There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage.
Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.
The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant, which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).
> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.
I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me.
> The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant.
Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor.
That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.
Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.
I have not seen the binge drinking the author brings up other than once at a hackathon but I can see how people could feel discomfort with really really drunk people.
People drink at conferences and meetups but I feel that you could listen to all of the talks without being made fun of for not drinking (to be fair: in in my experience).
Not hanging around after the talks or whatever is over isn't that weird, even finding the people who do not "binge drink" and staying and talking to them wouldn't be impossible.
That said, I feel that it's a different story when it comes to drinking at your workplace.
There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar.
When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due to the cultural issues surrounding drinking in Maharashtra bars were out. This made organizing unstructured meetup time really difficult.
Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible.
Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events.
In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should collectively be able to tackle.
Personally I'm happy with bars and it seems like most people in the west are, so I'm not going to expend a lot of efforts fixing a non-problem. We don't need the alternative to have a tech community, and the fact of the matter is that any cultural choices we make will "exclude" some people.
(I put "exclude" in scare quotes because it's self-imposed exclusion.)
But if you find a good solution that might be deployable in India, let me know. Pune has a good tech scene but regular unstructured social events would definitely improve it.
I find the degree to which you're comfortable using generic statements to define the issue a non-problem for the entire industry quite disheartening.
That you personally don't feel the need to spend energy on these issues I perfectly understand however since it would do little to advance your personal goals. When it comes to those my comments to jiggy2011 might help get you started.
Just like what it would take to make tech events more inclusive; in your case it's also just about finding an existing pattern of behaviour your target demographic already displays which you can most easily latch on to and co-opt to help advance your personal goals: tighter interpersonal integration within the Pune tech scene.
It's late here so I can't ask my Indian co-workers, but I'm fairly confident that their culture also already has patterns to enable spontaneous social interaction. My guess is that it involves food somehow ;)
The goal is to find something good enough for 80% of people - in the US bars are it and they are easy to organize. So for the US, it's a non-problem. In Pune, it's actually a bit more difficult to organize things.
Whatever group activity you pick somebody won't like it. Last year my company had a relaxation day and went to a baseball game. I hate baseball. Rather than whining like a spoiled child about how it's unfair that they excluded me, I just hung out with a pretty girl, watched Dark Knight Rises and ate some Indian food.
What would a more inclusive event look like?
Going to a bar and having people socialize with a no-alcohol policy? That gives off a weird puritan vibe.
More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come and go as they please.
Something that would quickly come to mind is something like dim-sum or high-tea adapted to evenings and crowds of varying size.
Probably just changing the focal point from the bar to the buffet and encouraging seating instead of standing would create a completely different atmosphere.
Another variable you could consider playing with is moving from self-service to being served; where the waiters are instructed to dial down the frequency when guests get too far along.
Ironically enough unlimited drinks is something that could work fairly well in this context, as long as the implication that excessive boozing is discouraged and will not be enabled by the waiting staff.
>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.
I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted.
Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.
You aren't paying attention then. There was a very high profile case of sexual assault within the tech industry, and at one of these booze filled conference parties as well, only a few months ago.
While the danger of physical violence might not be significant, I can imagine that a big group of drunk men might be very intimidating for some women. We've all read complaints about unwelcome advances, harassment, inappropriate comments and sexist jokes at tech conferences. How much worse would it be with drunk men? How safe from harassment would you feel if you were woman? Imagine if you're in a group conversation and one guy keeps making dirty jokes and staring at your breasts when he says the punchline. Or if a guy is really overly friendly and keeps getting really close and bumping into you "by accident". Or if a guy keeps giving you overly personal compliments that are creeping you out, no matter how much you try to brush him off. In a room full of drunk strangers, you'd probably feel quite isolated, since you wouldn't have anyone you could reliably turn to for help. I can imagine all that being a bit intimidating, especially if you've experienced unpleasant behaviour from men at tech conferences in the past.
Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.
It's hard to take seriously a list of incidents that starts with "a model was photographed, and the photo was later cropped and used as a test image in image processing." Jumping to the very bottom, I see the Paul Graham non-incident and gendered pronouns.
(Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on this list you feel are serious.)
I'm even excluding the comic cons because they're arguably not that tech-related but harrasment there seems even more prevalent.
Notice how they also all refer to archive links? That's due to a mix of for fear of the consequences of having these posts be at the top of Google when searching for the victims name and straight-up libel suits being initiated by the perpetrators.
