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> The interface is so incredibly snappy

So that feels like its 20 years in the past

> there is a lot of basics missing such as WiFi support.

So that sounds like 20 years in the past too

Where does the future bit come in?




Exactly what I thought as well. UIs get increasingly slower as time passes, not snappier. We had snappy UIs in the 80s and 90s.


We had bloated UIs in the 80s and 90s, it's just that what's come after is so much worse.

Try using the old analog control systems where responses are basically instant. It feels like the controls are reading your mind.


Mac OS 9 felt pretty darned fast on my 400Mhz iMac G3 back in 2000. Same for Windows 2000 on my parents’ PIII 750Mhz Dimension 4100. The only time anything felt slow is when a significant amount of data needed to be loaded from their hard drives.

Not all machines were like this though, we also had a Compaq Presario with some kind of Celeron running 98SE and that thing did feel slow more often than not, especially after several months of usage with the cruft buildup that comes with that.


I think the rule (at least while Moore's law was in force), was UIs start out boated but become fast as the hardware catches up. For instance, your example:

> Mac OS 9 felt pretty darned fast on my 400Mhz iMac G3 back in 2000.

You were using a UI that (at its core) was built for 1984 machine, with sixteen additional years of hardware performance improvements.

Every once in a while I boot up a Mac from 1989, and Mac OS is definitely not snappy on it.

I think if you want speed, you need to find something built for a system far more constrained than the one you're actually using. The choices the developers made to make the system merely usable under those constraints will make it fast once they're removed.


That makes a lot of sense, and I agree. Perhaps a good baseline to develop against today to produce a similar result on modern hardware would be something like a Core 2 Duo or Core i5-750 and Geforce 9600 GT.


I think the point of comparison in the 80s and 90s were those analog systems. Expectations about lag were set by analog.

We could have really snappy stuff today, but have gotten enamored with our latency inducing abstractions and haven't really gone back to fix it.

80s and 90s bloated UIs sure seem snappy and miniature by today's standards.


Not only slower, right? I mean, for UIs, there is the same race to the bottom going on as in other parts of the industry.

It needs to be a big show, and everybody must be able to directly understand it without any learning curve or even rtfm.

Everything else (ergonomics, features, ...) are too often secondary values.

I wouldn't say that UIs were great in the 90s. They weren't. It was also harder to implement them. The programming languages were more tedious, low-level, etc.

But as so often, it's disappointing what we do with our additional power today. Snappiness wouldn't even be my first concern, though.


I don't remember Windows 95 & MS Word 6 being especially snappy. I think this is nostalgia.


See for example:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36446933 - Windows NT on 600MHz machine opens apps instantly. What happened? (2023-06-23)

Follow up to the above by the original author:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36503983 - Fast machines, slow machines (2023-06-28)


They're opening Notepad and Paint, very simple apps even for the time. Try MS Word.

Also Windows NT was released in 1993 when typical PCs were more like 100MHz, so this is getting a 6x speedup from the designed experience.


The second article has videos of more comparisons with different software on a greater variety of hardware:

https://jmmv.dev/2023/06/fast-machines-slow-machines.html

The point is that the good old days aren't just pure nostalgia, some parts were genuinely good compared to modern bloated software.


The interface themselves were snappy when there was no or little I/Os. Spinning drives were killing their snappiness.

Now we don't have such excuse, at least for non networked apps.


Same for MacOS 6 and 7 on period hardware. It’s anything but snappy. MacOS 7 on PPC was snappy compared to Windows 95 on Intel, and that’s it. Amiga was snappy, compared to Windows, but I have a working Amiga 600 and it’s not a great platform even for email.


Comparing A600's 68000@7.14MHz with the strongest macs running system 7 isn't fair.

If you're gonna do that, then remember how much faster a well-expanded Amiga was. Even faster than any real 68k Mac when emulating Mac.


7.5 is really fast on a 68040 as long as you’re not bound by I/O


The apps were snappy, but the hardware wasn't. Every menu/window opened immediately and without unnecessary animation... unless it needed some unexpected processing - then you were potentially waiting for the spinning rust to handle the swap file.


The UI was minimalistic, but with better hardware we also wanted nicer fonts, transitions, wobbly windows (I actually miss those) and countless other nice things that take time.

Also, it’s pointless to open a menu in less time than it takes the screen to refresh.


> Also, it’s pointless to open a menu in less time than it takes the screen to refresh.

No, that would be the goal.


How many times do you want to refresh it without the user seeing it?

Once should be quite enough.


wobbly windows - did you know that they're still available in modern KDE Plasma Desktop Environment? No need to actually miss them! :)

https://userbase.kde.org/Tips/Enable_fun_desktop_effects_on_...


There's an option to disable animations in Windows, but I find it disorienting.


Most desktop have such options, kde and gnome too.for instance.

I am pretty sure this is good old resistance to change. You would disabled them on all your systems, then force yourself to use them that way for a month and I am pretty sure that "disorientation" would quickly disappear.


Windows Vista gave this feeling retroactively


That's just comparing CRT screens with 60Hz LCD panels. Get anything 120Hz+ and you will see that modern systems are very snappy.


I strongly disagree with this statement. Every new version of Windows feels slower than the last one. Linux DEs are either very outdated and very snappy or somewhat modern and only barely snappier than Windows. I have zero experience with MacOS.


CRT screens were also 60Hz. Look at the latency along all steps of the pipeline to get a keypress visible on the screen... https://danluu.com/input-lag/


Many were above 60Hz and it depends on resolution. An iMac G3 for instance could do 75Hz at 1024x768 or 640x480 at 117Hz. Someone recently got a CRT at 700Hz too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zm3lLlaEC8&t=0s


Only the crappy ones were restricted to that.

My 22” Diamondtron went 2048x1536 @ 85Hz or 1600x1200 @ 100Hz (which is what I usually ran it at)


No, an extra ~17 msec of delay is not even close to the cause of this. The speed difference between older and newer UIs is still apparent even at 60 Hz.


My CRT did 1024x768@85 HZ.


Future comes in at point were we actually circle back. "Black is always in fashion" kind of thing.

Ditch modern ad endpoints (a.k.a. operating systems) and go back to those distros we used 20 years ago. Accept that those don't support DRM, carefully choose our hardware (as its barely supported), and stick to it until it dies.

The thing i miss most from that time is Window Maker. I'd love to have again those tiny tiles with small graphs and buttons, but for more modern use cases.


Window Maker still exists. There's an ongoing Wayland port / reimagining: https://github.com/phkaeser/wlmaker.


That's actually amazing. Can't wait for dockable apps support. That could be a killer app for operators - half desktop, half monitoring dashboard, haha :) I can already see those dockable tiles with Prometheus metrics.


The thing I liked most in the NeXT was the sparing use of color. It was part necessity, but also usability. What does the color of the window bar being blue communicate?

I am an enthusiast for Gnome’s less is more approach.


Original NeXT was monochrome, so of course it used no significant colors in the UI.


The original NeXTcube was 4-bit grayscale, but there was a graphics card available which supported 24-bit colour. The later NeXTstations supported 12-bit colours without any additional hardware.


> was 4-bit grayscale

Small nitpick: it was 2-bit and could do two greys in addition to black and white.


Thank you. I actually knew that; I was thinking “4 shades”, and then wrote “4-bit” by mistake.


> The thing i miss most from that time is Window Maker.

I use WindowMaker as a daily driver. Still.




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