As a man who has been hustling flat out to get into a program such as this for the past several months and is currently dead broke living in an 8 square meter apartment in SF, it's very difficult to read this kind of article and not wonder. I'm passing the technical filters (which admittedly should be weak for a school), but not quite making it in. I not only went out of my way to visit multiple schools and talk to former graduates, but I even sold a bank on the idea of giving me a (small) loan to cover living expenses.
With such high applicant to acceptance ratios, I can't take things too personally, but it's hard not to feel discouraged. Am I getting passed over largely because people just don't value investing in a 30 something man? Would a female in my shoes have gotten in long ago?
I know having more money would help, but it's a bit of a reinforcing cycle since the social proof and skills gained at such a program help greatly in making money. As my last submission to HN should make it clear, I love this kind of teaching system. I strongly believe that people learn way faster with guidance and peers working towards the same goal than they do working alone. What can I do to up my chances of acceptance into a similar school/bootcamp/dojo/academy?
I'm over 30 and I was accepted into one of these schools. I couldn't go for myriad reasons, but mainly money. Although these schools do say that they don't want money to be an issue, it truly is unfair for anyone to ask them for a free education, though deferment is perfectly valid if they deliver their promise of making you good. The initiative goes both ways.
The filter is very high. They get thousands of applicants for each cycle, so there has to be some convincing proof that you have what it takes. The implicit question from these schools is very simple: If you did NOT go to their school, would you have gained the requisite knowledge anyways through your own learning?
The reason they have to ask this question is multi-fold:
1- They are asking you to invest tons of time in very little time to learn and pick up all the skills they ask you to pick up.
2- They won't look good unless their students do good at the class
3- They won't look good if their students don't get jobs.
And since this is a two-way street, what have you done to convince them that you will deliver on your promise to make them look good?
Examples:
1- Did you take, and become certified on any of those MOOC courses?
2- Have you created anything of significance like a website? I'm not talking about plugging up a WordPress Site without even customizing the CSS, but something where you had to understand the technology you were using, like hand-coding PHP and MySQL. Do you have anything in github?
3- What programming languages do you use? Have you attempted to learn anything more special, like Scala or Lisp, or are you still mucking around with whatever you began learning with?
I know the above sounds excessive, but it really isn't if you consider the goals involved, which means you are to get a good-paying job, and you were pretty much on your way anyways. Yes, it will probably take a tad more convincing if you are older, have no experience, and don't have any recent tough filters to prove your abilities to them. If these schools are to be taken seriously by future employers, they have to prove that they were tough to get into, because otherwise, saying you educate people to become junior-level programmers in 3 months would actually be a joke, not sound like one. The bar is set very high for these schools or they will go out of business, so set the bar very high for yourself first, then apply. Don't blame them for your age or your gender, because it is not likely that is what is happening here.
You asked a lot but since this goal means so much to me, I'll do my best to answer. I don't believe rejected students would learn just as much outside the school as in. If this were the case, there would be no value at all in attending one.
1- Did you take, and become certified on any of those MOOC courses?
Yes, I did. Maybe I could have spent that time finding one more piece of contract work that would have let me raise the quality of my living conditions/diet, but I took the Berkeley SAAS course and I did very well.
2- Have you created anything of significance like a website?
I'm not talking about plugging up a WordPress Site without even
customizing the CSS, but something where you had to understand
the technology you were using, like hand-coding PHP and MySQL.
Do you have anything in github?
Possibly. I'm not sure how you define "of significance", and obviously I don't already posses expert level skills of I wouldn't be so interested in training.
I've made several JS tools, three 80s style games in flash, and most my projects that have been keeping me going have been WP customizations (generally a child theme with some PHP and a lot of CSS work). Check my profile and I'm sure you'll find one. Some of the above is on github, but nobody is forking it or anything.
3- What programming languages do you use? Have you attempted to learn
anything more special, like Scala or Lisp, or are you still mucking
around with whatever you began learning with?
I've dabbled in tons, including lisp, but not scala. I worked through part of Land of Lisp, though I did end up getting stuck at a point.
