> You can imagine what was going through their minds as they saw themselves in their ridiculous garb and dehumanized condition.
"At least they're not throwing things."
Somewhat related, I'm curious about the veracity of a "news item" for which the second Google result is a blog [1] whose header includes a lengthy quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and which appears largely to have been promulgated by a charming [2] fellow who goes by the handle "Red Pill Philosophy", and seems mostly to concern himself with blaming society for his romantic and sexual failure.
I like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that, I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made decisions...more likely to have more effect on what the current state is than the men in uniform ironically.
A moment's thought, had you paused to engage in same, would've led you to realize that Ukrainian grandmothers today were, in youth, governed by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, whose regime was never particularly noted for the extent of the freedom of conscience and action it extended to its subjects.
I'm well aware of that part of history, given that I am Polish, And my main issue is the narrative of the article: 'innocent grandma' vs. 'ignorant thug kids'. As they say, sons bear the sins of their father.
and really a downvote? Did anyone read between the lines of that post and not sense the propaganda?
Recursively apply Joyeuse's point until you hit a generation that wasn't coerced into making bad choices. Joyeuse's main point was that we can't blame a younger generation and simultaneously vindicate the preceding generation. This does seem to hold true.
I suppose, in the wake of the Nürnberg Assizes, it makes sense to argue in this fashion. But I've never been all that strongly convinced by the argument that "only following orders" is never a defense, especially as applied to civilians; it seems to require of every human a degree of moral fiber which has never been commonly found at any point in history.
Had these grandmothers, in their youth, rebelled against their rulers, they'd have failed, and even those who survived would've been abused in every imaginable fashion. How does this imply that they're at fault for the abuse they suffer at the hands of their grandchildren's cohort today?
this is a very stupid comment, i made an account just so i could reply, first of all poland was never the same as ukraine under soviet rule. Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in ukraine. secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know of your experiences in poland but in ukraine the only thing you shaped was how much alcohol you would be drinking during the day. third, the riot police in ukraine is not what you might think of as "innocent" police protecting the state, they protests ignited after the riot police descended on peaceful students and killed several of them including a pregnant girl. lastly and sadly that this is not covered more by western media, these are extremely peaceful protests, where peaceful protesters round up provacateurs and hold them up against the walls of buildings not letting them provoke police. My source? being in the streets. very stupid and offending comment.
>Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in Ukraine.
I agree, this was my understanding. Actually I reference my background because of the culture I inherited. There are several members of my family (70s up) who were children during WWII and did feel the yoke of soviet oppression (Siberian death camps in particular). The rest were murdered in Ukraine no less. That is the only reason I cited my background.
> secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know of your experiences in poland but in ukraine the only thing you shaped was how much alcohol you would be drinking during the day.
If not the previous generation, then who? The generation before? Clearly we are blaming the riot police for the calamity of the day (which is fair) but let's not forget how things came to be. If you were drinking alcohol to handle your depression in an oppressed state, then clearly by doing nothing, you did nothing to help the state of things.
>third, the riot police in ukraine is not what you might think of as "innocent" police protecting the state, they protests ignited after the riot police descended on peaceful students and killed several of them including a pregnant girl.
No one is pushing that narrative, if I implied such, I did not mean it. But realize, again, this did not happen in a vacuum, choices were made, or not made.
But my main point is this: Those are people, in that gear, who work for the state. If there is a takeaway from holding a mirror to them it's this: You're human, we're human. Don't dehumanize anyone, protestors and police alike.
While this is true, the word 'Ukraine' comes from a Slavic word for 'border' or 'region', so using 'the' in front of it makes sense when you consider the original meaning of the name and how English is spoken. All my Canadian-Ukrainian relatives say 'the Ukraine', even though as the proper name of a country you should just say 'Ukraine'.
There used to be. I didn't realise till I just looked it up ( http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/ukraine.html ) that they had officially dropped the 'the' after 1990, I thought either was correct.
Exactly.
I'm grateful that I don't get downvoted for the comment btw.
But sorry, this lacks any news or intellectual value whatsoever.
Now if a study would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent of riot police, this would incite some nice debates about the human psyche.
I don't want to listen to some guy with dirty undies hanging on his bedpost talking about the "evil black riot police" and how they get schooled with grandma's with mirrors.
The hippies used to do this with flowers in the 60's.
That is a long time ago.
Is it true that riot police is getting more violent or aggressive in nature? Or could it be that those helmets and shields are there to protect them from cranial bleeding.
a study would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent of riot police
That seems to be a rather high bar to set for a rather poetic act. I take it you also do not trust parachutes.
As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.
One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian.
Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd.
The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part because the pro-West factions were so divided they really had no chance against the Party of Regions (which enjoys widespread support in the eastern parts of the country).
I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in Odessa.
Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.
