I appreciate that, I actually went back and forth on mentioning the specific model. It seemed relevant because of the case material (and dimensions of the trackpad/palm area), and I don't remember having the same issue with previous plastic case laptops.
I had the exact same issue on my 15" mbp, on the 13" rmpb I don't have the issue. It's is most noticeable with watches with metallic bands, but rubber bands also tend to get in the way.
Maybe because they have simple and straightforward names that it's reasonable to expect most people will understand. Whereas if you said "my Dell Latitude 3300" most people would have no specific mental image for that.
Like it or not, the simplicity of Apple's product line and naming scheme makes their product names more meaningful.
no it's the other way around. if people who own another brand of device would mention the name every other time, we'd have (or make sure to have) a good mental image for those as well.
Like a William Gibson novel.
I don't know what a "Dell Latitude 3300" looks like because its owners do not mention they own one when they talk about "their laptop". If they did, after a few mentions, I'd have gotten a clearer idea on the type of machine, or have looked it up.
there's nothing more meaningful about "MacBook Pro" than, say, "EeePC Seashell" (which is arguably an even more evocative name).
and especially among computer geeks who care for this kind of thing, adding a series number instead of some word, isn't a problem and actually helps.
Apple laptops have numbers too, right? It's easier for me, even because I don't keep track of all the different kinds of Macbooks out there, at least for iOS I can figure "higher number is newer". Just the term "Macbook Pro" merely tells me it's shiny, probably white or aluminium, expensive and owner is either from the US or in the graphic design/music industry.
Posted from my Asus EeePC 1215B "Seashell", with Linux Mint, hooked up to a Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" monitor, typed on a Microsoft Comfort Curv--ahh, sod it.
No, because even if users tried to do that, the panopoly of non-Apple PCs out there, and their regular name changes, would counfound any kind of traction.
Apple laptops don't have numbers in the last decade. There's been several generations of the "MacBook Pro". The screen size is a descriptor and not actually part of the product name.
The same effect is evident in cars: if I say "BMW 3-series" or "328i" you have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about, but if I say "Kia Cadenza"... and that's because BMW has maintained that brand for what, 30 years now?
Yes but precisely, people are never going to mention their exact laptop name because brands like Dell choose to produce 20 variations of each laptop they create, each one harder to remember than the precedent. Apple has such a little number of portable macs (two actually: air and pro) that everyone remembers it. And they also chose a simple way to tell the difference between each iteration: the production year, as well as the screen size, which are two criterias very understandable to everyone.
It's not about what people choose to say, it's about Apple's clever naming conventions.
Apple is more a fashion company than a tech company. Those who buy and use its products are primarily concerned with advertising the fact that they use Apple products - conspicuous consumption. It's no different from how Gucci or Prada owners make sure to prominently display the brand of their handbag when they are in public. It's a simple form of signaling your identity, that you belong to a particular group.
This is also why Apple's profit margins are sky high. Consumer electronics is an industry with razor thin margins, but with fashion, the sky is the limit (given that you can effectively manipulate the minds of consumers, which Apple is excellent at). An iDevice cannot be commoditized, no matter how hard Apple's competitors try.
> You don't think it has anything to do with their excellent track record of hardware design, software design, reliability and usability?
Of course. It has to do with Apple's branding of "hardware design, software design, reliability and usability".
Just like G-Star advertises their clothing as "raw", while their jeans are actually quite flimsy and rip or tear easily.
Sure, they look pretty and well-fitted. Just like I would recommend my grandmother an iPad because I know it's well-designed and she'd have less trouble using it.
> >It's no different from how Gucci or Prada owners make sure to prominently display the brand of their handbag when they are in public.
> Yes, because Dell and HP laptops are completely devoid of physical branding...
You're proving his point here: It's not like other brands of handbags (or shoes) are completely devoid of physical branding either. Yet it's not like their owners are even aware of its brand, half the time.
In this context I'd sooner compare Apple products to Nike shoes, rather than the fashion "I have money to spend" signalling Gucci/Prada handbags.
Come on, the evolution of "brands as lifestyle + identity" has been around for at least 30 years now. You should know a thing or two about how it works. It's not really a disputed theory.
And you can't seriously deny that Apple isn't fighting along in the Big Brand mindshare arena just as much as Coca-Cola, Nike, Red Bull and Calvin Klein, in a sense that Dell, Asus or Lenovo are very much not. A quick litmus-test is whether they have a significant brand-identity that can be separated from their products (sometimes even more prominent than their actual core product, especially in the case of Coca-Cola or Red Bull).
> >It's a simple form of signaling your identity, that you belong to a particular group.
> Or it's because Apple products let productive people be productive.
