2017. OxyContin was prescribed to 6.2 million people in 2002.

I'll edit the number above to ~100,000 as an estimate of the number of victims, since it looks like I misremembered 645,000 as the number of Purdue-related deaths. Still, that's assuming only 1.6% of those 6.2 million people taking OxyContin in 2002 developed an addiction, which seems low.


ok, so now you are just arguing percentages. What is an appropriate amount of the harm to be apportioned to the Sackler family?


We just need to convince people they leaked a couple videos of the war state doing bad stuff


Come to think of it, it's mind blowing when you compare the slap on the wrist of a punishment the Sacklers have received against what Julian Assange had to endure. One is responsible for the deaths of more than half a million people while the other is responsible for zero. The justice system really needs to get its shit together.


With that first sentence, I thought this might be doing down the road of, "boy, there sure is a lot of 'democracy' that needs to be spread."


Didn't stop them with Julian Assange or Kim Dotcom, and these people are actually evil.


The US are proud of getting some terrorist in the middle of Pakistan or putting pressure on whistleblowers internationally but when big money is involved getting a criminal scumbag responsible for ~1m deaths is suddenly a huge problem.


Listen, we can't spend like we did going after Julian Assange on this. It's just business people doing business.


El Chapo is crying.


El Chapo was free to form a corporation and then create an indemnification agreement between that company and himself. That he chose not to is on him.




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