>You should really try a pay site, OKC in my experience has just been for hookups.

I guess it would be that way if you just looked at people's profile pics and didn't bother with answering match questions, comparing scores, and reading profiles (which is how a frightening number of people seem to use it). If you actually use the tools it provides, you may find you have better luck.

That said, I guess I don't have much of sample size to work with since I've only dated one person I met on OKC. Still, that's because we're getting married, so take that for what it's worth.

I know more people in my age/location cohort who got married due to OKC (far and away #1) or Craigslist (#2) or IRC (dear god) or Erowid than Match.com+eHarm+etc. combined. I've never even met a Plenty of Fish user.

I disagree utterly. There's a significant number of people looking for real relationships on OKC -- you just need to find out whether the other person is on the same page as you ASAP (profile, messages, first few dates).

Thanks to OKC I went on several first dates, which led to two exclusive relationships (at different times, of course!), one of which resulted in my marriage. I also found that OKC gives greater flexibility in self-expression and how you discover others.

Online dating is a bit of a numbers game, so I feel that it's poor advice to steer someone away from a dating pool. Maybe adding a pay site to one's online dating efforts (at least for a trial period) would be a better strategy.

May I ask how tall you are? I am not trying to be facetious, just curious.

I agree that it's a numbers game, assuming you are at least vaguely viable.

Just under 5'9", which I suppose is a fairly average height. Re: vaguely viable, I'd say my main prima facie drawback is very thin hair on top.

There's no doubt in my mind that shorter men have a tougher time, but I don't think it's limited to online dating. One thing I've (anecdotally) seen help shorter men is a muscular physique, but I agree that a short man will likely have a higher ratio of first dates to relationships. It's not like a successful relationship is out of the question, but the process of attaining it can be longer and more emotionally taxing.

Have tried many, paid/non-paid, with same outcome. And shorter women hilariously still generally prefer >= av. height men. It seems to be a major genetic thing.

I shouldn't gonzo myself into this too much, as I've decided to give up on relationships altogether, so this isn't about me finding some site that'll work (not feasible IMHO, since real life is equally impossible), but rather whether people like me are being baited-and-switched much by these sites...

Remember that dating works much like a market. There is supply and demand, and since there are about as many men as women, the supply and demand is roughly equal. But in some places this ratio is not equal. I'm not sure about dating sites, but that could be such a place. Simplifying a lot: if there are 1000 women and 2000 men then the women will date the 1000 most attractive men, and the rest have basically no chance. You need to find a place where the numbers are reversed.

The good thing about dating being a market is that you can find somebody. The thing is that you have to place your standards around your level of attractiveness or lower. Contrary to the popular romantic image of a non attractive male dating a very attractive female, almost all relationships happen between people of very similar attractiveness. You may be less popular height wise, so you might need to compromise on an attribute that makes a woman less popular (e.g. weight or age). Perhaps you have decided that the compromises you would have to make are too great, and you'll rather stay single instead. That's fine too, but it's a choice.

You also have some control over your attractiveness. You have some control over physical attractiveness with clothes, sport and grooming. Fortunately for you, for men physical attractiveness and age are not of overriding importance they pretty much are for women. As you note, confidence and social status are also very important (see Berlusconi for an extreme example). These are things you can work on! Intelligence is important too, and you're probably already doing quite well on that front.

Thanks, very thoughtful post, indeed I think it is a market.

My point is that there are attributes of mine which rule out women who I find at least vaguely attractive (and I'm not being picky, honestly), so perhaps I'm simply not able to compete in this market.

I wish the physical factors such as height weren't such a big factor, as that is obviously impossible to change. If I believed I could eliminate it, I'd gladly start hitting the gym hard right now. But I am so convinced that it's such a huge thing that I find it very hard to believe that'll make all that much difference.

I can assure you that a fit small body is more attractive than an unfit large one to a sizable amount of people (for what it's worth, Tom Cruise is not tall either). From what I've heard the importance given to height may be a US phenomenon. It's still a plus elsewhere, but less so. Are you in the US? Height also varies a lot between countries: you would would be tall in Indonesia (average 5'2), but here in the Netherlands you would be quite small (average 6'1). My father and brother are also small (perhaps even smaller than you relative to the population average), but they are doing fine relationship wise. Not all is lost!

I wish I could believe that, but that hasn't been my experience, nor that of others. I would gladly lose weight and hit the gym hard if I believed that (and I have done in the past, only for all + any health/fitness improvements to make no difference.)

I'm in the UK, average is around 5'10" here. I am in bottom 2.5% of male population height-wise.

Tom Cruise is considered to be rather good looking + confident is he not? He's a good example of the factors which can counteract short height. Note he's a couple inches taller than me also :-)

That's true in both online and offline dating. My suggestion if you want a far easier time hooking up is to simply get into very good shape. Height, weight, completion, and dress are all vary important in first impressions. But surprisingly weight / fitness is by far the most important.

I would be more than willing to do that, if I believed it was as much of a factor as height/looks/cocky confidence.

I actually experimented with this, lost > 55lb in weight, worked really hard, and it made no difference. None.

As you can imagine, motivation to do these things is not great these days.

If losing that much weight made no difference your either still significantly over weight, gained no mussel mass, aiming rather high, or something else is wrong.

My honest suggestion is to remove you expectations. Spend a month responding to every profile until you start getting responses you don't have to keep going after that but you need a little signal to start. Then do some A/B testing to see what helps vs. hurts your response rate.

PS: Think of your profile like a resume you get ~5 seconds to catch someones interest.

I looked a lot better, but there was definitely still flab.

You exclude the possibility that other factors outweighed (no pun intended) the weight issue? We're talking > 55lb, so it obviously had a major visual impact. I don't believe it should have had no impact. Maybe minor, but for it to make no difference says something about other factors I think. when I was young I wasn't overweight at all, and had exactly the same experience.

I agree that the profile is like that. You have very little time to catch somebody's attention.

Do not underestimate the confidence and well-being you can get from getting into shape. And it doesn't take a long time - perhaps 2 or 3 hours a week at the gym or at home, exercising and eating right. That alone can distinguish you from a lot of other people who are either unfit, or fit but lacking your other qualities (I am assuming: intelligence, a good job, etc....)

Getting yourself into shape is sort of like a magic bullet. To do it you either need to be, or will become: driven, motivated, strong-willed and with the capacity to see things through to the end. The improvement acts as a positive feedback loop. I can't recommend it enough.

The thing is... even short girls want tall guys... =)

I remember seeing this thing on TV where people with disabilities attempted to find dates, and a ~ 3' woman who featured on it said she preferred men >= 6'. QED.