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But why does it need to be remotely updated? Have there been major innovations in lift technology recently? They still just go up and down, right?

Once such a system is deployed why would it ever need to be updated?




They're probably deployed to a virtualized system to easy with maintenance and upkeep.

Updates are partially necessary to ensure you don't end up completely unsupported in the future.

It's been a long time, but I worked IT for an auto supplier. Literally nothing was worse than some old computer crapping out with an old version of Windows and a proprietary driver. Mind you, these weren't mission critical systems, but they did disrupt people's workflows while we were fixing the systems. Think, things like digital measurements or barcode scanners. Everything can be easily done by hand but it's a massive pain.

Most of these systems end up migrated to a local data center than deployed via a thin client. Far easier to maintain and fix than some box that's been sitting in the corner of a shop collecting dust for 15 years.


Ok but it’s a LIFT. How is Windows even involved? Is it part of the controls?


Real problem is not that it's just a damn lift and shouldn't need full Windows. It's that something as theoretically solved and done problem as an operating system is not practically so.

An Internet of Lift can be done with <32MB of RAM and <500MHz single core CPU. Instead they(for whoever they) put a GLaDOS-class supercomputer for it. That's the absurdity.


An Internet of Lift can be done with <32KB of RAM and <500KHz single core CPU.


You’d be surprised at how entrenched Windows is in the machine automation industry. There are entire control systems algo implemented and run in realtime Windows, vendors like Beckhoff and ACS only have Windows build for their control software which developers extend and build on top with Visual Studio.


Absolutely correct, I've seen muli-axis machine tools that couldn't even be started let alone get running properly if Windows wouldn't start.

Incidentally, on more than one occasion I've not been able to use one of the nearby automatic tellers because of a Windows crash.


Siemens is also very much in on this. Up to about the 90s most of these vendors were running stuff on proprietary software stacks running on proprietary hardware networked using proprietary networks and protocols (an example for a fully proprietary stack like this would be Teleperm). Then in the 90s everyone left their proprietary systems behind and moved to Windows NT. All of these applications are truly "Windows-native" in the sense that their architecture is directly built on all the Windows components. Pretty much impossible to port, I'd wager.


Example of patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6983196B2/en

So for maintenance and fault indications. Probably saves some time from someone digging up manuals for checking error codes from where ever they maybe placed or not. Also could display things like height and weight.


Perhaps "Windows Embedded" is involved somewhere in the control loop, it is a huge industry but not that well-known to the public;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT


We do ATM's - it runs on Windows IOT - before that it was OS/2.


Any info on whether this Crowdstrike Falcon crap is used here?


Fortunately for us not at all although we use it on our desktops - my work laptop had a BSOD on Friday morning, but it recovered.


According to reports the ATMs of some banks also showed the BSOD which surprised me; i wouldn't have thought such "embedded" devices needed any type of "third-party online updates".


Security for a device that can issue cash is kind of important.


Its easier and cheaper (and a lil safer) to run wires to the up\down control lever and have those actuate a valve somewhere, than it is to run hydraulic hoses to a lever like in lifts of old, for example.

That said it could also be run by whatever the equivalent of "PLC on an 8bit Microcontroller" is, and not some full embedded Windows system with live online virus protection so yeah, what the hell.


Probably for things like this - https://www.kone.co.uk/new-buildings/advanced-people-flow-so...

There’s a lot of value on Internet of Things everything, but comes with own risks.


I'm having a hard time picturing a multi-story diesel repair shop. Maybe a few floors in a dense area but not so high that a lack of elevators would be show stopping. So I interpret "lift" as the machinery used to raise equipment off the ground for maintenance.


Several elevator controllers automatically switch to the safe mode if they detect a fire or security alarm (which apparently is also happening).


The most basic example is duty cycle monitoring and trouble shooting. You can also do things like digital lock-outs on lifts that need maintenance.