Yes, it will probably take a tad more convincing if you are older,
have no experience, and don't have any recent tough filters to prove
your abilities to them.
I find your general tone towards me a bit disheartening, to be perfectly honest. If the result of sharing any kind of personal set on HN is to be implicitly blamed by commenters, it's a lot harder to be open with people here. I'm not exactly sure why you would assume I have no experience or haven't done anything tough.
I've learned to speak and read Chinese well, built and run a business in Taiwan from 2006-2010 and got a job at a tech start-up in China 18 months ago with fewer skills than I have now! Yes, it has been a very, very hard time since moving back to the US this past 6 months, but I haven't exactly been a slacker.
The bar is set very high for these schools or they will go out of business,
so set the bar very high for yourself first, then apply. Don't blame
them for your age or your gender, because it is not likely that is what
is happening here.
First of all, I am not and have not blamed anyone. Every individual I've dealt with related these schools and most hiring managers and recruiters have been very polite and in many cases helpful. And you could be right-- maybe a woman with my skill set and background would have encountered every bit as much rejection from interviewers and schools that I have... and received the same sort of comments if she shared her failure on HN. The reason I don't like articles like this is that they make it difficult not to wonder.
Can you elaborate a bit on "setting the bar very high for myself" or offer something constructive? I'm a lot more interested in the "how to get in" than the "why you didn't" kinds of answers.
I didn't mean to come across as condescending or discouraging. In regards to my tone: that is how I am in general. I've had an extremely difficult life and sometimes the warts of that shows. I simply accept that things are tough and at the end of the day you have to fight through it. When I read your post, you sounded like someone who was discouraged and at least I offered a little bit of advice that may help you, so I'm not totally heartless yet. Hell, I wrote a very long response to you and I am doing it again, so please take the information and curse my tone to your computer.
I took issue with the apparent blaming of the schools for age and sex discrimination because I don't believe that's what happened at all. I believe, more than anything, blaming on a situation without objective proof is irresponsible.
I really don't know why you didn't get in or how to get in because I do not run these schools. With this thought alone, you'd see why I would be remiss to give any concrete advice to get in aside from work at getting better every day.
I'm hoping to be somewhat more encouraging than I sound because I am a 34 year-old-male who ran my first piece of Python code about a year and a half ago. Regardless of my financial situation, I am not the least bit discouraged. At some point I know I will be good enough to convince someone to give me a chance at $$ and that is all I need. At the end of the day, I just love jamming out code, but I don't love it enough to be homeless in SF while I attend a school.
You have an impressive background and I admire you. I think it's great that you are building sites for other people. I just looked through your profile as well but I'll refrain from giving any reviews. This is not because I don't think the work is bad, it's because this is already too long for a forum post.
In regards to "setting the bar very hard for yourself:"
I really hope you pick of Land Of Lisp again because from what I've read of the sample chapters and of the reviews, that book is quite entertaining and impressive. Maybe I'm used to looking at Lisp and doing mathy puzzles with code, but I'm having a difficult time believing that book is harder than the SAAS class. I think more than anything, grinding your way through something that is very difficult for you is impressive.
I also think you should create a site (or some major multi-technology project) from scratch. I'm saying no frameworks, nothing that writes any code for you. Obviously, XAMPP is okay, but I'm saying just you, a blank page, and your computer. There is something truly visceral about working beneath the abstractions, and yeah... creating your own abstractions and building it all by yourself.
I don't know what to say to you or anyone in regards to "set the bar very high," but I'll tell you what I've done:
Work through SICP. Trust me, saying I did that book gets nods of approvals and raised eyebrows from everyone. This book is very difficult but I managed to do 75% of the problems in the book, and it is well worth the effort. I don't know how many times I found an answer to an exercise then looked up from my computer and just sat their dazed at the concepts they revealed. Yes, these concepts are hidden in the solutions, so if you decide to try it, reading it is simply not good enough.