It's not really like insisting on dirt bike racing. The article is like complaining that everyone else likes dirt bike racing and you don't and that makes you feel excluded.
edit: Although I can see the point about men drinking being potentially intimidating towards women.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc.
Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.
>> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.
>I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me.
Well, when you want to change how MOST (by his admission) other attendants have fun, it's really par for the course, isn't it?
>>Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.
I've never seen women have much trouble attending dance clubs, bars, concerts and the like -- places full of men and women drinking. A conference, if anything, sounds much safer than those.
I know that you're not particularly sensitive to these issues, but there's a huge difference between attending a bar by choice for personal reasons and having to attend a bar to be able to fully participate in all parts of professional events.
Many religious and cultural minorities avoid alcohol-based gatherings, because their background forbids or strongly disapproves of such behaviour. Most recovering alcoholics avoid environments where drinking is taking place. As other commenters have said, a lot of women aren't comfortable being alone in a room full of drunk guys; Thanks to the tech industry's problems with gender, they probably already have plenty of good reasons to feel uncomfortable at a tech conference. If your conference is boozy, then a whole bunch of people are going to stay at home for that reason.
Do you not see a problem with booth babes at expos, or game companies who in the past have organised launch events at strip clubs? Would you argue that people who feel uncomfortable with the idea of scantily-clad women being used as props should simply avert their gaze? What if we replaced alcohol with a different drug? Would you be fine holding a tech event in a cannabis cafe or a crackhouse?
If you want to throw an after-party at your conference, fine. Most conferences inevitably have plenty of late-night drinking at the hotel bar and I'm not going to argue with that. But if you allow that drinking culture to encroach on the event itself then you're marginalising a large group of people, you're invoking all the dreadful fratboy stereotypes that the tech industry so desperately needs to shake off.
A lot of people are vegans for all kinds of reasons. Does that mean meat shouldn't be served at conferences? Frankly, that's ridiculous. The absolute majority of people are ok with alcohol in moderate doses (I still don't know what kind of binge drinking events he's talking about, since I haven't been to one. I presume I'm not missing much, and neither is anyone else who chooses not to go). I am not going to comment on the straw man arguments.
This does not mean a individual conference couldn't be better with less alcohol, just like a dress code might help in some contexts (see every other industry). This is a choice that every conference maker is free to make, and does every time they organize an event - unlike the complain club supporting members. I for one would love a tea room style conference, but I am not gonna complain about someone not arranging it for me.
There are religious and cultural minorities that don't believe in men mingling with women who are not their wives or relatives - do we restrict women from attending for fear those minorities would be uncomfortable?
I know a number of recovering alcoholics - some will avoid situations where alcohol is available altogether, some will happily go to a bar and drink a club soda all night, or somewhere in between. You can't generalize about a group like that.
And personally, I don't like strip clubs, never have. In various jobs, there have been a lot of sales dinners and the like that ended up at a strip club. I always left before we got there. I didn't feel put out, or uncomfortable, I was just frank about my dislike for them, and encouraged everyone else to go have a good time.
To a certain degree, I agree with you - if an event is ostensibly about topic X, but is really about getting hammered, that's unfortunate. But almost all of the conferences I go to have technical talks, and then a cocktail hour/binge drinking session for networking. Or it's a meetup/user group meeting at a bar, in which case, those who are uncomfortable in bars should just not go.
I dispute that drinking at conferences is "marginalizing a large group of people". I think there should be a balance, but ending the practice entirely is silly.
There is a world of difference between being excluded, and feeling excluded. Ryan feels excluded, but I genuinely doubt that people are shunning him because he doesn't have a beer in his hand. He isn't being forced out of interesting conversations because of his sobriety.
I've never once seen binge drinking at a conference. Drinking, sure, but binge drinking implies that people are doing kegstands or something similar.
Now, I don't know Ryan personally, and maybe I'm missing the bigger point, but this blog post reminds me of an Elizabeth Taylor quote: "The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues."
I think this is the correct response. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, and if it makes you uncomfortable, don’t attend. People are not doing Jaeger bombs in the convention center aisle during a presentation, and I feel like the author is trying to make that argument.
Nobody is being forced to drink, but I have a feeling that if the author were to make his own conference, drinking would be explicitly forbidden. That’s the biggest problem with prohibitionists of any type (whether it’s alcohol, recreational marijuana, or whatever). It’s not enough that something is optional and they’re not forced to partake. They must force you not to partake.