While the lift might not need a dedicated computer, they might be used in an integrated environment. You kick off the alignment or a calibration procedure from the same place that you operate the lift.


how many lifts, and how many floors, with how many people are you imagining? Yes, there's a dumb simple case where there's no need for a computer with an OS, but after the umpteenth car with umpteen floors, when would you put in a computer?

and then there's authentication. how do you want key cards which say who's allowed to use the lift to work without some sort of database which implies some sort of computer with an operating system?


It's a diesel repair shop, not an office building. I'm interpreting "lift" as a device for lifting a vehicle off the ground, not an elevator for getting people to the 12th floor.


> But why does it need to be remotely updated?

Because it can be remotely updated by attackers.


Security patches, assuming it has some network access.


Why would a lift have network access?


Do you see a lot of people driving around applying software updates with diskettes like in the old days?

Have we learned nothing from how the uranium enrichment machines were hacked in Iran? Or how attackers routinely move laterally across the network?

Everything is connected these days. For really good reasons.


Your understanding of stuxnet is flawed, Iran was attacked by the Us Gov in a very very specific spearfish attack with years of preparation to get Stux into the enrichment facilities - nothing to do with lifts connected to the network.

Also the facility was air-gapped, so it wasn't connected to ANY outside network. They had to use other means to get Stux on those computers and then used something like 7 zero days to move from windows into Siemens computers to inflict damage.

Stux got out potentially because someone brought their laptop to work, the malware got into said laptop and moved outside the airgap from a different network.


"Stux got out potentially because someone brought their laptop to work, the malware got into said laptop and moved outside the airgap from a different network."

The lesson here is that even in an air-gapped system the infrastructure should be as proprietary as is possible. If, by design, domestic Windows PCs or USB thumb drives could not interface with any part of the air-gapped system because (a) both hardwares were incompatible at say OSI levels 1, 2 & 3; and (b) software was in every aspect incompatible with respect to their APIs then it wouldn't really matter if by some surreptitious means these commonly-used products entered the plant. Essentially, it would be almost impossible† to get the Trojan onto the plant's hardware.

That said, that requires a lot of extra work. By excluding subsystems and components that are readily available in the external/commercial world means a considerable amount of extra design overhead which would both slow down a project's completion and substantially increase its cost.

What I'm saying is obvious, and no doubt noted by those who've similar intentions to the Iranians. I'd also suggest that the use of individual controllers etc. such as the Siemens ones used by Iran either wouldn't be used or they'd need to be modified from standard both in hardware and with the firmware (hardware mods would further bootstrap protection if an infiltrator knew the firmware had been altered and found a means of restoring the default factory version).

Unfortunately, what Stuxnet has done is to provide an excellent blueprint of how to make enrichment (or any other such) plants (chemical, biological, etc.) essentially impenetrable.

† Of course, that doesn't stop or preclude an insider/spy bypassing such protections. Building in tamper resistance and detection to counter this threat would also add another layer of cost and increase the time needed to get the plant up and running. That of itself could act as a deterrent, but I'd add that in war that doesn't account for much, take Bletchley and Manhattan where money was no object.


I once engineered a highly secure system that used (shielded) audio cables and amodem as the sole pathway to bridge the airgap. Obscure enough for ya?

Transmitted data was hashed on either side, and manually compared. Except for very rare binary updates, the data in/out mostly consisted of text chunks that were small enough to sanity-check by hand inside the gapped environment.


Stux also taught other government actors what's possible with a few zero days strung together, effectively starting the cyberwasr we've been in for years.

Nothing is impenetrable.


You picked a really odd day and thread to say that everything is connected for really good reasons.


Or being online in the first place. Sounds like an unnecessary risk.


Remember those good old fashioned windows that you could roll down manually after driving into a lake?

Yeah, can’t do it now: it’s all electronic.


I’m sure that lifts have been electronically controlled for decades. But why is Windows (the operating system) involved?




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