After doing most of SICP, I still wasn't sure how much I had actually learned, and to be honest, I wasn't sure I learned anything "valuable" at all. I built a website in Clojure + PostgreSQL to test my knowledge and I was very pleased to see all that I had learned and figured out without ever being exposed to odd concepts, especially routing. It felt really good and this experience taught me that although SICP didn't feel "real world," I learned more from it that I could have ever imagined. This is why I take issue from anyone who says CS education is worthless.
Corman's Introduction to Algorithms is on my to do list and the book is in the mail as we speak. I want to do this book in C because it somehow feels fitting to learn about foundations while working in a foundation programming language.
I've learned how to do higher-level math like proofs and calculus and I'm currently working through linear algebra.
I'm also going to finally dive back into learning CSS and I am going to learn to do it responsive style. Very few people can do it, and I honestly believe this will be cake after the torture I put myself through already.
I'll second the value of working all the way through SICP. I started and stopped with it several times before finishing it several years ago, and I learned _so_ much.
The SAAS course was more recent, so it's possible that Land of Lisp would be a lot easier for me than it was before. The "mathy" kinds of puzzles weren't a problem as I was a math major back in the day -- it was some kind of configuration issue. I remember having spent a lot of time googling and on message boards before turning my attention elsewhere. For the half of the book or so that I got through, it was really interesting. I still like how it eventually teaches you how to build a whole web server from the ground up.
It might be helpful to install VM with some Linux if you haven't done so. I'm not sure what the config issue was because I don't know much about Common Lisp, but I wouldn't doubt the issue was something irt to Windows if that is the environment you are using. You'll also discover that many items you want to use in your projects may not be available on Windows at all, and with Linux, you just do an install command and it just works.
I want to clarify that the reason things aren't available on Windows isn't because of some belief system from the Open Source community: it is because deploying for Windows is really tough.
As far as I know, it doesn't matter what distro you use. I went ahead and installed Arch Linux and I love it.
Yes. I did the application form on their website several months ago. I never heard any response. Due to the distance and the fact that their need-based assistance is available only to women, I left it at that. I can't chase every opportunity all-out, so I've focused on the places in SF where I thought I had the best shot. And while I haven't gotten in, the teachers have been extremely kind and I do feel like I have at least gotten close.
Would you send a note to admissions@hackerschool.com with the email you used on that application so we can sort that out? We certainly don't mean to ignore any applications, and if you didn't hear back by the date stated on the app when you applied, I'm sorry about that and I would like to figure out what happened.
I just searched all our applications from our past four batches (our first two batches didn't have a formal application), and we never got an application from anyone with your email address. I also did queries on your first and last names and didn't find any matches.
Maybe you're confusing us with a different program (or could you have applied with a different name)?
Very odd. I could have used a different email, but I can't imagine having used a different name. I just went back to the application page and went through it to test and make sure it did a submission after just filling out one page of stuff. I do clearly remember both the questions and the look of the thanks for applying page. Given you just went through the DB, though... I don't know.
Either way, I'm clearly not the deomographic your program is looking for. There is another program with a different tuition model that I was really pursuing. That's the one I had really pinned my hopes on.
"Hacker School made it very clear what their definition of “hacker” is (curious go-getters) and what it is not (pompous know-it-alls)."
"Someone who enjoys sharing what she learns with others. "
"Someone who is friendly and communicates well."
Bandwagon much? Don't go redefining 'hacker' just so you can jump your school on the 'hacking is hot' phenomenon.
From a Google definition: "An enthusiastic and skillful computer programmer or user.", and yes, skillful is a far more important part of it than "friendly and communicates well".
That said (from a pompous know-it-all, no less!), the school itself seems pretty awesome and big kudos to them! Just the kind of thing the world needs more of.
I think our definition fits pretty well with ESR's and the definition of "hacker" from the Jargon file[1]:
1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.
2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming. (Though as we point out, we don't think being obsessive is necessary.)
Also, in ESR's "How to be a hacker"[2] he includes both learning to write and communicate well and sharing what you learn and build with others as requirements for being a hacker.