What about recovering alcoholics, people who avoid alcohol for religious reasons, and people under the drinking age ?
There are clearly groups who don't or can't go to events because alcohol plays a prominent part (i.e other people drinking impacts them).
There's obviously trade-offs between different groups of participants, but they need to be made consciously with awareness of the consequences rather than because they're the default.
Is he? He presents pics with a couple cases of beers as if twas evidence of getting hammered.
There was alcohol on the couple conferences I've been to, sure. Everyone had a beer or two. It facilities relaxed discussions, makes brain storming much easier. I haven't seen anyone get drunk.
Clearly there is a group of non-drinkers that do feel excluded from drinking events, even if that feeling is imagined. One possible solution that doesn't take away drinking events would be to explicitly welcome them.
"If you don't drink, there will be plenty of sodas, water, juices, etc. at the bar. We want to hang out with all of you regardless of what you're drinking. :)"
Two years ago, as a non-drinker who felt a lot of non-existant peer pressure, just that line would've made me much more comfortable in attending one of these social events. If nothing else, it's a good first step that costs nothing more than the breath to say it out loud.
There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage.
An analogy would be a conference where the evenings entertainment is a competition to see who can piss up a wall the highest. It wouldn't exclude women per se, because they don't have to join in if they don't want to, but you can reasonably see why they might not feel welcome, and why they might complain about it. If a conference wants to appeal to a broad range of people it's the organisers job to make sure the entertainment isn't based around one thing that only appeals to one group, even if that group is a majority.
It seems reasonable to assume that there are far less women interested in, as you say, "pissing up a wall" then there would be women who enjoy drinks and beer; this doesn't seem like a fair analogy.
>It's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted.
If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"?
I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level.
A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.
If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"?
I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level.
A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.
This isn't really the same thing, you can't please all of the people all of the time. You could be as try and offer as diverse activities as you like, say drinking/sports/chess tournament and there is likely to be someone who doesn't like any of those things.
A "whites only" restaurant is a different thing entirely to a restaurant where you're not thrilled about the menu.
Well, since I talked specifically about a PERSONAL behavior (drinking) to be ALLOWED (it's a fucking personal choice), instead of people to be excluded because of their COLOR, I'm pretty sure I didn't expressed anything like the BS racism argument above.
This is a silly analogy. Racism causes serious damage to people's lives. Participating in racial discrimination perpetuates racist attitudes and that is why all forms of racial discrimination that negatively affect minorities are seen as morally wrong in our society. ("Positive" racial discrimination is not seen as bad - see the Focus 100 hackathon.) It is not quite the same to cater strongly for people who drink versus those who don't. I like to drink, so I tend to choose friends who also like to drink. There's nothing wrong with that. It would be very different if I only had white friends because I disliked non-white people.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be more professional to be more inclusive with regards non-drinkers, I just think this analogy trivialises the issue of racial discrimination.
It's not an analogy, it shows the questionable wording of the GP's claim, which, with minimal adaption, can be made into quite a different argument with a rather different feel to it. The whole point is that words and implications matter, in much the same way as the implication of "hacker culture == alcohol" matters. A potentially sensible point thus resembles a style of language that does all but helf reinforce the argument.
Sarcasm is the lowest form of argument. Go on, expand it out: what are the reasons why that would be a bad thing? Do these reasons also apply to the view in the grandparent post? If so, argue with those reasons.
The computing world isn't the most inclusive to begin with, and by additionally alienating parts of the audience that hasn't already been excluded on other grounds (gender, race), none of this gets any better. Conferences carry a lot of symbolic power, because they are representative of a given community, moreso than a forum or a mailing list, where some voices will always be louder than others. The conferences, then, have the onus on them to accommodate a wider audience of people; they also have the chance to shape their respective communities. By creating what has been described by others as "fret party" environments, these communities severly curtail their wider appeal. It also doesn't help the image of programming being a non-respectable profession. If you behave like and cater to the "frat-bros", expect to be treated like one.
Most academic conferences seem to handle this better, with drinks receptions, dinners or evening programme separated from the actual conference content. If alcohol is served, that usually means sparkling wine and/or wine, with juices as alternative. Additionally, conference proceedings and drinking are strictly separated. I think the conference dinner, as a whole, is a better format, because it still enables you to chat to other attendees, but since everybody is already eating together and thus connected by a common activity, drinking doesn't have to be the one thing connecting everybody. Whether somebody then has a drink with their meal or not doesn't matter so much.