I grew up in south eastern Ukraine (as Russian as Ukraine gets). I'm still in touch with some of my childhood friends, and the views are pretty split in my hometown. One friend that I went to school with always posts all kinds of pro-Europe anti-Yanukovich petitions online. At the same time I just received an email from another friend this morning and his opinion is "Those fucking protesters are turning Kiev into shit, good thing we don't have that in our town. We did have some but they got shit thrown at them [literally what he said], so they sit at home now." Basically his opinion is that it's western governments trying to manipulate Ukrainians.
> I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth.
Maybe not the best wording. While there is no doubt dissatisfaction with political and daily realities, most Ukrainians, certainly all the ones I know, still feel closer culturally to Russia than to the West.
Russian-ness and Ukrainian-ness aren't dictated by politics which are continually changing...
> Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.
This is an issue in every country. Right now in half of the EU peoples' lives are getting worse (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, etc...).
There are certainly world-wide economic variables at play, but there's also the issue that some pro-West agents try to hold the country hostage every few years... Russia bailed out Ukraine, and pretty much continually props up its economy. Look what the EU did to Greece and Cyprus...
there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections
Oh really?
Summary statement: “Preparations for Ukraine’s parliamentary elections on 28 October are taking place in an environment of procedural irregularities, widespread vote-buying, limitations on freedom of speech, and a lack of effective consideration of election disputes.”
Summary statement: “Mission Canada concludes that – taking into account its interim reports, the findings of Election Day, and the subsequent problems in transfer of results and tabulation of data – Ukraine’s parliamentary elections fell short of meeting international standards, and that these elections marked a regression in Ukraine’s democratic development.”
edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent.
> edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent.
Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways?
Fact is, Yanukovych was elected in elections that were praised by the West - in 2010. In 2012 there were political factors and ideology at play that made it more useful to denounce the elections...
The PoR also had the most votes in the 2006 parliamentary elections when Yushchenko was in charge. It's not a far stretch to assume that they may have fairly won in 2012 as well.
The point is western observers are quite selective in 'endorsing' certain elections over others. In 2010 they kept quiet because it was plainly obvious that Yanukovych was the winner.
Now you have protests (which turned violent at several turns) protesting a democratically elected government, conveniently just before new elections. With tons of Western media coverage again, and again the Western media vilifying Yanukovych and Putin...
Unfortunately public protests are soon going to become illegal in Ukraine as the president have just signed a set of laws the basically turns the country into police state [1] [2]
Not really. The 'heroes' of the Orange Revolution turned against each other (see Yushchenko vs Tymoshenko drama) , raided the country's coffers, ruined its economy, and lost badly in the most recent elections.
Well... The new one is not exactly the same. He's a former felon with multiple convictions for violent crimes who, judging by the people he installed in key positions all over the country, still has connections with the organized crime.
This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines?
The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the American occupation of those countries. Maybe they were swept into a whirlwind, powerless to prevent those casualties, because of policymakers.
I expect that this will be a very unpopular statement, but maybe holding those on the front lines (e.g. soldiers and SWAT members) accountable will help create pressure against immoral government crackdowns. Maybe we should be critical of both those on the front lines and those making the strategic decisions.
> This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines?
Going with military rules and Nuremberg precedents, likely both.
Command responsibility doctrine makes superiors responsible for the crimes of their troops (let alone for their own unlawful orders) and superior orders defences started falling after WWII, especially during the Nuremberg trials:
> The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.
the 1998 Rome statute tends to confirm, although a superior order defence may still work under it:
> 1. The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or of a superior, whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal responsibility unless:
> (a) The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question;
> (b) The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and
> (c) The order was not manifestly unlawful.
Superiors ought be held accountable either way, boots can escape if they demonstrate that the order was not manifestly unlawful.
Just anecdotally, most of the folks my age who joined the military did so not out of a sense of duty, but strictly to better their chances, for the same reason they might go to college.
I don't have a lot of respect for that particular decision, and that is not a popular sentiment where I live. I believe that mercenaries, which is more or less what they are, are morally culpable. But I, too, made bad decisions when I was 20, and it's even cloudier when there are a lot of folks telling you that you're making a good decision and that the nay sayers are basically cowardly traitors.
That said, I don't know how useful it is to attack the problem from that direction; between the entrenched fantasies about how legitimate that violence is and the real social and economic circumstances that push people into those kinds of decisions.
There is plenty of blame to go around, if we are okay saying that this use of force is in fact immoral, but in my opinion it doesn't do a lot of good to blame anyone, beyond analysis... all we can really do is look at what we ourselves are doing and decide what we change directly or in concert with our fellow travelers.
"At least they're not throwing things."
Somewhat related, I'm curious about the veracity of a "news item" for which the second Google result is a blog [1] whose header includes a lengthy quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and which appears largely to have been promulgated by a charming [2] fellow who goes by the handle "Red Pill Philosophy", and seems mostly to concern himself with blaming society for his romantic and sexual failure.
[1] http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/2014/01/ukrainian-protester...
[2] http://redpillphilosophy.com