EDIT: To anyone reading the parent comment without clicking through to the blog post it's excerpting, please note the parent comment ignores the first two criteria we list:
Someone who is intellectually curious. Hackers enjoy tinkering and understanding how things work. They revel in going deeper into things, and love asking questions: How can I make my code easier to debug? What is making my program slow? How does this work?
Someone who enjoys programming. We spend most of our time at Hacker School programming, there aren't grades or tests to make you study, and you don't get a degree or certificate for doing Hacker School, so it's important that you like coding.
You are a marketer/promoter/pusher. Junior programmers coding on fad frameworks at borderline user level are far from hackers in every possible definition of the word.
I hope everyone who bothered to read this far realizes what an ass you just made of yourself by saying that Darius Bacon is "far from a hacker". He is a consummate hacker. When I noticed that he was spending time at Hacker School I was impressed (and a little envious).
You should make the apology you owe him (and HN, for mucking this thread up with utterly inappropriate personal attacks) and then go study his work.
As the author, I'd welcome tips to make it better. (Though efficient implementation is not a priority since the API hasn't settled.)
Both Jamie's and my work have been high-ranked on HN's front page, for what it's worth; and I'd call the Hacker School facilitators hackers by any reasonable standard.
Indeed, his skill for naming repos may be laughable (ex 'optilamb'), but other 1337 hackers (like some dude named Peter Norvig) are under the impression he qualifies modestly as a hacker.
Disclaimer: I'm a Hacker School S'12 alum, but these words are my own only.
I don't believe Nick or any Hacker School facilitator look to revolutionize "hacker." I don't believe they want to get into any semantic argument.
If anything, they're sharing their school of thought on hacking. On the one hand, they indeed have their opinions about programming and what it means to be a "hacker." On the other, they are also openminded to hearing different opinions and expanding their own.
In my observation, they don't intend to redefine anything. They just want to expand an ongoing conversation with others who care about programming.
"An enthusiastic and skillful computer programmer or user."
That's an awful definition of a hacker. Hacking, regardless of definition, was always a subculture. It was never about just being skillful, that's more inline with the modern washed out definition.
Everyone goes in enthusiastic and comes out more skilled. The definition has not been altered. Sure, in three months you can't learn it all, but you learn to keep learning. You go to become a hacker, not because you are one. I think that was the point trying to be made.
DISCLAIMER: I am on the Hacker School bandwagon as a participant myself ;)
What do you think a family of 3 would need to pay for rent during Hacker School? (Assume the goal is to live as cheaply as possible, but to be in a safe area).
It depends on what your family of three would need (i.e., if you're a couple with a young baby, one room would probably suffice; if you're a parent with two teenagers, you might need two or three bedrooms).
When I last polled our students, they were spending $800-1,200/month individually. Some people have been able to go below that ($600 is the cheapest I've heard) and some have opted to spend more.
Please reconsider. These people are not elite hackers like they pretend to be. It's more about self-promotion than anything else. I bet a job with skilled people as mentors will suit you a lot better than this random risky gamble.
Can you talk about the age range of the students of your Hacker School and your understanding of the age range of the students at other Hacker Schools?
The pictures all show a bunch of well, young and attractive people. Regardless, coming out of the downturn, there are many experienced engineers struggling to shift from a diminishing part of the industry into web development.
Do you support such training/retraining and what would be the best thing such a candidate could do to get in?
My impression was that the average age was mid-20s but there were definitely older people in those photos and at least one or two people with families of their own. It must be the revitalizing effect of hacker school that makes everyone look so young :D
I suspect the bias is not in the application process but in the applicant pool. It's far easier for young people with no ties to pick up and spend three months in NY without income.
While I entered Hacker School as a professional web developer, I did do it as a part of my "retraining". I wrote a blog post about it here: http://sethmurphy.com/my_programming_reboot
I already had over 10 years work experience. Of course my HS experience was as unique as anyone else's. It is what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less.
I wonder what the value is of having it in NYC (or SFBA) vs. somewhere else, ideally cheap and with minimal distractions, like a university campus over the summer.
Also wonder if there's a good argument for doing a non-US hacker school to solve visa issues -- is there anything going on like this in China now? India?