If you're making "drinking at an event" to amount to "racism", then you're doing your argument a disservice and you probably don't know what racism is.
Worse, if this logic is accepted it sets up a hellish society, were that a few people don't like something would mean they can force the many who like it to cease it.
Notice how he doesn't ask for his right NOT to drink -- he asks that OTHERS do not drink because he doesn't like it.
That's like the inverse of democracy: the minorities clamp each other until everyone's not getting what they want.
Didn't we have that with the marijuana laws and sodomy laws already?Wait, we even tried it for drinking, during the prohibition. How did that turn out?
"I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level."
The author's point is all about this issue. Essentially, he's implying mission drift: the stated purpose of the event is being subverted, or even subsumed, by the unstated purpose (drinking). In his opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on the unstated, to the point where the stated is getting left by the wayside.
It's an interesting point, though it's very hard to prove, and the author weakens his argument with a lot of heavy-handed moralism of the "This has no place here!" variety.
Nevertheless, it's something to consider. When people drink at conferences, do they have to binge drink? And if a majority (or even a perceived majority) of attendees are indeed binge drinking, might that not exclude a fair number of hypothetical attendees who don't want to? It's not a stretch to think that a woman would be put off, or even physically intimidated, by the idea of being in a clear minority among a large crowd of young, drunk males. Similarly, older would-be attendees might opt out if they feel they're just going to show up to a glorified frat party. In the author's view, the problem isn't so much the presence of alcohol as it is an alcohol-centric conference culture.
The problem with this argument, of course, is its heavy reliance on subjective experience. One person's loud, annoying frat party is another person's good time. One observer's "everyone is binging" is another observer's "only a few people were, and they were embarrassing themselves." One person's "I felt excluded for being sober" is another person's "That's all in your head."
The best way to explore this issue is to get out of the subjective and into the empirical. I'd be very curious to see the results of polling among past and would-be attendees to gauge their feelings on this issue. For those who opted out, why did they? And what patterns emerge in their feedback? We'd probably run into some issues with sample size and selection, but something would be better than pure speculation.
We really have no place speaking on behalf of those who aren't present, no matter how small a minority they might be. (Cf. "tyranny of the majority" on Wikipedia or other sites.) The net solution probably isn't that every conference needs to go straight-edge. But at the same time, it's probably not the opposite: that everything is perfectly fine, and those who don't like it can go somewhere else. The author has raised an interesting point, and we should make an effort to hear from those who feel similarly.
Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.
I'm wondering the same. I never used to see this back when I lived in Europe and I don't see it here in Asia. It's probably fair to call it a SV thing.
In Europe there's usually alcohol and socials, but as far as I have encountered no binge drinking or hard partying.
Nothing anyone who doesn't drink would feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it has much to do with the presence of bars or alcohol, but more with the local culture. And in the US, the drinking culture as a result of the absurdly high drinking age is totally juvenile. My guess is that programmers fresh out of college bring that culture with them.
The handful of Philly tech meetups I've been to haven't even had 1/5th of the attendees go to the bar afterward. I'd like to think we have it under control here.
That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".
I don't drink very much at all, maybe one or two drinks every few weeks. I have never been ostracized, ridiculed, or even noticed when I get a Diet Coke (which is obviously not alcohol if you're paying attention, but from across the room who knows) or even a water (which is obviously not alcohol from anywhere because of how it's served).
Indeed. I don't know what's so hard about drinking whatever you want to drink. If you're afraid of being "excluded" or "ostracized", then you'd do well to change who you hang out with.
For people who grew up not drinking in a culture that emphasizes drinking (often in excess), it can be hard.
Perhaps you should look at this problem from another angle: Maybe it's not that all these people who have personal problems are trying to get people to stop drinking, but instead it's that we should educate and encourage non-drinkers to still attend our events and not drink? Clearly there is a group of people who still think they're being pressured to drink, and some encouragement will make them more comfortable?
Because peer pressure only exists in high school? And maybe it's not hard to say no to a single drink, but a lot of these events go past midnight, and the reason they "work" is because the next day when you pass each other in the hallway you can say "woah, bit of a hangover too?" and, silly as it sounds, bond over that. Good luck with that if you're only going to drink water, surrounded by people getting progressively drunk.