See what you just did? Put Apple product users in the group of "productive people being productive"? :) Would you ever say something as generic about a Lenovo laptop? (which has excellent hardware and lets productive people be very productive) That's because Apple is a brand identity, over just being a brand of laptops. As if they're charged with a kind of "soul".
You don't have to consider it a bad thing, but I think it's important to at least be aware of these very real differences, because they do influence the way people act, behave and feel about their stuff. And it's nothing new, and it's nothing you can or should prevent, everyone is affected by these ideas to some extent, which is again why it's so important to be aware of it. Just don't deny it.
Exactly! Discussions on HN (and elsewhere) have been full of Apple users bemoaning problems that, if they happened on Android, would be held up as proof that it was inherently crap. Because Apple have successfully branded themselves as the usable, well-designed option these issues get treated as a temporary aberration - even though from what I can tell they've always been the norm for Apple.
I know. In the tech field my macbook is embarrassingly generic.
It feels weird to know that it cost more than many people's cars, but if you work in the privileged person startup bubble it's a weak shibboleth, not a luxury item that draws attention.
I choose Apple because I want good hardware with a *nix operating system. End of story. Show me an alternative, and you'll pique my interest. In the meantime, you should keep your ridiculous comments about conspicuous consumption to yourself.
Goddamn this. I have been a linuxer all my life but getting older somehow really makes patching drivers all the time quite unattractive. Bought my first mac this year... good decision.
Amen. It was a bit of a compromise having to deal with mac ports or fink for so long, but since homebrew became so usable as a package manager a couple if years ago, the argument has only gotten stronger.
No, what's incredible is that they're simultaneously a tech company and a fashion company. Perhaps it would be most accurate to say they are a design company in the consumer electronics market. Calling them a "design-oriented company" is inclusive of their multiple facets, including usability, fashion, and performance.
The reason Apple laptops are so popular is hardly that they are a status symbol and more the fact that they're so damn comfortable to use. I agree about other Apple products, however.
People say (or said) the same about Nike shoes and Levis jeans. It's not the point. Yes they are high quality, but Wintermute wasn't commenting on that fact, the point is the brand identity of "Apple is high quality and comfortable to use", it's the first part where it says Apple Apple Apple.
I am wearing a pair of very cheap no-brand jeans, they are extremely durable and comfortable (the label also ironically reads "Unsigned", which I admit made me smile a bit, but it's not a brand, in a few years that store chain (Scapino) will have different labels, and nobody will notice one bit). I'm not going around saying "Unsigned has great durable comfy jeans"--also because they're not, extremely varying quality, you just have to try on at least 5 different ones that are ostensibly the same size (which they are also not). They're cheap though and this makes me very happy with them :)
When I say that Apple laptops are damn comfortable, it has nothing to do with the brand. I can't speak for other people though. If Sony were making these, I'd own a Sony. But the fact of the matter is that it is Apple that has the lion's share of the laptop market because they've got a killer combination of hardware and software(being a closed platform and all). They've sunk untold amounts of money into ergonomics, the "little things", and it's paid off with a superior laptop experience. If you ever sit on a couch with a laptop all day, you'd quickly notice the difference between an Apple laptop and most OEM offerings out there. That's not to say that some OEMs aren't getting pretty close though. I have my eye on the Lenovo X1 Carbon lineup, maybe next year they'll have something superior at a better price point.
I'll say it again; please advice me what non-Apple laptop to buy which can compete with my 11 inch Air. I tried many and all are more expensive than my 'status fashion Air' and they all feel/work like crap compared. Wobbly/shaky and expensive. But tell me what is better for the same price, I'll get one tomorrow and let's see if what kind of fashion we are talking about.
I quite like my vaio z 13" though they've stopped selling them now I believe. Higher spec than the best airs, lighter too and feels great to work on http://youtu.be/OWkG6wVWGds
I must say that my Dell XPS 13 is a pretty good machine for development. I can take it anywhere without any problems. Sure it is 13", but I can go below 13".
On the plus side, it has a Ubuntu logo on it instead of that crappy Windows logo.
I love how the X1 feels/looks, but 14 inch is too large. I find 13 inch actually on the big side. 10-12 inch for a laptop is what I consider perfect. But yes, good one; the X1 is a great machine. So we have one contender :)
I'm typing this on the top spec Yoga 2 Pro, it's amazing. The main complaints from reviewers were as follows;
- yellow tint on screen
- Flimsy hinge
- low battery life
- backlight bleed
I'll address them in order.
1. there was a marked discoloration when i saw pictures on the forums, and i almost returned it due to bing scared. When i got it, nothing. Absolutely nothing, though it looked a bit over saturated, which i kinda like on a non-workstation device.