There are a ton of interesting tech things going on in NYC. General Assembly runs events and classes, AlleyNYC similar, WeWork Labs has cheap office space for startups, New Work Labs has a free night, NY Gaming Meetup, multiple competing Java Meetups with technical presentations; group coding; networking, NY Tech meetup, User Experience Meetup, iPhone meetup with tons of people advertising gigs and looking, ad startups offering above even NYC rates to get people into a distasteful subject - and those are just the things I've encountered personally.
Honestly, if someone going to school meets a more established opportunity to work at a real startup or with a real company with a production product, then I think that's a good distraction anyway, since they'll move on to the real deal, instead of just working on educational open source projects, and really start their career.
The word hacker is so abused for marketing purposes it now means entry level programmer of whatever trendy fad of the times. (e.g. node.js hacker, rails ninja, mongodb god)
* Originally (70s-80s) hackers were programmers/technicians who could
modify programs or machines to perform tasks beyond their original
intended use (for good or bad).
* Afterwards (90s), journalists hyped the word to mean security
hackers, people expert on security issues of software (itself a
subset of original hackers).
* And then further journalist confusion, changing it to refer to
people cracking into systems
* In the last few years it became a glorified buzzword losing any
useful meaning.
A lot of insecure people who need cool names use it to describe themselves. There's no substance and no way to verify their claims. This is like ghetto cars with neon lights and flaps.
You don't provide any evidence to support your claim.
>> "hackers were programmers/technicians who could modify programs or machines to perform tasks beyond their original intended use (for good or bad)"
That is incredibly vague. In fact, by that standard, I was a "hacker" in 8th grade.
Is there some unspoken and arbitrary measure of skill in the "original" definition you are referring to?
If not, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with any entry level programmer referring to themselves as a hacker.
>> A lot of insecure people who need cool names use it to describe themselves. There's no substance and no way to verify their claims. This is like ghetto cars with neon lights and flaps.
That analogy isn't helpful. How does the so-called dilution of the "hacker" term relate to "ghetto" cars with neon lights?
Where you place the most attractive people in the front row for each photo. ;)
But, in all seriousness, I think it is a fantastic idea to make women feel more welcome in that field, as too many girls I know who are IST majors, or something similar, frequently talk about how they really feel that it's more of a "guys" area.
You might not realize it, but your first sentence is an example of what makes "too many girls ... feel that it [the technology field] is more of a 'guys' area."
When people say "sexism," that's a big part of what they mean. It's not necessarily treating women as if they're inferior to men, but rather creating an environment -- sometimes knowingly, usually not -- where women don't feel comfortable or welcome because they are women.
Pinching butts, whistling, making sexual advances, hiring unqualified men over qualified women, etc. are all ham-handed ways of creating that environment.
But sexism is also embedded in things like our instinct to comment first on a woman's appearance, call them "girls" instead of "women," and constantly sexualize them in small and seemingly insignificant ways.
I was saying that to due to the fact that it's true for each and every photo, even the guys I find attractive are in the front rows. I felt that the photos were slightly weird because of that. Additionally, I think many things about the logo are sexist, the needle and stitch thing is more sexist then any comment I made.
The logo you're seeing with a needle is one from Etsy [2], who by the way, were the driving force behind (and are the primary benefactors of) Hacker School's grants for women.
No, I said women in the field. Then I commented that /girls/ that I know. (people who are 17, 18, years old, which, if you're still living off your parents etc, you're still a boy or a girl)
I feel that even at my age, I am still a "girl" rather then a "women" personally.
With such high applicant to acceptance ratios, I can't take things too personally, but it's hard not to feel discouraged. Am I getting passed over largely because people just don't value investing in a 30 something man? Would a female in my shoes have gotten in long ago?
I know having more money would help, but it's a bit of a reinforcing cycle since the social proof and skills gained at such a program help greatly in making money. As my last submission to HN should make it clear, I love this kind of teaching system. I strongly believe that people learn way faster with guidance and peers working towards the same goal than they do working alone. What can I do to up my chances of acceptance into a similar school/bootcamp/dojo/academy?