No, it doesn't. You proved it yourself. You had to do some math to figure it out.

The reason taxes don't appear on this U.S. government publication is the same reason that they take withholding out of your check. If you actually saw what it cost you each year, it would piss you off so much you might actually get off your butt and do something about it.

This is the reason that withholding is used by individuals to fund their retirement plans and other rainy day savings accounts. It's too easy to fritter the money away if you actually get your hands on it.

I would agree with you that it'd be helpful to see taxes as a section of the pie chart here, but presumably the focus here is what people choose to spend their money on, and taxes aren't much of a choice.

Taxes are the rent you pay for choosing to live in the USA.

I'm not complaining about my taxes. I think there are tons of things we could do to improve how we spent tax revenue, but I wouldn't say we are overtaxed.

I was born here. And without open borders to make residence in multiple countries, we are not "free" either.

But even after we admit this, we still need to ask if this ownership ought to be treated as legitimate, and there I disagree with MM.

Also, if we are applying common law principles, I contend that USG has in the past engaged in massive fraud by pretending it is not the actual owner, and continues to do so today. When we also consider the violent means it has used to acquire and maintain ownership, we have force and fraud -- enough to disqualify USG as a legitimate title holder.

> If USG is not the legitimate title holder of middle-North America, who is?

I admit, the answer is unclear, but it does seem clear that USG is not it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your reasoning is at least slightly different from MM's, then -- I don't think MM has much of an interest in this question or much of an answer to it, since he has criticized the "Rebellion" but now accepts USG's ownership.

Adverse Possession is not about making moral claims. It is a way to prevent violence by settling who owns what. Groups would try and manufacture claims and rally groups to regain possession. You see this happen in the Balkans and Middle East with claims going back hundreds or thousands of years.

Of course, in some ways the question of legitimacy of state ownership is silly. Law between sovereigns or between a sovereign and its residents is always jungle law. The strongest wins. By definition, there is no third party to enforce the law.

Of course, if most of the residents are very dissatisfied with their sovereign and are willing to take extreme measures, they have a chance of winning regardless of immediately available firepower. This is where the question of legitimacy matters, because a sovereign will have at least some trouble if its residents do not accept its legitimacy, even if it wins in the end.

There are two things to consider in regards to USG's relationship with middle-North America: a) property ownership b) management structure

I do not view the property ownership as illegitimate. I do not agree with the libertarians who view taxation as theft. I think such a view is neither justified nor constructive.

USG's management structure is awful. It badly needs reform or a reboot. The goal of a management reboot is not so that us subjects will pay more taxes. It's so that resources will not be squandered. This would end up being good for us subjects, but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence.

If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case.

Yes, there are some libertarians who naively, and incorrectly, believe they are the de facto owners of property in the US. That is, they would not even agree that USG actually owns all US property. However, I'm afraid I still don't see why you view USG's ownership as legitimate, unless you are equating de facto ownership with legitimate ownership -- i.e., you don't believe there is any difference between the two.

> USG's management structure is awful...

Agreed, of course.

> ...but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence.

I'm not so sure about this. Yes, USG could be run more profitably, but severe agency problems exist. Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well.

> If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case.

I assume a group of subjects would also count as an "outside group"? If we are using common legal principles, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier, I suggest they would be legally justified as well, even if this might not matter all that much in the real world.

I think the concept of adverse possession is a necessary concept to avoid violence and enable us all to get along with each other. So if de facto ownership exists for long enough, it should be considered legitimate.

Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well.

Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers.

The other option, which is perhaps more plausible, is that perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken. Those break away republics could innovate new forms of government and provide examples of how to reform USG.

If possession is established and maintained violently, I'm not sure legitimizing this is a good way to avoid violence. MM does tend to confuse order with peace.

Example: Jack kidnaps John and forces him to work as his slave. John soon attempts to escape but is prevented from doing so. Under Jack's brutal rule, John eventually gives up trying to escape. Years later, Jack's crime is discovered, but Jack is allowed to maintain ownership of John due to adverse possession. Order is preserved, but the violence continues.

> Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers.

If that's true, then yes, a reboot seems about as likely as the Pope declaring his atheism. Well, maybe less likely, because the Pope is just one person.

> perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken

Perhaps, but a total collapse of USG or even the formation of the fabled NAU conservatives keep droning on about would surprise me less.

Well, the reformation did happen. And the Soviet Union did fall. And Deng Xiaoping did say, "It matters not the color of the cat, but whether it catches the mouse". The problem is, that the leaders of these states all had positive examples to follow. The U.S. has no positive example of what a good management structure looks like.

Perhaps, but even a total collapse of USG or the formation of the fabled NAU conservatives keep droning on about would surprise me less.

I'm not familiar with the concept of NAU conserveratives. Mind explaining?

So do you have any ideas about what should happen? Or what will happen?

Agreed; I wouldn't say it's impossible.

> The problem is, that the leaders of these states all had positive examples to follow. The U.S. has no positive example of what a good management structure looks like.

Maybe you're right. The changes required for USG seem more drastic to me than those that were applied in the Soviet Union or China, though. After all, Protestants are still Christians.

> I'm not familiar with the concept of NAU conserveratives. Mind explaining?

Sorry, I was referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

This scares some conservatives to death, particularly the ones who worship the Constitution. I think the biggest change we'd see is different text on some signs, and I'm exaggerating only slightly.

> So do you have any ideas about what should happen? Or what will happen?

My ideal looks somewhat similar to "Patchwork", but without the joint stock corporate management structure, which I believe has some fatal flaws. As for what will happen, I can't say I'm sure, but I'd guess some sort of catastrophic financial collapse and associated instability. As we know, the worldwide financial system is horribly engineered. We can try to be optimistic about what comes after that, but realistically things could get pretty ugly. The parts of the world that are mostly disconnected from the financial system will be relatively okay; spontaneous order could arise in small pockets of the developed world as well, but much of the West could plunge into violence and chaos for some time.

By the way, don't you guys in the U.S. get a salary report for each paycheck you receive? Such a report in Finland would state your salary before taxes, after other deductions such as insurance, pension, union fees etc. each listed per row, and finally your salary after taxes. I think that producing such a report is required for all companies so at least in this part of the globe you wouldn't miss how much you pay taxes.

I must say that personally I really don't even know my salary before taxes unless rounded to the nearest 500 euros or so. All I'm interested in how much I get transferred to my bank account each month.

Yes we do. Most people ignore it (just like you). They figure take-home is their income and that any refund that they get after filing is "free money" to them and not a zero-interest rate loan to govt.

It's too bad. I'd love to see an organized effort by business owners to say "screw withholding" for employees (despite it's illegality) and watch the government scramble. You can't imprison everyone.

It would be a lot more in, say, New York or San Francisco, whereas it'd be a lot less in, say Tampa or Austin.

Australia doesn't have state taxes on income (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australia_v_Commonwealth).

Instead states taxes tend to be particular levies for works or "stamp duty" on purchases (e.g. cars/houses).

However, when I put the figures through using current exchange rates, AU income tax would be $14,352 US on that amount (around 29% compared to the original 21%) and our tax rates and thresholds have dropped quite significantly recently.

Some taxes are paid on income, other taxes (such as sales) are paid on expenditure. Other taxes (such as property, including cars) are billed directly or lumped into something else (rent).