2. The flimsy hinge is not a problem, end of story. Its stiffer than a MBA or MBP,m and only wobbles significantly if you tap it real hard.
3. Battery life is a problem, but if you're like me, i use it in multiple short spurts, coupled with a few long ones. It lasts all day, and while i do wish for a bit more, as for waht it is, it's good. Not great, but good.
4. No backlight bleed, nuff' said.
Furthermore i have found myself using the touchscreen far more than i anticipated. It's hands down, IMHO, the best laptop availible today thats an ultraportable. Go get one.
I was given a new Macbook Air for work. My primary history with good laptops is the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad lineup.
I don't parade around with the laptop: it's a desk job, with as few dashes over to the datacentre as possible. I work in a highly diverse Windows/Mac/Linux environment.
I've been very satisfied with it, except for the slight lack of ports. The speed, solid/useful construction, 16:10 screen, battery life, reasonable OS, et cetera, all suit me well. A Macbook Pro, which has lots more ports and a better screen besides, would likely satisfy me 100%.
The extremely similar Lenovo X1 Carbon that I also use in the office is not unfortunately quite as enjoyable, though it's equally utilitarian. The price-point is virtually identical, at least with how we specced them. I had had high hopes for it, because I was considering one to replace my X220.
At what point is fashion involved in this equation? Where is the bragging? Where is the fanboyism?
I'm not sure what's the informational value of absolute numbers in this case. It might come out with the same results, but both Microsoft and Samsung have a hell lot more to advertise.
One possible reason is fragmentation: Apple have a small number of ranges with persistent names, whereas their competitors have a lot of models and constantly invent new names for them. Even if everyone name-dropped their kit with equal frequency, a given Apple model would be mentioned far more frequently than any single model from another manufacturer.
It says "MacBook Pro" right under the screen so that's what I think of it as. I also know that the terms are common enough that people will know what I'm talking about (as opposed to my old Inspiron 8000).
I think that it wouldn't be a problem with a plastic laptop, so specifying that it was a MBP makes sense. "Aluminum laptop" might have sufficed, as well, but that sounds a little weird.
I have a Macbook Air that gets referred to as "the skinny computer" around the house. (as in, "I hate this f'ng skinny computer. Why won't it let me copy a f'ng photo???).
It would never occur to me to refer to it by its model name.
My wife has an iPhone 5s. As in, "Hey, toss me your phone. It has a better camera". Guess we're safe there too.
A Macbook Pro is made from aluminium. Most other laptops are plastic. Metal-on-metal scratching would be quite different to metal-on-plastic, so I'd say it's relevant.
That wasn't the exact laptop model, just a general laptop description. The Model name is usually something like, "MacBookPro11,1", and an exact model would be, "ME864xx/A","ME865xx/A", or "ME866xx/A".
I think it's reasonably to say, "Macbook Pro" as a generic reference. Nothing is really gained/lost by saying, "Mac Laptop". And, you do need to distinguish it's your unibody mac laptop, not a dell laptop, which likely doesn't mind being scratched by a watch that much. This is a Point for Dell! - My Latitude 2120 has been all over the planet in all sorts of rough conditions, doesn't have a visible scratch, unlike my macbook air - which is pretty ugly (but still working) shape after the same two years.
On the surface, I agree - but in my case, it's a behavior specific to that particular device.
I wear/wore a watch while typing on my chromebook, my Dell laptop, my Lenovo laptop, my old white macbook, and various external keyboards, but when I type on my macbook pro, the watch comes off almost immediately.
The watch clasp grating on the wide aluminum bezel quickly drives me to remove the watch.
It's relevant information for the comment. They'd otherwise have to describe the case material of the laptop. "Scratches the 'patterned aluminum finish' of my laptop," is a bit more verbose in conveying the same information.
idk, I make a clear distinction between laptops and macbooks myself; the last laptops I remember using are quite different from macbooks (OS, (perceived) speed/performance, form factor).
Try a NATO watchstrap. The buckle bit ends up sort of on the side of your wrist rather than right on the bottom. That how it works out on my tiny wrists anyway.
I have a Nato watchstrap but it scratches anyway. The buckle is more to the side than a normal strap, but it's still on the bottom of my wrist and still makes contact with the laptop. Maybe my wrists are even tinier than yours.
I actually take my Fitbit Flex off when I'm writing (typing) for extending periods of time on my Macbook Air. The edge of the Macbook presses into the rubber at just the right angle and annoys me enough I have to remove it. I don't know how this isn't more of a problem for all wrist-wearables, honestly.