Somewhere around the age of 18 and 19, most people develop the ability to not care about what other people think about their activities and preferences.
Those who don't develop it before 30 or so will always suffer at the hands of those who do, and the latter group includes people who consider themselves inclusive and socially conscious.
Indeed. I don't know specifically what kind of confs the OP actually goes to, but the geek/programming/tech ones I go to the culture is one of individuality - people RELISH in being different and "not with the crowd".
I don't think that's an overly strong argument. But there is some meat to it. When people are at a party and booze is present that's one thing, and even if there is hard liquor it can still be possible to avoid drinking and have a good time while connecting with others. But there is a transition point where drinking becomes the focus of a party rather than just a, sometimes, part of it. And those sorts of parties tend to become exclusionary just by their very nature. As a mature adult, even one who drinks, it becomes tiresome and very non-fun to go to party after party where booze is the main attraction, where it's difficult to have a conversation because it's too loud or most people are too drunk to converse with, and where people get so trashed they start to have a bad time (not being able to stand, puking, passing out, whatever).
The problem is that the boundary line can be difficult to discern objectively. And when people who enjoy boozy parties try to judge them it's all to easy to dismiss the problems because it's just so damned much fun for them. But it is a serious problem, especially in a professional industry.
A few weeks before the conference, create a FB group/discussion board/forum/mailing list and invite other people who'd like to abstain from alcohol at WhateverConf after parties. If you're going to WhateverConf you probably learned about it on the web. There's no reason not to use the web to assemble people who want to have alcohol-free fun at WhateverConf parties.
Interesting, I didn't realize this kind of thing happened. Most of the conferences I go to do have social events in bars or restaurants, sometimes with open bars, but they don't really have an "epic party, man!" kind of feel, or sloppy-drunk people. Culturally dependent, maybe? In much of Europe it's normal to socialize in a bar or restaurant at lunch or dinner or afterwards. But you'd be having some wine or beer and/or food in some kind of reasonable establishment and chatting, not slamming back vodka shots while a DJ plays through huge speakers, at least if the attendees are mostly post-university-age.
None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then, there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?
Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference.
The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.
I agree, I haven't experienced this either. Indeed, there are many after-hour events that take place at bars or brew pubs but it wasn't a big drunken mess. I also wonder if it might be an age thing, when I was in my twenties it often seemed like drunken-ess was the end-goal.
I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake.
I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.
I do this too when I'm not drinking for a period of time (diet). Never had a problem, and I live in Japan, a country that literally has "all you can drink" as an option at most bars.
Christ, I am too old to binge drink, it slays me the next day, so I avoid partying like I used to. I don't moan about other people's lifestyle though. Conferences are one of the few places I have a low amount of beverages though, it does speed up the networking.
If people want to go over the top, embarrass themselves, then fair enough, that's their prerogative. People want different things in a conference.
I pretty much abstain from alcohol, and despite my abstemiousness never have I once taken umbrage that others like to drink when I happen to be around. It's quite sad that someone should get so worked up about something so trivial.
I think that depends on context a lot. If you've got room to roam a group of drunk people that keeps to itself is rarely a problem. I've been to conferences where the party was in a small, crowded and loud area and I just didn't feel good because I couldn't move away (although I do drink).
On my own conference, we take great care that beer is served in open areas and that everyone can choose where he sits around. That works very well. It is an issue, it is one that can very easily be solved with a bit of open-mindedness a bit of care.
I don't think this is a thing specific to tech, I'm not sure about the US but I'm in the UK and at every company I have worked at (including non tech companies) "social activities" has always been synonymous with "drink excessively".
In my experience there is usually a civilised meal, and then excessive drinking afterwards, and nobody is thought badly of for leaving after the meal, regardless if they have children to look after or if they simple don't like drinking.
On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky.
I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party.
There are plenty of mature workspaces in London, with people that take the job seriously and consider their role akin to engineering rather than playtime at the zoo.
Never have worked with the old-street set though, so I guess YMMV.
> Offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were more creative.
I get what you are trying to say, but as a guy with a degree in arts who considers Alan Kay one of his big heroes (if old and grumpy), I have to protest against the implied definition of "creative" here.
Not exactly. It feels like the stereotypical programmer is shifting from being a bearded middle-aged white man to a privileged drunken 20-something man. Sure it's a stereotype, and there are plenty of folks doing very-well-thankyou-very-much within the programming community.