When the band on my last Casio broke due to my taking it off and putting it back on so often, in order to type comfortably while either using a wrist rest or putting up with the increasingly large palm area on laptops... (Phfew! Time for a new sentence.) When that happened, I stopped wearing a watch.
Until the battery died, that Casio, sans wristband, served as a sort of pocket watch. Now, I just look at my phone -- when I don't already have a clock on-screen somewhere.
Aside: I'd prefer a URL that didn't necessitate dynamic content in order to get a basic idea of what the product is. Call me old-fashioned... or paranoid (exploits); take your pick.
Your wrist lies to the left / right of the track pad area. When you wear a watch or a fitness band, you are constantly rubbing those areas as you type.
He means that your wrists shouldn't be touching anything. They should be hovering a couple of centimetres above the flat area in front of the keyboard.
Nope. I haven't been able to wear a watch ever since I got the latest Macbook Pro. Even I wear one to work by mistake, the first thing I do is remove it. Maybe the keyboard is a bit deeper in the newer models?
You're not supposed to - but most of us do it. In theory, you're only suppose to rest your wrists downwards when not typing, because doing so takes them out a neutral position. I'm not saying you should change, just trying to discourage the notion that's a healthy habit. (http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/proper-sitting-posture-for-ty...)
I rest the bottom of my palms & the edge of my wrist. Maybe you're wearing your watch too loose and its sliding down your arm? My watch generally doesn't touch the top of the MBP 15" surface as i type.
I looked at the pix, I looked at the junk on my desk and compared my deskware and wrist vs the pix, and assuming I have a male model physique, that watch is a bit bigger than a sigg water bottle but a cm or so smaller than my large coffee (tea) cup. Its huge.
So... yeah, strap a couple pound weight to your arm, and until you bulk up, there's going to be some sagging by the end of the day.
I wore a watch in high school. Playing volleyball the summer after I graduated I went up for a block and came down minus the watch. When I showed up at college, there was a clock tower that chimed the quarter hour, and it turned out that was more than enough, so I never replaced the watch.
Now I've got a computer in front of me a majority of my waking hours, and a smartphone in my pocket for the times when I don't; _really_ no need for a watch.
The last time I wore a watch was when I realized I always took it off while using my computer and sort of the point where I had a cell phone with me at all times; of course, simultaneously I started developing RSI symptoms, :p.
Just because a strap has a buckle doesn't mean it will ever hit your computer. I wear a Timex Expedition with a leather and fabric strap, and it's almost impossible to make the buckle touch my Macbook because it's too high up on the inside of my wrist - my hand would have to be almost perpendicular to the keyboard, with the backside of my thumb rotated down towards the keys.
I don't usually work directly on my MBP, being of the one true religion (external keyboard/mouse/monitor), but when I do, the first is approximately how my left wrist normally rests, and the second is with my Pebble on, showing the buckle in contact with the MBP.
It was hard to get the angle right on the second picture, so the position of my wrist is slightly off, but you get the idea.
When actually typing (especially for more than a couple words, like I am now), my wrist isn't usually resting so heavily on the surface, but the buckle is still in contact with the laptop.
The scratching is annoying, as is the pressure on my wrist. This has been the case for every watch I've owned with several different straps, so I almost always take them off when using any laptop without an external keyboard.
At least in the position on the right, that's not good form. You can see the intent on the top of the wrist, which means you're not in a neutral position for typing. I can't tell what's up on the left.
Personally, I find my watch tends to sit above my wrist, so it's not over the palm rest at all.
I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that if I use "good form", I can't type for long before my arms fall off, like I'm aware that I never see anyone actually type in what is supposedly "good form" unless they're demonstrating what they claim you should do, but fail to do themselves.
In other words: This is how reality works. And here in reality, the buckle is annoying. Speculation as to its annoyance in an alternate reality is beside the point.
It's worth talking to an ergo specialist, but if you can't easily keep your wrists up it often means your broader setup isn't right - your chair is too low or your keyboard is too high (common on desks based on old designs.)
I've had carpal and nerve issues in the past, so I watch this a lot... generally you can drive the better habits simply by reconfiguring the work setup.
Been there, done that, sent the "specialist" on her way as soon as she started rambling about my aura. My issues went away with a switch to Dvorak years ago anyway.
But all of this is quite irrelevant when one is talking about the inherently non-ergonomic use of a laptop that only happens in meetings and hotel rooms.
If your ergo expert is talking about auras instead of measuring your dimensions and evaluating your posture, you need to find a real ergo expert. Even for ad-hoc use in meeting rooms and hotel rooms, a good expert can help you do a better job and protect your nerves. Anyone who works at a computer all day should probably go at least once a year, just like an annual physical.