BUT I think the OP is saying (and I agree) that the 'free beer and pizza' culture is starting to dominate the public view of the programming community. So we get tools with offputtingly brotastic names, documentation that's littered with gratuitous profanity, meetups that reward the biggest drinkers rather than the most interesting.
So I would like to see a culture where the quiet folks can do a 9-to-5, then go home and enjoy church and family without missing out on key decisions and opportunities. If you want to go to a meetup, you can drink a lemonade without people making assumptions.
There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking.
The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well (more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing.
Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset. In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who partake and erodes beneficial social order.
> Come on, should we also have complimentary joints available? You know marijuana use can be linked to reduced stress and studies suggest it can be useful in treating depression! Please. This doesn't belong in the workplace!
Unless you're really, really bad at drinking, having a beer is not physically forcing others around you to drink. If you start smoking, then everyone else around you has to deal with the smoke. I'm told that using vaporisers removes the smoke aspect, but now you've got a cloud of THC laden steam which, whilst not as bad as a cloud of THC laden smoke, is still a pretty selfish thing to inflict on other people.
Snarky strawman time: I'm sure the author thought the average reader would, by dint of puritanism, be repulsed by people smoking weed at a conference.
I suggest using crack or heroin for reefermadnessed analogies like that next time. No, go nuts: Krokodil. Let the reader imagine people using krokodil at a conference.
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It's "unprofessional". Never do anything in your spare time that does not further your career and company.
As far as I can tell, this is not about alcohol, this is about culture.
Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the absurdly high drinking age.
Drinking alcohol <> getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people should feel excluded.
I've just realised: if the age of the stereotypical american tech worker is 23 or so, that means these people have only been able to drink for a couple of years.
That's a good point. In the UK people can buy alcohol at 18 or drink it at home or with a meal earlier than that. By 23 everyone is 5+ years into their "drinking career" and (mostly) know their limits. "Getting hammered" for the sake of it is kinda passe at that stage too.
If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British 19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.
Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking.
I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles.
And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people with your best poker face and laptop demo.
It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted for, the programmers are the mildest of the set.
I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about.
And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard.
I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything, and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in this perspective.
I think that our "grow up" attitude might contribute to more to the exclusion. What I mean is, saying "you need to change" isn't the best way to bring excluded people in. Even if we are right.
Very fair point. I'm not saying "grow up" here in a condescending way, as much as explaining my perspective once I did grow up and start seeing people's behavior in another light. But it does come off as exclusionary and condescending, sorry about that.
The irony is that by perpetuating stereotypes like "brogrammers", the author is actually encouraging a culture of exclusion.
The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait, I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that mean I'm a brogrammer?".
The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group (programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer should behave then you aren't one of us."
Drinking is everywhere. My father in law works in dental implants and he goes to conferences on cruise ships... which are all about drinking in between talks. You don't have to partake of course but there aren't many people who make that choice (he doesn't "get" drinking at all).
I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking after the day was over.
It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers. The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes.
A few observations: 1) this isn't discrimination but it can encourage self-selection into or out of the group; 2) If tech firms, or a segment of the tech industry as a larger entity (e.g., rails, node, etc.) promote themselves, recruit, and try to be cool by sponsoring a bunch of drinking events, they'll attract programmers who like drinking events, and that will become part of the culture of the company and/or industry, since that's what brought them together, what they bonded over, and what they have in common outside of work. 3) There are other (a)venues to facilitate socialization (ice cream, coffee, etc.) including things like pizza or bowling where alcohol can be a part of it, but isn't the main event. Just like drinking, no one thing is for everyone, but that's ok. Consider it a venn diagram, where some in the industry seem to be only filling one circle.
Discussing while having beers has been excellent source of new ideas for me. While it hampers the ability to think logically it makes thinking outside of the box easier. And it makes the conversation more fluid.
I, like so many others, am so unsocial when absolutely sober that completely alcohol-free events are actually really hard.
Maybe Ryan Duk should organise a "dry" conference, for those who share his dislike for alcohol and those who drink it. I'm sure it would be a massive success although, as an Irishman, it wouldn't be my cup of tea.
The author should probably lighten up, but I agree with the general sentiment.
If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.
I have not seen any of these issues at the meetups here in DC or the one conference I've been to (ng-conf). People drank some, sure (including me), but binge drinking wasn't on the order of agenda for most of us. Nobody was judged for not drinking either.
Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.
The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant, which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).